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Author Topic: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?  (Read 77139 times)

eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #160 on: April 16, 2016, 10:20:46 pm »

is there even such a thing as an h4d60 body or an h4d40 body?

There is no such thing as "being incorrect" when one doesn't post a fact, Using phrases like "there is a possibility..." and "it could be..." it automatically means that one posts a ...possibility. So, please be careful on how you refer to people...  ;)

EDIT: Hence, I have to repeat the question (on which the possibility refers in the same statement - because you cropped it off):

 "Please do! (reproduce the findings) as it is opposite to manufacturer's claiming... It is (obviously) important for customers to know what is compatible and what is not when they are asked to invest a fortune on equipment... By the WAY... It would also be important for one to check if the cross-exchange complicity of H3/H3II & H4 backs, applies for different sizes of backs (which I doubt) rather than just checking if an H3D31 also works on an H4-40 body (which I suspect it should). You see... there is a strong possibility that the body can recognise a same image area size back (and thus correct for it for lens issues) but it could be that it doesn't recognise a different image area size back because it is "tuned" to only recognise (and apply corrections for) a specific image area size...
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #161 on: April 16, 2016, 11:46:36 pm »

So this page is wrong then?
https://captureintegration.com/hasselblad-h5x-compatibility-and-usage/

and this one ?

http://www.hasselblad.com/medium-format/h5x


Well, like I said, it doesn't mean we never make an error. And that may be the case here. The actual basis for this compatibility testing was that we found ourselves in a position of owning numerous orphaned H3D/H4D camera bodies. And we wanted to be sure if someone wanted to purchase them, of what would work on them and what would not. The H4X and H5X bodies were added to the mix just to cover all Hasselblad bodies. But I do definitely know that I tried every combination as stated in my chart with the results shown. Perhaps there is a firmware required for either the digital back or body - or perhaps not. At any rate, I'll double check this, since you reminded me of the stated function of the H5X also being a backup for an H5D (and advertised as such by Hasselblad with their product release also published on our website). Thanks for going the extra mile to find not just Hasselblad's publishing, but also for finding that same publishing on our website. I'm close to assuming I'm wrong on that particular combination, but again, I'll double check it, so there is some proof in the pudding one way or the other.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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landscapephoto

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #162 on: April 17, 2016, 02:56:00 am »

Could you provide some links?

That is difficult. I simply check Ebay regularly, but Ebay does not keep old transactions.

1500 Euro is now the standard price for the H3D31.

That is a bit less than what I see on Ebay.

But generally we agree: used H are quite affordable, even if I think they are a bit less affordable than you think.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #163 on: April 17, 2016, 03:40:41 am »


Well, like I said, it doesn't mean we never make an error.  I'm close to assuming I'm wrong on that particular combination, but again, I'll double check it, so there is some proof in the pudding one way or the other.
Steve Hendrix/CI

Thank you, please be assured I am not point scoring here just interested in the facts, still on H1 so if a bargain pops up the P45+ may get a new home. I referenced your own site as I do find it a useful resource as I am sure others do.

Unlike Edmund though I wonder if only a small "correction" in prices will occur as Hasselblad have a generous floor for trade up. It will be the rental fleet I suppose but how large is that these days and will they just add the "new" lenses or swop those out, that could be more interesting?


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Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #164 on: April 17, 2016, 03:47:03 am »

That is difficult. I simply check Ebay regularly, but Ebay does not keep old transactions.

That is a bit less than what I see on Ebay.

But generally we agree: used H are quite affordable, even if I think they are a bit less affordable than you think.

I don't know how long for but E-bay does hold completed transactions but you have to be registered and logged in to see them.

ProCentre UK has H3D31 @ 1395 and 1495 Uk pounds = 1750 Euros Ex VAT, but you are getting some dealer benefit such as a warranty.
http://www.procentre.co.uk/sales-secondhand-medium-format-digital.php

A near equivalent in price and an interesting choice is a H5D40 = price(ish) H4D50 but beyond my league.

And while we are price it is interesting how low the CFV back have gone I would have thought given the market size of bodies the floor would have been higher, does this show how limited the digital MF market is or did they sell so many it is supply and demand?


« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 03:51:34 am by Chris Livsey »
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Christoph B.

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #165 on: April 17, 2016, 06:41:41 am »

The H4x and H5x are compatible with third party digital backs. It is sold to replace the old H1 that people still used with the P1 and Leaf backs.

It does not need adaptable firmware, just as the H1 does not need adaptable firmware.


Yes, they are compatible, but if I don't think Hasselblad was talking about 3rd party backs. To me they were talking about their own backs, which are all compatible. Hasselblad could hardly claim that all 3rd party backs are compatible without checking each and every one of them. And I doubt very much that they did that...
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Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #166 on: April 17, 2016, 06:50:18 am »


 And I doubt very much that they did that...
\

"Digital Compatibility All Hasselblad H5D, ixpress, CF and CFH digital backs. 3rd party backs that were compatible with the H1/H2 cameras"

Seems comprehensive to me as I am not aware of any 3rd party back H fit that did not work on a H1, but of course I could be wrong, although it would be illogical for a 3rd party back maker to produce a H fit that didn't work on a body it was made for?
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Christoph B.

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #167 on: April 17, 2016, 07:24:13 am »

Not according to Steve Hendrix from CI - on page 7 he attached a compatibility list of DB and H-cameras.

Also your quote is not from Hasselblad and a few lines below it says:
Quote
This is the big one: The H5X is compatible with the H5D backs, as well as all Ixpress, CF, CFH, and all digital backs compatible with the H1 and H2 cameras. Specifically, this means all Phase One P and P+ backs are compatible, as well as all IQ1 and IQ2 backs. The Leaf Credo 40, 50, 60, and 80 backs are all compatible, but only original Leaf Aptus backs will work with the H5X. The Leaf Aptus S and Leaf Aptus-II backs will not work with the H5X due to “parts of the communication from the digital back not being within specification, causing a fault condition and a lock-up of the camera body and digital back” according to Hasselblad. We do not expect this to be resolved by Leaf, as this issue existed with the H4X as well. As an aside, all film backs (such as the HM 16-32 and HMi-100) will work with the H5X.
( https://captureintegration.com/hasselblad-h5x-compatibility-and-usage/ )

To me there's still a lot of confusion out there and some quite contradictory messages from various sources. But most of the backs are compatible.
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #168 on: April 17, 2016, 07:56:43 am »

Not according to Steve Hendrix from CI - on page 7 he attached a compatibility list of DB and H-cameras.

Also your quote is not from Hasselblad and a few lines below it says:  ( https://captureintegration.com/hasselblad-h5x-compatibility-and-usage/ )

To me there's still a lot of confusion out there and some quite contradictory messages from various sources. But most of the backs are compatible.

Yes... The official position of Hasselblad is that all backs that would work with H1/H2/H2F (no matter if they are Hasselblad/Imacon or third party) as well as film backs, will work on the H4X and H5X. The difference (according to Hasselblad) is that with the H5X, H5 and later backs (meaning the new H6D swell) of the Hasselblad cameras will also work on it, while they couldn't with the H4X... The problem with earlier Leaf backs (other than the Credo series that will also work) is -according to Hassy- with Leaf, as they are given the interface but they don't apply it on their earlier backs.

Other than that, I've seen reports from users that H3II & H4 backs are interchangeable between the respective cameras, but Hasselblad has never confirmed that officially... Note that according to Hasselblad, no H camera back will work with the H4X, the H5 and later H backs will work with the H5X only (but not the H3/H3II/H4 backs).
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Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #169 on: April 17, 2016, 09:03:29 am »

Not according to Steve Hendrix from CI - on page 7 he attached a compatibility list of DB and H-cameras.

Also your quote is not from Hasselblad and a few lines below it says:  ( https://captureintegration.com/hasselblad-h5x-compatibility-and-usage/ )

My quote is taken directly from Hasselblad:

http://www.hasselblad.com/medium-format/h5x
Under the drop down Specs. Tab.

I'm sorry but Hasselblad make the cameras and I suspect Steve Hendrix will be back soon reporting the error, maybe the back/body combination tested had poor contacts for example.
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landscapephoto

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #170 on: April 17, 2016, 09:13:46 am »

May I suggest a corrected version of the pdf? I added the H3D backs and used bold for what the info one can find directly on the Hasselblad site. The information should still be verified, but the pdf is a start...
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AreBee

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #171 on: April 17, 2016, 10:08:55 am »

Theodoros,

Quote
There is no such thing as "being incorrect" when one doesn't post a fact, Using phrases like "there is a possibility..." and "it could be..." it automatically means that one posts a ...possibility.

You did not simply post a possibility - you posted a probability:

Quote
...there is a strong possibility that...

If the likelihood of an outcome is small then asserting that there is a "strong possibility" of the outcome is incorrect.



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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #172 on: April 17, 2016, 10:57:50 am »

Theodoros,

You did not simply post a possibility - you posted a probability:



That there is no "this is incorrect" when one doesn't post a fact, stays... whether a possibility or a probability... "there is a strong possibility that..." is both a possibility and a probability as one would mean exactly the same if it was "it is probable that"...

If the likelihood of an outcome is small then asserting that there is a "strong possibility" of the outcome is incorrect.

Sorry... it doesn't work like that with the logic science (according to Aristoteles), it simply means that one that doesn't use the system and thus has no way to confirm the fact, he addresses to others that do, as to ask them if that is the case (the statement "it might be that same size sensors are interchangeable between them, but the ones that are of different size are not" (different words used but exactly the same statement) does  make perfect sense and it is still a wonder)...

Back to the subject though... Having read reports from users that H3II backs are interchangeable with H4D ones (i.e. one can swap the backs between the camera bodies and still have them both working) , I would like to know if:
1. The same would apply with H3D backs,
2. If people have checked with different size sensors backs or only assumed that it is so by checking for backs that have same image size sensors.

There is a strong possibility that the bodies have a build in interface that can correct for lens aberrations for a specific size of sensor and thus, the interface would work the same for another back (of the same "family") that has the same image area size...  However, there is a probability that it also possible that all H3/H3II/H4 camera bodies have build in multiple interface as to correct for aberrations on different size sensors and then automatically recognise as of which interface to use depending on the back (of the same family) attached.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #173 on: April 17, 2016, 11:21:59 am »

There is a strong possibility that the bodies have a build in interface that can correct for lens aberrations for a specific size of sensor and thus, the interface would work the same for another back (of the same "family") that has the same image area size...  However, there is a probability that it also possible that all H3/H3II/H4 camera bodies have build in multiple interface as to correct for aberrations on different size sensors and then automatically recognise as of which interface to use depending on the back (of the same family) attached.

Whilst I agree it is highly probable that the details of the sensor are added to the file by the back and the exposure and lens details written to the same file by the body communicating with the back it is unlikely, IMHO, that any corrections are made to the file by either the back or the body based on those details these are performed by the Phocus software. It is always possible that Hasselblad "cook" the file as is done as we understand it by many DSLR makers but surely this is not going to the sole factor that prevents a body/back combination working?

Do I really need to post the link BTW  ;)

Hasselblad’s modern lens design has been optimised for digital perfection, including full automatic correction of colour aberration, distortion and light fall off. Phocus makes use of its detailed knowledge of the lens design and calculates the optical corrections for every shot at the given distance and aperture setting, providing perfect images, and an ideal basis for optimal image rendering and further processing. Hasselblad digital lens correction technology works automatically with all Hasselblad H System lenses, even with tilt/shift movements and it works with all the Carl Zeiss lenses from the classic V System, using manual settings.

My bold.

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AreBee

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #174 on: April 17, 2016, 11:32:21 am »

Theodoras,

Quote
..."there is a strong possibility that..." is both a possibility and a probability as one would mean exactly the same if it was "it is probable that"...

"A strong possibility" is a possibility and a probability. "There is a strong possibility" is an assertion. If the likelihood of an outcome is small then the assertion is incorrect.
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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #175 on: April 17, 2016, 11:50:55 am »

Theodoras,

"A strong possibility" is a possibility and a probability. "There is a strong possibility" is an assertion. If the likelihood of an outcome is small then the assertion is incorrect.

No... it is not an assertion... It would be one if it was "I'm sure that"... "There is a strong possibility" simply means that "it is possible" and the word "strong" is used there, because it makes sense (from tech POV) for the maker to do so... (meaning that it would surely work if the possibility is proved to be a fact).
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eronald

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #176 on: April 17, 2016, 11:52:12 am »

Of course, your average Sony RX100 compact does this too for the Jpegs, in camera, which is why it costs so much. And why the images look so good. And it can probably do it for video too.


;

Hasselblad’s modern lens design has been optimised for digital perfection, including full automatic correction of colour aberration, distortion and light fall off. Phocus makes use of its detailed knowledge of the lens design and calculates the optical corrections for every shot at the given distance and aperture setting, providing perfect images, and an ideal basis for optimal image rendering and further processing. Hasselblad digital lens correction technology works automatically with all Hasselblad H System lenses, even with tilt/shift movements and it works with all the Carl Zeiss lenses from the classic V System, using manual settings.

My bold.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #177 on: April 17, 2016, 12:01:01 pm »

Of course, your average Sony RX100 compact does this too for the Jpegs, in camera, which is why it costs so much. And why the images look so good. And it can probably do it for video too.

I wonder how "corrected" the H5 jpeg out of camera files are then, I could be wrong, there could be a mini Phocus under the hood.

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Theodoros

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #178 on: April 17, 2016, 12:28:44 pm »

IMO, all that "automatic correction BS" was an excuse for Hasselblad (and other makers - even now) as to close the system... My CF-39MS claims the same in its specification if (and only if) it will be used on an H body, but I use it on a Contax 645 instead and it performs like a dream... (in single shot - in multishot there are no aberrations anyway)... With my lenses being all able to cover the full 6X4.5 film size, whatever flaw of them is usually cropped out of the sensor size (37x49mm) and then, whatever is left with some of the lenses, I'm happy to correct it myself in post... A high end stuff maker shouldn't treat customers like main stream makers do... It shows no respect to his customers if he does so...   >:(
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AreBee

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Re: P1 price list... Will they insist on it?
« Reply #179 on: April 17, 2016, 01:10:33 pm »

Theodoros,

Quote
...it is not an assertion... It would be one if it was "I'm sure that"...

This is also incorrect. Surety is not a requirement of assertion.

Quote
"There is a strong possibility" simply means that "it is possible" and the word "strong" is used there...

It may be what you mean, but it is not what 'it' means.

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