Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 13   Go Down

Author Topic: Paris attacks  (Read 42850 times)

Dale Villeponteaux

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 378
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #180 on: November 18, 2015, 08:33:36 am »

Finally someone in this thread is adressing the core topic.

IS only targets one concrete result and that is the increase of civil unrest in France as a result of the opposition between the population of arab origins and the rest of the country. Killing innocents is just a means to that end.

This isn't the result of a pre-existing war btwn civilizations. On the contrary, this is the dangerous attempt of a group of smart outlaws to start a war btw civilization by spreading their nihilistic views of the world, their desire to end the world as we know it by making it explode from inside.

Any action likely to increase the hatred between people, including military retaliation, will serve their goal by generating more hatred and creating more terrorists, further worsening the vicious circle triggered, among other events, by the war in Irak.

When facing an enemy who is not afraid to die to generate more obscurantism, it is pointless to speak about the effectiveness of air strikes.

Cutting their sources of funding must obviously be done, but IMHO, the number one priority we should all be discussing, is how we can create more love for the populations of islamic origins in Western European countries.

The way I look at it, we have been forced into a tremendous opportunity to fix the many cracks in the theoretical model of "liberte, egalite, fraternite" since the social dimension of the story is central here. Either we succeed quickly to really provide equal opportunities to all the citizens of France and Belgium, regardless of their religions, communities, place of dwelling,... or many more people will die in similar attacks moving forward.

Cheers,
Bernard

This translates to "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves..." with the underlying assumption that ISIS
would respond to our turning the other cheek by abruptly changing
their core values. I can't see it.

Logged
My avatar isn't an accurate portrayal; I have much less hair.

Diego Pigozzo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 663
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #181 on: November 18, 2015, 08:43:57 am »

This translates to "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves..." with the underlying assumption that ISIS
would respond to our turning the other cheek by abruptly changing
their core values. I can't see it.
What does lead to the "underlying assumption"?
That's not what the quoted post says.
Logged
When I grow up I want to be a photographer.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/diegopig/

Otto Phocus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 655
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #182 on: November 18, 2015, 09:41:33 am »

Former ISIS hostage, French reporter tortured for 10 months: They *want* us to retaliate
It struck me forcefully how technologically connected they are; they follow the news obsessively, but everything they see goes through their own filter. They are totally indoctrinated, clinging to all manner of conspiracy theories, never acknowledging the contradictions.

He could be describing a lot of Americans too.
Logged
I shoot with a Camera Obscura with an optical device attached that refracts and transmits light.

Rajan Parrikar

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3951
    • Rajan Parrikar
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #183 on: November 18, 2015, 10:49:01 am »

"This week, we are told to not get too excited over 129 people being slaughtered in the streets, concert halls, and cafés of Paris. In particular, we shouldn’t let minor inevitabilities such as mass carnage influence the West’s refugee and immigration policies...
.
...For example, the fact that one suicide bomber’s fingerprints showed he had come ashore as a refugee in Greece last month, where he was handed asylum papers allowing him to travel across Europe, shouldn’t reflect badly on Chancellor Merkel’s decision on a whim to suspend E.U. regulations in order to permanently alter Europe’s demographic balance."

http://takimag.com/article/four_ways_to_save_europe_steve_sailer#axzz3rrGqSI1r

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8911
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #184 on: November 18, 2015, 11:02:52 am »

Finally someone in this thread is adressing the core topic.

IS only targets one concrete result and that is the increase of civil unrest in France as a result of the opposition between the population of arab origins and the rest of the country. Killing innocents is just a means to that end.

This isn't the result of a pre-existing war btwn civilizations. On the contrary, this is the dangerous attempt of a group of smart outlaws to start a war btw civilization by spreading their nihilistic views of the world, their desire to end the world as we know it by making it explode from inside.

This is a typical tactical move when one wants to divert attention from the losses of ones own troups, engage in asymmetrical warfare.

Quote
Any action likely to increase the hatred between people, including military retaliation, will serve their goal by generating more hatred and creating more terrorists, further worsening the vicious circle triggered, among other events, by the war in Irak.

When facing an enemy who is not afraid to die to generate more obscurantism, it is pointless to speak about the effectiveness of air strikes.

Not quite that simple. The current French president is facing elections, and his outlook for reelection is/was grim. So it was predictable that he would step up the effort in reaction. This is an opportunity for him as well. These brainwashed (and under the influence of drugs) followers of extremism do not need to be bombarded to hate the rest of the world, fellow muslims no exception. Susceptible (and marginalized) persons apparently can radicalize within a few weeks, so when there is a perceived lack of a meaningful future, the adventure and status among peers becomes an easy choice.

Bombardments are but one element in a coordinated approach. Also, the bombardments of vital infrastructure have been limited, I've heard some 8 sorties per day by the US (which is a bit of a contrast with the 1000 per day in the invasion of Bagdad). But then the goal this time around is not to prepare for invasion, although it's not that clear what the objective actually is.

Quote
Cutting their sources of funding must obviously be done, but IMHO, the number one priority we should all be discussing, is how we can create more love for the populations of islamic origins in Western European countries.

Targeting the (financial/arms) resources is a more effective response, but here geopolitics (which are part of the cause already) make things increasingly difficult. Of the annual IS budget (they control some 2 billion US$ assets, and make 3-6 billion US$ annual revenue), some 750 million USD comes from sales of oil and gass (apparently a lot of which goes to their enemy the Assad Regime because he is cut off from other suppliers, and to Turkey), but the lower oil prices do not help them. They have plenty of arms, taken along by Iraqi officers from the Irak war and supplied by the US, but there are enough weapons to be had (indirectly) from various international (US/Russia) sources. They also make a lot of money from sales of other captured resources (food produce like grain, Phosphate, cement/concrete, and minerals), and they also collect tax (a.o. VAT and Road-tax), and they robbed banks (some 500 million US$).

Quote
The way I look at it, we have been forced into a tremendous opportunity to fix the many cracks in the theoretical model of "liberte, egalite, fraternite" since the social dimension of the story is central here. Either we succeed quickly to really provide equal opportunities to all the citizens of France and Belgium, regardless of their religions, communities, place of dwelling,... or many more people will die in similar attacks moving forward.

Besides weakening their infrastructures and support among local population, there obviously needs to be done much more to take away sympathy with marginalized segments of the western population. Lots of budget cuts have made things worse in that aspect, maybe especially in France and Belgium, but not only there. The influx of millions of refugees, which is used as a weapon, only makes matters worse because Western resources are limited and disruption of the social fabric is conceivable. Muslim countries are very absent in taking part in refugee relief, for a reason ...

It's a complex situation, mostly caused by geopolitics and proliferation of weapons in exchange for oil and other natural resources. Religious fundamentalism (all religions) also does not help. Thinking stops where Dogmas start. Solving something that has been created over centuries, and accelerated in the last 7 decades, cannot be done overnight. Radicals in the world will never be totally eliminated (just like crime cannot be totally defeated and police made unnecessary) so the best one can hope for is to reduce their presence and impact to 'acceptable proportions'.

Here is an interesting interview with a (unfortunately very rare) minority voice (Saudi-Born Singer Shams Bandar) in the Muslim community, on Egyptian television. She is right that the card of the victim role is played a lot by Muslims, without a critical look at themselves. But then Western society is not free of blame either. It's complex, and will take a lot of time and effort (education) to somewhat improve.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 01:15:13 pm by BartvanderWolf »
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18059
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #185 on: November 18, 2015, 12:10:18 pm »

... the bombardments of vital infrastructure have been limited, I've heard some 8 sorties per day by the US (which is a bit of a contrast with the 1000 per day in the invasion of Bagdad). But then the goal this time around is not to prepare for invasion, although it's not that clear what the objective actually is....

Photo-op?

Quote
The influx of millions of refugees, which is used as a weapon, only makes matters worse because Western resources are limited and disruption of the social fabric is conceivable. Muslim countries are very absent in taking part in refugee relief, for a reason ...

+1

AlterEgo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1995
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #186 on: November 18, 2015, 12:29:12 pm »

Muslim countries are very absent in taking part in refugee relief, for a reason
so how many refugees at this moment are in Libya, Turkey, Lebanon, etc, etc vs how many in Europe ? of you mean that muslim countries somehow owe Europe relief for Europe's proactive role in creating this mess in the first place ? which started way before Saudi Arabia formed as a state for example.
Logged

Colorado David

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1178
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #187 on: November 18, 2015, 12:52:25 pm »

  . . . muslim countries somehow owe Europe relief for Europe's proactive role in creating this mess in the first place ?

This little bit of pure fiction is repeated over and over until people believe it to be true.  Europe is not without fault.  The Sikes/Picot Agreement comes to mind.  However Islam has been a violent, aggressive, dishonest religion/political system from its inception.  It began with the goal of world domination and has never strayed from that. There are periods of respite, but world domination is the central goal of Islam.  World War I didn't help matters any when Germany actively tried to foment Islamic Jihad to overthrow the British in Egypt, but that does not relieve the followers of Islam of the responsibility they must bear.  Anyone who sincerely believes otherwise would do well to study the Quran a little bit.

Colorado David

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1178
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #188 on: November 18, 2015, 12:53:54 pm »

I should add that I come to LULA for photography discussions and the Coffee Corner discussions are a complete distraction.  I should stay out of this part of LULA.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8911
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #189 on: November 18, 2015, 12:54:27 pm »

so how many refugees at this moment are in Libya, Turkey, Lebanon, etc, etc vs how many in Europe ?

They are neighbors, the first countries to arrive at when fleeing from one's own home country. There is no choice, it happens to those neighbors, and they do get (some) funding from the West to accommodate them. Most refugees want to return to their home, if only it were safe. So it doesn't help them to be transported to countries of which they don't speak the language or understand the customs.

We are talking about temporary emergency first aid, out of humanitarian reasons. Or as a Kuwait official explained why they did nothing; "it's too expensive for them in Kuwait".

Quote
you mean that muslim countries somehow owe Europe relief for Europe's proactive role in creating this mess in the first place ? which started way before Saudi Arabia formed as a state for example.

You're being silly. We are talking about spontaneous humanitarian relief. Not much of that around in that region among their 'brothers'. I applaud the efforts of the direct neighbors, but they too are left in the cold by their brothers.

Muslims have been killing each other long before the USA became a fact, and it also didn't start with the crusades. But then blaming someone else, is soooooo much easier than a bit of critical introspection.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18059
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #190 on: November 18, 2015, 01:45:15 pm »

I should add that I come to LULA for photography discussions and the Coffee Corner discussions are a complete distraction.

Which is the very purpose of any coffee corner ;)

Speaking of coffee... which coffee are we talking about here? Turkish, Greek, Arabic, American, War-on-Christmas (a.k.a. $tarbucks) ones? Inquiring minds need to know. You see, in my country of birth we called it Turkish coffee. I then visit Greece and order a Turkish coffee and the waiter gives me a death stare and corrects me: "It is Greek coffee, Sir."
 
I think this forum needs to be subdivided accordingly. ;)

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #191 on: November 18, 2015, 02:02:41 pm »

Speaking of coffee... which coffee are we talking about here? Turkish, Greek, Arabic, American, War-on-Christmas (a.k.a. $tarbucks) ones? Inquiring minds need to know. You see, in my country of birth we called it Turkish coffee. I then visit Greece and order a Turkish coffee and the waiter gives me a death stare and corrects me: "It is Greek coffee, Sir."
LOL!  My Israeli brother in law was over with my sister some years ago for a visit.  While my sister was busy at her academic meeting, he and I went to Zaytinya, a very nice local "Greek" tapas restaurant (started by a Spaniard).  We just finished eating and the waiter asked if we would like some Turkish coffee to conclude the meal.  My brother in law looked at the waiter and said, "you really serve Turkish coffee here?"

Hmmmm, this is really a good anecdote given the title of this sub-forum!!! ;D
Logged

Colorado David

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1178
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #192 on: November 18, 2015, 02:24:06 pm »

Which is the very purpose of any coffee corner ;)

Speaking of coffee... which coffee are we talking about here? Turkish, Greek, Arabic, American, War-on-Christmas (a.k.a. $tarbucks) ones? Inquiring minds need to know. You see, in my country of birth we called it Turkish coffee. I then visit Greece and order a Turkish coffee and the waiter gives me a death stare and corrects me: "It is Greek coffee, Sir."
 
I think this forum needs to be subdivided accordingly. ;)

I am mostly a tea drinker.  Taylor of Harrogate English Breakfast is my choice.  However, when drinking coffee, my preference is for Kenya AA. Starbucks is over-roasted in my opinion. Do not order Turkish Coffee in Greece nor Greek Coffee in Turkey.  It's best just to order coffee and hope for the best.  Better than suffering the eye of death.

Tarnash

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 42
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #193 on: November 18, 2015, 06:24:38 pm »

And, For those of you in the US:  No need to go far.  In 2003 the, then Chairman of the Committee on House Administration had the menus changed in three of Congress's cafeterias to exclude the name `french fries'. A response to Frances' disinclination to support the Iraq war.  Hamburgers were similarly renamed during WWII and so on.  So, what is an Islamophobe to do with Thanksgiving all but on us.  Turkey is certainly out of the question ;)   
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18059
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #194 on: November 18, 2015, 06:30:37 pm »

... Turkey is certainly out of the question ;)   

No wonder Obama pardons it. The rest of us, however... ;)

Misirlou

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 711
    • http://
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #195 on: November 18, 2015, 06:33:17 pm »

What ever happened to those very expensive tins of powdered instant coffee that were so popular on the east coast in the late 1970's? As I remember, they actually tasted pretty good.
Logged

Paulo Bizarro

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7321
    • http://www.paulobizarro.com
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #196 on: November 19, 2015, 04:25:03 am »

And, For those of you in the US:  No need to go far.  In 2003 the, then Chairman of the Committee on House Administration had the menus changed in three of Congress's cafeterias to exclude the name `french fries'. A response to Frances' disinclination to support the Iraq war.  Hamburgers were similarly renamed during WWII and so on.  So, what is an Islamophobe to do with Thanksgiving all but on us.  Turkey is certainly out of the question ;)

Every body knows that French fries come from Belgium, like the famous detective... probably the term was coined by someone who thinks that they are the same country...

Otto Phocus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 655
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #197 on: November 19, 2015, 07:56:29 am »

Every body knows that French fries come from Belgium, like the famous detective... probably the term was coined by someone who thinks that they are the same country...

Just like the Hamburger was "invented" in Hamberg.

Hamberg, NY that is.  :)
Logged
I shoot with a Camera Obscura with an optical device attached that refracts and transmits light.

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #198 on: November 19, 2015, 08:10:19 am »

Subject matter.....Paris Attacks. IMO the last few posts are off topic looking disrespectful to the French people who suffered? :(

Otto Phocus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 655
Re: Paris attacks
« Reply #199 on: November 19, 2015, 08:37:24 am »

Subject matter.....Paris Attacks. IMO the last few posts are off topic looking disrespectful to the French people who suffered? :(

Pretty sure that no one in Paris is really that affected by posts on a photographic webpage forum.  :)

Logged
I shoot with a Camera Obscura with an optical device attached that refracts and transmits light.
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 13   Go Up