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Author Topic: Paris attacks  (Read 53501 times)

jeremyrh

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #140 on: November 17, 2015, 10:03:51 am »

Both take a few seconds in the 19 minute video, shorter than, for instance, Angela Merker and other pro-refugee politicians also featured.

I would hope so. But why include these clowns AT ALL ?  It hardly boosts the credibility of the enterprise.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #141 on: November 17, 2015, 10:06:21 am »

Ok, but did you know about the third source of arms, Obama's donations? In his delusion, he spent hundred million dollars on arming and training so-called moderate Muslims, only to see them defect to ISIS the next day, taking with them all those, fairly modern and sophisticated arms.
Yeah, well, I guess he was hoping that these guys would do the job of fixing their homeland without foreign boots on the ground. Of course when you enlist, bringing your family history of fighting Muslims to bear, he can relax.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #142 on: November 17, 2015, 10:08:53 am »

I would hope so. But why include these clowns AT ALL ?  It hardly boosts the credibility of the enterprise.

You mean you'd prefer to hear only one point of view?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #143 on: November 17, 2015, 10:12:12 am »

Yeah, well, I guess he was hoping...

Yep, that's all he does. Hence the title: Hope-Peddler-In-Chief.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 10:18:27 am by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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jeremyrh

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #144 on: November 17, 2015, 10:15:39 am »

You mean you'd prefer to hear only one point of view?
I don't include inane nonsense uttered by idiots in the category of "useful debate".
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Alan Klein

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #145 on: November 17, 2015, 10:16:03 am »

If we bombed the oil spigots at the source,  ISIS couldn'tget the oil out in the first place.  why were the munitions dumps and training camps just bombed by the French after one year of American and ally bombing?  Where have we been in our bombing? What a joke.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #146 on: November 17, 2015, 10:20:53 am »

I don't include inane nonsense uttered by idiots in the category of "useful debate".

One of those "idiots" is the leading presidential candidate. But I guess your definition of "useful debate" includes only those who agree with you. Why debate it then?

Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #147 on: November 17, 2015, 10:21:37 am »

If we bombed the oil spigots at the source,  ISIS couldn'tget the oil out in the first place.  why were the munitions dumps and training camps just bombed by the French after one year of American and ally bombing?  Where have we been in our bombing? What a joke.
The biggest success of the devil is making us think it doesn't exists.

If you think the guys directing this war are all idiots, just check how much money they make move: maybe they are not so idiot.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #148 on: November 17, 2015, 10:27:46 am »

One of those "idiots" is the leading presidential candidate.

And the scary part is that he isn't even the dumbest of the Republican candidates!!

Quote
But I guess your definition of "useful debate" includes only those who agree with you. Why debate it then?

You may guess that, but nothing I have written supports your speculation.
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Colorado David

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #149 on: November 17, 2015, 11:08:19 am »

. . . why were the munitions dumps and training camps just bombed by the French after one year of American and ally bombing?  Where have we been in our bombing? What a joke.

The U.S. bombing campaign has been purely symbolic.  The current administration doesn't want to actually harm ISIS.  ISIS stands in the way of Iran and Russia dominating Syria. ISIS is also destabilizing Iraq and thus Iran's interests in Iraq.  Saudi Arabia and Turkey don't want an ascendant Russia and Iran in the region.  Air power is an effective way to soften up an area before sending in ground troops to take and hold real estate. The current administration has already made it perfectly clear there are no ground troops going to Syria.  We spend millions of dollars to drop some bombs on ineffective targets and at best we shake some sand and rocks and kill a few insignificant ISIS troops with no real purpose other than putting up a good front.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #150 on: November 17, 2015, 11:17:41 am »

Ok, but did you know about the third source of arms, Obama's donations? In his delusion, he spent hundred million dollars on arming and training so-called moderate Muslims, only to see them defect to ISIS the next day, taking with them all those, fairly modern and sophisticated arms.
The number of defections was minimal relative to the Iraqui troops that fled because they did not want to fight leaving their weapons behind.  You need to get the story correct rather than to be anti-Obama about everything.  Remember who kept up the search for Ben Laden and his name doesn't equate with Bush.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #151 on: November 17, 2015, 11:39:18 am »

The number of defections was minimal relative to the Iraqui troops that fled because they did not want to fight leaving their weapons behind.  You need to get the story correct...

So minimal that the Defense Dept. had to scrap the whole program, as practically no one left?

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The Obama administration on Friday abandoned its efforts to build up a new rebel force inside Syria to combat the Islamic State, acknowledging the failure of its $500 million campaign to train thousands of fighters... after mounting evidence that the training mission had resulted in no more than a handful of American-coached fighters.

The whole article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/10/world/middleeast/pentagon-program-islamic-state-syria.html

Who needs to get his story straight, again?

AlterEgo

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #152 on: November 17, 2015, 11:40:25 am »

why were the munitions dumps and training camps just bombed by the French
what makes you think that French actually hit something other than just dropped the bombs because Hollande needs PR ?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #153 on: November 17, 2015, 11:42:01 am »

...  nothing I have written supports your speculation.

You are right, you indeed have written nothing to contribute to the debate, apart from cutesy snipes and personal attacks.

AlterEgo

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #154 on: November 17, 2015, 11:43:49 am »

Remember who kept up the search for Ben Laden
I guess those were rank & file federal employees... what Obama had to do with that other than non issuing an order to specifically stop the search which 'd be a nonsense ? may be you mean the decision to send people in to kill whoever was discovered in that house in Pakistan ?
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Misirlou

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #155 on: November 17, 2015, 11:51:28 am »

I always kinda felt that they were making things like that up as they went along in a bid to cover the fact that things weren't going to according to the hawks wet dreams.... sorry carefully conceived and detailed plans. But I could be wrong.

Really? The military objective for that particular carrier battle group was defined before the operation, accomplished according to the operations plan, and when it was time for the group to rotate out (the first of the very large units to do so), the president flew out to acknowledge them. Bush clearly said in his speech on the deck that the first combat phase was over, but the long, hard work of stabilizing Iraq remained. That's an example of "making it up as you go along"?

Perhaps in the intervening years we've forgotten how dangerous that invasion was for the coalition forces. Iraq had some serious weapons. As it turned out, their soldiers were mostly unable or unwilling to use them effectively, but plenty of Americans still died removing the Hussein government from power. It might be easy to dismiss that now, but I'm sure the families of the people who were killed and wounded haven't forgotten.

An alternate explanation is that the president's critics, eager to twist anything he said to look dishonest or foolish, painted his statements with a far broader intent than he intended. They hoped to manufacture something to beat him with relentlessly. And their mission was accomplished.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 03:07:46 pm by Misirlou »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #156 on: November 17, 2015, 12:18:03 pm »

Since I do not mind audiatur at altera pars ("hear the other side") here is one video that many in this thread might enjoy. The video is very much against what I've been advocating (well, at least in terms of the next move, if not in the assessment of the situation and what led to it). It is posted on Facebook, and I do not have any other url, sorry. The gentleman in the video is a former US Marine.

https://www.facebook.com/MPACUK1Ummah/videos/1478473405754889/

jeremyrh

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #157 on: November 17, 2015, 01:23:50 pm »

The key point is, in the current day, only adherents to one text put it into practice.

That will be news to the victims of Sikh plane-bombers in Canada, Buddhists in Myanmar, etc etc etc

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/21/world/asia/extremism-rises-among-myanmar-buddhists-wary-of-muslim-minority.html?_r=0
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AlterEgo

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #158 on: November 17, 2015, 02:32:11 pm »

http://www.dw.com/en/opinion-war-is-no-remedy-for-terrorism/a-18854501

regardless the other parts... "A French commentator wrote: We kill the badly dressed extremists, and we flatter the ones in elegant clothes. These words were aimed at Saudi Arabia."... however - what is the alternative ? when West tried to unsit less "friendly" regimes in Libya, Iraq or Syria the outcome was what it is... what do to with bloody sheikhs ?
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Misirlou

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Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #159 on: November 17, 2015, 03:23:41 pm »

Personally, I think we need to stop identifying this as a problem with a group of people, and rather as a problem with an especially dangerous ideology. Once you start filming yourself beheading prisoners, whom you admit have taken no hostile action, you have crossed into a condition whereby your opponents can never deal with you in a non-lethal way. I felt the same thing about the Serb militia members who were taking potshots at Bosnian civilians from the hills around Sarajevo. There are some rules you just don't cross, at least if you expect not to be killed eventually.

I know someone will say the west is guilty of the same thing due to collateral damage during bomb strikes and so forth, but there is a difference in specific intent to harm civilians. Pretty hard to avoid collateral deaths when the opposing force deliberately fires upon you from Mosques. When I was in Afghanistan, I wore the uniform at all times, lest I be captured. If you're found on the battlefield not in uniform, the Geneva Conventions say you deserve no rights of protection at all. Anyone ever seen any Al Qaeda/ISIS fighters wearing a uniform? Following any of the rules of armed conflict whatsoever?
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