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Author Topic: Sony a7r II announced...  (Read 40192 times)

Manoli

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #80 on: June 13, 2015, 12:19:27 pm »

Either Sony doesn't intend the a7rII to be used for critical applications and it would therefore not be a high end camera, or they messed up. My take is that they messed up. Comments in this thread lead me to think that I am not alone to feel that way.

Bernard,

I'm not sure I follow your rationale on this point. The world is downsizing, it has been for several decades and memory cards aren't immune to this. Yesterday it was CF cards, today more often than not SD cards, tomorrow who knows ?  Electrical products are all liable to failure. It's a statistical certainty. Hard drives likewise. SSD's are anticipated to have an even lower statistical certainty than hard drives. In all likelihood they will - time will tell.

If SD cards are considered unreliable / less reliable than CF cards, is that because of their innards or because of their, at first sight, flimsier construction ? If it's the latter then the solution is to beef up the manufacturing quality. I"ve had at least 24 SD cards (the earliest ones of 256MB sizes still work) none failed but then none were subjected to 'inappropriate ' handling - the same can't be said about the cams! (I once lost a cam, fell overboard in 20M of seawater. Had to summon a diver to retrieve it; the cam was doomed but the SD card and all the images on it were recovered).

If manufacturers are starting to abandon the dual card slot, it'll surely be for new tech to replace outdated methods. Much as Apple were the first to abandon the in-built CD drive and the floppy drive(s) before that. I think it's wiser that the user re-think his backup & safety procedures rather than rely on doomed tech. After all it's not such a hindrance - all digital Leica M users have faced that hurdle since the introduction of the M8, but none, AFAIK used that as a criterion for not buying the cam. The days of the pro behemoth Nikon D3x / 4s etc are numbered. I loved the build, feel and quality but the future they ain't. Likewise dual card slots.

I'd no more think of going on a 'never-to-be-repeated' shoot with a single cam any more than I would relying on a single form of backup - dual card slots included.

In the words of George Bernard Shaw:

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”


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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #81 on: June 13, 2015, 06:08:42 pm »

If manufacturers are starting to abandon the dual card slot, it'll surely be for new tech to replace outdated methods.

I don't think that this is what's happening.

Nikon has had double slots for many years on both FX and DX top bodies, they were followed by Canon (recently in their 7DII), Pentax,... Sony didn't follow them in this body and they have never provided this before. I understand downsizing as a trend, but I am not sure why Sony didn't have the physical space to add a second slot.

I have zero problem with a new technology replacing double card slots, but I don't see any in the a7rII.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 06:29:13 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #82 on: June 13, 2015, 06:09:54 pm »

"Either XXX doesn't intend the ZZZ to be used for critical applications and it would therefore not be a high end camera, or they messed up."

Shouldn't the same reasoning apply? (Perhaps there's a flaw in the reasoning.)

Sure, the same reasoning does obviously apply, as clearly stated in my post.

Cheers,
Bernard

Manoli

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #83 on: June 13, 2015, 07:12:48 pm »

I have zero problem with a new technology replacing double card slots, but I don't see any in the a7rII.

Well built-in wi-fi for one, but that wasn't the key point I was making. If there was a cam I wanted, for it's cam qualities, I wouldn't be deterred by only one card slot - I'd look for alternative back up and security strategies. Leica M's being a case in point.

Best,
Manoli

Edit:
IIRC, Olympus OM-D's, Fuji's, Pana GH-4 et al, also all have just one card slot.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 07:48:23 pm by Manoli »
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Dan Vincent

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #84 on: June 13, 2015, 10:26:39 pm »

Sony a700, a900/a850, and a99 all had dual slots (One CF, one MS on the first two, and dual SD on the last). Single-slot only on the a7 series is likely due to pure space saving constraints. A theoretical a9 body would likely have dual slots.

shadowblade

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #85 on: June 13, 2015, 11:12:56 pm »

Expect the A8 or A9 to have dual slots, as well as likely greater battery capacity, burst length, frame rate, AF, etc.

The A7r/A7rII has a great sensor, but the A7r, at least, is basically just a sensor in a box (the A7rII appears to be better).

Think of the A7r as Sony's 5D2 and the A8/A9 as the 1Ds3 - similar sensor, but with many more features in the higher-end model.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #86 on: June 14, 2015, 01:00:02 am »

Sony a700, a900/a850, and a99 all had dual slots (One CF, one MS on the first two, and dual SD on the last). Single-slot only on the a7 series is likely due to pure space saving constraints. A theoretical a9 body would likely have dual slots.

Agreed, it really feels like Sony is saving this for their next 59mp/4,500US$ a9r. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

alatreille

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #87 on: June 14, 2015, 01:54:28 am »

Does the A7 system really have room for two card slots?

They are pretty small cameras/computers!

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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #88 on: June 14, 2015, 07:20:34 am »

Full size sample pic:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stojaphotography/18734141725/sizes/o/


Software - ILCE-7RM2 v0.01
Date and Time (Modified) - 2015:05:04 09:31:37
ISO Speed - 100
Lens Model - FE 16-35mm F4 ZA OSS
Long Exposure Noise Reduction - On (dark subtracted)






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BrianVS

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #89 on: June 14, 2015, 09:17:29 am »

It would be interesting to know what portion of an SD card actually fails. With storage as high-density as it is- likely the Non-Volatile portion itself. It would be interesting to see a single memory card with a very simple/high-reliability "Mux" that performs a redundant store on the card, a Prime and Backup. In event of failure detected with parity, switch to the backup.

It would also be interesting to know what environmental conditions cause a card to fail. I've read accounts of being stored in close proximity to a Cell phone causing problems. It seems that other people leave the phones turned on even of they are not making an out-going phone call.

As far as the A7 series being a serious camera, they need to have lossless storage of raw data. It makes a pretty picture, nice to look at. Want to really push an image or use it for technical work, forget it.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 09:20:05 am by BrianVS »
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jjj

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #90 on: June 14, 2015, 09:51:04 am »

Card failure is catastrophic if shooting professionally or even personally, losing your images is the worst outcome regardless of pro status.
You could lose your camera as well as your images.

etc etc
You could make silly irrelevant comments too, oh wait you just did.
I wouldn't really care if I lost my cameras if my data can be elsewhere and by having two cards they can be in two separate places, even before backing up to HDs.
Cards fail on a depressingly regular basis regardless of how careful you are, camera gear doesn't tend to vanish at quite the same rate and not at all if you are careful.
If camera disappeared whilst I am shooting with card in it, then chances are I have bigger issues than the shoot itself.
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jjj

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2015, 09:55:42 am »

Isaac,

Sigh...

Feel free to add a "high end" before camera if that helps you understand what I meant.

Cameras are designed taking into account the most demanding usage among those of the target camera users. That defines the market positioning of a camera. So my statement doesn't in any way apply to all the camera users, nor to all the potential users of the a7rII, but it applies to all the high end cameras - including the a7rII - that are likely to be put in the hands of photographers not willing to take the risk to lose images because of a memory card failure.

Hence the high end addition.

Either Sony doesn't intend the a7rII to be used for critical applications and it would therefore not be a high end camera, or they messed up. My take is that they messed up. Comments in this thread lead me to think that I am not alone to feel that way.

But you are just being picky and cluttering a thread in the process, just for the sake of being picky, aren't you? ;)
I specifically addressed that point by saying
"Card failure is catastrophic if shooting professionally or even personally, losing your images is the worst outcome regardless of pro status. Now seeing as this is a flagship camera which may tempt pros to use the Sony system, it should have been a higher priority."
and then Isaac omitted the second sentence when replying to statement which gave accurate context to the reason why it's absence is worthy of commenting on. When a single slot wouldn't raise an eyebrow if this were a mere low level consumer camera.
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Manoli

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #92 on: June 14, 2015, 10:00:51 am »

If camera disappeared whilst I am shooting with card in it, then chances are I have bigger issues than the shoot itself.

Now that made me laugh !
Nice one, Jeremy.

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jjj

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #93 on: June 14, 2015, 10:08:11 am »

Well built-in wi-fi for one, but that wasn't the key point I was making. If there was a cam I wanted, for it's cam qualities, I wouldn't be deterred by only one card slot - I'd look for alternative back up and security strategies. Leica M's being a case in point.
If you'd seen as many card failures as I have and also lost critical and irreplaceable footage for a documentary as a result, I think your priorities may be very different.   :-\
There are some very attractive cameras out there for a variety different purposes, but now that other cameras have dual slots they suddenly look a bit 'uglier' in comparison.

Regarding Phase cameras and similar only having one slot - they get used in very different ways to a camera used by say a photojournalist or sports photography, so far less of an issue. Tethering is kind of normal and also the sort of work they are used for can simply be reshot if unusually tethering wasn't done.

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jjj

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #94 on: June 14, 2015, 10:08:54 am »

Now that made me laugh !
Nice one, Jeremy.
  ;D
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Manoli

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #95 on: June 14, 2015, 10:13:20 am »

Want to really push an image or use it for technical work, forget it.

Not going to argue the point with you, we all have different requirements - but I'd point out that cbarrett adopted the A7r for (the majority?) of his architectural work in lieu of his IQ260.



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BrianVS

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2015, 10:19:55 am »

If your cards are failing on a regular basis- I would be buying different cards from multiple manufacturers, looking at how they are stored, etc. I've never had a PNY card or memory stick fail. I tend to stich with smaller cards, 8GByte. Lower density, less stored per card.

The 80MByte internal SCSI drive in the Kodak DCS200ir is still working after 22 years, same with the 1GByte drive in my computer at work, about the same age. I keep the latter in the computer to be the second copy for source code. There is something to be said regarding Bit Density and Reliability.
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jjj

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #97 on: June 14, 2015, 11:06:26 am »

If your cards are failing on a regular basis- I would be buying different cards from multiple manufacturers, looking at how they are stored, etc. I've never had a PNY card or memory stick fail. I tend to stich with smaller cards, 8GByte. Lower density, less stored per card.
Smaller cards also mean more frequent changes, so then there's possibility of physical loss. Which is probably greater than failure, particularly with smaller cards. Some of which eject themselves with great force across room.  :o
Also missing shots through cards running out can be an issue and if you use any video at all, then 32GB cards tend to be a minimum size. I simply avoid Sandisk or other flaky brands and I've bought Hoodman cards when in the US, sadly hard to find here in UK.
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Manoli

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2015, 11:11:07 am »

If you'd seen as many card failures as I have and also lost critical and irreplaceable footage for a documentary as a result, I think your priorities may be very different.  

Jeremy,

That I may have been more fortunate than you (clearly) doesn't change the severity of data loss. Nor are my priorities when it comes to data storage, necessarily different to yours.

My point is that a second card slot, isn't the b-all and end all of data security. It may add an additional level of safety against a card failure (rare) or a fault of the cam writing to one card (rarer) but I wouldn't gamble the kitchen sink on it.

My go-to 'camera-case' backup setup is a MacBook Air with two external 512GB SSD's. I chimp often, just to check that the cam reads and writes to the card, alternate and offload files to the SSD's frequently when I'm not tethered (rare). Perhaps OTT in your book, not mine. To each his own, many degrees of data security, but in my book the second card slot is scant comfort. When I had the D800 I never used it. I'd choose a cam that that tethers rather than one that only offers two slots any day.

But I certainly accept that for some disciplines (sports in particular, pj also) a second drive is more 'de rigeur' than others. But even there, I'd suggest that real-time wi-fi transfer is more the way forward. We've seen the first steps in that direction, both from PhaseOne and Sony (amongst others) - I hope it accelerates.

In the meantime, all those OM-D, GH-4 and other MILC users, seem to be surviving on just the one slot. As I said in my original post - if I wanted the cam, for the cam's sake - I wouldn't be deterred by the single card, I'd look for an alternate safety strategy.

Best,
M

ps
Just saw your post - your dreaded Sandisk is my preferred marque!
Two slots won't solve our quandary ..


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Manoli

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Re: Sony a7r II announced...
« Reply #99 on: June 14, 2015, 11:15:48 am »

... particularly with smaller cards. Some of which eject themselves with great force across room.  :o

Last time I looked SD cards weren't sell-propelled - so it's either the cam or you beating on the eject button with excessive vigour  ;D

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