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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 1313864 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9760 on: April 08, 2021, 01:05:28 pm »

I mean, sure. If "voter ID" means you mail in a copy of a utility bill or a WIC card or a SNAP card (does SNAP issue cards??) then you get a ballot back in the mail, that's obviously better than saying you need to take an original certified birth certificate and second form of ID to a DMV, even if it still adds a step to voting that I, for example, don't have to take.
How do you vote that requires no ID?

James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9761 on: April 08, 2021, 01:11:15 pm »

How do you vote that requires no ID?

It's not just ID - it's type of ID and access to acquire said ID, not to mention access to actual voting.  It's all of it.  If you want to argue that everyone voting should have some sort of ID that's reasonably secure, and as many convenient and easy ways to vote as possible to cover a wide variety of life situations, you won't get anywhere near as much pushback from me. 

So for example:  Everyone has to have some sort of ID - utility bill, School ID, WIC card, whatever.  But once you do that, it needs to be as easy as possible to vote.  No question mail in voting, more dropboxes, extended voting hours etc. - all of it.  But that's not what's happening.  Did you note the link I posted above about the NC 4th Circuit case?  They killed a voting day *because that's when black people vote.*  That's repulsive, isn't it??



« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 01:34:53 pm by James Clark »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9762 on: April 08, 2021, 01:19:33 pm »

It's not just ID - it's type of ID and access to acquire said ID, not to mention access to actual voting.  It's all of it.  If you want to argue that everyone voting should have some sort of ID that's reasonably secure, and as many convenient and easy ways to vote as possible to cover a wide variety of life situations, you won't get anywhere near as much pushback from me.




OK.  So there is room for compromise.  I think most people are just concerned that voters be ID'd.  When I lived in NY most of my life, I only registered once where I lived or moved to within NY.  Once registered, that's it. Then they gave you a voters registration card with your name and district you can vote in.  You took the card to the polls each time you voted and when you voted you signed and they checked your signature against the one on file. It's not like you have to register it every two or four years.  Frankly, I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to register once in their life if they're interested in voting.

It's similar in NJ where I now live.  Although now that I've requested mail-in, they automatically send me the ballot in the mail which I return by mail.  That's fine because I already registered that one time when I moved here and election people have my address.  Mailing out "blind" unrequested ballots I;m against.  The case above probably happened with those kind of "unrequested" ballots.

James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9763 on: April 08, 2021, 01:43:39 pm »

OK.  So there is room for compromise.  I think most people are just concerned that voters be ID'd.  When I lived in NY most of my life, I only registered once where I lived or moved to within NY.  Once registered, that's it. Then they gave you a voters registration card with your name and district you can vote in.  You took the card to the polls each time you voted and when you voted you signed and they checked your signature against the one on file. It's not like you have to register it every two or four years.  Frankly, I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to register once in their life if they're interested in voting.


The problem is that these aren't the kind of laws/restrictions that Republicans are pushing.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9764 on: April 08, 2021, 03:19:21 pm »

It's not just ID - it's type of ID and access to acquire said ID, not to mention access to actual voting.  It's all of it.  If you want to argue that everyone voting should have some sort of ID that's reasonably secure, and as many convenient and easy ways to vote as possible to cover a wide variety of life situations, you won't get anywhere near as much pushback from me. 

So for example:  Everyone has to have some sort of ID - utility bill, School ID, WIC card, whatever.  But once you do that, it needs to be as easy as possible to vote.  No question mail in voting, more dropboxes, extended voting hours etc. - all of it.  But that's not what's happening.  Did you note the link I posted above about the NC 4th Circuit case?  They killed a voting day *because that's when black people vote.*  That's repulsive, isn't it??




Apparently, the press and Biden have gotten some of the new Georgia rules wrong. Here's an analysis by ABC.   Which sections are problems and why?
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/breaking-claims-georgias-election-law-true/story?id=76897349

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9765 on: April 08, 2021, 04:02:54 pm »

It seems Trump, I mean Biden, is locking up kids in plastic jails.

Migrant encounters up 71% in March as Biden administration grapples with border
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/04/08/migrants-border-were-up-march-biden-grapples-immigration/7130399002/

JoeKitchen

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9766 on: April 08, 2021, 04:14:32 pm »

::)  We've been through this already.  At least twice.  And you have a serious inability to see beyond your own experience, but that's sort of typical with you people.  Me?  When a whole slew of non-white people tell me that other people are making things hard for them, I tend to not assume they're lying for some nefarious reason.

Anyway, it's not "Blacks can't get IDs," you doofus.  It's "Blacks are part of a wider demographic that are both less likely to have certain documentation or aren't as flexible with work schedules, transportation, and so forth, AND happen to vote Democrat, so if we make it harder for people to vote, Democrats will be harmed more than we will.  Oh, and yeah, lots of those people are black."

Or just read what Republican campaign strategists like Carter Wrenn say:

Or what Dreed's Dakota senator (R) said above...

Of course, SOMETIMES it IS explicitly because they are targeting Black people. See the state's argument in US Court of Appeals, 4th Circuit, NCNAACB et al v. McCrory That's not some "woke" columnist - that's the G**D**n STATE OF NC admitting under oath that they shuttered a day of voting because more black people voted that way/day.

So look - if you want to argue that Republican voter suppression laws aren't "racist" but just happen to disproportionally impact not-white people, and that whole "voter fraud" thing is just a lie to give cover to anti-American bullshit, that's cool.  Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men and all that.

But if you can't even understand the basic issue (And it's not "They said 'the blacks' can't get IDs") despite innumerable Republicans admitting it in public and in court, you're literally either too stupid or too much of a zealot to be having this discussion with me.

You people?  Racist much? 

Just because someone is promoting mistruths does not mean they are lying, let along for a nefarious reason.  They could just be misinformed.  There are plenty of conspiracy theories going around that many believe.  There are many conspiracy theories whites believe that are untrue, and many blacks believe as well that are untrue.  Many of these are parroted to point where people actually believe them and repeat them.  For example, many feminist will tell you 20% of college women are sexually assaulted, and believe it to be true.  The actual percentage is around 2%.  So yes, even though a large group of similar people may tell you something with conviction, it still could be BS!  So I tend to not care about what people feel, but the actual facts. 

Pew found that in 2008 and 2012 blacks outperformed any other minority nationwide and also whites in many states, some with so called restrictive voter laws, insofar as percentage of the population to vote.  I believe this has been the case in GA for the last few election cycles.  Given this, I just don't see the evidence supporting the claims that people feel are happening.  (In general, I really care about people's feelings when it comes to policy, so if you are going make an appeal to emotion, it will be ignored.) 

Are there fluke cases of actual racism.  Of course, and they should be dealt with. 

That reference you made, was it adjudicated in the courts?  It appears to have been given the post.  I am betting that it was rejected by the courts.  All was made good here. 

But by no means do we destroy all trust in our voting system over a couple bad apples.  That's like outlawing alcohol because some people cant handle themselves.  Did we do that before?  I dont think it worked out well if so. 

Also, I just can not fathom how any voter ID law would hamper anyone on voting.  If they were requiring passports only, I would agree, but we are talking about state issued IDs.  These are not hard to get and I have yet to meet any adult without one. 

Are Voter ID laws racist?

PS
Now, I just want to make my position as clear as possible.  I believe you should have an ID to vote, which is what I am really concerned about, and I would prefer voting to only happen on election day in person, unless you a legitimate reason to be absent.  I would do away with all early voting everywhere.  However, if early voting is mandated, then all days should be open during the same time frames that polling places would be open on election day. 
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 04:26:28 pm by JoeKitchen »
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9767 on: April 08, 2021, 06:50:04 pm »

There are plenty of conspiracy theories going around that many believe... Many of these are parroted to point where people actually believe them and repeat them...  So yes, even though a large group of similar people may tell you something with conviction, it still could be BS!

This describes a large portion of the internet.
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9768 on: April 08, 2021, 06:52:12 pm »

For example, many feminist will tell you 20% of college women are sexually assaulted, and believe it to be true.  The actual percentage is around 2%.

"The actual percentage is around 2%." Where did you dig up that nugget?
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9769 on: April 08, 2021, 06:57:32 pm »

Are Voter ID laws racist?

The only link you decided to provide is this absurd bit of nonsense? Why would you want to associate yourself with that kind of silly video narrative which is indicative of nothing?
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dreed

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9770 on: April 08, 2021, 07:00:24 pm »

Most in New Jersey seem to be Fraudulent Use of Absentee Ballots.  Also, False registration, Buying Votes, Duplicate Voting.  Here's the link.  You can check other states there as well.
https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?combine=&state=NJ&year=&case_type=All&fraud_type=All

Which does not show any evidence of fraud related to the federal election results from New Jersey in November, 2020.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9771 on: April 08, 2021, 07:45:42 pm »

Which does not show any evidence of fraud related to the federal election results from New Jersey in November, 2020.
The list mainly shows convictions.  It takes awhile to be processed. The last report was for a special election in early 2020.  But even if there might be no convictions in 2020 Nov election, doesn't mean NJ is going to do away with election fraud laws.  Maybe the laws are working.  That^s why there may be no fraud. Can you imagine if there were no laws how much cheating there would be.

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9772 on: April 08, 2021, 07:54:20 pm »

Can you imagine if there were no laws how much cheating there would be.

No one has suggested "no laws" regarding elections.
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Manoli

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9773 on: April 08, 2021, 08:35:25 pm »

The idea that Blacks, for some reason, have a harder time getting an IDs is absurd.  Likewise, the idea that a functioning adult can get by in today's world without an ID, and therefore not being able to vote, is also absurd.   

I've asked the question before - can someone tell me what is required to obtain a voter ID ?
(spoiler : if one of the requirements is a utility bill or similar, then I can see why many may have difficulty).
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Manoli

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9774 on: April 08, 2021, 08:36:17 pm »

This idea that voter ID laws are racist is nonsense. 

“We are at an inflection point in American history. Down one path is a Trump-inspired white plutocracy, and down the other is a representative democracy.”

At least 250 new laws are under consideration in 43 states to limit mail, early in-person and Election Day voting.  A few  provisions of the For the People Act would make

• automatic voter registration the norm nationwide,
• effectively forbid racial and partisan gerrymandering of district lines, and
• establish national baselines for absentee voting,

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/inflection-point-congress-prepares-battle-over-massive-voting-rights-bill-n1262172

Your focus is oblivious to the need to expand voter ACCESSIBILITY in addition to ensuring proper and effective election supervision. Something you and der Kleine studiously avoid addressing.

How many in-person voting centres were operative throughout all 50 states in the 2020 election ?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 09:07:25 pm by Manoli »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9775 on: April 08, 2021, 08:44:09 pm »

No one has suggested "no laws" regarding elections.
HR1 comes close

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9776 on: April 08, 2021, 08:48:23 pm »

Baloney
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9777 on: April 08, 2021, 08:50:02 pm »

“We are at an inflection point in American history. Down one path is a Trump-inspired white plutocracy, and down the other is a representative democracy.”

At least 250 new laws are under consideration in 43 states to limit mail, early in- person and Election Day voting.  A few  provisions of the For the People Act would make

• automatic voter registration the norm nationwide,
• effectively forbid racial and partisan gerrymandering of district lines, and
• establish national baselines for absentee voting,

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/inflection-point-congress-prepares-battle-over-massive-voting-rights-bill-n1262172

Your focus is oblivious to the need to expand voter ACCESSIBILITY in addition to ensuring proper and effective election supervision. Something you and der Kleine studiously avoid addressing.

How many in-person voting centres were operative throughout all 50 states in the 2020 election ?

How do you register citizens without proof who they are?We have 20=30 million non citizens living in the US.  Isn't getting an ID to vote more important than getting an ID to drive? SHouldn't you be required to show you're a citizen?

Manoli

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9778 on: April 08, 2021, 08:56:50 pm »

How do you register citizens without proof who they are? ... Isn't getting an ID to vote more important than getting an ID to drive? SHouldn't you be required to show you're a citizen?

I said "in addition to ensuring proper and effective election supervision" that would include bona fide steps to prevent voter fraud - not a smokescreen to facilitate voter suppression.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 09:50:00 pm by Manoli »
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Manoli

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9779 on: April 08, 2021, 09:28:13 pm »

It's not just ID - it's type of ID and access to acquire said ID, not to mention access to actual voting.  It's all of it. 

+10
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 09:43:14 pm by Manoli »
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