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Author Topic: Sony a7r II announced...  (Read 40193 times)

jjj

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #100 on: June 14, 2015, 11:38:50 am »

Jeremy,

That I may have been more fortunate than you (clearly) doesn't change the severity of data loss. Nor are my priorities when it comes to data storage, necessarily different to yours.

My point is that a second card slot, isn't the b-all and end all of data security.
No one said it was, but card failure is a common issue compared to all other problems. Dual slot is a simple and very effective solution. Not only that it means you can work in on location without having to bother with constant backing up of data as it's already backed up.

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My go-to 'camera-case' backup setup is a MacBook Air with two external 512GB SSD's. I chimp often, just to check that the cam reads and writes to the card, alternate and offload files to the SSD's frequently when I'm not tethered (rare). Perhaps OTT in your book, not mine. To each his own, many degrees of data security, but in my book the second card slot is scant comfort. When I had the D800 I never used it. I'd choose a cam that that tethers rather than one that only offers two slots any day.

But I certainly accept that for some disciplines (sports in particular, pj also) a second drive is more 'de rigeur' than others. But even there, I'd suggest that real-time wi-fi transfer is more the way forward. We've seen the first steps in that direction, both from PhaseOne and Sony (amongst others) - I hope it accelerates.

In the meantime, all those OM-D, GH-4 and other MILC users, seem to be surviving on just the one slot. As I said in my original post - if I wanted the cam, for the cam's sake - I wouldn't be deterred by the single card, I'd look for an alternate safety strategy.
Except your solutions do not work with card failure or are completely impractical. Backing up is irrelevant as you cannot back up from a dead card, you usually only notice the problem when it's too late by the nature of the beast. Again if you'd had the problem, you would say very different things.
The other fancy solutions, wifi/tethering are more complex and fraught than the simplicity of a second card slot. Not to mention often impractical in the situations where you only get one chance at the shot.

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Just saw your post - your dreaded Sandisk is my preferred marque!
Two slots won't solve our quandary ..
Even crappy Sandisks are unlikely to simultaneously fail in tandem. ;)


Last time I looked SD cards weren't sell-propelled - so it's either the cam or you beating on the eject button with excessive vigour  ;D
Lots of devices do not have an eject button, rather a spring loaded action that ejects card after depressing it. Sometimes the spring is a bit keen!
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jjj

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #101 on: June 14, 2015, 11:44:27 am »

It's absence is certainly worth commenting on, but not worth hyperbole.
What hyperbole? It's a simple solution against card failure for cameras. Something certain photographers, particularly pros find far more important than a few extra MP.
Thinking losing one's data is trivial is however plain dumb.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #102 on: June 14, 2015, 11:51:46 am »

.... if this were a mere low level consumer camera.

Don't know about "low level," or "consumer" but it ain't a professional camera. Perhaps a very capable prosumer camera, at best. As someone already mentioned, it is a sensor in a box (a LEGO designed box, I would add). The mere fact that you'd get paper cuts while handling it, proves it. That some pros are using it doesn't prove it otherwise. You wouldn't call Holga a pro camera just because some pros are using it when it suits the purpose.

 ;)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #103 on: June 14, 2015, 11:52:04 am »

I simply avoid Sandisk or other flaky brands ...

Hi,

If never had a single issue with SanDisk (both CF and SD type) memory cards in the approx. 15 years that I've been using them. I do know of Lexar issues being reported, but I rarely (can't remember even one SanDisk issue being reported in my circle of close relatives/colleagues) hear Sandisk being mentioned.

Do you have any credible references that rate SanDisk as 'flaky'?

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 11:55:36 am by BartvanderWolf »
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BrianVS

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2015, 12:40:55 pm »

My experience with the Sandisk "extreme-Pro".

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109092

I've never had a problem with the 8GByte 4x Sandisk, continue to use them.
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jjj

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #105 on: June 14, 2015, 02:02:59 pm »

If never had a single issue with SanDisk (both CF and SD type) memory cards in the approx. 15 years that I've been using them. I do know of Lexar issues being reported, but I rarely (can't remember even one SanDisk issue being reported in my circle of close relatives/colleagues) hear Sandisk being mentioned.
I've never had a heart attack, therefore they do not happen.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #106 on: June 14, 2015, 02:25:18 pm »

For hundreds of years, photographers were recording a single image, no backup. Imagine Robert Capa, after learning of the developing disaster with his film, call his editor and was like: "Don't worry, bro, I got your back, I was simultaneously shooting with a second camera in my left hand."

No, there was always only one chance to have that once-in-lifetime picture. We were shooting Kodachromes, had to put them in yellow mailers and surrender them for a week or two to the mercy of whatever postal system the country had (or often two countries).

So we have today some form of backup in some cameras. That is great. There are still millions of other scenarios where you'd lose your pictures. You could break a leg on your way to a shoot, you camera can end up in water (though chances are your memory card would still work just fine), etc. Your camera malfunctions, no worries, you carry two... except it is not unheard of the second malfunction. The same with your backup drives.

Things malfunction all the time. Big deal. Bad luck, nuisance, sure... even catastrophe (from the perspective of lost shots of a once-in-lifetime event). That a camera doesn't have a second slot, however, is hardly a cataclysmic event in itself.

jjj

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2015, 03:13:16 pm »

That a camera doesn't have a second slot, however, is hardly a cataclysmic event in itself.
No one said it was. Just that camera is less attractive because of it.
However all those who haven't had a card failure seems to be making a huge fuss about how unnecessary and pointless a second slot is. Whereas I just think, "Oh I so wish I had one of them in the camera I used for the climactic scene in a documentary where only one camera could be present". The time when Sandisk let me down with no files recoverable at all from card. That was just one of three Sandisk cards that failed on that one shot in three different cameras. Film never got finished as a result of that.


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For hundreds of years, photographers were recording a single image, no backup. Imagine Robert Capa, after learning of the developing disaster with his film, call his editor and was like: "Don't worry, bro, I got your back, I was simultaneously shooting with a second camera in my left hand."
One of the dumbest arguments ever. "Well people managed without it before." Well actually they didn't, loads of work got lost and I bet you every single photographer that happened to would have been glad of backup. Can imagine the same thing in medicine "I don't know why people insist on anaesthetic, in my days you bit on a bit of wood and let surgeon got on with it."

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2015, 04:04:55 pm »

... how unnecessary and pointless a second slot is....

 ... "Well people managed without it before."

You are now taking the point to another extreme. No one said it is "unnecessary and pointless," nor my argument was solely that "people managed without it before." I actually said it is great that some cameras have some sort of backup today. I said "some sort" because having a second slot is not a backup panacea. The point here is that it is not such a catastrophic omission either, as some said it is, to the point of being a deal breaker.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #109 on: June 14, 2015, 04:10:12 pm »

I've never had a heart attack, therefore they do not happen.

Nobody said card failures do not happen. Bart simply offered anecdotal counter-argument to the few of you, representing the vocal minority, who created the impression that card failures happen with catastrophic frequencies. I never had a card failure, btw. I once had a bent pin inside a CF-card camera, which rendered the camera unusable, not the card.

The real questions is: what is the failure rate of memory cards, statistically? I bet it is much, much smaller  than a plethora of other events that might ruin your shoot.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #110 on: June 14, 2015, 05:17:05 pm »

Nobody said card failures do not happen. Bart simply offered anecdotal counter-argument to the few of you, representing the vocal minority, who created the impression that card failures happen with catastrophic frequencies.

Correct, and it may well be that certain issues (that undoubtedly do occur even if I didn't experience them first hand) are camera interface related as well. And statistically every brand must have some units that are faulty. The questions is  indeed what is the real failure rate. Calling a brand's cards 'flaky' should be easy enough to back up with statistical data if they really are.

I'm looking forward to such credible evidence, because then I will feel even luckier and happy and privileged and special, that it didn't happen with my cards ;)

Cheers,
Bart
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bjanes

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #111 on: June 14, 2015, 05:24:23 pm »

Correct, and it may well be that certain issues (that undoubtedly do occur even if I didn't experience them first hand) are camera interface related as well. And statistically every brand must have some units that are faulty. The questions is  indeed what is the real failure rate. Calling a brand's cards 'flaky' should be easy enough to back up with statistical data if they really are.

I'm looking forward to such credible evidence, because then I will feel even luckier and happy and privileged and special, that it didn't happen with my cards ;)

Cheers,
Bart

To add to the anecdotal evidence, I have been using high end Sandisk CF cards for 11 years and have had zero failures or problems. They work well for me.

Bill
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jjj

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #112 on: June 14, 2015, 05:25:06 pm »

Nobody said card failures do not happen.
No they behave as if failures do not happen, an important distinction, whilst saying how they've never had an incident and implying failures are not a problem. I had gear stolen from a shared city centre house once because a mother of one of my flatmates didn't bother to close and lock the back door. The reason being was that she'd never been robbed in all the time she lived in a small village in the country, so naively didn't feel the need to lock up. Losing irreplaceable video tape footage of my sister's wedding in the process.  >:(

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Bart simply offered anecdotal counter-argument to the few of you, representing the vocal minority, who created the impression that card failures happen with catastrophic frequencies.
No with catastrophic results, not catastrophic frequency. Once again a very important distinction. It happens rarely, which is still way too often in my books. If a film brand failed as frequently as computer stuff did, the company would have rapidly gone out of business, but people seem endure computer issues and treat them as being more acceptable.

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The real questions is: what is the failure rate of memory cards, statistically? I bet it is much, much smaller  than a plethora of other events that might ruin your shoot.
Is it less likely than all the other possibilities together? Yes, but that's not comparing things equally and as it an easily preventable problem, why not simply avoid the issue. Just because you fail to see the benefit, you think there isn't one for others. Just like with in camera GPS that you thought was pointless even though others find it useful. As it happens I recently heard a stock photographer talking about how it helped his sales recently. Why do people think that what works for them is suitable for everyone else, when that is so demonstrably not the case.  ???

Hoodman claim it's around 2-3% for consumer cards like Sandisk which is what most 'pro' cards are in fact, if you want non-consumer cards look here. Which why most people on here are quite unlikely to have had a problem. Hard drives failures can can be a lot higher. Obviously the only people who can really vouch for cards longevity are the manufacturers, who won't admit to anything. No-one uses cards in the large numbers as they do HDs so reliability or lack thereof is not visible in the same way. But interestingly Sandisk never counterclaimed/sued Hoodman for disparaging their products which I thought was interesting.
Why have I had several then? Probably the same reason I've had quite a few hard drive failures, I have had lots of them which obviously increase one's chances. Plus the reality is that whilst some people won't have any issues, some will have numerous by the nature of random distribution. Clusters happen and the more cards/drives you have the more likely it is to find a bad one. I had three of the infamous IBM deskstar drives that destroyed their business for example, one failed before I could get info off it, so had to be data recovered.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #113 on: June 14, 2015, 05:29:37 pm »

For hundreds of years, photographers were recording a single image, no backup. Imagine Robert Capa, after learning of the developing disaster with his film, call his editor and was like: "Don't worry, bro, I got your back, I was simultaneously shooting with a second camera in my left hand."
The Capa story you quote is in fact just that a story. Those "missing rolls" were never exposed. The darkroom "disaster" was made up to cover the fact.
The Robert Capa D-Day Project has received the 2014 Society of Professional Journalists Sigma Delta Chi (SDX) Award for Research About Journalism.
http://www.nearbycafe.com/artandphoto/photocritic/major-stories/major-series-2014/robert-capa-on-d-day/

There is a long, very long, there are vested interests at stake here, series of posts that show that Capa only exposed those images that we know of, which in no way diminishes their power.
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jjj

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #114 on: June 14, 2015, 05:30:41 pm »

To add to the anecdotal evidence, I have been using high end Sandisk CF cards for 11 years and have had zero failures or problems. They work well for me.
You probably haven't in fact as their consumer cards are not their high end, military/industrial cards are. Which is a different market again.
And as mentioned elsewhere any one individual is unlikely to have bought enough cards to guarantee failure.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 06:27:06 pm by jjj »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #116 on: June 14, 2015, 06:02:38 pm »

To add to the anecdotal evidence, I have been using high end Sandisk CF cards for 11 years and have had zero failures or problems. They work well for me.

I have experienced SD failures with Sandisk, Sony (happened twice, ironic, I know...) and Transcend. I believe Sandisk with CF. I typically buy the fastest card available at time of purchase.

For those familiar with risk mgt in project context, the assessment of a risk is often made by multiplying frequency by impact.

I can only speak for myself, but in my 15 years of shooting digital, card failure have been the only failure that did result/could have resulted (without dual slot) in image loss. In most cases there was no sign when shooting, the card was just found to be unreadable later. I had the aperture lever of a 70-200f2.8 die on me once, but it just forced me to shoot wide open. Other than that zero equipment issues endangering image capture.

Does the lack of dual slot make the a7rII unusable? No, it doesn't, but it reduces its appeal to me and quite a few others it seems. That clearly confirms that Sony missed something here.

I am unsure why this generates such a heated debate. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

jjj

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #117 on: June 14, 2015, 06:19:03 pm »

Listed on Amazon UK:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hoodman-RAW6-CF16GBRAW-16GB-CompactFlash-Card/dp/B0038N4BEC/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1434317990&sr=1-3&keywords=hoodman+cf
That's the old ones at the old high prices. But thanks for looking.
The new faster 64GB are the same price in $ as the old 32Gb in pounds. 200/$200, so not a good buy and is about all that can be found in UK sadly. I don't buy from fleabay either, particularly for things like cards. If buying more than a handfull, it may be worth flying to the US to get them.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 06:40:44 pm by jjj »
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jjj

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #118 on: June 14, 2015, 06:39:22 pm »

For those familiar with risk mgt in project context, the assessment of a risk is often made by multiplying frequency by impact.

I can only speak for myself, but in my 15 years of shooting digital, card failure have been the only failure that did result/could have resulted (without dual slot) in image loss. In most cases there was no sign when shooting, the card was just found to be unreadable later. I had the aperture lever of a 70-200f2.8 die on me once, but it just forced me to shoot wide open. Other than that zero equipment issues endangering image capture.
Much the same as me then.

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Does the lack of dual slot make the a7rII unusable? No, it doesn't, but it reduces its appeal to me and quite a few others it seems. That clearly confirms that Sony missed something here.

I am unsure why this generates such a heated debate. ;)
Normal human nature. 'I've never experienced/required it, therefore I don't see it as a problem/need.' The same people complain about 'bloat' when a feature they do not want is added to software. The fact the majority of feature requests may have asked for said feature is immaterial.
However I bet anyone who has card failure sees dual slots as a big plus.

I fancy a small camera system for certain types of work and it's a shame dual slots are not on such cameras. If they are going to go the small route why not do it completely and use the minute micro SD card, plenty of room for two then.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #119 on: June 14, 2015, 07:07:23 pm »

If they are going to go the small route why not do it completely and use the minute micro SD card, plenty of room for two then.

Exactly, one regular SD and one micro SD would be a good compromise. There is clearly no way they could not have packaged it.

It is probably a conscious decision that confirms that an a9r is coming.

Cheers,
Bernard
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