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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 1318667 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1100 on: November 12, 2020, 02:00:29 pm »

Again, that is just your little fantasy.

Another little fantasy of yours. Please point to any of my posts wherein I said he should concede.
I'm not referring you singularly rather you plurally.  Maybe it doesn't bother you.  But it bothers a lot of democrats that the king refuses to surrender.  They want his head.  And he refuses to give it.  Nyah.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1101 on: November 12, 2020, 02:01:21 pm »

Anyone remember there is a coronavirus pandemic? Looks like Corey Lewandowski caught the bug.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/12/politics/corey-lewandowski-coronavirus/index.html

Now if only we could have gotten the memo out last weekend before all the Dems partied in the street over Biden's win like it was 1999. 

It's so amazing after 9 months, we still that many people not know there is a pandemic going on. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1102 on: November 12, 2020, 02:06:11 pm »

The two conditions are not at all the same sir! Gore did fight, he had data and proof to do so, in the end, it was a difference of like 500 odd votes in ONE state AND more importantly, Gore conceded. As Trump should have days ago. He's massively behind in the votes and EC.
Biden is ahead of Trump far, far more than in 2000, and in fact with vastly larger margins than Trump was ahead of Clinton in 2016. And there is next to no evidence of voter fraud and any found is tiny and wouldn't get close to altering the results. Trump is being a baby, he's lost and he is ruining the democratic process. And even if the actual facts I just outlined are not accepted, bringing up Gore allows Trump to be as political? No, it isn't the same whatsoever and it isn't politics. It's a deliberate crack in our democratic process and deserves no justification.
IF Obama or Hillary acted like Trump is now doing, your head would explode all over your keyboard. Admit it.
I wasn't arguing that Trump has credibility in  his arguments or that Gore didn't have in his.  I conceded that Trump lost. You can have my head.  The only point I was making is that American democracy and Western civilization will not collapse because Trump's still fighting anymore than it collapsed in 2000 when the entire judicial system of the USA was involved and the angst on both sides was at a fever.

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1103 on: November 12, 2020, 02:08:18 pm »

Certainly not dispositive, but another bit of information to consider along with everything else. I wonder how Hopkins managed to get involved with Project Veritas in the first place.

USPS ‘Whistleblower’ Told Agents Project Veritas Penned His Ballot-Tampering Claim

https://www.thedailybeast.com/usps-staffer-richard-hopkins-told-agents-project-veritas-penned-his-ballot-tampering-claim

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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1104 on: November 12, 2020, 02:09:17 pm »

Now if only we could have gotten the memo out last weekend before all the Dems partied in the street over Biden's win like it was 1999. 

It's so amazing after 9 months, we still that many people not know there is a pandemic going on. 
It doesn't count when Democrats do it.

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1105 on: November 12, 2020, 02:10:48 pm »

The only point I was making is that American democracy and Western civilization will not collapse because Trump's still fighting anymore than it collapsed in 2000 when the entire judicial system of the USA was involved and the angst on both sides was at a fever.

Who again has said that American democracy and Western civilization will collapse because Trump's still fighting?
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1106 on: November 12, 2020, 02:12:04 pm »

But it bothers a lot of democrats that the king refuses to surrender.  They want his head.  And he refuses to give it.  Nyah.

Link?
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1107 on: November 12, 2020, 02:12:29 pm »

I wasn't arguing that Trump has credibility in  his arguments or that Gore didn't have in his.  I conceded that Trump lost. You can have my head.  The only point I was making is that American democracy and Western civilization will not collapse because Trump's still fighting anymore than it collapsed in 2000 when the entire judicial system of the USA was involved and the angst on both sides was at a fever.

The Western civilization won't collapse although American democracy may. A grown-up man is acting like a spoiled 5 year old. Sadly, he has some fans who support such a behaviour.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1108 on: November 12, 2020, 02:18:03 pm »

The Western civilization won't collapse although American democracy may. A grown-up man is acting like a spoiled 5 year old. Sadly, he has some fans who support such a behaviour.
Wow, after all these pages, a short, accurate and prefect answer. Can we all go out now and make images (expect you know who <g>).
Even Lindsey Graham has urged the President over the weekend not to concede told CNN on Thursday that he thinks Biden should get intelligence briefings starting now. Wow!
And in terms of Covid-19 and the Trump folks, this just in: Corey Lewandowski got it. Getting close to the magic number of 45 (admitted) Trump folks who've been infected. 45 is a special number but it's hard to believe the infection inside the White House and those hanging out there will stop at that value.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1109 on: November 12, 2020, 02:21:13 pm »

Link?
Frank, do me a favor.  Stop asking me for links every time I give you my opinion.  I don't ask you for links when you give your opinion.  It's called sealioning and it's just foolish trolling.

Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate".

chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1110 on: November 12, 2020, 02:21:56 pm »

I didn't follow this so I don't if the matter was raised.

What if Trump starts an war. Let's say with Iran. Reasons and ways he can find. Would that give him the opportunity to "disregard" the transition of power?

Reminds me of my early days when I had a black light poster hanging in basement that said:

Suppose they gave a war and nobody came.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1111 on: November 12, 2020, 02:24:30 pm »

The Western civilization won't collapse although American democracy may. A grown-up man is acting like a spoiled 5 year old. Sadly, he has some fans who support such a behaviour.
How will American democracy collapse? We listened to Hillary Clinton complain for four years how she was robbed of the presidency yet we're all still here.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1112 on: November 12, 2020, 02:25:40 pm »

Now we'll hear from Trump for four years how he was robbed of the presidency.  :)

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1113 on: November 12, 2020, 02:26:12 pm »

Frank, do me a favor.  Stop asking me for links every time I give you my opinion.  I don't ask you for links when you give your opinion.  It's called sealioning and it's just foolish trolling.

It is difficult to tell when you are merely expressing your opinion or are asserting a fact. By asking for a link I was trying to determine whether you were merely expressing your opinion or asserting a fact.

And I am disappointed that you think I am acting in bad faith.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 02:35:21 pm by faberryman »
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chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1114 on: November 12, 2020, 02:27:27 pm »

The only point I was making is that American democracy and Western civilization will not collapse because Trump's still fighting anymore than it collapsed in 2000 when the entire judicial system of the USA was involved and the angst on both sides was at a fever.

Yeh while Trump is having his hissy fits in the white house, tens of thousands more die without any action from Chetos.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1115 on: November 12, 2020, 02:31:47 pm »

It is difficult to tell when you are merely expressing your opinion or are asserting a fact.
It doesn't matter whether I'm giving my opinion or stating what I feel is a fact.  Asking to prove my point with a link is impolite.  Even if I provided a link, which I often do, you're going to disregard it and come up with alternative link.  So just agree or disagree with my point or make your own.  Saves a lot of shoe wear. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1116 on: November 12, 2020, 02:35:00 pm »

Yeh while Trump is having his hissy fits in the white house, tens of thousands more die without any action from Chetos.
The election is over.  You can now stop campaigning.  It's OK to relax. 

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1117 on: November 12, 2020, 02:40:12 pm »

It doesn't matter whether I'm giving my opinion or stating what I feel is a fact. Asking to prove my point with a link is impolite.  Even if I provided a link, which I often do, you're going to disregard it and come up with alternative link.  So just agree or disagree with my point or make your own.  Saves a lot of shoe wear.

So instead of saying "link", should I say "do you have any facts to support your opinion"? Would that be impolite?
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1118 on: November 12, 2020, 02:47:22 pm »

We've been down this road as well. It's not even close to being that simple. But it would be quite interesting to see what would happen if a State legislature attempted to ignore the will of their voters and change the laws which govern the election process after an election.

It clearly is that simple as that, and if we are talking Penn, for example the State constitution allows for it. What the US Congress  chooses to do is a different matter.

I stand  corrected, it is the US Constitution and not the Pennsylvaina constitution.

The U.S. Constitution gives to State Legislatures the duty of choosing the "manner" in which electors are chosen. "Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress". A State could decide to change the manner at some point in the future and move to electors being chosen by the legislature; but currently the manner they have directed thru their legislation for "appointing" electors is thru popular vote of the citizens and not by fiat of the state legislatures.

The U.S. Constitution gives to Congress the power to determine the date that electors are chosen. "The Congress may determine the time of choosing the electors". Congress has chosen thru Federal statute (3 USC 1 §1) the date on which electors are chosen "The electors of President and Vice President shall be appointed, in each State, on the Tuesday next after the first Monday in November". In this case, Tuesday, November 3, 2020 was the date required by Congress, under its Constitutional mandate, for electors to be appointed by voters choosing candidates and their respective slate of electors as directed under the existing election laws passed by State legislatures. This date becomes important later on in this short essay.

Federal law (3 USC 1 §5) also prohibits States from changing the laws governing how any contested election dispute is settled after the election has been held. "If any State shall have provided, by laws enacted prior to the day fixed for the appointment of the electors [November 3, 2020], for its final determination of any controversy or contest concerning the appointment of all or any of the electors of such State, by judicial or other methods or procedures..."

Pennsylvania, as an example, is clear in its State Constitution on the manner in which contested elections are settled and which branch makes the final determination. The Constitution of Pennsylvania - Article VII § 13 Contested elections: "The trial and determination of contested elections of electors of President and Vice-President... shall be by the courts of law, or by one or more of the law judges thereof. The General Assembly shall, by general law, designate the courts and judges by whom the several classes of election contests shall be tried" and in the same section, just as Federal law does, prohibits any changes after an election has been held—"but no such law assigning jurisdiction, or regulating its exercise, shall apply to any contest arising out of an election held before its passage".

The reason for both Federal and State provisions prohibiting changing the laws that govern elections or contested elections after an election is obvious. Doing so would usurp the will of the citizens who have cast their votes in good faith, by retroactively changing the law.

So using Pennsylvania again as a currently prime example, its legislature is formed by the Pennsylvania Constitution and all of its authority is derived from it. The Constitution does NOT say in Article II that each legislature shall appoint electors; it says "Each state shall appoint" "a number of electors" thru the manner its legislature directs. But, the U.S. Constitution does NOT provide for how each State Legislature is to be fashioned and governed by the individual States; that is left for the States to decide thru their individual State Constitutions. The U.S. Constitution is largely silent on how States govern themselves except that "The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government", its then up to the individual States to decide how to meet that guarantee thru their State Constitutions.

The point here is that if the Pennsylvania Legislature were to decide to ignore the election and vote its own slate of electors by passing legislation after the election has been held, due to a contested election, it would be violating the State Constitution mandate on how contested elections are resolved, Pennsylvania Constitutional and Federal laws that prohibit retroactive legislative changes after an election, and the U.S. Constitution which gives to Congress the power to mandate "the time of choosing the electors" which was November 3rd and therefore has already passed. Which is why, for all of the reasons above, it is extremely unlikely that they would even attempt to do so. They may give some lip service to it in order to coddle some Trump supporters. Actually trying to get away with it would run an extraordinary political risk with a lot of angry voters who turned out in droves, in many cases at a good deal of inconvenience, and who may have suffered a good deal of anxiety about voting during a pandemic.

And if the validity of ballots cast on Nov. 3 is called into question, the Pennsylvania legislature could decide to offer its own slate of electors by invoking Article II of the U.S. Constitution. That section grants state legislatures the right to designate the manner in which electors are selected.

There is NO U.S. Constitutional Article II power granted, independent of the State, to the Pennsylvania legislature to invoke in appointing a slate of electors. That power is granted to the State of Pennsylvania, "Each state shall appoint". The U.S. Constitution further adds "in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct". The difference between the shall and may is important (isn't legalize fun?).

The U.S. Constitution places a burden on the State saying that the "state shall appoint". It also says "in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct", and the legislature may and indeed has directed a manner; BUT not independent of the State to which the burden is given nor independent of the State Constitution under which the legislature was created, from which it derives its powers, and by which it is governed.

The power granted to appoint electors flows this way: The U.S. Constitution grants the power to THE STATE to appoint electors; THE STATE, thru its Constitution, in turn has created a legislature that can enact laws under the State Constitution that direct the manner of appointment (under current law thru its citizens who vote in elections). What the U.S. Constitution has NO provision for is a State Legislature to act outside of, or to violate, its own State Constitution.

There is much more to all of this, but that's more than enough for now. Sorry about all of the bold type, underlining, and all caps. It's somewhat complicated stuff with all of the intersections of Federal and State Constitutions, laws, duties, and obligations. So, it's not easy to communicate without adding a lot of emphasis here and there.

If anyone should reply to this very long post, please don't quote the entire thing. Quote the relevant part or a portion of it. It clutters up the board when entire long posts are quoted.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 05:47:25 pm by TechTalk »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #1119 on: November 12, 2020, 02:49:43 pm »

So instead of saying "link", should I say "do you have any facts to support your opinion"? Would that be impolite?
What proof would you want when I say western civilization and American democracy didn't die?  Here we are.  In any case, when someone gives their opinion, it isn't necessary they provide facts.  After all, it's their opinion.  If you have a different one, just state it.  Let's not get clinical.  This is a photo forum.  IF I say film is better than digital, do you ask for proof?  It's my opinion.  Actually it's easier to prove film still survives than Western civilization still survives.  :)
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