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Author Topic: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?  (Read 210466 times)

AlterEgo

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #520 on: June 23, 2016, 05:45:15 pm »

Yes.

Medium format is much more about deliberation, preparation, setup, and so forth. Although this camera is small for MF, it's not a generalist camera, it's not optimal for conventional sports / action photography.


No, you are trying essentially to switch the subject here... reread what was written about MF dSLM = " Is it light and compact? Does it handle well? Is the menu system simple and intuitive? Do I enjoy using it as a tool? The second relates to the lenses. Are they relatively small and compact and optically excellent? " and how these, each and every question is not applicable to FF, APS-C, m43 dSLM cameras...

why do you think that for example m43 camera must be big & heavy, handle poorly, have complex and un-intuitive menu system, be not enjoyable in use as a tool and have poor optics which is relatively big & heavy  ;D ?

« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 05:49:36 pm by AlterEgo »
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Williamson Images

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #521 on: June 23, 2016, 05:57:16 pm »

I think it looks like a great camera.  I loved the Mamiya 7 I shot with film.  It was near perfect for landscape.  Love the leaf shutter lenses.  Will have to try out the evf.

The light weight travel side of life is what most interests me.

Robb
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hexx

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #522 on: June 23, 2016, 05:57:39 pm »

If Fuji comes out with a MF mirrorless, I think it will have a richer feature set, lower price and satisfy a broader audience. It will probably have that focal plane shutter as many of us want. However I don't think this means Hasselblad has made it wrong with the X1D, what they should be doing with their capacity is a simple sexy camera with excellent optics and build quality, so far that looks good. Hasselblad is Hasselblad, Fuji is Fuji, Leica is Leica, Sony is Sony. Don't expect them to make the same products.

When I see a new camera like this I mostly think is this camera right for this brand and their market? What would I do in their shoes? Have they made the right trade-offs?

I think the discussion then becomes more interesting than approaching a new camera like "if I personally want it, it's great, otherwise it's crap".

if, and let's be honest it's an IF, Fuji releases a MFML camera they will probably do the same stuff as they did with X100 and X-Pro1 (former owner of both) will be just enough for market and just a bit more than what competitor offers. in other words, not much ;)
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Mousecop

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #523 on: June 23, 2016, 06:47:43 pm »

No, you are trying essentially to switch the subject here...
Or, not.

Edmund suggested the X1D is "crippled," in a post that suggested he didn't understand how 35mm and MF traditionally (and still do) differ.

So, when you asked whether the expectations were different, for different formats? I answered yes. Because they are. ;)
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NickT

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #524 on: June 23, 2016, 06:56:43 pm »

Yes I agree
I'm not expecting an X1D to perform like my 810, I'm wanting it to perform like a lighter version of my H6D.
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Mousecop

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #525 on: June 23, 2016, 07:10:33 pm »

If Fuji comes out with a MF mirrorless, I think it will have a richer feature set, lower price and satisfy a broader audience.

Yeah, I dunno. Historically, they made a lot of fixed-lens MF rangefinders, and one really weird system camera (the 6x8). None of these were exactly cheap, or chock full of features.

It might be cheaper, but we are talking about an expensive sensor in a low-volume camera. The market may be small enough that it's difficult for the economies of scale to kick in.


Quote
It will probably have that focal plane shutter as many of us want.

I really don't see why people are so obsessed with this.

Lots of MF cameras -- including many of the Fuji MFs -- used leaf shutters. They're quieter, reduce vibration, flash sync at higher speeds, reduce the flange distance, make a slimmer body, and make it compatible with H lenses. It might also be possible to adapt vintage MF lenses on the new bodies.

And of course, they almost certainly want you to buy their lenses, and not just for optimal performance. ;)
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #526 on: June 23, 2016, 07:17:42 pm »

Or, not.

Edmund suggested the X1D is "crippled," in a post that suggested he didn't understand how 35mm and MF traditionally (and still do) differ.

So, when you asked whether the expectations were different, for different formats? I answered yes. Because they are. ;)

Traditionally? Traditionally MF has a better viewfinder than 35mm. At least my Hassy 500C, my russian clone and my Phamiya all had nice large viewfinder images. When you pay $8K for a body, you asssume your middle-aged eyes will get at least the same image as when you buy a $2K Sony A7II or Olympus 4/3.

This thing is intentionnally sub-specced, so it can be "upgraded" later when the H series gets retired ot made mirrorless.

Edmund



« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 07:44:56 pm by eronald »
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #527 on: June 23, 2016, 07:19:35 pm »

Yeah, I dunno. Historically, they made a lot of fixed-lens MF rangefinders, and one really weird system camera (the 6x8). None of these were exactly cheap, or chock full of features.

It might be cheaper, but we are talking about an expensive sensor in a low-volume camera. The market may be small enough that it's difficult for the economies of scale to kick in.


I really don't see why people are so obsessed with this.

Lots of MF cameras -- including many of the Fuji MFs -- used leaf shutters. They're quieter, reduce vibration, flash sync at higher speeds, reduce the flange distance, make a slimmer body, and make it compatible with H lenses. It might also be possible to adapt vintage MF lenses on the new bodies.

And of course, they almost certainly want you to buy their lenses, and not just for optimal performance. ;)

Leaf shutter is fine if one can adapt old lenses thanks to electronic shutter.

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #528 on: June 23, 2016, 07:56:08 pm »

TWhen you pay $8K for a body, you asssume your middle-aged eyes will get at least the same image as when you buy a $2K Sony A7II or Olympus 4/3.

Which you will, the specs of the X1D EVF are identical to those of the a7rII.

The only camera on the market with a better EVF is the Leica SL.

Cheers,
Bernard

siddhaarta

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #529 on: June 23, 2016, 08:58:33 pm »


The only camera on the market with a better EVF is the Leica SL.


Resolution-wise, there is also the Leica Q with 3,6 MP …. as Epson started mass production of their (Leica SL) EVF panels, I assume, it will be pretty standard at the end of the year.

The 2,3 MP EVFs are o.k, in the sense that you might get things done and, no doubt, there are a lot of advantages … but I feel a kind of aversion looking through them (using my RX1 and Olympus OM-D). Sure some people love them. The Leica S optical viewfinder, on the other hand, is a revelation, and makes shooting a joy.

Same holds for the LCD screen, evaluating focus at 100% with 0,9 MP is possible, but really no fun.

You may call this crippled (to offer something new in the X2D), or a business decision, to make the camera a little bit cheaper, but in my opinion its shooting into the own foot ...

« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 09:06:08 pm by siddhaarta »
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Mousecop

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #530 on: June 23, 2016, 09:03:13 pm »

Traditionally? Traditionally MF has a better viewfinder than 35mm.

I wish you'd told that to Yashica 30 years ago. :D

I also have to say, as much as I liked W/L finders, it's a stretch to say they were better than 35mm SLR finders.


Quote
At least my Hassy 500C, my russian clone and my Phamiya all had nice large viewfinder images.

Yes, was it about the same size as... oh, I dunno... a 3" LCD? :D

Nor is a 2.36mp EVF a total disaster. That's the same as in my Pen-F, which looks pretty good.


Quote
This thing is intentionnally sub-specced, so it can be "upgraded" later when the H series gets retired ot made mirrorless.
Or:

It isn't crippled. It's not intended to replace studio cameras 4 times its price. (If a mirrorless MF replaces the current SLRs, it'll be a very different form factor.) It's a relatively light-weight MF camera you can take into the field, and might be useful to serious photographers who want a larger sensor in a more portable body.

The X1D isn't intended to be an A7RII with a bigger sensor. It's more like a Fuji 645 or Mamiya 7.
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #531 on: June 23, 2016, 09:12:28 pm »

Mousecop, with respect, on the 6x6 slrs some of us had prism finders, and even my Mamiya 645DII had a decent finder image. The H finder is also decent and the same can be said of the XF.

Edmund

I wish you'd told that to Yashica 30 years ago. :D

I also have to say, as much as I liked W/L finders, it's a stretch to say they were better than 35mm SLR finders.


Yes, was it about the same size as... oh, I dunno... a 3" LCD? :D

Nor is a 2.36mp EVF a total disaster. That's the same as in my Pen-F, which looks pretty good.

Or:

It isn't crippled. It's not intended to replace studio cameras 4 times its price. (If a mirrorless MF replaces the current SLRs, it'll be a very different form factor.) It's a relatively light-weight MF camera you can take into the field, and might be useful to serious photographers who want a larger sensor in a more portable body.

The X1D isn't intended to be an A7RII with a bigger sensor. It's more like a Fuji 645 or Mamiya 7.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #532 on: June 24, 2016, 01:31:01 am »

You may call this crippled (to offer something new in the X2D), or a business decision, to make the camera a little bit cheaper, but in my opinion its shooting into the own foot ...

Product planning and feature selection is something all companies do as part of their design process, but I would be surprised if Hassy had taken the risk to under-specify on purpose such an important product for their future. I don't think you can do that for a new product category. You do the very best you can with available technology to hit your core KPIs targets on what you identify as the most important features of your product for the target audience, and they you find ways to minimze the cost while still doing this.

Odds are that the choice of the EVF was related to other technological constraints such as the live view feed through put of the Sony 50mp sensor.

Cheers,
Bernard

hasselbladfan

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #533 on: June 24, 2016, 03:46:21 am »

Some more info is coming through :

Finally, the early prototype only had one central AF point, with a Hasselblad representative telling me that more selectable points will be available on the shipping camera.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #534 on: June 24, 2016, 04:22:08 am »

Mousecop, with respect, on the 6x6 slrs some of us had prism finders, and even my Mamiya 645DII had a decent finder image. The H finder is also decent and the same can be said of the XF.

Edmund
I have got a Voigtlander 6x9 like the one below:


It actually has two finders, one for framing and one for focusing. I find that the ergonomy and viewing pleasure of both is quite bad.

It is an interesting camera though, for nostalgic and personal reasons.

-h
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #535 on: June 24, 2016, 04:59:41 am »

Finally, the early prototype only had one central AF point, with a Hasselblad representative telling me that more selectable points will be available on the shipping camera.

Good news, thanks!

cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #536 on: June 24, 2016, 05:37:20 am »

I have got a Voigtlander 6x9 like the one below:


It actually has two finders, one for framing and one for focusing. I find that the ergonomy and viewing pleasure of both is quite bad.

It is an interesting camera though, for nostalgic and personal reasons.

-h

Yes, I have a Super Ikonta which a camera shop *gave* me; some of these cameras are superb picture takers - the school photographer when I was a kid used one for all the group pix.

I just wish I could get a digital Plaubel Makina, the ideal traveller's "pocket"  landscape camera - for me.

Edmund
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Rob C

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #537 on: June 24, 2016, 06:18:12 am »

Strikes me as slightly surreal to make comparisons betweem 135 format and amost any MF format cameras.

In film days you chose the format to suit the job; today, probably because of the very high costs involved, people might feel obliged to try to force the same out of both formats - it's a bit unreal, and a distorted practical decision.

135 was mainly used as a fast method of working, very often hand-held, whereas MF almost always required a tripod, if only to allow one to hold it steady enough to find focus and get the framing right. SLR MF cameras had heavy mirrors that induced shake and, worse, some also incorporated focal plane shutters that provided yet another layer of despair on top of the mirror problem. I owned both types. A Pentax 67 ll was never a big Nikon. Unfortunately.

Folks drool about the Mamiya 67 rangefinder one; I tried one in a shop and put it down almost at once. The viewfinder was a bad joke. Every bit as much guesswork as the Leica M cameras were. For some people, having a bit more or less of the subject on the frame might not mean too much; for many other pro users accuracy was very important, the one reason I never bought into Leica's R cameras, despite loving their look and their lenses: the finder offered a less-than-comparable coverage when up against Nikon's F, F2, F3 and F4 bodies.

Now, LV may be a very good thing insofar as accurate framing goes, but it's not a viewing method I'd chose for any 135 format work. I've used it with my own Nikon and in reality, found it to be as difficult to come to a decision regarding fine focus as I always face using the viewfinder screen. Digital offers many advantages, but good viewfinders don't seem to come as part of the digital 135 format package. They need to introduce a new idea: let's call it something revolutionary - a split-image screen! In fact, if you are going to be using a 135 format camera with LV switched into play, you would really be better off doing the same thing on MF instead, which you probably would have chosen to do in the first place, had money not been part of the considerable consideration!

Yes, the new 'blad is a very pretty machine, but when it comes down to paying for such an item, I think it requires to be more than that. People hold it up as being great for landscape; well, I'm not a landscape aficionado, but even with the limited work I have done in that province I realise the requirement for camera movements to be important; hell, even on 135 format it helps, if only to get some rise or fall!

I suppose that in the end, it will be just another option designed to fit a particular pocket. For Hassy's sake, let's hope there are enough of them.

As a footnote: yesterday I went into the 'blad website and looked at their other cameras; one had a video showing a guy sitting at a desk in front of a window, an old 500 Series in front of him, which he plays with (I guess he's supposed to be representing a designer making the future)... ironically, that old one was the one I would have back before any of the replacements. I wonder if Hassy saw the irony - or the danger.

Rob C

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #538 on: June 24, 2016, 06:19:51 am »

Yes, I have a Super Ikonta which a camera shop *gave* me; some of these cameras are superb picture takers - the school photographer when I was a kid used one for all the group pix.

I just wish I could get a digital Plaubel Makina, the ideal traveller's "pocket"  landscape camera - for me.

Edmund

Good company: Helmut Newton made good use of Plaubel too. But then he had big 'pockets'.

Rob

eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #539 on: June 24, 2016, 07:26:03 am »

Rob, really, do you honestly think folk here buy cameras because they're pretty. You must have a very low opinion of your fellow contributors.

If people here bought cameras for image quality vs. price, we would see 3x as many Pentax users.
Photographers are as much creatures of fashion as creators of fashion.


Edmund
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