Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[digitaldog]

Seriously!? 99% (and I am being charitable) of the riots, burnings, monument toppling, etc. comes from the Left.

99%?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan
None again provided. Another made up state without a lick of proof.
If anyone said 99% or even 75% of Solbodans posts are made up rubbish, he'd go ballistic. And hence, his obvious made up stats and hypocrisy in full display again.

[Alan Klein]

Slobodan's pictures weren't detailed enough to recognise "Make America Great Again" caps and/or other identifiers of any of the two biggest US parties, so they prove nothing about the political ideology of these criminals (if they even have one, my guess [speculation warning] is that they are nutters and morons who just like creating havoc for the fun of it)

Most of the rioters, looters, and arsonists were black or whites who supported the Black Lives Matter Movement.  Some used the excuse of the rioting just to loot, not having a particular political motive.  Some black gangs came from other cities with the direct intent to loot only, then return quickly from where they came from.  Unfortunately, as this article shows, it's black neighborhoods that got hurt the worse and probably won't recover, businesses that are needed to support these communities and provide services and jobs. 

Viewers saw night after night of who was rioting on TV.  I don't know what you were watching in the safe Netherlands.  But it certainly didn't look like you described it to me from what I saw, nor to most Americans.  You're defending the undefendable and untrue.  Democrat politicians were put in the difficult position of having to defend marching and protesting peacefully with the obviously illegal activities that were occurring from these same or contingent groups. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/business/small-business-insurance-unrest-kenosha.html

[Alan Klein]

It may make a difference if the claims have a merit. Courts need evidence, it is not their task to investigate claims.

Making claims, that cannot be be proven, could undermine democracy.

There are authorities that superwise elections and it seems they found that elections were clean and unmanipulated.

Also, elections are based on a set of rules. Voting was based on that set of rules. You cannot change the rules after the fact.

It may be that the US election process needs a reform. But, if that is the case it needs to be handled in the democratic process. Having 50 pretty independent states does not make things easier.

Best regards
Erik

Erik, Every person who starts a lawsuit they eventually lose thought they were right at the time they sued. To argue it's not Democratic if the plaintiff loses is tortured logic. He's not burning things down.  He's using the legal system just as Gore did in 2000.  You can argue the merits or political problems it causes.  But to argue against it from a democratic, constitutional, or legal basis, is wrong. Tyrants don't use lawsuits to make their case.

[jeremyrh]

So, instead of distancing from her:

Not relevant to your claim.

[Peter McLennan]

Slobodan showed the pictures previously.  Would you like to see a piece of charred wood?

Please demonstrate how these images legally implicate political subsets of society, or the places from which the alleged perpetrators travelled.

[faberryman]

Most of the rioters, looters, and arsonists were black or whites who supported the Black Lives Matter Movement.

The last poll I saw in July was that 63% of Americans supported the Black Lives Matter movement, so Alan is saying that the rioters, looters, and arsonists came from a pool of somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000,000 people. Sounds a lot like everyday Americans to me. I don't why he separated them into black and white. Well, actually I do.

Some black gangs came from other cities with the direct intent to loot only, then return quickly from where they came from.

It is the first time I have heard that comment. I would want to see some factual support for that statement before I made a judgment as to its veracity.

Viewers saw night after night of who was rioting on TV.

There was some variation in what you saw depending on which channel you were watching. The same is true of the commentary you heard.

[digitaldog]

Please demonstrate how these images legally implicate political subsets of society, or the places from which the alleged perpetrators travelled.

If Alan where shown a blank/black image that he found effective in his confirmation bias, that would be all the necessary proof required for him and a few others. It's like being told 99% of something exists without having any data or metric for that percentage. If you believe it, it must be true.
We're in the realm of religious belief's at this point, it's pointless to debate religion and at the same time, as the religious cult member to provide data and facts. They believe, therefore it is. 

[pegelli]

Viewers saw night after night of who was rioting on TV.  I don't know what you were watching in the safe Netherlands.  But it certainly didn't look like you described it to me from what I saw, nor to most Americans.  You're defending the undefendable and untrue.  Democrat politicians were put in the difficult position of having to defend marching and protesting peacefully with the obviously illegal activities that were occurring from these same or contingent groups. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/business/small-business-insurance-unrest-kenosha.html

Alan, I think this piece in the article sums up how I feel about the whole issue of looting, burning down stores etc. etc

It is unclear if the looters and rioters in this town — or the ones that tore through the commercial districts of Minneapolis, Los Angeles and Chicago — were genuinely committed to the Black Lives Matter movement or just taking advantage of a chaotic situation after the police shooting of Mr. Blake, which is now being investigated by the U.S. Department of Justice.

I think people genuinly interested to bring back justice and weed out the rotten apples in the police force are in my mind not looters and burning down shops. In previous posts I've called all these looters despicable and reading further in the article let me say that I agree with you that I also find people that condone looting/burning as a "justified means of protest to restore justice" hypocrit nutters. It's impossible to protest for justice by committing crimes. But to me it remains unproven if the looters are alt-left, alt-right or just anarchists who will do anything to fuel civic unrest without a strong ideology behind it.

[Alan Klein]

Please demonstrate how these images legally implicate political subsets of society, or the places from which the alleged perpetrators traveled.

Legal?  It was in the court of public opinion.  Anyone who watched the riots and looting on TV, movies not pictures, saw who were doing them.  You don't have to be a lawyer or judge to make intelligent conclusions.  Biden may have won.  But the riots didn't help his vote or the Democrat cause. Many Democrats calling to defund the police in the middle of a riot, including AOC and her cronies, didn't help them either.   

[Alan Klein]

Alan, I think this piece in the article sums up how I feel about the whole issue of looting, burning down stores etc. etc I think people genuinly interested to bring back justice and weed out the rotten apples in the police force are in my mind not looters and burning down shops. In previous posts I've called all these looters despicable and reading further in the article let me say that I agree with you that I also find people that condone looting/burning as a "justified means of protest to restore justice" hypocrit nutters. It's impossible to protest for justice by committing crimes. But to me it remains unproven if the looters are alt-left, alt-right or just anarchists who will do anything to fuel civic unrest without a strong ideology behind it.

I stated that there were many groups who were just there to loot.  The problem is, in the middle of protests to support a black cause, 99% of the looters were black.  Night after night you'd watch movies of blacks breaking windows and breaking in to rob stores and burn them down.  It's hard to argue if you're there peacefully to support a black cause when down the block black looters are burning the place down.  Then at the same time, democratic Congresswomen and other democrats are calling to defund the police.  Even Obama has recently called these "defunders"  nuts in his usual eloquent way.

[faberryman]

Erik, Every person who starts a lawsuit they eventually lose thought they were right at the time they sued.

I know that is not true. People file frivolous lawsuits all the time.

[faberryman]

I stated that there were many groups who were just there to loot.  The problem is, in the middle of protests to support a black cause, 99% of the looters were black.  Night after night you'd watch movies of blacks breaking windows and breaking in to rob stores and burn them down.  It's hard to argue if you're there peacefully to support a black cause when down the block black looters are burning the place down.  Then at the same time, democratic Congresswomen and other democrats are calling to defund the police.  Even Obama has recently called these "defunders"  nuts in his usual eloquent way.

I saw plenty of white looters and arsonists on TV. I don't know where you got the figure that 99% were black. Well, actually I do.

[Robert Roaldi]

Legal?  It was in the court of public opinion.  Anyone who watched the riots and looting on TV, movies not pictures, saw who were doing them.  You don't have to be a lawyer or judge to make intelligent conclusions.  Biden may have won.  But the riots didn't help his vote or the Democrat cause. Many Democrats calling to defund the police in the middle of a riot, including AOC and her cronies, didn't help them either.   

Like all riots they were destructive and resolved nothing. But it's important to keep things in perspective. They were restricted to small areas of cities in which the majority of residents wouldn't have known they were going on if it weren't for tv that replayed the worst of the scenes over and over. The country was not upheaved, there is no long-lasting damage or risk. They were dumb, some people got hurt, but it's best not to blow them out of proportion. My guess is that they're more media circus than real rebellion. In a country where a lot of people have guns, real destruction was pretty minimal as these things go. Condemn them, you bet, calm things down to minimize injury and damage, yup, but please stop making mountains out of mole hills. There is no widespread violent socialist revolution going on, get over yourselves.

[jeremyrh]

I saw plenty of white looters and arsonists on TV. I don't know where he got the figure that 99% were black.

He got it from the same place he gets most of his facts.  I'll refrain from further precision.

[jeremyrh]

let me say that I agree with you that I also find people that condone looting/burning as a "justified means of protest to restore justice" hypocrit nutters. It's impossible to protest for justice by committing crimes. But to me it remains unproven if the looters are alt-left, alt-right or just anarchists who will do anything to fuel civic unrest without a strong ideology behind it.

The list of people who brought about social change by breaking the law is endless. Nelson Mandela, Rosa Parks, the suffragettes in Britain etc etc etc.  How should black people react when they see no change in their situation despite decades of promises?

[Alan Klein]

The list of people who brought about social change by breaking the law is endless. Nelson Mandela, Rosa Parks, the suffragettes in Britain etc etc etc.  How should black people react when they see no change in their situation despite decades of promises?

Rosa Parks and Nelson Mandela didn't burn down businesses and loot.  I don't know about your suffragettes, though.  They could have been a wild bunch.

[kers]

I saw plenty of white looters and arsonists on TV. I don't know where he got the figure that 99% were black.

1% white was Alan in the corner counting looters

[faberryman]

Viewers saw night after night of who was rioting on TV.  I don't know what you were watching in the safe Netherlands.  But it certainly didn't look like you described it to me from what I saw, nor to most Americans.

So you were safe at home, sitting in your easy chair, or perhaps on the sofa, watching the riots on your favorite TV channel, and you know what most Americans saw. Amazing. Perhaps they were watching another channel and saw something different. Or perhaps they were watching through a different psychological or sociological filter. I don't know why you have to project your experiences to most Americans. Well, actually I do.

[faberryman]

Slobodan showed the pictures previously.

He does that a lot. He must follow certain Instagram feeds where he finds them. I don't do Instagram so I never see images like them. Even if I did do Instagram, I probably wouldn't see them because I wouldn't follow the same feeds or whatever you call it. I am not sure what message he was trying to convey with his most recent image postings. I think the pictures he posted could be interpreted any number of ways, depending on you viewpoints, and psychological and sociological profile. It is kind of a way of posting something but nothing at all.

[faberryman]

Biden may have won.  But the riots didn't help his vote or the Democrat cause. Many Democrats calling to defund the police in the middle of a riot, including AOC and her cronies, didn't help them either.   

And yet he did win. Imagine what a landslide it would have been if voters hadn't been alienated from the Democratic party by the riots and calls for defunding the police. Wow!