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Author Topic: So where is the new Phase One body  (Read 46294 times)

Chris Livsey

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #80 on: April 29, 2015, 02:38:39 am »

Edmund, You teasing?  ;)
You know very well that since the H3DII the backs and bodies were matched and married by software. Now, having freed the D lenses, also a software limitation, I suppose they could free the backs by an new version, but wouldn't that be rather admitting the matching was not strictly necessary in the first place?

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Theodoros

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #81 on: April 29, 2015, 03:19:22 am »

Hassy have gone open again?  That is GREAT NEWS! However a question: Can a Hassy user mount an old Hassy back on that H5x? In other words can a Hassy back user upgrade his body without buying a new back?

Edmund


H5X is an "open" camera since one can choose the back that he wants to use with the camera... IMO, it would be a good idea for Hasselblad, if they would offer the backs of their H5 system with the H5X body as an alternative choice than the dedicated one and it would be great if they would find a way for users of the H3/3II&4 integrated cameras to use their backs with the H5X...
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eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #82 on: April 29, 2015, 06:44:03 am »

Edmund, You teasing?  ;)
You know very well that since the H3DII the backs and bodies were matched and married by software. Now, having freed the D lenses, also a software limitation, I suppose they could free the backs by an new version, but wouldn't that be rather admitting the matching was not strictly necessary in the first place?



There has been very little information on the topic of running different generation H backs on different body generations. Phase has generously allowed people to switch to a new gen body, eg. AFDII to DF+ although the switch is a little like upgrading from a 1965 VW Beetle to a 1968 VW Beetle;  In Hassy's case switching from an H3 to an H5 might be really useful, but they've locked it down ... while allowing Phase back owners to buy into the latest H bodies. In a way, unless you need T/S, an old P25 for H is far more upgradeable and valuable than an H3D back: Not only can you use C1, but you also get to use a brand new body with good focus and fast lenses center-shutter lenses; at the price I guess (not sure) of two batteries and two chargers.  

Or maybe, as usual I don't know what I'm talking about - feel free to educate me :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 05:05:53 am by eronald »
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Theodoros

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #83 on: April 29, 2015, 03:12:48 pm »

I think there is a subject divergence again... What Hasselblad has done in the past with their complete systems, is completely irrelevant to what the market requires from a new P1 body... Where Hasselblad is relevant, is only as far as competition is concerned since one that is after a P1 back, he may choose to use it on a different (new) body (like H5X for instance as some do)... So, the question is if a new camera from Phamiya, that wouldn't be up to H5X (superior) level of performance and functioning, would be worthwhile or not... or, if the cost and development involved to make a camera that equals (or surpasses) H5X quality, would make the numbers required as to be worthwhile...
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eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2015, 10:29:58 pm »

Not that it is necessarily relevant, in fact it is certainly off-topic,  but Sony seems close to releasing a 56MP SLR, presumably with their signature in-body image stabilisation, and decent DR. Although I do know that MP does not translate directly to a measure of quality, there is some sort of correlation, as we all do admit.

It looks like Zeiss has a new batch of AF lenses that can deliver the necessary resolution  - I'm quite astonished how good the Batis flickr images look at screen resolution. It's almost as if it were worthwhile to get that system just to display on *screen*. Strange. Maybe our friend Bernard is right to be so enthusiastic about his Otus, and the rest of us are now going to be able to get the same quality AND autofocus.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 10:38:50 pm by eronald »
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Chris Livsey

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #85 on: May 01, 2015, 02:52:20 am »

There seems to be a step change in availability of high quality lenses, no doubt stimulated by the high count backs/cameras appearing or predited. I am shooting the new Zeiss ZM Distagon 35mm f1.4 and that is astonishing, on B/W film all my 35mm shots look like they are on 120 (depth of field excepted  ;) )

Absolutely unconnected with a new Phase One body so I apologise profusely.
But, to return to an earlier point the Phase One backs in the P25/30 + range do indeed sell for the same price in the Uk, give or take, as a H3DII39 complete (sometimes with an 80mm as well).
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eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #86 on: May 01, 2015, 09:46:23 am »

There seems to be a step change in availability of high quality lenses, no doubt stimulated by the high count backs/cameras appearing or predited. I am shooting the new Zeiss ZM Distagon 35mm f1.4 and that is astonishing, on B/W film all my 35mm shots look like they are on 120 (depth of field excepted  ;) )

Absolutely unconnected with a new Phase One body so I apologise profusely.
But, to return to an earlier point the Phase One backs in the P25/30 + range do indeed sell for the same price in the Uk, give or take, as a H3DII39 complete (sometimes with an 80mm as well).


Maybe the current MF lenses are about as end-of-life as the Phase bodies, now that the megapixel race is restarting.
In 35mm Sony is ramping up the effective (stabilsed) MPs while upgrading their lenses like crazy, providing an incentive for people to dump C and N.
Fortunately we have the Leica S lenses for MF shooters :)
D'you think they are the equivalent to the Zeiss?

Edmund
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 09:54:48 am by eronald »
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ciccio

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #87 on: May 01, 2015, 09:56:36 am »

i think that a phase will have a very small portion of market in the next future....unless they will change their marketing strategy.
best.
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eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #88 on: May 01, 2015, 10:42:03 am »

i think that a phase will have a very small portion of market in the next future....unless they will change their marketing strategy.
best.

Yes, I think Phase got complacent, they thought  their crown was going to last and the MP race in 35mm was going to slow because Canon and Nikon didn't want to jeopardize their lens range. It was true, Canon resisted the push to more MP.
But Nikon became a Sony customer, and provided them with funding to get their Exmor fullframe range running.
Nikon got a lot of customers.
Then Sony turned round and started revving the camera sensors like cellphone modules. It's all-win for them, either they sell sensors, or they sell their own cameras.
Now Phase, Hassy and Pentax are stuck with seeing their lenses obsoleted faster than they can renew them, and Nikon and Canon are feeling unhappy.  

Interestingly, the Canon guys saw it all coming, they told me years ago that they were not really frightened of Nikon but that Sony scared them. It would seem there are quite a few non-idiots in this business. Maybe there is decent money still to be made in photography. At least in making cameras :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 10:47:46 am by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #89 on: May 01, 2015, 03:28:59 pm »

Hi Ronald,

Those purported images with the 7RII may be just fakes and bad fakes at that. Check the enclosed sample for actual pixels.

On the other hand, Diglloyd published the MTF data for both"Batis" lenses and I would say they are quite impressive. The Batis 85/1.8 at full aperture may actually outperform the Otus at full aperture according to the MTF data, but the MTF doesn't say a terrible lot about out of focus rendition. At optimum aperture (f/4) the Otus seems to be almost incredible with the Batis a bit behind. Seriously interested in those lenses, but I am waiting for a body to put it on.

Best regards
Erik

Not that it is necessarily relevant, in fact it is certainly off-topic,  but Sony seems close to releasing a 56MP SLR, presumably with their signature in-body image stabilisation, and decent DR. Although I do know that MP does not translate directly to a measure of quality, there is some sort of correlation, as we all do admit.

It looks like Zeiss has a new batch of AF lenses that can deliver the necessary resolution  - I'm quite astonished how good the Batis flickr images look at screen resolution. It's almost as if it were worthwhile to get that system just to display on *screen*. Strange. Maybe our friend Bernard is right to be so enthusiastic about his Otus, and the rest of us are now going to be able to get the same quality AND autofocus.

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #90 on: May 01, 2015, 05:44:44 pm »

Maybe our friend Bernard is right to be so enthusiastic about his Otus, and the rest of us are now going to be able to get the same quality AND autofocus.

How can U even imagine that I, Bernard the First with a big F, may not have been right all along?  ???

But if something as good and more compact can be head, I am all for it. In the mean time I'll continue to enjoy both the Otii. Here the 85mm f1.4 on the D810 at f1.4. My success ratio of perfectly focused images is now a bit higher with the MF Otus than it is with the AF Nikkor 85mm f1.4 AF-S.



And yes, I am sure that Phaseone is working on a new body that is bound to be excellent and I will definitely consider it if the price is sensible.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 05:49:08 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #91 on: May 01, 2015, 08:07:59 pm »

Hi Ronald,

Those purported images with the 7RII may be just fakes and bad fakes at that. Check the enclosed sample for actual pixels.

On the other hand, Diglloyd published the MTF data for both"Batis" lenses and I would say they are quite impressive. The Batis 85/1.8 at full aperture may actually outperform the Otus at full aperture according to the MTF data, but the MTF doesn't say a terrible lot about out of focus rendition. At optimum aperture (f/4) the Otus seems to be almost incredible with the Batis a bit behind. Seriously interested in those lenses, but I am waiting for a body to put it on.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

 I don't have an opinion about the veracity of those images. Maybe someone else?
 As regards Otus etc, I need AF, but I really like Bernard's images.
 I wonder if Sony has a servo-zoom with the same quality coming as well ...

Edmund

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NickT

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #92 on: May 02, 2015, 01:04:33 am »

I don't have an opinion


What? Really?
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eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #93 on: May 02, 2015, 01:11:54 am »

And yes, I am sure that Phaseone is working on a new body that is bound to be excellent and I will definitely consider it if the price is sensible.

Cheers,
Bernard

Amen :)

I think with those facts established we can now safely close the thread.

Edmund
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 02:30:02 am by eronald »
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jduncan

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #94 on: May 02, 2015, 06:02:28 pm »

Yes, I think Phase got complacent, they thought  their crown was going to last and the MP race in 35mm was going to slow because Canon and Nikon didn't want to jeopardize their lens range. It was true, Canon resisted the push to more MP.
But Nikon became a Sony customer, and provided them with funding to get their Exmor fullframe range running.
Nikon got a lot of customers.
Then Sony turned round and started revving the camera sensors like cellphone modules. It's all-win for them, either they sell sensors, or they sell their own cameras.
Now Phase, Hassy and Pentax are stuck with seeing their lenses obsoleted faster than they can renew them, and Nikon and Canon are feeling unhappy.  

Interestingly, the Canon guys saw it all coming, they told me years ago that they were not really frightened of Nikon but that Sony scared them. It would seem there are quite a few non-idiots in this business. Maybe there is decent money still to be made in photography. At least in making cameras :)

Edmund

Love your last take, about the non idiots. In the other hand, I am not sure Phase got complacent, their dealers seem to believe that there is no competency whatsoever for  "team phase one" but I don't believe they are complacent, I believe they don't have an option (besides talking). Phase One develop the sensor plus technology  with Dalsa, that a mighty effort. But the writing was in the wall (CMOS). DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras are coming with multi shoot, the last bastion of MF cameras.

It will be a petty if MF vendors are not able to survive, but, the Earth is used to losses and extinctions,  we wont be here without the extinction  of the dinosaurs.

Best regards
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amsp

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #95 on: May 04, 2015, 12:32:10 pm »

If only photographers like Annie Leibovitz were as enlightened and knowledgeable as you gentlemen, then they'd immediately throw out those useless medium format cameras and run out to buy whatever it is you measurebators are praising this week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRwuD68NHoI
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synn

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #96 on: May 04, 2015, 12:36:09 pm »

Hi Ronald,

Those purported images with the 7RII may be just fakes and bad fakes at that. Check the enclosed sample for actual pixels.

On the other hand, Diglloyd published the MTF data for both"Batis" lenses and I would say they are quite impressive. The Batis 85/1.8 at full aperture may actually outperform the Otus at full aperture according to the MTF data, but the MTF doesn't say a terrible lot about out of focus rendition. At optimum aperture (f/4) the Otus seems to be almost incredible with the Batis a bit behind. Seriously interested in those lenses, but I am waiting for a body to put it on.

Best regards
Erik


Erik,

What do you mean by fake? That screenshot you showed is of an image from the Carl Zeiss Flickr page, and that"s as official as they come.
Anyway, if THAT is the state-of-the-art in 35mm, I actually feel kinda sorry. There is nothing amazing or astonishing about that image, be it resolution, rendering or tonality.

Please take a look at the 100% screengrab from my "Ancient" medium format back with an "End of life" lens (As the great Mr. PhD has put it) did yesterday. And please don"t blame AF for the Zeiss sample, my camera only has one AF point and it nails focus almost every single time I want it to.
You folk can measurebate all you want with your MTF charts, but I still laugh at my ass off at every single "MF killer" sample I see. A new Phase body will only widen the gap and I can live without it for quite some time.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 12:38:46 pm by synn »
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synn

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #97 on: May 04, 2015, 12:50:22 pm »

Yes, I think Phase got complacent, they thought  their crown was going to last and the MP race in 35mm was going to slow because Canon and Nikon didn't want to jeopardize their lens range. It was true, Canon resisted the push to more MP.
But Nikon became a Sony customer, and provided them with funding to get their Exmor fullframe range running.
Nikon got a lot of customers.
Then Sony turned round and started revving the camera sensors like cellphone modules. It's all-win for them, either they sell sensors, or they sell their own cameras.
Now Phase, Hassy and Pentax are stuck with seeing their lenses obsoleted faster than they can renew them, and Nikon and Canon are feeling unhappy.  

Interestingly, the Canon guys saw it all coming, they told me years ago that they were not really frightened of Nikon but that Sony scared them. It would seem there are quite a few non-idiots in this business. Maybe there is decent money still to be made in photography. At least in making cameras :)

Edmund

This is the biggest bunch of BS I have ever read from you and that's saying a lot.

Go look at the sample I posted above, compare that to your beloved Zeiss sample and give me one reason to consider your PoV of MF being deprecated by whatever flavor of the month you're jumping up and down about.

You've been jumping from point to point with little coherence, raising strawman arguments one after the other with no clear point to make. Most of your "facts" are pulled out of thin air or from places where the sun don't shine and when people who have actual experience with the gear you're trying to mock chime in, you accuse them of being on the payroll of Phase.

Seriously Edmund, go out and smell the fresh air some time. You really need it.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #98 on: May 04, 2015, 02:43:14 pm »

If only photographers like Annie Leibovitz were as enlightened and knowledgeable as you gentlemen, then they'd immediately throw out those useless medium format cameras and run out to buy whatever it is you measurebators are praising this week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRwuD68NHoI

Interesting, Hasselblad body with name plate missing (see .05 secs in) and IQ back.
The dream team?  ;)
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #99 on: May 04, 2015, 03:58:26 pm »

Hi Synn,

Have you actually checked that image at actual pixels? It has all signs of bad processing. That site is not an official Zeiss site, BTW.

This is said to be the official Zeiss site on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/groups/carlzeisslenses

While the other page is: https://www.flickr.com/photos/carlzeisslenses/

Just to make a few small points. Zeiss likes MTF data, they even publish them. Just because you ignore measured data it doesn't mean it is not useful. Lens designers use them all the time. Leica also loves MTF data, they also publish them.

The attached images are close up shots with my Sony Alpha 99 (which has 24 MP) using a 25 year old Minolta Macro 100/2.8 at f/11 and the other one is with the Planar 120/4 at f/11 on the P45+. Focus was on the yellow pistills. Same image just different actual pixel crops.

What I have seen on the Carl Zeiss lenses for the Hasselblad is that they are very sharp at the center. Edges/Corners are not so good on the shorter lenses, but still hold up to close scrutiny at A2-size , that I normally print.

Best regards
Erik



Erik,

What do you mean by fake? That screenshot you showed is of an image from the Carl Zeiss Flickr page, and that"s as official as they come.
Anyway, if THAT is the state-of-the-art in 35mm, I actually feel kinda sorry. There is nothing amazing or astonishing about that image, be it resolution, rendering or tonality.

Please take a look at the 100% screengrab from my "Ancient" medium format back with an "End of life" lens (As the great Mr. PhD has put it) did yesterday. And please don"t blame AF for the Zeiss sample, my camera only has one AF point and it nails focus almost every single time I want it to.
You folk can measurebate all you want with your MTF charts, but I still laugh at my ass off at every single "MF killer" sample I see. A new Phase body will only widen the gap and I can live without it for quite some time.

Cheers.
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