Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: davidgp on June 10, 2015, 01:53:13 pm
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Looks like Sony did not want Leica to have the day for themselves, they just announced the Sony a7r II
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8917769536/sony-alpha-a7r-ii-has-42-4mp-on-full-frame-bsi-cmos-sensor
Highlights:
42.4 MP
BSI CMOS Sensor (first time in a full-frame, waiting to see the quality of it...)
399 Phase Detection Autofocus points
4k internal video recording
EFCS
$3200
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no 50mp though... which leaves Canon users with something to boast about when nothing else to discuss
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The specs look great. I'll anxiously await the hands on reviews and tests.
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Anxiously awaiting sensor tests.
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it is a bigger camera...8 ounces heavier
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it is a bigger camera...8 ounces heavier
at the same time if I buy it then I 'd not have money left for beer... that will compensate the workload
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it is a bigger camera...8 ounces heavier
Like the A7 to A7 II it has to make space for IBIS system and looking at the photographs it looks like it has the same physical design with the bigger handgrip, so more weight it is expected...
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We should have one of the first cameras and maybe even a pre-production unit. We'll keep you posted. Now things get interesting.
Kevin Raber
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We should have one of the first cameras and maybe even a pre-production unit. We'll keep you posted. Now things get interesting.
Kevin Raber
I'm looking forward to your impressions!!!!
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We should have one of the first cameras and maybe even a pre-production unit. We'll keep you posted. Now things get interesting.
Kevin Raber
Nice to know Kevin. I'm thinking that this could be the camera that gives a bit of rest to my quite old Canon 5D Mark II... if you take requests for the review, I mainly do landscape photography with manual focus using liveview... so resolution, dynamic range, and things like focus peaking for helping with manual focus are my main interests...
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This seems like the perfect carry around camera.
Cheers,
Bernard
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The Canon 5DS suddenly dropped in stock following this announcement. I am trying hard to justify my pre-order of the Canon now.
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With 42MPixels- they need to use a lossless RAW format.
Is there any information on the compression scheme used?
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This seems like the perfect carry around camera.
Cheers,
Bernard
Already the under-muscled cheese eating surrender monkey is dissing his loyal Nippon Kogaku companion. Soon he will call the Zeiss Otus a heavy and cumbersome anachronism :)
Edmund
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The faithless flying frenchman is binning his nippon kogakku. :)
I don't believe that my 400mm f2.8 E FL will perform as well on the new Sony, so not quite yet... ;)
Not to mention the fact that I am not french. ;D
But there are clearly some applications for which I expect the a7rII to be a bit superior to my trusted D810, mostly because it is more compact. Does it justify spending 5000 US$? I am not quite sure right now.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I don't believe that my 400mm f2.8 E FL will perform as well on the new Sony, so not quite yet... ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
Actually, it looks like it may, maybe even better when it comes to focus. No joke.
Phase AF points all over the main sensor, and new metabones adapters that can AF C and N, it seems.
Sony have really pulled out all the stops this time, they are accelerating like crazy.
Edmund
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Actually, it looks like it may, maybe even better when it comes to focus. No joke.
Phase AF points all over the main sensor, and new metabones adapters that can AF C and N, it seems.
I have only seen comments about C, are you positive that it applies to N also?
Thank you.
cheers,
Bernard
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Not to mention the fact that I am not french. ;D
Spoken like a true Belgian ;D
I suspect Edmund is referring to the SmartAdapter which is C only.
The Ultra-whatever-booster is both C and N.
M
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But usb2?
Obviously no tethering in real word shooting. Huge issue for ad guys
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Spoken like a true Belgian ;D
I suspect Edmund is referring to the SmartAdapter which is C only.
The Ultra-whatever-booster is both C and N.
M
From dpreview: "One of the most impressive features of the a7R II is its autofocus system. 399 phase-detection AF points cover 45% of the frame, which means over 60% coverage in either horizontal or vertical directions in the frame. That gives it more coverage than any full-frame camera out there. PDAF will work even with third-party lenses via existing adapters, including in continuous AF tracking mode.
This is potentially a huge deal - especially for Canon users. We've used an a7R II with a Canon 24-70mm lens and a Metabones adapter, and focus is indeed very fast indeed. We'll be looking at this in more depth as soon as we have a production sample camera, but for now, we're highly impressed. Canon should expect some cancelled EOS 5DS orders..."
Your interpretation is as good as mine. I suspect both C and N will change their lenses to preserve lock-in.
Edmund
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This sure looks like my next camera. The replacement for the D800E.
Stand-out features in order of importance for me:
- sensor of at least d800 level
- flip screen
- electronic shutter
- ibis
- wifi
It doesn't hurt that it comes in a compact body with on sensor phase detect af but that is just bonus. Nikon might be forgiven for no ibis but a flip screen and wifi is just a must have.
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This sure looks like my next camera. The replacement for the D800E.
Brilliant, the more people write that faster we are going to be a D5x! ;)
Jokes aside, this new Sony is very tempting!
Cheers,
Bernard
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Now that the sensor is backside illuminated, could the a7r mkii now take wide angle rangefinder lenses without color fringing on the sensor edges? Using Leica M and Zeiss ZM i have color fringing on anything 35mm and below and I even get color fringing on my DSLR 21mm Zeiss lens with metabones adapter (but manageable).
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With 42MPixels- they need to use a lossless RAW format.
Is there any information on the compression scheme used?
Apparently still using the same 11 bit lossy compression.
Sony are getting there but I'm not tempted until the range of native lenses is better. Compressing the raw could be deal breaker, but I can you see any effect of this in print?
This may sound weird but the shutter volume is one thing I really care about.
David
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Still only holds a single memory card ?
Damn, almost had me..
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Apparently still using the same 11 bit lossy compression.
Sony are getting there but I'm not tempted until the range of native lenses is better. Compressing the raw could be deal breaker, but I can you see any effect of this in print?
This may sound weird but the shutter volume is one thing I really care about.
David
http://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/sony-craw-arw2-posterization-detection
Hard to believe that the world's "best full-frame sensor" will be subjected to a lossy compression scheme. The compression efficiency isn't much better than one that is truly lossless.
Hopefully Sony will give the option in firmware to use truly lossless, like Nikon does. OR sell the sensor to a company that can quit destroying the image.
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Still only holds a single memory card ?
Damn, almost had me..
Really??? How is it possible to still produce cameras in 2015 with a single memory card with all the risk it represents?
I had problems with high end SD cards twice since Jan and got saved by the CF... I am still tempted, but the scope is reducing to un-important trips. :-[
Cheers,
Bernard
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We've been asking Sony to do exactly that for two years and they haven't. So I doubt that they will. Sony's firmware updates rarely bring anything other than obvious bug fixes to the party and then they aren't real good at releasing them. For example the 1.20 firmware bug fix was released in Japan a couple of months ago and was never introduced anywhere else even though the bug exists for all cameras. If you want the update, you need to get it off a Japanese only Sony site. Sony is pretty clueless when it comes to after sale product support compared to any other camera manufacturer. Very innovative products but the second they come to market they pretty much forget about them and move on to the next thing. I like my a7R a lot and will probably buy an a7R2 but that is with the understanding of expecting nothing whatsoever after the sale. Also be prepared for virtually any damage being deemed "not repairable" even though it is. There's an article on that on the LensRentals blog.
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We've been asking Sony to do exactly that for two years and they haven't. So I doubt that they will. Sony's firmware updates rarely bring anything other than obvious bug fixes to the party and then they aren't real good at releasing them. For example the 1.20 firmware bug fix was released in Japan a couple of months ago and was never introduced anywhere else even though the bug exists for all cameras. If you want the update, you need to get it off a Japanese only Sony site. Sony is pretty clueless when it comes to after sale product support compared to any other camera manufacturer. Very innovative products but the second they come to market they pretty much forget about them and move on to the next thing. I like my a7R a lot and will probably buy an a7R2 but that is with the understanding of expecting nothing whatsoever after the sale. Also be prepared for virtually any damage being deemed "not repairable" even though it is. There's an article on that on the LensRentals blog.
Very good point. I would not expect too much after launch. It will be interesting if Sony makes a firmware update for multi shot similar to how the Olympus works. Talk is it could be done since the new sensors have the 5 axis stabilization.
Paul
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Very aggressive spec list and one I would have expected for the A9. I won't be buying but having this mid-2015 as a D800E owner I can be sure my next camera will not be a DSLR and my slr lens purchases will be modest.
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We should have one of the first cameras and maybe even a pre-production unit. We'll keep you posted. Now things get interesting.
Kevin Raber
Hi Kevin,
When you test this camera could you please shoot action shots of people? Not asking you to go to the NBA finals. Just folks walking. I'm satisfied with my 5D Mark III and have the 5Dsr on pre-order. However if this new Sony matches the usability for documentary style photography I may get one.
Also interested in the camera's EVF.
Thank you,
Jeffery
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Very aggressive spec list and one I would have expected for the A9. I won't be buying but having this mid-2015 as a D800E owner I can be sure my next camera will not be a DSLR and my slr lens purchases will be modest.
But.... if like the D800, Nikon uses this Sony sensor then you've got the best of both worlds with the exception that the DSLR weighs a lot more.
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The Canon 5DS suddenly dropped in stock following this announcement. I am trying hard to justify my pre-order of the Canon now.
I would not worry too much. I think you will be happy with the 5DS. That is a nice system.
In the photography world there is an intrinsic problem with photographing vegetation over barriers. For some reason the hue never comes out accurate. ;D
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Apparently still using the same 11 bit lossy compression.
Sony are getting there but I'm not tempted until the range of native lenses is better. Compressing the raw could be deal breaker, but I can you see any effect of this in print?
This may sound weird but the shutter volume is one thing I really care about.
David
After using the Fuji as a "casual" camera for a while, I'm really attracted to the lighter weight and ability to pre-chimp with the OVF the Sony would give me over my D800e (the "serious" camera) while retaining the high pixel count FF aspect of the Nikon.
But I also would like to know if the 11-bit lossy compression actually makes a difference in real-life shooting (I generally shoot in various forms of daylight and never above 800 ISO with the D800e, so that would be my baseline for comparison).
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Nice to know Kevin. I'm thinking that this could be the camera that gives a bit of rest to my quite old Canon 5D Mark II...
Same here. While I'm not sure I want to buy another camera body or jump ship (due to $$ and all my Canon glass), I hope the review will put this possibility into perspective. Or maybe a 2nd one that addresses the dreaded upgrade/update dilemma for those of us who've been using one of the other 'big two' manufacturers for years.
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While I'm not sure I want to buy another camera body or jump ship (due to $$ and all my Canon glass), I hope the review will put this possibility into perspective. Or maybe a 2nd one that addresses the dreaded upgrade/update dilemma for those of us who've been using one of the other 'big two' manufacturers for years.
Guys,
It's not an either/or situation. The secret to MILC is that your legacy glass is more than just 'usable' on the new bodies. Canon shooters even have the benefit of the new Metabones AF adapter - though the Sony's MF is so good that you'll soon become addicted to (manual) critical focus.
That is unless you really need AF, but do you ?
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But I also would like to know if the 11-bit lossy compression actually makes a difference in real-life shooting (I generally shoot in various forms of daylight and never above 800 ISO with the D800e, so that would be my baseline for comparison).
I've never noticed it. From the reports, postings and general chatter I suspect it's only possible (not certain) that you might notice it in astro-photography.
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That is unless you really need AF, but do you ?
Be nice but not an absolute must. I've was shooting long, long before auto focus. In fact I shot the entire 1984 Olympics for the LAOOC and no such technology existed at the time.
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I wonder how difficult it would be for Sony to make a grip that not only has another battery, but another card slot for those times when you want dual card slots?
Has anyone ever made a grip with another card slot or data port?
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no 50mp though... which leaves Canon users with something to boast about when nothing else to discuss
LOL 42 or 50MP...same damn thing. Pretty sure, I would discriminate on quality of the output or functionality rather than MP count.
I suspect there will be times when my D810 would be better than this and times when this camera would outperform. No enough here for me to leave my current gear, but love continued improvement and increased competitive pressures.
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LOL 42 or 50MP...same damn thing.
Close enough and I'd settle for even less with more dynamic range or better high ISO captures.
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Close enough and I'd settle for even less with more dynamic range or better high ISO captures.
I understand that BSI's challenge is DR. We'll see.
Jack
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Backlash within hours of announcement! Good job! ;-)
You have never had a problem with a memory card?
Cheers,
Bernard
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This represents a significant step forward in camera technology, the culmination of many years research and significant investment in a single package. All innovative ideas seen in one form or another, reaching maturity in a single package. BSI, high sensitivity, Evf, high resolution, high speed data transfer, on sensor af technology, ability to attach all manufacturers lenses with high speed auto focus support etc... Don't under estimate what a significant camera this is.
Canon will not be able to respond to this overnight, not without major investment and R&D, Sony level investment in sensor is very significant. Most image sensor scientists agree Sony is 3-5 years ahead of canon in sensor technology design. This gap will be more and more obvious going forward, consider how short a time sony has achieved this strategy. This camera was no accident, shows considerable forsight and will. If I had canon pre order I would cancel and attach my L series glass to the a7rii instead.
It's not just the camera, it's what it represents.
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After using the Fuji as a "casual" camera for a while, I'm really attracted to the lighter weight and ability to pre-chimp with the OVF the Sony would give me over my D800e (the "serious" camera) while retaining the high pixel count FF aspect of the Nikon.
But I also would like to know if the 11-bit lossy compression actually makes a difference in real-life shooting (I generally shoot in various forms of daylight and never above 800 ISO with the D800e, so that would be my baseline for comparison).
I know what you mean. The Fuji is now my "serious" camera.
Jim Kasson has reported on whether you can see Sony raw compression artefacts at http://blog.kasson.com/?p=4876
His conclusion: "I think that the possibility of visible artifacts in a7 and a7R images due to Sony’s raw compression is remote, but not nonexistent. I don’t plan on worrying about it myself. In my mind it’s nowhere near as likely to damage images in an objectionable way as the a7R shutter shock."
He also has an interesting blog (http://blog.kasson.com/?p=4867) speculating on the reason Sony use lossy compression.
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This represents a significant step forward in camera technology, the culmination of many years research and significant investment in a single package.
Hey, I like what Sony is doing overall with the A7x series…but this is too marketeer-speak for my taste. IMO we should find out how the A7rii performs in the real world before annointing it.
-Dave-
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Hey, I like what Sony is doing overall with the A7x series…but this is too marketeer-speak for my taste. IMO we should find out how the A7rii performs in the real world before annointing it.
-Dave-
True, but if it is any close to the a7II in terms of performance, then it will be an amazing performer if I believe what my very knowledgeable formerly Canon shooting friend is telling me.
Cheers,
Bernard
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It's not just the camera, it's what it represents.
Seriously? Don't get me wrong it looks like it has some truly excellent capabilities but this isn't the second coming of Jesus here, there are many very basic issues that Sony has overlooked in past versions as well as this one. It isn't the dawn of a new age it's just a camera system that has many flaws but will certainly be able to produce excellent results.
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Hi,
What caused me not buying the A7r was:
Lack of EFCS
Lack of contrast detecting AF
Sony has fixed those two issues and improved some other aspects. So it may not be the second coming, but it is a real improvement.
Best regards
Erik
True, but if it is any close to the a7II in terms of performance, then it will be an amazing performer if I believe what my very knowledgeable formerly Canon shooting friend is telling me.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I'm with davidgp and digitaldog....
I held on to my 5D2 with a PhaseOne on the occasional luxury product shoot need...and I watched the D801E and the A7R pass by.
The tools I have are still superior for the jobs they do.
Does the 50DRS have 11bit lossy? will the A7R2 be lossy in final production? I forget these numbers when I step away and shoot....
These are the 2 and maybe other factors that would finally rest my Phase MF back, because so far pixel count hasn't done it! Maybe its DR, or what ever it is....
Maybe this A7R2 will be it....It looks like, I can slap what glass I need on .
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Sony traditionally made Video cameras. Lossy compression is just the way of life for them. They do not come from a still-photography background and would not understand why lossless storage of the image is important to some photographers. What I'll never understand is why Leica has the same problem. DNG-8 destroyed the performance of the M8, and releasing the M246 as a 12-bit camera is an admission that the sensor is just not up to producing an image that is uninterpolated.
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I haven't looked at the numbers but is 42 mpix chosen to create 8k stills?
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Looks nice, but I'll wait for the A8/A9/whatever they decide to call it, to see what they manage to pull off in terms of resolution (and if the firmware gets adjusted to support lossless RAW, as a Sony response appears to suggest).
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You have never had a problem with a memory card?
I mistakenly formated a memory card. Once ;-)
[I had not needed to trigger sensor-cleaning, but I was tired-out and decided to trigger sensor-cleaning and somehow selected format instead -- they are not even on the same menu page.]
No I have never had a memory card fail; but my amusement was with the cataclysmic terms in which that possibility was presented, as-if that same single feature should be the overwhelming consideration for every other potential camera buyer.
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Just reading over some things...Since my first digital cam the Olympus C2500L I have had 3 CF card fails. 1 of them years back, and most photos were corrupted. And 2 in the past 3 years. The 2nd time the CF just diffent work off the bat, so no loss there. 3rd time I was running out of room and needed to swap the card from a 1Ds to a 5D, and the entire card was bricked after I started shooting with the 5D. After a format all was good with the card. ALL images were lost! All concert footage for the 20-30min was gone. I'm not sure how dual would help this situation, but I think it would be great to right jpgs to one and raw to the other. Maybe just for preview with a in camera effect to show(?).
I think Canon's all use 12bit or now 14bit. They are lossless correct? And for the A7R1, were the images lossy11bit? How did that effect the images? How is that portion effecting images? Shooting watches I have to make sure each detail is in the utmost clarity, so I use the MF. I was hoping the A7R2 would be a great update to my less than 40mpix MF. Perhaps not?
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I was really interested in this camera as I have 24 f2.8, 35 f2.0, 50 f1.4, and 100 f2.0 non-L primes for my Canon 5d Mk1.
I went to the metabones website, and it seems that none of these lenses will auto focus on their adapter.
Anyone know more about this?
I would really love a 42mp camera that can shoot some movies on occasion with my EF prime lenses. To buy this camera and a new set of lenses would be very expensive!
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wondering if they will release the in camera app for multi-shot and create a monstor size file for some application use such as repro or landscape work?
aaron
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Look at the links to Jim Kasson's blog a few comments upstream.
I would wait to see what the new sensor characteristics are like, different technology. Probably 11-bit lossy, but we don't know.
In my geekitude, I love the technology of gear. However, when I step outside, I love my manual lenses and Canon 6D. I have been shooting wildflowers recently with 6D and manual focus Voigtlander 125 f/2.5 - partly to learn about them (whole-plant shot showing leaf and flower arrangement) and partly for beauty. I have found that pixel peeping of the closer shots in the 1:2 range yields unseen-at-time-of-shot submillimeter pollinators. These wouldn't be great for art show sales, but for me and my fellow nature geeks, the pollinators are a bonus.
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I mistakenly formated a memory card. Once ;-)
No I have never had a memory card fail; but my amusement was with the cataclysmic terms in which that possibility was presented, as-if that same single feature should be the overwhelming consideration for every other potential camera buyer.
You should format a memory card every time you put it back into the camera. Do not just delete the images.
There is no question that CF is more durable than SD. You can bend a pin in a reader with CF if the reader is poorly designed, but the real failure point in CF is the controller chip.
When indicating one has had failures, it is important to at least indicate brand. If you buy cheap CF cards and they fail that is different than having a quality card fail and non comparable between 2 different cards on quality or different types of cards. We must compare like to like.
I've been using memory cards and CF in particular for about 20 years. I have had one card 'fail' and it was more a degradation in speed that would probably have ended in failure so I disposed of the card. This includes twice sending a card through the washer and dryer with no loss of data. I must admit to never having a SD card failure, but I have much less history with them. I only use top of the line at the time of purchase Lexar or Sandisk cards in my cameras. That would be the Lexar 1066X Professional and Sandisk Extreme Pro cards at my last purchase.
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I have had a Transcend 8GByte 10x card fail without warning, completely unrecoverable.
I had two Sandisk 8GBytes UHS-1 card fail, the second was a replacement from Sandisk- so no chance it was counterfeit. The latter- I formatted with the utility from SDformatter from the SD organization.
I have a couple of CF cards fail, Sandisk among them, used as boot disks for embedded systems.
I also have some 110MByte PCMCIA cards that are over 20 years old, work fine.
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hehe, yes.
So...the A7R2 should have superior image quality to the older A7R. I never ended up testing the A7R to compare in studio setting vs a MF back in the same or lesser mpixel range. But if it can compete in the fine detail area of things, it would be great to have the flexible use of the A7R. My Canon would still be my goto for anything a bit rough on the gear.
Now with 41+ mpixels...the big question I would have is the buffer! this was the problem years back when they made mpixel jumps, then it matured with fat buffers and speeds to move files fast.
So if we know the A7R's buffer, which we might have easily on hand, and unless the related parts and sw are updated, it could be taking a hit.
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I always format the memory card using the camera. We are talking off-topic about memory cards used in cameras to store images, aren't we?
If a card cannot be formatted using the utility from the organization that sets the standard, it's a poorly designed card- at least not designed to spec.
Since the thread ventured into single-slot vs double-slot, the subject of Card failure is certainly on topic.
In my 34 years of using Digital imagers- I've seen media failure, but only one time that I wish that my M9 had two card slots. Lost a great picture of me posing with Sully and Mike at Disneyworld. The 7-track mag tape used with the Infrared Imager that had extra bits in the inter-record-gap, recovered those images by running the tape backwards.
If you are not interested, just skip the relevant posts.
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If you are not interested, just skip the relevant posts.
How can we tell if comments are irrelevant without reading them :-)
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I wonder how difficult it would be for Sony to make a grip that not only has another battery, but another card slot for those times when you want dual card slots?
Has anyone ever made a grip with another card slot or data port?
Time to start filming your promotional Kickstarter video for this idea.....
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Backlash within hours of announcement! Good job! ;-)
You have never had a problem with a memory card?
I have had way too many and single slots do give me cause for concern.
No I have never had a memory card fail; but my amusement was with the cataclysmic terms in which that possibility was presented, as-if that same single feature should be the overwhelming consideration for every other potential camera buyer.
Card failure is catastrophic if shooting professionally or even personally, losing your images is the worst outcome regardless of pro status. Now seeing as this is a flagship camera which may tempt pros to use the Sony system, it should have been a higher priority.
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3rd time I was running out of room and needed to swap the card from a 1Ds to a 5D, and the entire card was bricked after I started shooting with the 5D. After a format all was good with the card. ALL images were lost! All concert footage for the 20-30min was gone.
If you formatted it to carry on using it, then obviously you are going to lose any shots already captured on card. I'd have not carried on with card at all if it had already given me problems. I would have put it to one side and taken it home to recover shots and then binned it.
I'm not sure how dual would help this situation, but I think it would be great to right jpgs to one and raw to the other. Maybe just for preview with a in camera effect to show
Record raw to both, that way if one card dies, you lose nothing. You can shoot raw and still have camera effect previews as there is a small jpeg contained within the raw file so as to do be able to do previews.
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You should format a memory card every time you put it back into the camera. Do not just delete the images.
Someone far more knowledgeable than I on a ProPhotography forum I use, wrote about how that is actually not the best thing to do. He explained in great detail as to why. Can't recall as to where to find it sadly as it made for interesting and quite convincing reading.
When indicating one has had failures, it is important to at least indicate brand. If you buy cheap CF cards and they fail that is different than having a quality card fail and non comparable between 2 different cards on quality or different types of cards. We must compare like to like.
I've been using memory cards and CF in particular for about 20 years. I have had one card 'fail' and it was more a degradation in speed that would probably have ended in failure so I disposed of the card. This includes twice sending a card through the washer and dryer with no loss of data. I must admit to never having a SD card failure, but I have much less history with them. I only use top of the line at the time of purchase Lexar or Sandisk cards in my cameras. That would be the Lexar 1066X Professional and Sandisk Extreme Pro cards at my last purchase.
I've tended to buy the top model cards from reputable places and yet had lots of failed Sandisks, CF, SD and Micro SD and in different cameras. Won't go near them now particularly as their after sales attitude was to tell us to go away and stop bothering them. Lexar at least recovered all the data off a card that failed at no charge.
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Whatever imaging & storage technology we use, there will always be disaster stories. People have had large-scale film shoots mostly or completely wiped by misadjusted X-ray machines. Or by developing screwups a la Robert Capa on D Day. Some storage cards will crap out whether on their own or via abuse/misuse. You accept the level of risk you can live with and choose your gear accordingly. If the Sony is too risky according to your criteria then it's not the camera system for you.
-Dave-
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Perhaps you should just obsolete what you remember from the first 15 years ;-)
Not when it remain valid. And my wife reminds me I had a Sandisk 16GB Extreme Pro SD card fail and was replaced by Sandisk. No image loss, but when I put it back into the camera, it would not recognize it. So in 20 years 1 almost CF failure and in 2 years of SD use, 1 failure.
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I have been using the same 16 G SD card on each Canon camera and the same 4 G card on the Sigma DP Merrill - I do a low level format option in the Canon cameras, they give you a choice, low level or not. At one point I had heard that that was the most reliable and simple way to handle cards. The spare cards (a 16 G for the Canons and a 4G for the Sigma DP Merrill) rarely get used. I suppose that it is a matter of luck if a card fails. The B and H reviews have some failures for each brand and grade of card (except the fancy Hoodman card).
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No I have never had a memory card fail; but my amusement was with the cataclysmic terms in which that possibility was presented, as-if that same single feature should be the overwhelming consideration for every other potential camera buyer.
I believe it is an important consideration for anyone shooting images that are not easily recreated at a different time.
As far as I am concerned, that is 90% of what I shoot.
In my 15 years experience with digital, memory cards have been by far the weakest link, not to say the only link likely to fail. The biggest problem being that most failures are not detected at the moment of shooting, but after the fact.
This doesn't change the fact that the a7rII is a very appealing camera, especially in combination with a Cambo Actus. But the single slot will be a major pain because it will force me to bring along a surface 3 to do images back up and check in the field which is incredbly impractical. So yes, I really think Sony blew it on that important aspect and my frustration is the result of my interest in the camera.
I haven't written anything about other buyers as far as I recall, please don't put those words in my mouth.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Card failure is catastrophic if shooting professionally or even personally, losing your images is the worst outcome regardless of pro status.
You could lose your camera as well as your images.
etc etc
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You have never had a problem with a memory card?I have had way too many and single slots do give me cause for concern.
Card failure is catastrophic if shooting professionally or even personally, losing your images is the worst outcome regardless of pro status. Now seeing as this is a flagship camera which may tempt pros to use the Sony system, it should have been a higher priority.
+1
It may be a low-occurrence event, but it is catastrophic when it happens. Adding a second slot is (relatively) cheap insurance.
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I understood - "How is it possible to still produce cameras in 2015 with a single memory card with all the risk it represents?" - to cover any camera made by any manufacturer for any customer.
Was that not your meaning?
Isaac,
Sigh...
Feel free to add a "high end" before camera if that helps you understand what I meant.
Cameras are designed taking into account the most demanding usage among those of the target camera users. That defines the market positioning of a camera. So my statement doesn't in any way apply to all the camera users, nor to all the potential users of the a7rII, but it applies to all the high end cameras - including the a7rII - that are likely to be put in the hands of photographers not willing to take the risk to lose images because of a memory card failure.
Hence the high end addition.
Either Sony doesn't intend the a7rII to be used for critical applications and it would therefore not be a high end camera, or they messed up. My take is that they messed up. Comments in this thread lead me to think that I am not alone to feel that way.
But you are just being picky and cluttering a thread in the process, just for the sake of being picky, aren't you? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Isaac,
Sigh...
Feel free to add a "high end" before camera if that helps you understand what I meant.
Cameras are designed taking into account the most demanding usage among those of the target camera users. That defines the market positioning of a camera. So my statement doesn't in any way apply to all the camera users, nor to all the potential users of the a7rII, but it applies to all the high end cameras - including the a7rII - that are likely to be put in the hands of photographers not willing to take the risk to lose images because of a memory card failure.
Hence the high end addition.
Either Sony doesn't intend the a7rII to be used for critical applications and it would therefore not be a high end camera, or they messed up. My take is that they messed up. Comments in this thread lead me to think that I am not alone to feel that way.
But you are just being picky and cluttering a thread in the process, just for the sake of being picky, aren't you? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
They expect video users to be running an Odyssey or Shogun.
Edmund
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They expect video users to be running an Odyssey or Shogun.
I am sure they do, but the a7rII isn't marketed only as a video camera.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I am sure they do, but the a7rII isn't marketed only as a video camera.
Cheers,
Bernard
Without wanting to be nastier than usual, I'd still venture that no CURRENT Sony camera is marketed for STILLS pros.
People who carry these for stills usually are worried about the camera breaking, not about a card dying and their images being lost, or the contacts corroding.
The A7s and the current A7II are clearly also intended for the video community; but for people who are happy with having a cheap and very capable solution for specialist needs, eg low light for the A7s.
Edmund
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Without wanting to be nastier than usual, I'd still venture that no CURRENT Sony camera is marketed for STILLS pros.
Sony did for sure generate significant expectations among photographers due to the spec sheet of the a7rII, but logic dictate that you may be correct.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi,
Sony used to assign a nine in the camera name to indicate a top of the line model. Think Dynax 9, Sony Alpha 900 and Sony Alpha 99. Only the Alpha 99 had usable dual slots, though.
AFAIK the Phase One P-series didn't have dual slots, so it is very clear that level of system may do with a single memory card.
Best regards
Erik
Isaac,
Sigh...
Feel free to add a "high end" before camera if that helps you understand what I meant.
Cameras are designed taking into account the most demanding usage among those of the target camera users. That defines the market positioning of a camera. So my statement doesn't in any way apply to all the camera users, nor to all the potential users of the a7rII, but it applies to all the high end cameras - including the a7rII - that are likely to be put in the hands of photographers not willing to take the risk to lose images because of a memory card failure.
Hence the high end addition.
Either Sony doesn't intend the a7rII to be used for critical applications and it would therefore not be a high end camera, or they messed up. My take is that they messed up. Comments in this thread lead me to think that I am not alone to feel that way.
But you are just being picky and cluttering a thread in the process, just for the sake of being picky, aren't you? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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AFAIK the Phase One P-series didn't have dual slots, so it is very clear that level of system may do with a single memory card.
Erik,
Indeed, a bit hard to understand for me as well. Now many serious shooters use them thethered, so the impact may overall be less.
Btw, is it still the case with the IQxxx backs?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Either Sony doesn't intend the a7rII to be used for critical applications and it would therefore not be a high end camera, or they messed up. My take is that they messed up. Comments in this thread lead me to think that I am not alone to feel that way.
Bernard,
I'm not sure I follow your rationale on this point. The world is downsizing, it has been for several decades and memory cards aren't immune to this. Yesterday it was CF cards, today more often than not SD cards, tomorrow who knows ? Electrical products are all liable to failure. It's a statistical certainty. Hard drives likewise. SSD's are anticipated to have an even lower statistical certainty than hard drives. In all likelihood they will - time will tell.
If SD cards are considered unreliable / less reliable than CF cards, is that because of their innards or because of their, at first sight, flimsier construction ? If it's the latter then the solution is to beef up the manufacturing quality. I"ve had at least 24 SD cards (the earliest ones of 256MB sizes still work) none failed but then none were subjected to 'inappropriate ' handling - the same can't be said about the cams! (I once lost a cam, fell overboard in 20M of seawater. Had to summon a diver to retrieve it; the cam was doomed but the SD card and all the images on it were recovered).
If manufacturers are starting to abandon the dual card slot, it'll surely be for new tech to replace outdated methods. Much as Apple were the first to abandon the in-built CD drive and the floppy drive(s) before that. I think it's wiser that the user re-think his backup & safety procedures rather than rely on doomed tech. After all it's not such a hindrance - all digital Leica M users have faced that hurdle since the introduction of the M8, but none, AFAIK used that as a criterion for not buying the cam. The days of the pro behemoth Nikon D3x / 4s etc are numbered. I loved the build, feel and quality but the future they ain't. Likewise dual card slots.
I'd no more think of going on a 'never-to-be-repeated' shoot with a single cam any more than I would relying on a single form of backup - dual card slots included.
In the words of George Bernard Shaw:
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”
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If manufacturers are starting to abandon the dual card slot, it'll surely be for new tech to replace outdated methods.
I don't think that this is what's happening.
Nikon has had double slots for many years on both FX and DX top bodies, they were followed by Canon (recently in their 7DII), Pentax,... Sony didn't follow them in this body and they have never provided this before. I understand downsizing as a trend, but I am not sure why Sony didn't have the physical space to add a second slot.
I have zero problem with a new technology replacing double card slots, but I don't see any in the a7rII.
Cheers,
Bernard
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"Either XXX doesn't intend the ZZZ to be used for critical applications and it would therefore not be a high end camera, or they messed up."
Shouldn't the same reasoning apply? (Perhaps there's a flaw in the reasoning.)
Sure, the same reasoning does obviously apply, as clearly stated in my post.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I have zero problem with a new technology replacing double card slots, but I don't see any in the a7rII.
Well built-in wi-fi for one, but that wasn't the key point I was making. If there was a cam I wanted, for it's cam qualities, I wouldn't be deterred by only one card slot - I'd look for alternative back up and security strategies. Leica M's being a case in point.
Best,
Manoli
Edit:
IIRC, Olympus OM-D's, Fuji's, Pana GH-4 et al, also all have just one card slot.
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Sony a700, a900/a850, and a99 all had dual slots (One CF, one MS on the first two, and dual SD on the last). Single-slot only on the a7 series is likely due to pure space saving constraints. A theoretical a9 body would likely have dual slots.
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Expect the A8 or A9 to have dual slots, as well as likely greater battery capacity, burst length, frame rate, AF, etc.
The A7r/A7rII has a great sensor, but the A7r, at least, is basically just a sensor in a box (the A7rII appears to be better).
Think of the A7r as Sony's 5D2 and the A8/A9 as the 1Ds3 - similar sensor, but with many more features in the higher-end model.
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Sony a700, a900/a850, and a99 all had dual slots (One CF, one MS on the first two, and dual SD on the last). Single-slot only on the a7 series is likely due to pure space saving constraints. A theoretical a9 body would likely have dual slots.
Agreed, it really feels like Sony is saving this for their next 59mp/4,500US$ a9r. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Does the A7 system really have room for two card slots?
They are pretty small cameras/computers!
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Full size sample pic:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stojaphotography/18734141725/sizes/o/
Software - ILCE-7RM2 v0.01
Date and Time (Modified) - 2015:05:04 09:31:37
ISO Speed - 100
Lens Model - FE 16-35mm F4 ZA OSS
Long Exposure Noise Reduction - On (dark subtracted)
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It would be interesting to know what portion of an SD card actually fails. With storage as high-density as it is- likely the Non-Volatile portion itself. It would be interesting to see a single memory card with a very simple/high-reliability "Mux" that performs a redundant store on the card, a Prime and Backup. In event of failure detected with parity, switch to the backup.
It would also be interesting to know what environmental conditions cause a card to fail. I've read accounts of being stored in close proximity to a Cell phone causing problems. It seems that other people leave the phones turned on even of they are not making an out-going phone call.
As far as the A7 series being a serious camera, they need to have lossless storage of raw data. It makes a pretty picture, nice to look at. Want to really push an image or use it for technical work, forget it.
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Card failure is catastrophic if shooting professionally or even personally, losing your images is the worst outcome regardless of pro status.
You could lose your camera as well as your images.
etc etc
You could make silly irrelevant comments too, oh wait you just did.
I wouldn't really care if I lost my cameras if my data can be elsewhere and by having two cards they can be in two separate places, even before backing up to HDs.
Cards fail on a depressingly regular basis regardless of how careful you are, camera gear doesn't tend to vanish at quite the same rate and not at all if you are careful.
If camera disappeared whilst I am shooting with card in it, then chances are I have bigger issues than the shoot itself.
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Isaac,
Sigh...
Feel free to add a "high end" before camera if that helps you understand what I meant.
Cameras are designed taking into account the most demanding usage among those of the target camera users. That defines the market positioning of a camera. So my statement doesn't in any way apply to all the camera users, nor to all the potential users of the a7rII, but it applies to all the high end cameras - including the a7rII - that are likely to be put in the hands of photographers not willing to take the risk to lose images because of a memory card failure.
Hence the high end addition.
Either Sony doesn't intend the a7rII to be used for critical applications and it would therefore not be a high end camera, or they messed up. My take is that they messed up. Comments in this thread lead me to think that I am not alone to feel that way.
But you are just being picky and cluttering a thread in the process, just for the sake of being picky, aren't you? ;)
I specifically addressed that point by saying
"Card failure is catastrophic if shooting professionally or even personally, losing your images is the worst outcome regardless of pro status. Now seeing as this is a flagship camera which may tempt pros to use the Sony system, it should have been a higher priority."
and then Isaac omitted the second sentence when replying to statement which gave accurate context to the reason why it's absence is worthy of commenting on. When a single slot wouldn't raise an eyebrow if this were a mere low level consumer camera.
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If camera disappeared whilst I am shooting with card in it, then chances are I have bigger issues than the shoot itself.
Now that made me laugh !
Nice one, Jeremy.
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Well built-in wi-fi for one, but that wasn't the key point I was making. If there was a cam I wanted, for it's cam qualities, I wouldn't be deterred by only one card slot - I'd look for alternative back up and security strategies. Leica M's being a case in point.
If you'd seen as many card failures as I have and also lost critical and irreplaceable footage for a documentary as a result, I think your priorities may be very different. :-\
There are some very attractive cameras out there for a variety different purposes, but now that other cameras have dual slots they suddenly look a bit 'uglier' in comparison.
Regarding Phase cameras and similar only having one slot - they get used in very different ways to a camera used by say a photojournalist or sports photography, so far less of an issue. Tethering is kind of normal and also the sort of work they are used for can simply be reshot if unusually tethering wasn't done.
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Now that made me laugh !
Nice one, Jeremy.
;D
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Want to really push an image or use it for technical work, forget it.
Not going to argue the point with you, we all have different requirements - but I'd point out that cbarrett adopted the A7r for (the majority?) of his architectural work in lieu of his IQ260.
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If your cards are failing on a regular basis- I would be buying different cards from multiple manufacturers, looking at how they are stored, etc. I've never had a PNY card or memory stick fail. I tend to stich with smaller cards, 8GByte. Lower density, less stored per card.
The 80MByte internal SCSI drive in the Kodak DCS200ir is still working after 22 years, same with the 1GByte drive in my computer at work, about the same age. I keep the latter in the computer to be the second copy for source code. There is something to be said regarding Bit Density and Reliability.
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If your cards are failing on a regular basis- I would be buying different cards from multiple manufacturers, looking at how they are stored, etc. I've never had a PNY card or memory stick fail. I tend to stich with smaller cards, 8GByte. Lower density, less stored per card.
Smaller cards also mean more frequent changes, so then there's possibility of physical loss. Which is probably greater than failure, particularly with smaller cards. Some of which eject themselves with great force across room. :o
Also missing shots through cards running out can be an issue and if you use any video at all, then 32GB cards tend to be a minimum size. I simply avoid Sandisk or other flaky brands and I've bought Hoodman cards (http://hoodmanusa.com/cgi/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=0010)when in the US, sadly hard to find here in UK.
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If you'd seen as many card failures as I have and also lost critical and irreplaceable footage for a documentary as a result, I think your priorities may be very different.
Jeremy,
That I may have been more fortunate than you (clearly) doesn't change the severity of data loss. Nor are my priorities when it comes to data storage, necessarily different to yours.
My point is that a second card slot, isn't the b-all and end all of data security. It may add an additional level of safety against a card failure (rare) or a fault of the cam writing to one card (rarer) but I wouldn't gamble the kitchen sink on it.
My go-to 'camera-case' backup setup is a MacBook Air with two external 512GB SSD's. I chimp often, just to check that the cam reads and writes to the card, alternate and offload files to the SSD's frequently when I'm not tethered (rare). Perhaps OTT in your book, not mine. To each his own, many degrees of data security, but in my book the second card slot is scant comfort. When I had the D800 I never used it. I'd choose a cam that that tethers rather than one that only offers two slots any day.
But I certainly accept that for some disciplines (sports in particular, pj also) a second drive is more 'de rigeur' than others. But even there, I'd suggest that real-time wi-fi transfer is more the way forward. We've seen the first steps in that direction, both from PhaseOne and Sony (amongst others) - I hope it accelerates.
In the meantime, all those OM-D, GH-4 and other MILC users, seem to be surviving on just the one slot. As I said in my original post - if I wanted the cam, for the cam's sake - I wouldn't be deterred by the single card, I'd look for an alternate safety strategy.
Best,
M
ps
Just saw your post - your dreaded Sandisk is my preferred marque!
Two slots won't solve our quandary ..
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... particularly with smaller cards. Some of which eject themselves with great force across room. :o
Last time I looked SD cards weren't sell-propelled - so it's either the cam or you beating on the eject button with excessive vigour ;D
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Jeremy,
That I may have been more fortunate than you (clearly) doesn't change the severity of data loss. Nor are my priorities when it comes to data storage, necessarily different to yours.
My point is that a second card slot, isn't the b-all and end all of data security.
No one said it was, but card failure is a common issue compared to all other problems. Dual slot is a simple and very effective solution. Not only that it means you can work in on location without having to bother with constant backing up of data as it's already backed up.
My go-to 'camera-case' backup setup is a MacBook Air with two external 512GB SSD's. I chimp often, just to check that the cam reads and writes to the card, alternate and offload files to the SSD's frequently when I'm not tethered (rare). Perhaps OTT in your book, not mine. To each his own, many degrees of data security, but in my book the second card slot is scant comfort. When I had the D800 I never used it. I'd choose a cam that that tethers rather than one that only offers two slots any day.
But I certainly accept that for some disciplines (sports in particular, pj also) a second drive is more 'de rigeur' than others. But even there, I'd suggest that real-time wi-fi transfer is more the way forward. We've seen the first steps in that direction, both from PhaseOne and Sony (amongst others) - I hope it accelerates.
In the meantime, all those OM-D, GH-4 and other MILC users, seem to be surviving on just the one slot. As I said in my original post - if I wanted the cam, for the cam's sake - I wouldn't be deterred by the single card, I'd look for an alternate safety strategy.
Except your solutions do not work with card failure or are completely impractical. Backing up is irrelevant as you cannot back up from a dead card, you usually only notice the problem when it's too late by the nature of the beast. Again if you'd had the problem, you would say very different things.
The other fancy solutions, wifi/tethering are more complex and fraught than the simplicity of a second card slot. Not to mention often impractical in the situations where you only get one chance at the shot.
Just saw your post - your dreaded Sandisk is my preferred marque!
Two slots won't solve our quandary ..
Even crappy Sandisks are unlikely to simultaneously fail in tandem. ;)
Last time I looked SD cards weren't sell-propelled - so it's either the cam or you beating on the eject button with excessive vigour ;D
Lots of devices do not have an eject button, rather a spring loaded action that ejects card after depressing it. Sometimes the spring is a bit keen!
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It's absence is certainly worth commenting on, but not worth hyperbole.
What hyperbole? It's a simple solution against card failure for cameras. Something certain photographers, particularly pros find far more important than a few extra MP.
Thinking losing one's data is trivial is however plain dumb.
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.... if this were a mere low level consumer camera.
Don't know about "low level," or "consumer" but it ain't a professional camera. Perhaps a very capable prosumer camera, at best. As someone already mentioned, it is a sensor in a box (a LEGO designed box, I would add). The mere fact that you'd get paper cuts while handling it, proves it. That some pros are using it doesn't prove it otherwise. You wouldn't call Holga a pro camera just because some pros are using it when it suits the purpose.
;)
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I simply avoid Sandisk or other flaky brands ...
Hi,
If never had a single issue with SanDisk (both CF and SD type) memory cards in the approx. 15 years that I've been using them. I do know of Lexar issues being reported, but I rarely (can't remember even one SanDisk issue being reported in my circle of close relatives/colleagues) hear Sandisk being mentioned.
Do you have any credible references that rate SanDisk as 'flaky'?
Cheers,
Bart
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My experience with the Sandisk "extreme-Pro".
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109092
I've never had a problem with the 8GByte 4x Sandisk, continue to use them.
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If never had a single issue with SanDisk (both CF and SD type) memory cards in the approx. 15 years that I've been using them. I do know of Lexar issues being reported, but I rarely (can't remember even one SanDisk issue being reported in my circle of close relatives/colleagues) hear Sandisk being mentioned.
I've never had a heart attack, therefore they do not happen.
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For hundreds of years, photographers were recording a single image, no backup. Imagine Robert Capa, after learning of the developing disaster with his film, call his editor and was like: "Don't worry, bro, I got your back, I was simultaneously shooting with a second camera in my left hand."
No, there was always only one chance to have that once-in-lifetime picture. We were shooting Kodachromes, had to put them in yellow mailers and surrender them for a week or two to the mercy of whatever postal system the country had (or often two countries).
So we have today some form of backup in some cameras. That is great. There are still millions of other scenarios where you'd lose your pictures. You could break a leg on your way to a shoot, you camera can end up in water (though chances are your memory card would still work just fine), etc. Your camera malfunctions, no worries, you carry two... except it is not unheard of the second malfunction. The same with your backup drives.
Things malfunction all the time. Big deal. Bad luck, nuisance, sure... even catastrophe (from the perspective of lost shots of a once-in-lifetime event). That a camera doesn't have a second slot, however, is hardly a cataclysmic event in itself.
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That a camera doesn't have a second slot, however, is hardly a cataclysmic event in itself.
No one said it was. Just that camera is less attractive because of it.
However all those who haven't had a card failure seems to be making a huge fuss about how unnecessary and pointless a second slot is. Whereas I just think, "Oh I so wish I had one of them in the camera I used for the climactic scene in a documentary where only one camera could be present". The time when Sandisk let me down with no files recoverable at all from card. That was just one of three Sandisk cards that failed on that one shot in three different cameras. Film never got finished as a result of that.
For hundreds of years, photographers were recording a single image, no backup. Imagine Robert Capa, after learning of the developing disaster with his film, call his editor and was like: "Don't worry, bro, I got your back, I was simultaneously shooting with a second camera in my left hand."
One of the dumbest arguments ever. "Well people managed without it before." Well actually they didn't, loads of work got lost and I bet you every single photographer that happened to would have been glad of backup. Can imagine the same thing in medicine "I don't know why people insist on anaesthetic, in my days you bit on a bit of wood and let surgeon got on with it."
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... how unnecessary and pointless a second slot is....
... "Well people managed without it before."
You are now taking the point to another extreme. No one said it is "unnecessary and pointless," nor my argument was solely that "people managed without it before." I actually said it is great that some cameras have some sort of backup today. I said "some sort" because having a second slot is not a backup panacea. The point here is that it is not such a catastrophic omission either, as some said it is, to the point of being a deal breaker.
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I've never had a heart attack, therefore they do not happen.
Nobody said card failures do not happen. Bart simply offered anecdotal counter-argument to the few of you, representing the vocal minority, who created the impression that card failures happen with catastrophic frequencies. I never had a card failure, btw. I once had a bent pin inside a CF-card camera, which rendered the camera unusable, not the card.
The real questions is: what is the failure rate of memory cards, statistically? I bet it is much, much smaller than a plethora of other events that might ruin your shoot.
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Nobody said card failures do not happen. Bart simply offered anecdotal counter-argument to the few of you, representing the vocal minority, who created the impression that card failures happen with catastrophic frequencies.
Correct, and it may well be that certain issues (that undoubtedly do occur even if I didn't experience them first hand) are camera interface related as well. And statistically every brand must have some units that are faulty. The questions is indeed what is the real failure rate. Calling a brand's cards 'flaky' should be easy enough to back up with statistical data if they really are.
I'm looking forward to such credible evidence, because then I will feel even luckier and happy and privileged and special, that it didn't happen with my cards ;)
Cheers,
Bart
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Correct, and it may well be that certain issues (that undoubtedly do occur even if I didn't experience them first hand) are camera interface related as well. And statistically every brand must have some units that are faulty. The questions is indeed what is the real failure rate. Calling a brand's cards 'flaky' should be easy enough to back up with statistical data if they really are.
I'm looking forward to such credible evidence, because then I will feel even luckier and happy and privileged and special, that it didn't happen with my cards ;)
Cheers,
Bart
To add to the anecdotal evidence, I have been using high end Sandisk CF cards for 11 years and have had zero failures or problems. They work well for me.
Bill
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Nobody said card failures do not happen.
No they behave as if failures do not happen, an important distinction, whilst saying how they've never had an incident and implying failures are not a problem. I had gear stolen from a shared city centre house once because a mother of one of my flatmates didn't bother to close and lock the back door. The reason being was that she'd never been robbed in all the time she lived in a small village in the country, so naively didn't feel the need to lock up. Losing irreplaceable video tape footage of my sister's wedding in the process. >:(
Bart simply offered anecdotal counter-argument to the few of you, representing the vocal minority, who created the impression that card failures happen with catastrophic frequencies.
No with catastrophic results, not catastrophic frequency. Once again a very important distinction. It happens rarely, which is still way too often in my books. If a film brand failed as frequently as computer stuff did, the company would have rapidly gone out of business, but people seem endure computer issues and treat them as being more acceptable.
The real questions is: what is the failure rate of memory cards, statistically? I bet it is much, much smaller than a plethora of other events that might ruin your shoot.
Is it less likely than all the other possibilities together? Yes, but that's not comparing things equally and as it an easily preventable problem, why not simply avoid the issue. Just because you fail to see the benefit, you think there isn't one for others. Just like with in camera GPS that you thought was pointless even though others find it useful. As it happens I recently heard a stock photographer talking about how it helped his sales recently. Why do people think that what works for them is suitable for everyone else, when that is so demonstrably not the case. ???
Hoodman claim it's around 2-3% for consumer cards like Sandisk which is what most 'pro' cards are in fact, if you want non-consumer cards look here (https://www.amtron.com/cfcard.htm). Which why most people on here are quite unlikely to have had a problem. Hard drives failures can can be a lot higher (https://www.backblaze.com/blog/best-hard-drive/). Obviously the only people who can really vouch for cards longevity are the manufacturers, who won't admit to anything. No-one uses cards in the large numbers as they do HDs so reliability or lack thereof is not visible in the same way. But interestingly Sandisk never counterclaimed/sued Hoodman for disparaging their products which I thought was interesting.
Why have I had several then? Probably the same reason I've had quite a few hard drive failures, I have had lots of them which obviously increase one's chances. Plus the reality is that whilst some people won't have any issues, some will have numerous by the nature of random distribution. Clusters happen and the more cards/drives you have the more likely it is to find a bad one. I had three of the infamous IBM deskstar drives that destroyed their business for example, one failed before I could get info off it, so had to be data recovered.
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For hundreds of years, photographers were recording a single image, no backup. Imagine Robert Capa, after learning of the developing disaster with his film, call his editor and was like: "Don't worry, bro, I got your back, I was simultaneously shooting with a second camera in my left hand."
The Capa story you quote is in fact just that a story. Those "missing rolls" were never exposed. The darkroom "disaster" was made up to cover the fact.
The Robert Capa D-Day Project has received the 2014 Society of Professional Journalists Sigma Delta Chi (SDX) Award for Research About Journalism.
http://www.nearbycafe.com/artandphoto/photocritic/major-stories/major-series-2014/robert-capa-on-d-day/
There is a long, very long, there are vested interests at stake here, series of posts that show that Capa only exposed those images that we know of, which in no way diminishes their power.
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To add to the anecdotal evidence, I have been using high end Sandisk CF cards for 11 years and have had zero failures or problems. They work well for me.
You probably haven't in fact as their consumer cards are not their high end, military/industrial cards are. Which is a different market again.
And as mentioned elsewhere any one individual is unlikely to have bought enough cards to guarantee failure.
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I've bought Hoodman cards (http://hoodmanusa.com/cgi/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=0010)when in the US, sadly hard to find here in UK.
Listed on Amazon UK:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hoodman-RAW6-CF16GBRAW-16GB-CompactFlash-Card/dp/B0038N4BEC/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1434317990&sr=1-3&keywords=hoodman+cf
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To add to the anecdotal evidence, I have been using high end Sandisk CF cards for 11 years and have had zero failures or problems. They work well for me.
I have experienced SD failures with Sandisk, Sony (happened twice, ironic, I know...) and Transcend. I believe Sandisk with CF. I typically buy the fastest card available at time of purchase.
For those familiar with risk mgt in project context, the assessment of a risk is often made by multiplying frequency by impact.
I can only speak for myself, but in my 15 years of shooting digital, card failure have been the only failure that did result/could have resulted (without dual slot) in image loss. In most cases there was no sign when shooting, the card was just found to be unreadable later. I had the aperture lever of a 70-200f2.8 die on me once, but it just forced me to shoot wide open. Other than that zero equipment issues endangering image capture.
Does the lack of dual slot make the a7rII unusable? No, it doesn't, but it reduces its appeal to me and quite a few others it seems. That clearly confirms that Sony missed something here.
I am unsure why this generates such a heated debate. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Listed on Amazon UK:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hoodman-RAW6-CF16GBRAW-16GB-CompactFlash-Card/dp/B0038N4BEC/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1434317990&sr=1-3&keywords=hoodman+cf
That's the old ones at the old high prices. But thanks for looking.
The new faster 64GB are the same price in $ as the old 32Gb in pounds. £200/$200, so not a good buy and is about all that can be found in UK sadly. I don't buy from fleabay either, particularly for things like cards. If buying more than a handfull, it may be worth flying to the US to get them.
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For those familiar with risk mgt in project context, the assessment of a risk is often made by multiplying frequency by impact.
I can only speak for myself, but in my 15 years of shooting digital, card failure have been the only failure that did result/could have resulted (without dual slot) in image loss. In most cases there was no sign when shooting, the card was just found to be unreadable later. I had the aperture lever of a 70-200f2.8 die on me once, but it just forced me to shoot wide open. Other than that zero equipment issues endangering image capture.
Much the same as me then.
Does the lack of dual slot make the a7rII unusable? No, it doesn't, but it reduces its appeal to me and quite a few others it seems. That clearly confirms that Sony missed something here.
I am unsure why this generates such a heated debate. ;)
Normal human nature. 'I've never experienced/required it, therefore I don't see it as a problem/need.' The same people complain about 'bloat' when a feature they do not want is added to software. The fact the majority of feature requests may have asked for said feature is immaterial.
However I bet anyone who has card failure sees dual slots as a big plus.
I fancy a small camera system for certain types of work and it's a shame dual slots are not on such cameras. If they are going to go the small route why not do it completely and use the minute micro SD card, plenty of room for two then.
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If they are going to go the small route why not do it completely and use the minute micro SD card, plenty of room for two then.
Exactly, one regular SD and one micro SD would be a good compromise. There is clearly no way they could not have packaged it.
It is probably a conscious decision that confirms that an a9r is coming.
Cheers,
Bernard
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The Capa story you quote is in fact just that a story. Those "missing rolls" were never exposed. The darkroom "disaster" was made up to cover the fact.
The Robert Capa D-Day Project has received the 2014 Society of Professional Journalists Sigma Delta Chi (SDX) Award for Research About Journalism.
http://www.nearbycafe.com/artandphoto/photocritic/major-stories/major-series-2014/robert-capa-on-d-day/
There is a long, very long, there are vested interests at stake here, series of posts that show that Capa only exposed those images that we know of, which in no way diminishes their power.
Fascinating. And IMO convincing…the melted D-Day negatives story is BS. I highly recommend checking out the link Chris has provided. The article installments it, in turn, links to are a genuine eye opener.
-Dave-
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That's the old ones at the old high prices. But thanks for looking.
Hoodman appear to have UK distribution but not for the cards, just found that but agree source can be iffy, will look at US, thanks for the pointers.
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I have experienced SD failures with Sandisk, Sony (happened twice, ironic, I know...) and Transcend. I believe Sandisk with CF. I typically buy the fastest card available at time of purchase.
While it may be fun, it's not necessarily comfortable to be on the cutting edge.
I am unsure why this generates such a heated debate. ;)
Now there, I'm with you.
Jeremy
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To add to the anecdotal evidence, I have been using high end Sandisk CF cards for 11 years and have had zero failures or problems. They work well for me.
Bill
I have shot >55000 images since I bought my first DSLR (the actual number is significantly larger, but these are the ones that I have not deleted. Many I ought to have deleted, though.).
I have a mix of old and new, small and large, expensive and no-name cards.
Out of those images, I know of exactly 2 that came out corrupted. I believe that was a Canon camera software problem (the camera became non-responsive), but you never know.
This experience has made me very relaxed about memory cards. I have the feeling that those who report about massive problems with memory cards either:
1. Have had bad luck
2. Do something to their cameras/cards that I do not
3. Are examples of cherry-picking (one is more likely to share ones experiences if one has had problems that if not).
I am _not_ claiming that no-one has ever had any problems with memory cards. But I am suggesting that internet forum polls may not be a robust source of information about how frequent this happens.
Now, If my photography was highly paid once-in-a-lifetime events, I might want some redundance "just in case". I have reasonable redundance for my long-time-storage of images as I have experienced one harddrive failure in my life, and life is too short to generate personal statistics on 10-year-life-expectancy of hard-drives containing _all_ of your images.
-h
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I had some problems ten years ago with first/second generation Canon DSLRs. At worst 1/3 of the frames on some cards were lost with strange carpet-like patterns on them. After getting new cards, none. During the past 3 years with Nikon D4 and D800e I have shot RAW on the main card and JPEG back-up on the secondary card. I have never needed the back-up. On my trips abroad I have happily shot with one-card Fujis, not making backups either, just being careful with the handling of the cards. Zero failures.
New Sony looks tempting, but after investing (too much already…) on the Fuji system, I'll wait and see for the final verdict. Retirement looming in the horizon, I have 2 more years to see where the world is going what comes to compact high IQ systems, before I have to give my complete Nikon gear back. Until then D800e is plenty good enough.
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The last two pages have had absolutely nothing to do with the a7R Mk II. Seems like a lengthy discussion of media card reliability should be a different thread.
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The last two pages have had absolutely nothing to do with the a7R Mk II. Seems like a lengthy discussion of media card reliability should be a different thread.
It is interesting how easily a thread can get derailed sometimes.
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The last two pages have had absolutely nothing to do with the a7R Mk II.
Without actually putting hands on the camera there's little to be said; but that sensible silence can be filled by a speculative froth of chatter ;-)
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Meanwhile some videos showing the AF with 3rd party lenses:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdhvDg2dkiM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW36e_icsic
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I would be very interested in knowing if it has a completely silent mode. That is no shutter noise, no beeps no nothing. Thanks!
We should have one of the first cameras and maybe even a pre-production unit. We'll keep you posted. Now things get interesting.
Kevin Raber
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Came into this thread to read about the new camera and maybe see some samples. Ended up reading 7 pages about memory cards. Oh well, what's LuLa without all the OT?
More fuel to the fire. The only card ever to fail on me was a PoS Transcend CF. Recovered the data with ZAR. Moved to Sandisk and Lexar since then. Not a single problem so far, for CF and SD. I use the dual slots in my D800 for overflow, not backup. My Credo has no such thing and I couldn't care less.
The "Biggest catastrophe" I have had was dunking a full Elinchrom Quadra in the sea. Cost me a great deal more than some images that I have a chance to recover.
I would buy the A7R II with or without dual card slots. Of all the list of things I want in a camera, that feature ranks way, way down.
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I've used nothing but Sandisk cards since 2002, and have never had a card failure. Dual card slots are nice to have, but raw compression and focus are more of an issue for me.
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I would be very interested in knowing if it has a completely silent mode. That is no shutter noise, no beeps no nothing. Thanks!
Yes, it does.
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Personally I think the OT account of Capa kinda blowing his D-Day assignment and then participating in a "ruined negatives" lie to cover that up is way more interesting than any new camera. But maybe it deserves its own thread…
-Dave-
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... But maybe it deserves its own thread…
No. Who cares?
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No. Who cares?
Maybe anyone interested in history, journalists and how the latter's telling & retelling of the former is always something other than a pure & accurate version of it…and is in fact sometimes a willful falsification. But I grant you that a gearhead-dominated venue, with its small-picture (but large print size!) orientation, is maybe not the best place.
-Dave-
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... how the latter's telling & retelling of the former is always something other than a pure & accurate version of it…and is in fact sometimes a willful falsification.
Noooooo... don't say!?
... a gearhead-dominated venue, with its small-picture (but large print size!)...
The guy was there and brought back historic images. That's all I need and want to know. That there are always small-minded people with large desire to drag down everyone else to their level in mud is just another well-known and sad fact of life.
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The guy was there and brought back historic images.
Indeed he was, and did. All credit to him for that.
That's all I need and want to know. That there are always small-minded people with large desire to drag down everyone else to their level in mud is just another well-known and sad fact of life.
IMO this misses the point. Capa himself owned up, in writing, to the fact that he had a loss of nerve on D-Day. Who could possibly blame him? The lying originated not with him but with his editor at Life, and he was more or less compelled to go along with it. Worse, the lying continued at least up 'til mid 2014, with Time/Life going so far as to (poorly) fake "damaged" negatives in order to perpetuate it. This isn't about dragging anyone down but rather getting the facts straight. Personally I'll take a disquieting truth over a comforting lie any day.
-Dave-