New H3D full frame!!!

[lightcreator]

I read the Lum.Landscape review of the H3 and agree that the execution of self obsolescence really does blow.

I am a second string market commercial photographer... no booz adds, or sexy models... lots of farmers, engineers, and open sky.

I couldn't and will not dream of spending that kinda cash on a H3 or Sinar/Rollie thing new.

I am making due with my used cobbled together Sinar system, and my Hassy 500's with my Refurb Aptus 17 back that I got this week.

If I need auto-focus I will use my Fuji S3 and in the future S5.

Loving the slow(er) lane.... hey I did photograph a nearly nude model two years ago for a swimwear issue spoof in a literary magazine.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

     
Well, it's good I was alway Mamiya RB / RZ II based and now have no medium format.  Strangely I always wanted a HASSY when in college but lucky to have met Mamiya along the way (shame it is NOT doing well with its digital outfit - the 22mp was interesting with a DSLR style body).  So without any HASSY lenses or bodies, I have NOT locked in.  I really enjoyed working with PhaseOne P45 back + Capture One.

My 5D and 1Ds II are fine - especially fast auto focusing and ability to blow up to 40 x 60" without many trace of digital (some photographers swear they can tell the difference between film and digital.  Just wait for the rumored 1ds iii with 22 mp FF sensor or 1d iii with 17 mp 1.3x sensor  with SOME super duper NEW Canon EF "XL" lenses.

[zzzone]

Do we know Hasselblad are to drop the H2?  I asked that question at Photokina and was assured by Hasselblad that it was still to be produced.

Steve

[lightcreator]

Do we know Hasselblad are to drop the H2?  I asked that question at Photokina and was assured by Hasselblad that it was still to be produced.

Steve
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81297\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Guess you just have to buy a s/h H1 or H2 or a few of them if you really got the DOSH or just move to CANON 1ds ii or rumored 1ds iii in DEC 2006 / JAN 2007.  

I personally think Canon is still the safest investment in terms of chip / lens and body combination.  

I print with an EPSON 9800 to 60 x 40" and the results are great from both 1ds ii and 5d files.  I also found archiving is a HUGE problem working with PhaseOne P45 - MASSIVE 39 MP which sometime is just plain stupid (you do notice a very subtle improvement from Canon FF but cost ratio and future upgrabilities are BAD issues now that HASSY decided to do a CLOSED architecture!!!

I personally loved the PhaseOne and Capture One 3.7.5 combination and H3D means I can't do that.  I found the HASSY software NOT as good as Capture One and the back NOT as great for high ISO like P30+ and P45+ just released.  Why would I have to be dictated by HASSY what back I used (H2D was OK but H3D with a CLOSED architecture I think NOT).  Lucky I love my CANON and only use PhaseOne at work.  

I guess HASSY will be dropping them soon???  I would be pis*ed off       if I am a HASSY user right now.  Luckily I got hooked with Mamiya RB / RZ II when in college (or also unlike they have sort off got problem moving to digital with the ZD).

Also I think the HCD lens meaning HC digital will NOT be compatible with H1 or H2 i.e. HCD 28mm that just released (more like the reverse situation to Canon's EF and EFs and Nikon's AF and AF DX).

HASSY is being greedy!  Watch out from SINAR / ROLLEI and LEAF 's new bodies in the near future.  Competition will be good.      

[michael]

"Do we know Hasselblad are to drop the H2?"

Hasselblad are being completely disingenuous about this. At the booth on the first two days of Photokina Hasselblad employees were stating catagorically that the H2 would be discontinued as soon as H3D production could be ramped up. (I have this recorded on video more than once).

The dealer community got up in arms, and at the press conference Christian Poulsen, the CEO, said that H2 production would continue "as long as there was demand". Right!

My guess is that the company intended to discontinue the H2, but were surprised by the vociferous dealer response and so back-peddled – at least verbally.

The real answer is now anyone's guess. If Hasselblad follows through with their new strategy (H3D as closed system) then they will likely discontinue the H2 in the near future. If on the other hand they listen to dealer and customer feedback and abandon this losing strategy, then we will hopefully continue to have a system that photographers can consider as a viable alternative.

Otherwise, we're left with just Mamiya and the upcoming Hy6 as platforms for medium format photography. We can only hope that Hasselblad management sees the light, or that there's a palace coup. Otherwise, Hasselblad RIP.

Michael

[Graham Mitchell]

Guess you just have to buy a s/h H1 or H2 or a few of them if you really got the DOSH or just move to CANON 1ds ii or rumored 1ds iii in DEC 2006 / JAN 2007.

I don't see the Canon as ever being a true substitute for a medium format camera. The larger sensor size and larger viewfinder, as well as waist-level finder options all make it a very different tool. Not to mention the superior MF lenses. I would still gladly choose a MF 22 MP system over a Canon 22 MP system.

Btw, the Rollei 6008 AF with Sinar back is also available now and is very competitive with the H2, and the Mamiya 645 or ZD systems also have a lot to offer. It is by no means a one-horse race.

[MarkKay]

I have been communicating with Paul Claesson who is a Technical Specialist  for the H System and Digital. He has been very helpful to me when there were some technical issues running my Aptus 65 and Hassy H2 and I  am appreciative.

This is what he told me via an email in response to my disappointment with the Photokina announcement  "There was alot of misunderstanding of  what the  H3D release means for the H2 system."

 I want to post his letter but the disclammer requests that the contents cannot be communicated elsewhere. I guess i need to respect that. However his specific point regarding the future of the H2 system was :
"First, Hasselblad still offers the H2 camera platform for photographers shooting film or utilizing a 3rd party digital back, this has not changed."  

This with the statement that there is misunderstanding of the H3D release makes one think that the H2 system will continue.. HOWEVER--- if you read the statement  carefully  it does not mean much related to the future of the H2 system.  His sentence reads that the H2 availability and system has not changed... That means today it is still here. The big question is whether or not it will change or be discontinued in the near future (e.g. tomorrow).  

THis is a note I got from a Hasselblad sales rep

Dr. Kay:

"I can understand that you may feel that Hasselblad is abandoning the H system as an open architecture system, nothing is further from the truth.

Our H1D, H2D, and now the H3D are strictly medium format DSLR products that we will offer.  Because our technology of manufacturing the front end (the camera body), we can create a much more powerful digital magazine.  Please keep an open mind and look at what we are doing as a whole for high end digital photography.

If you’d like to schedule a demonstration sometime in the future, please feel free to contact me."


Again, I am not sure what this means.  I suggest that if you are not happy about the decision you write to Hasselblad and let them know your concerns.

Mark

"Do we know Hasselblad are to drop the H2?"

Hasselblad are being completely ingenuious about this. At the booth on the first two days of Photokina Hasselblad employees were stating catagorically that the H2 would be discontinued as soon as H3D production could be ramped up. (I have this recorded on video more than once).

The dealer community got up in arms, and at the press conference Christian Poulsen, the CEO, said that H2 production would continue "as long as there was demand". Right!

My guess is that the company intended to discontinue the H2, but were surprised by the vociferous dealer response and so back-peddled – at least verbally.

The real answer is now anyone's guess. If Hasselblad follows through with their new strategy (H3D as closed system) then they will likely discontinue the H2 in the near future. If on the other hand they listen to dealer and customer feedback and abandon this losing strategy, then we will hopefully continue to have a system that photographers can consider as a viable alternative.

Otherwise, we're left with just Mamiya and the upcoming Hy6 as platforms for medium format photography. We can only hope that Hasselblad management sees the light, or that there's a palace coup. Otherwise, Hasselblad RIP.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[josayeruk]

"Do we know Hasselblad are to drop the H2?"

Hasselblad are being completely disingenuous about this. At the booth on the first two days of Photokina Hasselblad employees were stating catagorically that the H2 would be discontinued as soon as H3D production could be ramped up. (I have this recorded on video more than once).

The dealer community got up in arms, and at the press conference Christian Poulsen, the CEO, said that H2 production would continue "as long as there was demand". Right!


Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Are you sure you are not confusing this with the H2D?  

...and I don't understand why the H'3'D has caused so much controversy when at last Photokina I was looking at an H1D which was also a closed system???

Is the video footage part of your medium format video blog?

Jo S.

[eronald]

Are you sure you are not confusing this with the H2D? 

...and I don't understand why the H'3'D has caused so much controversy when at last Photokina I was looking at an H1D which was also a closed system???

Is the video footage part of your medium format video blog?

Jo S.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81367\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The CEO of Hasselblad announced they were not going to support (and maybe permit) thir daprty backs, starting from the H3D.

Edmund

[josayeruk]

The CEO of Hasselblad announced they were not going to support (and maybe permit) thir daprty backs, starting from the H3D.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81373\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Edmund,

This is incorrect.

The H1D and the H2D never supported third party backs either.  The H1 existed while the H1D and was being sold - that wasn't dropped.  Why do you think this situation is any different?

The H3D, to me, appears to be a development of the H2D - which was also a system which did not support third party backs.

Jo s.

[michael]

Jo,

This is a quibble argument.

There is no H3, just the H3D. That's the whole point.

No migration path for those currently owning or wishing to own a body which can use the new generation of lenses. And, if the company's current strategy remains unchanged, the H2 will become history sooner rather than later.

The reality is that Hasselblad has huge debt, and revenue from their camera offerings doesn't meet their cash flow needs to service this debt. Only selling backs is a high enough margin business, and their backs currently only have a tiny market share compared to Phase and Leaf.

Ergo, the need to lock out competative backs and force customers to buy Hassy backs if they want a Hassy camera and lenses.

Makes sense on the surface, if you're a bean counter, but is to my mind it's a doomed strategy from a marketing point of view.

Michael

[hubell]

Jo,

The reality is that Hasselblad has huge debt, and revenue from their camera offerings doesn't meet their cash flow needs to service this debt. Only selling backs is a high enough margin business, and their backs currently only have a tiny market share compared to Phase and Leaf.

Ergo, the need to lock out competative backs and force customers to buy Hassy backs if they want a Hassy camera and lenses.

Makes sense on the surface, if you're a bean counter, but is to my mind it's a doomed strategy from a marketing point of view.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81388\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you are right, Michael, then Hasselblad had two choices. Bankruptcy or the H3D. I think that's a pretty easy decision. If their backs are truly competitive, and unfortunately no one who visits this site seems to know(or wants to know), then their decision with their H3D will prove correct.

[josayeruk]

If you are right, Michael, then Hasselblad had two choices. Bankruptcy or the H3D. I think that's a pretty easy decision. If their backs are truly competitive, and unfortunately no one who visits this site seems to know(or wants to know), then their decision with their H3D will prove correct.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81393\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Exactly.  

Would we prefer to see Hasselblad go out of business or survive?

I think it would be the latter which would make 'Victor Hasselblad turn in his grave'....

[josayeruk]

Jo,

This is a quibble argument.

There is no H3, just the H3D. That's the whole point.

No migration path for those currently owning or wishing to own a body which can use the new generation of lenses. And, if the company's current strategy remains unchanged, the H2 will become history sooner rather than later.

The reality is that Hasselblad has huge debt, and revenue from their camera offerings doesn't meet their cash flow needs to service this debt. Only selling backs is a high enough margin business, and their backs currently only have a tiny market share compared to Phase and Leaf.

Ergo, the need to lock out competative backs and force customers to buy Hassy backs if they want a Hassy camera and lenses.

Makes sense on the surface, if you're a bean counter, but is to my mind it's a doomed strategy from a marketing point of view.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81388\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Michael,

There is a lot of speculation there without any hard fact on your part.

Do you know how many H2 bodies are sold per year?  I don't but if you do a rough scribble in your head there is an awful lot of Leaf / Phase backs out there on this platform.  I would assume with every H2 body there would also be a couple of lenses which = revenue for a company with "huge debt".

Doesn't it?

Crikey, somebody must have really upset you in Hasselblad at a point in time.

Would you be quite so upset if it was Phase One who had merged with Hasselblad?  Would you be championing the cause for Imacon owners?

...thought not.    

Jo. x

[lightcreator]

Exactly. 

Would we prefer to see Hasselblad go out of business or survive?

I think it would be the latter which would make 'Victor Hasselblad turn in his grave'....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81394\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think H3D architecture might be a problem because it is a closed HASSY system that does not seem to allow other backs to fit it like PhaseOne - probably the most popular 22mp and 39mp back because of bthe large Capture One user base.  

I though don't think HASSY will go as far as BANKRUPTCY.  I don't think VICTOR would like that even though he is dead.    

[michael]

Would we prefer to see Hasselblad go out of business or survive?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81394\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The answer is obvious, otherwise why would I be so concerned about this issue?

But, just because the closed system approach is the one that Poulsen has chosen as a survival strategy doesn't make it the best or only strategy available. I can imagine several that have reasonable chances for success and which don't alienate current or potential customers the way their current one does.

Michael

[howiesmith]

The answer is obvious, otherwise why would I be so concerned about this issue?

But, just because the closed system approach is the one that Poulsen has chosen as a survival strategy doesn't make it the best or only strategy available. I can imagine several that have reasonable chances for success and which don't alienate current or potential customers the way their current one does.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81398\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I bought a Hasselblad system over 20 years ago.  It has been "updated" several times since then.  But:

1)  The camera system I bought then, while obsolete by many standards, is still just as good as it was then.  If I was happy then, why can't I be happy now?

2) I can buy new gear (update) that fits the obsolete system to make it pretty modern, if I wanted or needed to.  I like the idea that Hasselblad, while introducing new systems, has not abandon the older systems and users.

It would be a shame to see them go, but they are a business and need to make a fair profit (return on their investment).  That could price them out the market, so be it, but a shame.

[michael]

"There is a lot of speculation there without any hard fact on your part."

Regretably I am not in a position to be able to share publicly certain information. But, knowing what I do, I am confident of my statements, otherwise I wouldn't make them here.

"Crikey, somebody must have really upset you in Hasselblad at a point in time"

Yes, indeed they did. It was a few weeks ago at Photokina when the CEO announced their current business strategy. Prior to that I had no beef whatsoever with the company. I own their products and think very highly of them. Also, I was treated very well by them when one of their brand-new lenses failed catastrophically while I was on location in Africa earlier this year.

My problem isn't with the products. My problem is with their new foolhardy business strategy.

And I'm not alone. Their entire dealer network is deeply concerned about it as well. Speak to a few dealership owner/managers to see what I mean.

Michael

[larryg]

"I bought a Hasselblad system over 20 years ago. It has been "updated" several times since then. But:

1) The camera system I bought then, while obsolete by many standards, is still just as good as it was then. If I was happy then, why can't I be happy now?

2) I can buy new gear (update) that fits the obsolete system to make it pretty modern, if I wanted or needed to. I like the idea that Hasselblad, while introducing new systems, has not abandon the older systems and users."

I too have had Hasselblad systems for many years, but I believe the latest offering is departure from your points.  
With previous Hasselblad systems you could always buy new lenses or even use the older lenses etc.   With Canon (assuming L glass) I kept my lenses from the film bodies and use them fine on the digital body.  I didn't have to replace the entire system to upgrade to something newer.

With the HD3  (if I understand correctly) system  you cannot use H2 or H3 lenses or backs but rather have to reinvest in new lenses, at least to maximize the new capabilities and features.  

People who sold other systems to jump on the Hasselblad bandwagon, imo, are being left in the dust.  I had not yet jumped back to Hasselblad and now I will wait and see what shakes out.  Does not promote brand loyalty for Hasselblad.

[pprdigital]

The reality is that Hasselblad has huge debt, and revenue from their camera offerings doesn't meet their cash flow needs to service this debt. Only selling backs is a high enough margin business, and their backs currently only have a tiny market share compared to Phase and Leaf.

Ergo, the need to lock out competative backs and force customers to buy Hassy backs if they want a Hassy camera and lenses.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81388\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Michael:

This is an irresponsible statement on your part. What does that mean, "huge debt"? Every company has assets and liabilities. The ratio of debt to asset is a much more revealing statistic. Saying a company has huge debt is a meaningless statement. Or are you trying to say that they're not making money? Because whatever the case may be, the fact is that Hasselblad is a profitable company. Within a year of the Hasselblad/Imacon merger, Hasselblad became a profitable company again, after being un-profitable in the latter years of the film days. Imacon had been profitable for most of it's existence, which is more than you can say for some of it's competitors.

Obviously, revenues from film camera sales do not meet the needs of any medium format manufacturers. That's why - hello? - most of them are out of business. Regardless of what you call "huge debt", and please, by all means expound on this, the sale of film-based camera/lenses is not a successful business model. Who would have thought?

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com

[zzzone]

Personally this a big problem.  As have stated before I am just about to invest in probably a Phase or Leaf DB.  My prime objective is using either on a Cambo or Horsemann body.  But what mount do I go for as I would then purchase the 645 system to go with that choice.  The Mamiya would be fine but I had decided to go for the H2 for its superior AF and viewfinder.

I am very pleased with my 1Ds11 and 5D but the DB purchase is for my architectural work. However I know that I am going to like the quality of the DB file and want to use this more and more, particularly after having made such a significant purchase.

My earlier contribution recalled the comment I received from Hasselblad at Photokina that the H2 would continue to be produced, unfortunately the additional comment "whilst there is demand for the product" or something like that was added which I didn't really think about too much at the time.  Reading between the lines of what Michael knows but is not allowed to say, makes me question my investment in any Hasselblad product.

So where does that leave me?  Commercially I cannot wait for the Hy6.  Unless that is it will take an H or Mamiya mount back when it eventually comes on the market?

An earlier earlier (!) contribution of mine refered to the profitability of some of the MF companies.  I was amazed that Hasselblad are losing so much money as stated above.  Can anyone let me know how well the likes of Phase, Leaf, Mamiya etc etc are doing, not specifically just broad brush very well, ok, nigh on bankrupt etc etc.  That would be interesting.

Regards Steve