Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on April 19, 2015, 05:02:30 pm
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I do wonder, Doug and Steve have told us so often now that there is a new Phase body for the "open" Phase One system just around the corner and so we billionaires should refrain from buying Inferior Pentax or Hopeless Hassy. So where is this new Premium Phase body which is always "going to be released soon"?
Edmund
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The Nikon "selfie stick" threw Phase One for a loop. Now they are postponing the release of the new body until they can engineer and release their own selfie stick to make their "ecosystem" more competitive with Nikon's. :D
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I do wonder, Doug and Steve have told us so often now that there is a new Phase body for the "open" Phase One system just around the corner and so we billionaires should refrain from buying Inferior Pentax or Hopeless Hassy. So where is this new Premium Phase body which is always "going to be released soon"?
Edmund
Hmm, Edmund, I can't speak for Doug, but for my part, that's quite a story you've invented that supposedly came out of my mouth. As one of our finest provocateurs, perhaps your sharp and funny little arrows are better aimed a bit more accurately?
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Hmm, Edmund, I can't speak for Doug, but for my part, that's quite a story you've invented that supposedly came out of my mouth. As one of our finest provocateurs, perhaps your sharp and funny little arrows are better aimed a bit more accurately?
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Well Steve, coming from one of our most respected dealers, your denial surely carries more weight than my wholly invented or at least shamefully misattributed rumor :)
Clearly, as Mark Twain might have said, the rumors of such a new body have been greatly exaggerated ...
Edmund
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Well Steve, I am sure that your denial carries more weight than my wholly invented or at least shamefully misattributed rumor :)
Clearly, as Mark Twain might have said, the rumors of such a new body have been greatly exaggerated ...
Edmund
The delivery dates clearly remain elusive.
But Edmond, since it is just you and me here, and I know that I can trust you, I'm going to tell you everything I know, as long as you promise not to share it with anyone.
I have been told that the is indeed . And delivery dates, while , are apparently .
In the meantime, there is this wonderful news about the Phase One Camera:
https://captureintegration.com/phaseonecamera (https://captureintegration.com/phase-one-df-kit-promotion-april-2015/)
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Does this go along with the other thread about the new S Leica being delayed until 2nd Quarter this year when it was originally announced it was going to be released 2nd Quarter this year? LOL
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=99055.0
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Looks like Edmund forgot his meds again...
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Looks like Edmund forgot his meds again...
Hello Synn,
Long time no see!
I heard you were close with Phase, and doing a test of the new body and the IQ270 back with the coming larger Sony sensor.
How d'you like the camera body? Does the new contrast-detetction touch-screen-focus system work well? Is it compatible with the IQ250 back?
Is the new sensor improved or is it the same as the IQ250, just larger?
Inquiring minds and rumormongers want to know!
Edmund
Reference: Phase forum post - Can the DF+ with the IQ250 do Live View auto focus? (http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=15779)
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The point of this thread is what?
To show how really smart and amusing eronald is?
Are you planning to buy a Phase camera? Is your Phase back just sitting there with no good use? Do you own a camera at all?
(I'm assuming that all the shorter replies I might have chosen would violate some forum rule or other.)
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The point of this thread is what?
To show how really smart and amusing eronald is?
Are you planning to buy a Phase camera? Is your Phase back just sitting there with no good use? Do you own a camera at all?
(I'm assuming that all the shorter replies I might have chosen would violate some forum rule or other.)
He needs some attention I guess.
Kidding aside yes, quite a few people are waiting for the new PhaseOne Body to come out. Although that number is less and less as months go by. The H4x and H5x bodies are very good and Phase backs work great with them so no rush. ;D
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The point of this thread is what?
As J.P. Morgan said: ' If you need to ask the price, you can't afford it ' ~)
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The point of this thread is what?
What is the point of anything? [/philosophy]
To show how really smart and amusing eronald is?
Please identify your sources when attempting to state facts.
Are you planning to buy a Phase camera?
He probably owns a Phase camera and is troubled by how terrible it is.
Is your Phase back just sitting there with no good use?
Assuming it's on a tech cam, he's getting good use out of it.
Do you own a camera at all?
One doesn't need to own a camera to talk about cameras, nor engage in actual photography if they do.
(I'm assuming that all the shorter replies I might have chosen would violate some forum rule or other.)
nope
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Hello Synn,
Long time no see!
I heard you were close with Phase, and doing a test of the new body and the IQ270 back with the coming larger Sony sensor.
How d'you like the camera body? Does the new contrast-detetction touch-screen-focus system work well? Is it compatible with the IQ250 back?
Is the new sensor improved or is it the same as the IQ250, just larger?
Inquiring minds and rumormongers want to know!
Edmund
Reference: Phase forum post - Can the DF+ with the IQ250 do Live View auto focus? (http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=15779)
lol.
Good to see that the world renouned MF hater and D800 lover FredBGG is still alive and kicking on the internet, on the Phase forum of all places.
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He probably owns a Phase camera and is troubled by how terrible it is.
He owned one for about 5 minutes.
That is the extent of MF related experience for one of the most active posters in the MF sub forum.
Something something about empty vessels and loud noises.
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Something something about empty vessels and loud noises.
Synn,
Is this a categorical denial of the points above? No new body, no new larger-sensor back, it's not called IQ270, there is no contrast detect, no touch-focus or you just don't like it?
Edmund
PS. If you want to call someone names, at least do it gracefully. Your nutshell characterisation of Fred, "world renouned MF hater and D800 lover" is nice, but " renowned MF hater, D800 lover and fashion shooter" would have been so much better :)
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I liked it a lot, but I told Phase that I am holding out for the groundbreaking open source camera that you were working on since, I dunno... A year ago?
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Jokes aside, the lack of a newly overhauled body is the main reason why I still stay away from Phase.
I think Phase One has been working too slow on this.
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I certainly hope that Phase can come out with a completely new body and I'll be pleasantly surprised if they can do it. I have an idea what it cost to create the H platform and the numbers are pretty eye-watering, hard to see an ROI in this market.
Nick-T
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I certainly hope that Phase can come out with a completely new body and I'll be pleasantly surprised if they can do it. I have an idea what it cost to create the H platform and the numbers are pretty eye-watering, hard to see an ROI in this market.
Nick-T
Did you know that Waiting for Godot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_Godot)was voted "the most significant English language play of the 20th century ? I walked out after the first act.
If I were feeling ironic, rather than just being moronic, I would forecast that Phase is more likely to use their institutional and military cashflow to replay the knifing of the Sinar/Leaf baby, and buy Hassy and retire the H series, than they are of ever selling a decent dSLR-type camera.
Taking pictures is part of Hassy's DNA, but the practice of taking the shot is simply *not* part of Phase One's DNA. Phase is a back company.
Taking the shot *is* part of Pentax's heritage which is why they've come back from nowhere. The same with Leica.
In the same way, Phase are stellar at computer image processing, and out-process Adobe which is a multi-billion dollar corporation: Adobe is culturally incapable of sophisticated single-image Raw color and tone curve management, although they are really good in workflow organisation and retouching software.
My analysis of Phase One's strengths is confirmed every time I see a photographer on this forum mount his extraordinary Phase back on a Hassy, tether and convert with Phase One's superb C1 software, and retouch with Photoshop. And my analysis of Phase One's weakness and priorities is confirmed every year as the "new" Phase body that can focus perfectly fails to appear. :)
But I do think in the end we will get a very nice "no-mirror" lensbox from Phase, which will do fast on-sensor AF, and use the leaf-shutter lenses for flash sync when electronic shutter is not appropriate. This sort of computer-driven object is in Phase's DNA.
My advice: Whatever the camera, buy the center-shutter lenses, they're the ones which will keep their value best. And if Godot's dSLR does not drop soon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_Godot), then I'd predict that the next Phase body will already be mirrorless. Leica, Hassy and Pentax are headed that way too now that they have liveview sensors, but they're in less of a hurry because their current bodies are pretty good. And they're in less of a hurry because cameras, not backs, are what they make.
Edmund
PS. It is possible to do very fast AF with a liveview sensor with no phase-contrast pixels, provided one characterises the lenses. This is the "depth from defocus" method which is used by the Panasonic GH4. According to Panasonic, the $1K GH4 with no dedicated focus sensors is beaten in focus speed only by the ... Nikon D4s. A second place which our japanese friends at Panasonic accept with a humble smile :)
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I believe that new stand alone MF camera body sales are so low, that no maker will invest in other than improving bits of it... Maybe the major mount for future Phamiya backs will be the Hasselblad H mount with... C645 being second and M645 third...
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I believe that new stand alone MF camera body sales are so low, that no maker will invest in other than improving bits of it... Maybe the major mount for future Phamiya backs will be the Hasselblad H mount with... C645 being second and M645 third...
Development costs are falling very fast - a mirrorless shutterless body is just a box with a lens mount and a back mount ...the smarts can be in the back.
Edmund
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Taking pictures is part of Hassy's DNA, but the practice of taking the shot is simply *not* part of Phase One's DNA. Phase is a back company.
I guess you forgot about these guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamiya). I don't blame you, they have only been around for 75 years or so.
I really do wonder why you have this hobby of stirring the shitpot every few weeks. You clearly have no intention of getting a phase camera, while those who own it either work around the limitations or have moved to other camera bodies/ rival platforms that satisfy their needs. While Phase clearly has a problem to solve, It is pathetically hilarious that the loudest critics like you or your mancrush FredBGG are also the ones who clearly don't intend to give Phase any of your cash, even if they built a Jesuscam that can cure cancer.
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PS. It is possible to do very fast AF with a liveview sensor with no phase-contrast pixels, provided one characterises the lenses. This is the "depth from defocus" method which is used by the Panasonic GH4. According to Panasonic, the $1K GH4 with no dedicated focus sensors is beaten in focus speed only by the ... Nikon D4s. A second place which our japanese friends at Panasonic accept with a humble smile :)
Your posts are really entertaining! ;D
As a side note, perhaps the AF motor in the Phase One lenses does not work well with contrast detection AF. This has been true for the Nikon lenses - Live View AF is awfully slow for the D4S.
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I guess you forgot about these guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamiya). I don't blame you, they have only been around for 75 years or so.
I really do wonder why you have this hobby of stirring the shitpot every few weeks. You clearly have no intention of getting a phase camera, while those who own it either work around the limitations or have moved to other camera bodies/ rival platforms that satisfy their needs. While Phase clearly has a problem to solve, It is pathetically hilarious that the loudest critics like you or your mancrush FredBGG are also the ones who clearly don't intend to give Phase any of your cash, even if they built a Jesuscam that can cure cancer.
Synn, there is the official Phase One forum (http://forum.phaseone.com/En/), which is very helpful and professionally run and gets you fast answers to precise questions about Phase hardware or software — let's not forget that C1 is much used, and arguably the world's best Raw processing software— and then there is this place which is a brand-agnostic venue, ever so rowdy, with unqualified posters.
Here, neither ownership nor portofolio are required for entrance. So havoc, mayhem, loud opinions, and fools are to be expected, and fun can be had :)
BTW I like your post, it reminds some of us of the good old days at the RG forum ...
Now, as we were speaking of obsolete hardware still taking good pictures, I have an old Hasselblad SWC (original silver version) which I think I will sooner or later get a back for - anyone here have an opinion about that camera when used with a digiback? I'm hesitating between an old Phase back and an old Hasselblad back with the interchangeable mount, or even the occasional 16 megapixel CFV that pops up for sale.
Edmund
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and then there is this place which is ever so rowdy, with unqualified posters.
Apart from this little bit of self awareness that you've demonstrated, that post was a masterstroke at deflection.
You should conduct workshops for politicians.
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Your posts are really entertaining! ;D
As a side note, perhaps the AF motor in the Phase One lenses does not work well with contrast detection AF. This has been true for the Nikon lenses - Live View AF is awfully slow for the D4S.
Voidshatter,
You may be right about lenses needing some specific design features to work well with contrast-detect AF, but I wonder if depth-from-defocus isn't closer to phase contrast in execution - ie jump the lens to a precalculated position, maybe doing one or two stops for intermediate measurements. I do wonder why only Panasonic are *officially* doing this.
Maybe someone here knows about AF and practical lens design, and can inform this discusson?
Of course if one has multi-axis shift mechanism for the sensor, like the Sony A7II, one can probably do not only multi-shot but also cute things like touchscreen tilt -AF with either focus method ... or even use sensor shift to real-time refocus a prefocused manual-focus lens if the subject has moved or the focus was imprecise.
It's nice to see innovation, but it sure takes a long time to get to MF.
Edmund
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I can totally understand your ideas and I agree that a fast contrast AF activated by touch-screen (e.g. the micro four thirds cameras) would be a game changer for capturing the decisive moments. Unfortunately as you said technology lag more for cameras with bigger sensors.
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"The smarts can be in the back?" Is that part of the planned eronald DB project?
A dumb body is already available, from ALPA, Arca, Cambo, and others. With the right lenses and the eronald back, there'd be no need for a new Phase camera.
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My project died, the industrial backer pulled out.
But Brian now has a project, which I am sure will be exactly as good as it's open source.
I don't think though that he has a movable sensor design for focus.
Edmund
"The smarts can be in the back?" Is that part of the planned eronald DB project?
A dumb body is already available, from ALPA, Arca, Cambo, and others. With the right lenses and the eronald back, there'd be no need for a new Phase camera.
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I think the DF/DF+ could use some love, and the vendors I've chatted with always mention a new body was in development. Currently Hassy has TrueFocus, and the Pentax has both lots of af points and focus peaking in live view, so there is one thing they could work out. Plus, anything in the af micro-adjustment tuning realm would be welcomed. I have always thought that a back that could pair with the body via bluetooth would be really slick - I mean, take the on body menu down to the 4 user selected options as selected via the link to the back or a phone/tablet.
It's tough to be in a situation where you have lots of lenses and backs out there, and everything legacy has to work, and yet you want to push forward.
Oh, and make a VGrip without the Air function, and put a hot shoe up top for speedlight use :)
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My project died, the industrial backer pulled out.
That's what happens when one presents vaporware, wishful thinking and vitriol as a businessplan to serious investers.
And yet, he thinks he can teach Phase to do their daily job better. :D
Good thing that Brian seems more level headed and has a more realistic approach to differentiate his offering in the market. I wish him all the best and look forward to his solution.
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Good thing that Brian seems more level headed and has a more realistic approach to differentiate his offering in the market. I wish him all the best and look forward to his solution.
Actually, my industrial partner were not mainly interested at all in a back, they were interested in exploring the CMOS technology for a different reason, and they dropped out because they unexpectedly got some contracts based on a different product line, which made them too busy. While they were hesitating, and not ordering the dev kits, I lost the time I had available for the fulltime hacking needed to get the project started. Next time I do a project I will buy all the gear myself, even if I need to sell a camera to do it, and not wait for anybody, I made the mistake here of trying to invest as little as possible. I hope Brian won't be dependent on anyone else.
Edmund
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new phase body will come with the new full frame back...2 quarter 2016 , all together for a new kit .best.
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new phase body will come with the new full frame back...2 quarter 2016 , all together for a new kit .best.
Next "Apollon" launch will be on 2018 for Jupiter, crowed will be humans and robots... best.
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new phase body will come with the new full frame back...2 quarter 2016 , all together for a new kit .best.
Yes, a Photokina 2016 launch for an entirely new mirrorless system, possibly with a more modern sensor technology sounds quite feasible, but I would still expect a prelaunch of an IQ270 containing a larger sensor before the end of this year: Canon are now already at 50MP with their SLRs, and it is clear that Nikon and Sony will follow. High MP numbers are an important marketing talking point. A larger sensor similar to the existing one would conserve the excellent DR of the IQ250 while decreasing the crop factor, and require little new software development, for the back firmware or for Raw conversion: It's a drop in.
Nothing like a good rumor and some speculation in the absence of ground truth.
Edmund
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Yes, a Photokina 2016 launch for an entirely new mirrorless system, possibly with a more modern sensor technology sounds quite feasible, but I would still expect a prelaunch of an IQ270 containing a larger sensor before the end of this year: Canon are now already at 50MP with their SLRs, and it is clear that Nikon and Sony will follow. High MP numbers are an important marketing talking point. A larger sensor similar to the existing one would conserve the excellent DR of the IQ250 while decreasing the crop factor, and require little new software development, for the back firmware or for Raw conversion: It's a drop in.
Nothing like a good rumor and some speculation in the absence of ground truth.
Edmund
Actually, I believe that the ΙQ 270 will be of 72.2345 mp....
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I do wonder, Doug and Steve have told us so often now that there is a new Phase body for the "open" Phase One system just around the corner and so we billionaires should refrain from buying Inferior Pentax or Hopeless Hassy. So where is this new Premium Phase body which is always "going to be released soon"?
I don't recall saying anything like this.
I have said that Phase One considers the development of a body every bit as bad-ass as their IQ/IQ2 generation of backs to be their highest priority. I stand by that now more than ever.
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I don't recall saying anything like this.
I have said that Phase One considers the development of a body every bit as bad-ass as their IQ/IQ2 generation of backs to be their highest priority. I stand by that now more than ever.
Sure they do... (consider one). What about Mamiya? ...do they "consider" one too?
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I have said that Phase One considers the development of a body every bit as bad-ass as their IQ/IQ2 generation of backs to be their highest priority. I stand by that now more than ever.
Hmm, I'm not sure that saying "Sweetheart, you're every bit as beautiful as I am", increases one's chances of staying married :)
Edmund
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Hmm, I'm not sure that saying "Sweetheart, you're as beautiful as I am", increases one's chances of staying married :)
Edmund
Great analogy. If only you were actually married to the said sweetheart in the first place.
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One thing is certain: For institutional static use, Sony 35mm multishot is going to be fighting with Phase MF monoshot at a huge price differential.
Like Apple with Samsung, Phase is in the very uncomfortable situation of competing with its main component supplier.
Edmund
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One thing is certain: For institutional static use, Sony 35mm multishot is going to be fighting with Phase MF monoshot at a huge price differential.
Anything institutional will afford to own what an expert will recommend them to own, the hardware expense isn't likely to be very significant against all of their other expenditures. High-end scanning systems, Hasselblad multi-shot, the Phase "Cultural Heritage" edition - I don't think cutting corners is even on the table.
For the average photographer who does this kind of stuff on the side, an inexpensive MS camera may definitely add something to the resume for little extra cost, but a museum that intends to exploit the system for a decade of use to preserve historically important artifacts can afford that kind of price differential.
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Anything institutional will afford to own what an expert will recommend them to own, the hardware expense isn't likely to be very significant against all of their other expenditures. High-end scanning systems, Hasselblad multi-shot, the Phase "Cultural Heritage" edition - I don't think cutting corners is even on the table.
For the average photographer who does this kind of stuff on the side, an inexpensive MS camera may definitely add something to the resume for little extra cost, but a museum that intends to exploit the system for a decade of use to preserve historically important artifacts can afford that kind of price differential.
This.
I will never cease to be amused by how Mr. PhD can speak with authority on behalf of commercial photographers, cultural institutions and everything in between without a day's worth of experience in these areas of business. You don't see Frank Doorhof posting here disputing his coding experience, do you?
P.S. I have done zero business with DT, but their custom made archival rig can reproduce art several times bigger and better than any small format system with sensor shift can do. Customers who use and demand output of that quality are not going to switch overnight just because there is a cheap multishot small format option.
That's about as asinine as saying that Glenmorangie would be out of business just because Aldi has a new in house scotch brand at 1/10th the price.
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This.
I will never cease to be amused by how Mr. PhD can speak with authority on behalf of commercial photographers, cultural institutions and everything in between without a day's worth of experience in these areas of business. You don't see Frank Doorhof posting here disputing his coding experience, do you?
P.S. I have done zero business with DT, but their custom made archival rig can reproduce art several times bigger and better than any small format system with sensor shift can do. Customers who use and demand output of that quality are not going to switch overnight just because there is a cheap multishot small format option.
That's about as asinine as saying that Glenmorangie would be out of business just because Aldi has a new in house scotch brand at 1/10th the price.
Dear Synn, measurements do not describe a system's ergonomics, or workflow suitability, as you rightly indicate, and there is no reason why an institution that uses Phase or Hassy should switch over.
However, in the US museums usually acquire their collections by donation or endowment, and thus if they have art valued at millions they have commensurate staff and budgets. In Europe there are a lot of small regional museums, archives, libraries and churches, which have very valuable art and old books and manuscripts, but next to zero budgets.
Small underfunded institutions and churches here in Europe will probably go with whatever is cheap to source locally, and Sony Pentax and Canon have a sales agent in every smallish town. I don't see Father Christmas appearing and donating a Phase system or a Cruse scanner to many of these places who struggle with their roof repairs.
Edmund
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So you're saying that phase is gonna lose customers they never had in the first place...
I can see how your business plan never got off the paper.
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For the record I do not anticipate that we will be selling these with a Pentax 35mm camera. ;D
DT BC100 Book Capture Station (http://dtdch.com/page/bc100-book-capture-system)
(http://dtdch.com/images/site/products/dt-bc100-book.png)
Jokes aside, it might be informative to understand that in general Institutes of Cultural Heritage make their decisions based off of ROI (return on investment) and program-total-costs rather than initial cash outlays. When you consider the costs of labor (not just the camera operator but the rest of the team surrounding any digitization program), computers/stands/facilities, server maintenance and other operational and overhead costs, the cost of any camera system (whether $1k or $50k) is negligible in those calculations over even a few months, let alone the life of the equipment.
I can't vouch for what institutions do that can barely keep a roof over their head, but even smaller institutions are investing considerable sums into digitization programs that comply with FADGI standards (http://www.dtdch.com/page/fadgi-image-performance-report).
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Small underfunded institutions and churches here in Europe will probably go with whatever is cheap to source locally, and Sony Pentax and Canon have a sales agent in every smallish town. I don't see Father Christmas appearing and donating a Phase system or a Cruse scanner to many of these places who struggle with their roof repairs.
If they don't have a large enough collection to warrant the expense, one can hire a person or company from the next town over that are well equipped, and if they're struggling with just getting by, I don't think that they're thinking of splurging on high-end photography either. It's a middle ground that I don't think exists unless the curator also happens to be a photography enthusiast.
Even if Sony, Canon and Pentax have sales agents everywhere, where's the guarantee that they offer anything high-end? My local Apple dealer doesn't carry Mac Pros, the local photography stores rarely even have 5D3s or D810s, so a Pentax store then isn't obliged to carry the 645.
Like Apple with Samsung, Phase is in the very uncomfortable situation of competing with its main component supplier.
I glanced over this bit before but it's also wrong. Phase is not in any kind of situation, they carved out their own niche and few products really compete, none of which are from Sony. In fact Sony must be happy and surprised at how well their new sensor is selling. Component suppliers will never truly create uncomfortable situations, whoever sells more, they win.
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Doug,
As always, I wish you the best of luck for your sales - in my opinion, the customers who have this sort of budget couldn't find a better dealer to look after them.
Edmund
For the record I do not anticipate that we will be selling these with a Pentax 35mm camera. ;D
DT BC100 Book Capture Station (http://dtdch.com/page/bc100-book-capture-system)
(http://dtdch.com/images/site/products/dt-bc100-book.png)
Jokes aside, it might be informative to understand that in general Institutes of Cultural Heritage make their decisions based off of ROI (return on investment) and program-total-costs rather than initial cash outlays. When you consider the costs of labor (not just the camera operator but the rest of the team surrounding any digitization program), computers/stands/facilities, server maintenance and other operational and overhead costs, the cost of any camera system (whether $1k or $50k) is negligible in those calculations over even a few months, let alone the life of the equipment.
I can't vouch for what institutions do that can barely keep a roof over their head, but even smaller institutions are investing considerable sums into digitization programs that comply with FADGI standards (http://www.dtdch.com/page/fadgi-image-performance-report).
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Synn
If you feel nervous that the Phase product is disrespected in these discussions, I could easily arrange for a quick MTF and DR test comparison against Canon or Nikon that would clear matters up, and irrefutably demonstrate the system's superiority ;D
Edmund
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My POV on a new Phase One/Mamiya camera is quite simple... P1 where smart enough to make their backs accessible from many users of different cameras and these backs can are interchangeable with older camera bodies of the same maker... Clearly there are many users that buy their backs on other than M645 mount and there are others that upgrade their backs while keeping their older M645 camera.
So, it all depends on how many sales does the camera body do... If it is thousands, a new camera body may be considered, if it is a few hundreds, It maybe wise not to bother... After all, a new body should be up to H5X level of quality to be worthwhile and that should require a good investment to be achieved... (otherwise I see no reason why one shouldn't consider buying an H body with a P1 back - many do).
That said, I believe that P1 would have raised their share in the market further if they would have supported Rollei 6XXX & HY6 cameras... I also believe that P1 would be even stronger in the market if they had multishot backs on offer and if their backs where adapted to different cameras via interchangeable plates... IMO, if Hasselblad wouldn't have closed the H system in the past and if they would have kept their CF interchangeable backs in production... P1 would have been a market follower of them by now, I also believe that if Pentax ever decides to offer a higher end version of their 645 camera with interchangeable back and even offer the back in more mounts than their own, P1 will lose the vast majority of their current customers to them....
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Synn
If you feel nervous that the Phase product is disrespected in these discussions, I could easily arrange for a quick MTF and DR test comparison against Canon or Nikon that would clear matters up, and irrefutably demonstrate the system's superiority ;D
Edmund
I am not nervous about anything other than the fact that a person who has only a negligible experience in medium format is allowed to go on and on about it in these forums as if he is an expert.
you can save the MTF charts for your weekly geek club meet up or whatever. I make my gear decisions on how they work for me in real life shooting conditions.
unless of course, your comparison would include the Edmund Ronald PhD vaporware edition digital back. I for one would LOVE to see the superiority of that!
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A serious question: What is a troll?
I know the term has pejorative connotations in the internet world, but doesn't someone who posts on threads simply to stir up trouble qualify?
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A person who starts threads like "so where is the new phase body?" And calling out two well respected dealers, all the while having zero interest to move to medium format certainly qualifies as a troll.
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For the record I do not anticipate that we will be selling these with a Pentax 35mm camera. ;D
DT BC100 Book Capture Station (http://dtdch.com/page/bc100-book-capture-system)
Awesome setup, thanks for sharing Doug.
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There are even some low end DIY setups. Wikipedia says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_scanning) " High-end scanners capable of thousands of pages per hour can cost thousands of dollars, but do-it-yourself (DIY), manual book scanners capable of 1200 pages per hour have been built for US$300.[1]"
Over the years I've seen some very capable cheapish automated designs, but the really smart systems eg. used by Google are said to be capable of tracking page distorsions by tricks like scanning the page with a laser. Maybe Doug can tell us more about the capabilities of the setups he sells?
I think the market is so huge that there is room for every product and price range, from Doug's US museum-grade products, down to the use of a 20MP cellphone with a couple of LED strip lights.
I wonder how the Mormons are copying all those birth registers? Does anybody know?
Edmund
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So all this niche infighting aside, I really would like a camera that can focus. I'll pay.
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A person who starts threads like "so where is the new phase body?" And calling out two well respected dealers, all the while having zero interest to move to medium format certainly qualifies as a troll.
A little push-back is a healthy thing in my view. I don't expect to hear push-back from people who want to move to medium format.
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check out this article ...
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/volunteer-mormons-save-state-millions-by-digitising-historic-records-20141024-116icb.html
you can see their setup in the background
cheers
Jeremy
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So all this niche infighting aside, I really would like a camera that can focus. I'll pay.
As this thread has confirmed, Phase's best feature is the superb back/software integration and seamless tethering.
The main attraction of Hassy as I see it is that they do have a modern body with very good focus, and fast flash sync across the lens range.
Nice backs from Phase, nice bodies from Hassy - that has been the situation for 10 years, I don't see it changing.
It's up to you to decide which features you need most.
Edmund
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Yeah that's unfortunate, I've been waiting for something viable from them for a few years now. The back puts out amazing pictures on my RM3di, but when it comes to reactive shooting/and moving subjects with the 645df...I seriously considered the 645z when it came out, and most times just end up reaching for the Canon.
Don't get me wrong the quality is amazing, but the quality coming from most modern cameras is amazing. That's just not enough on set, this camera breaks the rhythm. If Phase puts out something by the end of the year I'll stick with them and invest in more glass. Otherwise, time to start dating.
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For the record both the LDS (The "Mormons") and Google have and are currently using our DTDCH systems. They also both use a few other systems including in-house built solutions.
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If you really want a camera that can focus, you should probably get a Hassy. Phase will even do you a mount change, if you pay.
Phase's best feature may be the back/ C1 software integration and seamless tethering, Hassy's attraction is the more modern body with TrueFocus.
You need to decide which feature you need most; it's not an accident that Phase has such success with repro and landscape.
Edmund
True Focus is a crutch for the one AF point that most MF cameras get. Having it is better than guessing during focus/recompose, but use cases mostly narrow down to wider lenses at large apertures, I doubt you'd spot the difference with a 100mm lens.
Having held and shot with a Phase, Hassy, Leica and Pentax, I'd label both Phase and Hassy as the slow and methodical camera systems. Leica's AF isn't the fastest, but is amazingly accurate and the operation feels smooth enough to make it as "sporty" as the 645Z.
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Nice backs from Phase, nice bodies from Hassy - that has been the situation for 10 years, I don't see it changing.
Things change. Sometimes overnight (from the users perspective).
A day before the IQ series was launched you could have said "Phase has backs with great image quality and tethering but crappy user interface".
Then the IQ was launched and it was and still is the best user interface for image review of any professional camera.
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Things change. Sometimes overnight (from the users perspective).
A day before the IQ series was launched you could have said "Phase has backs with great image quality and tethering but crappy user interface".
Then the IQ was launched and it was and still is the best user interface for image review of any professional camera.
The Phamiya vs Hasselblad body debate reminds me of the current manned US space program vs. the russian manned launches: The US keeps explaining that its future manned system will magically appear by dint of free enterprise and that the new entirely American system will be much much better and much safer than the russian one. The russians just keep on launching Soyuz, without drama or funerals.
I'll believe in the new Phase body the day I see it. We've had a Mamiya AF, AFDII, AFDIII, Phase DF, Phase DF+, and it is reasonable to expect another small upgrade to the DF3. Also, if radically new tech were really to make an appearance it would be necessary to factor in some time for getting it right.
Edmund
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True Focus is a crutch for the one AF point that most MF cameras get. Having it is better than guessing during focus/recompose, but use cases mostly narrow down to wider lenses at large apertures, I doubt you'd spot the difference with a 100mm lens.
Having held and shot with a Phase, Hassy, Leica and Pentax, I'd label both Phase and Hassy as the slow and methodical camera systems. Leica's AF isn't the fastest, but is amazingly accurate and the operation feels smooth enough to make it as "sporty" as the 645Z.
Kolor,
With a 100mm, I would expect the True Focus to be most useful at 3/4 to full-body portrait body distance, when you need to recompose to fit the body in after focusing on the eye.
The newer SLRs and mirrorless can put a focus point anywhere, and in practice it really helps.
Edmund
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phase will have to run fast with new full frame iq370.....time is running ! best.
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Hi,
I really liked that comparison, albeit I wouldn't say it is accurate. Phase One cameras seem to be useful.
Hasselblad has a lot of bright ideas, like the HTC, but they may miss a hight resolution back. I don't know how good the new Canon 5Ds is but it will stir up the competition a bit. It is 50 MP in a DSLR body with some nice lenses like T&S 17 and 24.
There may be some hope that Sony gets it's act together to produce a 50 MP mirrorless with EFCS. So I see a lot of good 50 MP options coming.
It would just strike me. It may be that the Phase One camera system is good enough… Yeah, some systems are better, but Phase One may be good enough.
Actually, comparing to DSLRs may offer some perspective. Nikon had a lead in both resolution and DR for long, but Canon still dominates the market. It may be good enough in the areas where it is weak but it may excel in other areas that are important for buyers.
Best regards
Erik
The Phamiya vs Hasselblad body debate reminds me of the current manned US space program vs. the russian manned launches: The US keeps explaining that its future manned system will magically appear by dint of free enterprise and that the new entirely American system will be much much better and much safer than the russian one. The russians just keep on launching Soyuz, without drama or funerals.
Edmund
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Nikon had a lead in both resolution and DR for long, but Canon still dominates the market.
Best regards
Erik
Technically Nikon have had a lead at some times but never in sales volume or value. Canon have not been displaced from their dominance despite their technical shortcomings over some periods. The investment in lenses and ancillary dedicated gear acts as a drag on jumping from one of the major players to the other especially knowing that while one may be ahead technically today tomorrow is dawning ever sooner in the digital age and that will change.The problem they both have is the rapidly shrinking market they are selling into which may stifle or perhaps already has the research. Buying in from Sony which both could do will not solve their underlying problem of decreasing sales volume and value.
How does this play into the MF world? I suspect as a warning that the small market they are fighting over is unlikely to grow and shrinking sales cannot be revived just by offering more and more pixels as a differential. There are niches to be exploited, the interesting excursion into museum archiving which we have seen discussed is a good example where price is less sensitive, as it is in higher pro work where the capital cost of the camera is a minor part of the business. The one or two person band wedding is not going to keep MF going as it did when all those photographers aspired to and usually invested in Hasselblad or Rolleiflex they are largely SLR now and fighting for business with some of the cream, or spirants, looking to differentiate themselves with film offerings.
A new Phase body? Why bother? The base of users will swop their current back on the new body and the profit lies in the back. Now if they made a new body and closed the backs off or matched them as unswoppable, of course that's been tried, silly me.
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I believe that this is the new Phase One body... Of course I'm just kidding, Doug. A little yank on your digital chain. ;)
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I believe that this is the new Phase One body... Of course I'm just kidding, Doug. A little yank on your digital chain. ;)
ROTFLMAO.
Edmund
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I think the main reason to wait for the better phase one camera, is caused by the situation that the initial package deal(back and camera) was attractive to the buyers. And people have invested in the lenses after acquiring the basic equipment.
That could be a wrong decision to some people. The lesson is that don't rely on a package deal too much especially when the equipment is for living. There is no surprise. Not too much blame to phase one neither, since to make a great camera is not an easy job.
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Just to confirm the state of the market I alluded to Canon just posted Q1 2015 results:-
22% decline in interchangeable lens camera unit sales year to year
27% decline in compact unit sales year to year
30.7% decline in operational profit of the Imaging System group year to year
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As this thread has confirmed, Phase's best feature is the superb back/software integration and seamless tethering.
The main attraction of Hassy as I see it is that they do have a modern body with very good focus, and fast flash sync across the lens range.
Nice backs from Phase, nice bodies from Hassy - that has been the situation for 10 years, I don't see it changing.
It's up to you to decide which features you need most.
Edmund
If only there was SOME WAY to use a Phase back on a Hasselblad body!
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Just to confirm the state of the market I alluded to Canon just posted Q1 2015 results:
Hi Chris,
That of course only shows one company's published numbers in isolation, also tricky for a single year. I wonder how the total market fared (eliminating point and shoot cameras if we want a clearer view on the advanced and professional users)?
Cheers,
Bart
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Dear Bart
Indeed I simplified as these are DSLRs ;)
However this is a trend continuing from the last 12 months and Canon is the market leader, Nikon are similar.
Current SLRs: "They're like cell phones set to airplane mode with the WiFi turned off and no apps installed."
http://www.woot.com/plus/cameras-20th-century-cutting-edge?ref=cnt_wp_12
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I love that Hassy finally figured out they can sell their kits with the open body - the H5D-50c with the H5x body allows you to shoot with the Hassy 50c back, along with the IQ backs. At the end of the day, 50mp with higher ISO + 80mp CCD gives just about every option (shy of hour long exposure, faster than 1/800th shutter or sync).
Hi, my name is Joe and I have GAS.
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Yes Sir,
And I guess Phase One is happy to sell backs for the H5x.
Best regards
Erik
I love that Hassy finally figured out they can sell their kits with the open body - the H5D-50c with the H5x body allows you to shoot with the Hassy 50c back, along with the IQ backs. At the end of the day, 50mp with higher ISO + 80mp CCD gives just about every option (shy of hour long exposure, faster than 1/800th shutter or sync).
Hi, my name is Joe and I have GAS.
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True Focus is a crutch for the one AF point that most MF cameras get. Having it is better than guessing during focus/recompose, but use cases mostly narrow down to wider lenses at large apertures, I doubt you'd spot the difference with a 100mm lens.
I'd be interested to hear about your experiences with True Focus, how long have you been using it? Which lenses are you using it with?
Thanks in advance
Nick-T
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;D so we will never see a new phase one body just a cmos fullframe iq370.best.
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Hassy have gone open again? That is GREAT NEWS! However a question: Can a Hassy user mount an old Hassy back on that H5x? In other words can a Hassy back user upgrade his body without buying a new back?
Edmund
I love that Hassy finally figured out they can sell their kits with the open body - the H5D-50c with the H5x body allows you to shoot with the Hassy 50c back, along with the IQ backs. At the end of the day, 50mp with higher ISO + 80mp CCD gives just about every option (shy of hour long exposure, faster than 1/800th shutter or sync).
Hi, my name is Joe and I have GAS.
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Edmund, You teasing? ;)
You know very well that since the H3DII the backs and bodies were matched and married by software. Now, having freed the D lenses, also a software limitation, I suppose they could free the backs by an new version, but wouldn't that be rather admitting the matching was not strictly necessary in the first place?
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Hassy have gone open again? That is GREAT NEWS! However a question: Can a Hassy user mount an old Hassy back on that H5x? In other words can a Hassy back user upgrade his body without buying a new back?
Edmund
H5X is an "open" camera since one can choose the back that he wants to use with the camera... IMO, it would be a good idea for Hasselblad, if they would offer the backs of their H5 system with the H5X body as an alternative choice than the dedicated one and it would be great if they would find a way for users of the H3/3II&4 integrated cameras to use their backs with the H5X...
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Edmund, You teasing? ;)
You know very well that since the H3DII the backs and bodies were matched and married by software. Now, having freed the D lenses, also a software limitation, I suppose they could free the backs by an new version, but wouldn't that be rather admitting the matching was not strictly necessary in the first place?
There has been very little information on the topic of running different generation H backs on different body generations. Phase has generously allowed people to switch to a new gen body, eg. AFDII to DF+ although the switch is a little like upgrading from a 1965 VW Beetle to a 1968 VW Beetle; In Hassy's case switching from an H3 to an H5 might be really useful, but they've locked it down ... while allowing Phase back owners to buy into the latest H bodies. In a way, unless you need T/S, an old P25 for H is far more upgradeable and valuable than an H3D back: Not only can you use C1, but you also get to use a brand new body with good focus and fast lenses center-shutter lenses; at the price I guess (not sure) of two batteries and two chargers.
Or maybe, as usual I don't know what I'm talking about - feel free to educate me :)
Edmund
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I think there is a subject divergence again... What Hasselblad has done in the past with their complete systems, is completely irrelevant to what the market requires from a new P1 body... Where Hasselblad is relevant, is only as far as competition is concerned since one that is after a P1 back, he may choose to use it on a different (new) body (like H5X for instance as some do)... So, the question is if a new camera from Phamiya, that wouldn't be up to H5X (superior) level of performance and functioning, would be worthwhile or not... or, if the cost and development involved to make a camera that equals (or surpasses) H5X quality, would make the numbers required as to be worthwhile...
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Not that it is necessarily relevant, in fact it is certainly off-topic, but Sony seems close to releasing (http://www.eoshd.com/2015/04/sony-a7r-ii-looks-to-feature-9k-sensor-56mp/) a 56MP SLR, presumably with their signature in-body image stabilisation, and decent DR. Although I do know that MP does not translate directly to a measure of quality, there is some sort of correlation, as we all do admit.
It looks like Zeiss has a new batch of AF lenses that can deliver the necessary resolution - I'm quite astonished how good the Batis flickr images (https://www.flickr.com/photos/carlzeisslenses/17309597112/in/album-72157651844166820/) look at screen resolution. It's almost as if it were worthwhile to get that system just to display on *screen*. Strange. Maybe our friend Bernard is right to be so enthusiastic about his Otus, and the rest of us are now going to be able to get the same quality AND autofocus.
Edmund
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There seems to be a step change in availability of high quality lenses, no doubt stimulated by the high count backs/cameras appearing or predited. I am shooting the new Zeiss ZM Distagon 35mm f1.4 and that is astonishing, on B/W film all my 35mm shots look like they are on 120 (depth of field excepted ;) )
Absolutely unconnected with a new Phase One body so I apologise profusely.
But, to return to an earlier point the Phase One backs in the P25/30 + range do indeed sell for the same price in the Uk, give or take, as a H3DII39 complete (sometimes with an 80mm as well).
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There seems to be a step change in availability of high quality lenses, no doubt stimulated by the high count backs/cameras appearing or predited. I am shooting the new Zeiss ZM Distagon 35mm f1.4 and that is astonishing, on B/W film all my 35mm shots look like they are on 120 (depth of field excepted ;) )
Absolutely unconnected with a new Phase One body so I apologise profusely.
But, to return to an earlier point the Phase One backs in the P25/30 + range do indeed sell for the same price in the Uk, give or take, as a H3DII39 complete (sometimes with an 80mm as well).
Maybe the current MF lenses are about as end-of-life as the Phase bodies, now that the megapixel race is restarting.
In 35mm Sony is ramping up the effective (stabilsed) MPs while upgrading their lenses like crazy, providing an incentive for people to dump C and N.
Fortunately we have the Leica S lenses for MF shooters :)
D'you think they are the equivalent to the Zeiss?
Edmund
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i think that a phase will have a very small portion of market in the next future....unless they will change their marketing strategy.
best.
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i think that a phase will have a very small portion of market in the next future....unless they will change their marketing strategy.
best.
Yes, I think Phase got complacent, they thought their crown was going to last and the MP race in 35mm was going to slow because Canon and Nikon didn't want to jeopardize their lens range. It was true, Canon resisted the push to more MP.
But Nikon became a Sony customer, and provided them with funding to get their Exmor fullframe range running.
Nikon got a lot of customers.
Then Sony turned round and started revving the camera sensors like cellphone modules. It's all-win for them, either they sell sensors, or they sell their own cameras.
Now Phase, Hassy and Pentax are stuck with seeing their lenses obsoleted faster than they can renew them, and Nikon and Canon are feeling unhappy.
Interestingly, the Canon guys saw it all coming, they told me years ago that they were not really frightened of Nikon but that Sony scared them. It would seem there are quite a few non-idiots in this business. Maybe there is decent money still to be made in photography. At least in making cameras :)
Edmund
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Hi Ronald,
Those purported images with the 7RII may be just fakes and bad fakes at that. Check the enclosed sample for actual pixels.
On the other hand, Diglloyd published the MTF data for both"Batis" lenses and I would say they are quite impressive. The Batis 85/1.8 at full aperture may actually outperform the Otus at full aperture according to the MTF data, but the MTF doesn't say a terrible lot about out of focus rendition. At optimum aperture (f/4) the Otus seems to be almost incredible with the Batis a bit behind. Seriously interested in those lenses, but I am waiting for a body to put it on.
Best regards
Erik
Not that it is necessarily relevant, in fact it is certainly off-topic, but Sony seems close to releasing (http://www.eoshd.com/2015/04/sony-a7r-ii-looks-to-feature-9k-sensor-56mp/) a 56MP SLR, presumably with their signature in-body image stabilisation, and decent DR. Although I do know that MP does not translate directly to a measure of quality, there is some sort of correlation, as we all do admit.
It looks like Zeiss has a new batch of AF lenses that can deliver the necessary resolution - I'm quite astonished how good the Batis flickr images (https://www.flickr.com/photos/carlzeisslenses/17309597112/in/album-72157651844166820/) look at screen resolution. It's almost as if it were worthwhile to get that system just to display on *screen*. Strange. Maybe our friend Bernard is right to be so enthusiastic about his Otus, and the rest of us are now going to be able to get the same quality AND autofocus.
Edmund
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Maybe our friend Bernard is right to be so enthusiastic about his Otus, and the rest of us are now going to be able to get the same quality AND autofocus.
How can U even imagine that I, Bernard the First with a big F, may not have been right all along? ???
But if something as good and more compact can be head, I am all for it. In the mean time I'll continue to enjoy both the Otii. Here the 85mm f1.4 on the D810 at f1.4. My success ratio of perfectly focused images is now a bit higher with the MF Otus than it is with the AF Nikkor 85mm f1.4 AF-S.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8732/17129004768_8bb62ac515_o.jpg)
And yes, I am sure that Phaseone is working on a new body that is bound to be excellent and I will definitely consider it if the price is sensible.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi Ronald,
Those purported images with the 7RII may be just fakes and bad fakes at that. Check the enclosed sample for actual pixels.
On the other hand, Diglloyd published the MTF data for both"Batis" lenses and I would say they are quite impressive. The Batis 85/1.8 at full aperture may actually outperform the Otus at full aperture according to the MTF data, but the MTF doesn't say a terrible lot about out of focus rendition. At optimum aperture (f/4) the Otus seems to be almost incredible with the Batis a bit behind. Seriously interested in those lenses, but I am waiting for a body to put it on.
Best regards
Erik
Erik,
I don't have an opinion about the veracity of those images. Maybe someone else?
As regards Otus etc, I need AF, but I really like Bernard's images.
I wonder if Sony has a servo-zoom with the same quality coming as well ...
Edmund
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I don't have an opinion
What? Really?
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And yes, I am sure that Phaseone is working on a new body that is bound to be excellent and I will definitely consider it if the price is sensible.
Cheers,
Bernard
Amen :)
I think with those facts established we can now safely close the thread.
Edmund
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Yes, I think Phase got complacent, they thought their crown was going to last and the MP race in 35mm was going to slow because Canon and Nikon didn't want to jeopardize their lens range. It was true, Canon resisted the push to more MP.
But Nikon became a Sony customer, and provided them with funding to get their Exmor fullframe range running.
Nikon got a lot of customers.
Then Sony turned round and started revving the camera sensors like cellphone modules. It's all-win for them, either they sell sensors, or they sell their own cameras.
Now Phase, Hassy and Pentax are stuck with seeing their lenses obsoleted faster than they can renew them, and Nikon and Canon are feeling unhappy.
Interestingly, the Canon guys saw it all coming, they told me years ago that they were not really frightened of Nikon but that Sony scared them. It would seem there are quite a few non-idiots in this business. Maybe there is decent money still to be made in photography. At least in making cameras :)
Edmund
Love your last take, about the non idiots. In the other hand, I am not sure Phase got complacent, their dealers seem to believe that there is no competency whatsoever for "team phase one" but I don't believe they are complacent, I believe they don't have an option (besides talking). Phase One develop the sensor plus technology with Dalsa, that a mighty effort. But the writing was in the wall (CMOS). DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras are coming with multi shoot, the last bastion of MF cameras.
It will be a petty if MF vendors are not able to survive, but, the Earth is used to losses and extinctions, we wont be here without the extinction of the dinosaurs.
Best regards
-
If only photographers like Annie Leibovitz were as enlightened and knowledgeable as you gentlemen, then they'd immediately throw out those useless medium format cameras and run out to buy whatever it is you measurebators are praising this week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRwuD68NHoI
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Hi Ronald,
Those purported images with the 7RII may be just fakes and bad fakes at that. Check the enclosed sample for actual pixels.
On the other hand, Diglloyd published the MTF data for both"Batis" lenses and I would say they are quite impressive. The Batis 85/1.8 at full aperture may actually outperform the Otus at full aperture according to the MTF data, but the MTF doesn't say a terrible lot about out of focus rendition. At optimum aperture (f/4) the Otus seems to be almost incredible with the Batis a bit behind. Seriously interested in those lenses, but I am waiting for a body to put it on.
Best regards
Erik
Erik,
What do you mean by fake? That screenshot you showed is of an image from the Carl Zeiss Flickr page, and that"s as official as they come.
Anyway, if THAT is the state-of-the-art in 35mm, I actually feel kinda sorry. There is nothing amazing or astonishing about that image, be it resolution, rendering or tonality.
Please take a look at the 100% screengrab from my "Ancient" medium format back with an "End of life" lens (As the great Mr. PhD has put it) did yesterday. And please don"t blame AF for the Zeiss sample, my camera only has one AF point and it nails focus almost every single time I want it to.
You folk can measurebate all you want with your MTF charts, but I still laugh at my ass off at every single "MF killer" sample I see. A new Phase body will only widen the gap and I can live without it for quite some time.
Cheers.
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Yes, I think Phase got complacent, they thought their crown was going to last and the MP race in 35mm was going to slow because Canon and Nikon didn't want to jeopardize their lens range. It was true, Canon resisted the push to more MP.
But Nikon became a Sony customer, and provided them with funding to get their Exmor fullframe range running.
Nikon got a lot of customers.
Then Sony turned round and started revving the camera sensors like cellphone modules. It's all-win for them, either they sell sensors, or they sell their own cameras.
Now Phase, Hassy and Pentax are stuck with seeing their lenses obsoleted faster than they can renew them, and Nikon and Canon are feeling unhappy.
Interestingly, the Canon guys saw it all coming, they told me years ago that they were not really frightened of Nikon but that Sony scared them. It would seem there are quite a few non-idiots in this business. Maybe there is decent money still to be made in photography. At least in making cameras :)
Edmund
This is the biggest bunch of BS I have ever read from you and that's saying a lot.
Go look at the sample I posted above, compare that to your beloved Zeiss sample and give me one reason to consider your PoV of MF being deprecated by whatever flavor of the month you're jumping up and down about.
You've been jumping from point to point with little coherence, raising strawman arguments one after the other with no clear point to make. Most of your "facts" are pulled out of thin air or from places where the sun don't shine and when people who have actual experience with the gear you're trying to mock chime in, you accuse them of being on the payroll of Phase.
Seriously Edmund, go out and smell the fresh air some time. You really need it.
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If only photographers like Annie Leibovitz were as enlightened and knowledgeable as you gentlemen, then they'd immediately throw out those useless medium format cameras and run out to buy whatever it is you measurebators are praising this week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRwuD68NHoI
Interesting, Hasselblad body with name plate missing (see .05 secs in) and IQ back.
The dream team? ;)
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Hi Synn,
Have you actually checked that image at actual pixels? It has all signs of bad processing. That site is not an official Zeiss site, BTW.
This is said to be the official Zeiss site on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/groups/carlzeisslenses
While the other page is: https://www.flickr.com/photos/carlzeisslenses/
Just to make a few small points. Zeiss likes MTF data, they even publish them. Just because you ignore measured data it doesn't mean it is not useful. Lens designers use them all the time. Leica also loves MTF data, they also publish them.
The attached images are close up shots with my Sony Alpha 99 (which has 24 MP) using a 25 year old Minolta Macro 100/2.8 at f/11 and the other one is with the Planar 120/4 at f/11 on the P45+. Focus was on the yellow pistills. Same image just different actual pixel crops.
What I have seen on the Carl Zeiss lenses for the Hasselblad is that they are very sharp at the center. Edges/Corners are not so good on the shorter lenses, but still hold up to close scrutiny at A2-size , that I normally print.
Best regards
Erik
Erik,
What do you mean by fake? That screenshot you showed is of an image from the Carl Zeiss Flickr page, and that"s as official as they come.
Anyway, if THAT is the state-of-the-art in 35mm, I actually feel kinda sorry. There is nothing amazing or astonishing about that image, be it resolution, rendering or tonality.
Please take a look at the 100% screengrab from my "Ancient" medium format back with an "End of life" lens (As the great Mr. PhD has put it) did yesterday. And please don"t blame AF for the Zeiss sample, my camera only has one AF point and it nails focus almost every single time I want it to.
You folk can measurebate all you want with your MTF charts, but I still laugh at my ass off at every single "MF killer" sample I see. A new Phase body will only widen the gap and I can live without it for quite some time.
Cheers.
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The website for the "unofficial" Zeiss Flickr page is http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_de/home.html
That seems pretty much like Zeiss.
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Erik
To paraphrase George Bernard Shaw,
"Wrestle a pig, you get covered in mud, and the pig likes that".
I do agree our "professional" friend has shown us a very sharp image with nice skin tone there - although my feeling is that the model probably got a bad case of sunburn - the zone of sharpness is astonishingly deep. On your yellow/purple image the Zeiss looks like it has more contrast - maybe the light changed?
Edmund
Hi Synn,
Have you actually checked that image at actual pixels? It has all signs of bad processing. That site is not an official Zeiss site, BTW.
This is said to be the official Zeiss site on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/groups/carlzeisslenses
While the other page is: https://www.flickr.com/photos/carlzeisslenses/
Just to make a few small points. Zeiss likes MTF data, they even publish them. Just because you ignore measured data it doesn't mean it is not useful. Lens designers use them all the time. Leica also loves MTF data, they also publish them.
The attached images are close up shots with my Sony Alpha 99 (which has 24 MP) using a 25 year old Minolta Macro 100/2.8 at f/11 and the other one is with the Planar 120/4 at f/11 on the P45+. Focus was on the yellow pistills. Same image just different actual pixel crops.
What I have seen on the Carl Zeiss lenses for the Hasselblad is that they are very sharp at the center. Edges/Corners are not so good on the shorter lenses, but still hold up to close scrutiny at A2-size , that I normally print.
Best regards
Erik
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"Wrestle a pig, you get covered in mud, and the pig likes that".
Ah, that explains why you start these threads, looking for confrontations.
Thanks for the clarification.
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Hi Synn,
Have you actually checked that image at actual pixels? It has all signs of bad processing. That site is not an official Zeiss site, BTW.
This is said to be the official Zeiss site on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/groups/carlzeisslenses
While the other page is: https://www.flickr.com/photos/carlzeisslenses/
Just to make a few small points. Zeiss likes MTF data, they even publish them. Just because you ignore measured data it doesn't mean it is not useful. Lens designers use them all the time. Leica also loves MTF data, they also publish them.
The attached images are close up shots with my Sony Alpha 99 (which has 24 MP) using a 25 year old Minolta Macro 100/2.8 at f/11 and the other one is with the Planar 120/4 at f/11 on the P45+. Focus was on the yellow pistills. Same image just different actual pixel crops.
What I have seen on the Carl Zeiss lenses for the Hasselblad is that they are very sharp at the center. Edges/Corners are not so good on the shorter lenses, but still hold up to close scrutiny at A2-size , that I normally print.
Best regards
Erik
Erik,
Thanks for the screenshots. My point was not to ignore MTF charts, but that the results I have with me quite comfortably show TO ME that all these flavors of the month are still not close to delivering "That look" that I get with every frame that I make with the MF gear. Those Batis samples are just another example.
Doesn't mean that MF is the be all and end all. Just that for the type of work that I do, which does focus on details and tonality, there's nothing in 35mm that appeals to me as a viable alternative to what I use.
p.s. Since I have seen enough samples from you, I can safely say, the results you get are not indicative of what MF gear can achieve. I am not sure if it is human error, sample variation, legacy gear (Lenses), post processing choices or a combination of all of the above. But if it looks good to YOU on print, who cares, eh?
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Hi Edmund,
It was late evening so light and shadows change fast. Still, the main factor is in all probability my processing. In test images I usually include a ColorChecker and that lets me equilize processing, but this were no test images just some samples from an outdoor shoot.
There are many sliders in a moder raw converter...
Best regards
Erik
Erik
On your yellow/purple image the Zeiss looks like it has more contrast - maybe the light changed?
Edmund
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still ...
the big problem for phase is when a sony ar9 is out in autmn with a 50 mpx cmos and a capture one software version for sony...what will happen ? new marketing strategy ?
new prices...
best.
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and forgot nobody buys today used phase back ccd like before...price really dropped.this is already the picture.best.
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and forgot nobody buys today used phase back ccd like before...price really dropped.this is already the picture.best.
For the last five years we've sold more new backs than the year before, more upgrades than the year before, and more pre-owned/refurbished backs than the year before.
I suspect the strong trade-in value that P1 offers for upgrades, and the number of good deals we've had on refurbished backs (that carry warranty and dealer support) has more impact on interest in privately-sold-CCD-backs than does underlying interest therein. In my experience most people like to buy $10k+ cameras from a place they can test it before hand, and where there is warranty/support after the sale; it's not like buying a $500 commodity lens for a Canon.
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it's not like buying a $500 commodity lens for a Canon.
... or Nikon, or Sony, or Pentax, or Minolta ... or whatever
What is wrong with a US $ 500,00 lens from Canon ?
;D
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... or Nikon, or Sony, or Pentax, or Minolta ... or whatever
What is wrong with a US $ 500,00 lens from Canon ?
A lens like the 50/1.4 offers pretty good performance and look for a low price.
My point was only that, in my experience, most people are more comfortable buying a lens like that on eBay/privately than are comfortable buying a $20k digital back from eBay/privately.
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the big problem for phase is when a sony ar9 is out in autmn with a 50 mpx cmos and a capture one software version for sony...what will happen ?
This is said Literally. Every. New. Camera. (real and imaginary new cameras)
Yet Team Phase One sales keep going up.
It's not all about megapixels or bits this or feature that. Digital backs and the bodies/platforms surrounding them provide entirely different types of cameras to anything in the dSLR or mirrorless world. An Arca Swiss RM3Di with even a 22mp CCD digital back, or a Phase One DF+ with a 1/1600th of a second flash sync and Schneider lenses, or a Mamiya RZ with a back from ten years ago with a waist level optical view finder... all of these offer many advantages over a Sony AR12 with a 200mp cmos sensor.
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Hi,
A few frequent posters here switched from at least in part from high MP IQ 260 (or so) to Sony A7r with whacky bayonet, shutter vibration and all. So the A7r clearly has advantages over even quite recent CCD based MFDs.
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=90358.msg776770#msg776770
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=99472.0
Regarding AR12 it is highly improbable because Alpha numbering goes to nine. It will take some time to get to 200 MP on 24x36, but it has been demonstrated that something like that is needed to match the Otuses.
Also, there is no mirror in the Arca Swiss RM3Di. Mirror is sort of not necessary with live view. Even Phase has that technology now.
Best regards
Erik
Digital backs and the bodies/platforms surrounding them provide entirely different types of cameras to anything in the dSLR or mirrorless world. An Arca Swiss RM3Di with even a 22mp CCD digital back, or a Phase One DF+ with a 1/1600th of a second flash sync and Schneider lenses, or a Mamiya RZ with a back from ten years ago with a waist level optical view finder... all of these offer many advantages over a Sony AR12 with a 200mp cmos sensor.
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For the last five years we've sold more new backs than the year before, more upgrades than the year before, and more pre-owned/refurbished backs than the year before.
I suspect the strong trade-in value that P1 offers for upgrades, and the number of good deals we've had on refurbished backs (that carry warranty and dealer support) has more impact on interest in privately-sold-CCD-backs than does underlying interest therein. In my experience most people like to buy $10k+ cameras from a place they can test it before hand, and where there is warranty/support after the sale; it's not like buying a $500 commodity lens for a Canon.
Doug,
Might it not be that your stellar and deserved reputation as an honest, supportive and expert dealer, willing to go the extra mile to make sure the solution works for the customer, is causing people to come to your door, rather than other dealers, and growing your business? In particular, when it comes to pre-owned sales where ebay and forums would otherwise easily win out on price alone over any dealer? And that there is a growing adoption of institutional MF as curators accept the necessity of digital publication of their collections?
I am sure our meretricious friend Synn will feel free, as usual, to point out the obvious errors in all my assumptions ...
Edmund
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Hi,
Most coins have two sides. Second hand prices dropping is obviously good for budget minded new buyers entering the market. It has also been my personal experience, I set a price tag for an MFDB at 10000$US and bought my P45+ for 9900$US from a buyer in Poland.
Interestingly, I was offered around 18000$US deal in rebate on an IQ-260 as soon I bought it.
The bad side of the coin is that selling gear seems harder now. Also, dealers give hefty rebates on upgrades but not on crossgrades. So you can update at reasonable cost from an IQ-160 to an IQ-260, but not from the IQ-260 to the IQ-250. A friend of mine here on LuLa and GetDPI can sing a symphony about it.
I have published a lot of my P45+ images, and I am aware of at least two people who bought into the Hasselblad system after seeing them. One of those users is Phase One owner, who bought the Hasselblad stuff in addition to her Phase One stuff. The other buyer didn't buy into MFD yet but bought a fine Hasselblad kit to be used with film.
I would also think that there is a great market for an affordable back, as there are a lot of folks sitting on old analogue MF-stuff.
Regarding the original issue, Phase One dealers have been talking a lot about a new Phase One camera that has not yet appeared. Phase One has made a lot of upgrades to old Mamiya 645 based camera, and such upgrades probably still can be done. Building a new MF DSLR may make little sense, as it is a major effort that would be done by Mamiya. Original Phase One is a more of an electronics company. With live view, it is logical to start looking into mirrorless.
Actually a significant part of Phase One's market is mirrorless, all technical cameras. Those cameras now have a decent what you see is what you get view finder in the form of live view backs. Combine an IQ-250 with an Alpa FPS and you have a mirrorless MFD. The FPS even controls aperture on Canon lenses (and so does the older Hartblei HCam).
Personally I am living in a Hasselblad country, that camera system was invented here and it is still produced here, sort of.
Best regards
Erik
Doug,
Might it not be that your stellar and deserved reputation as an honest, supportive and expert dealer, willing to go the extra mile to make sure the solution works for the customer, is causing people to come to your door, rather than other dealers, and growing your business? In particular, when it comes to pre-owned sales where ebay and forums would otherwise easily win out on price alone over any dealer? And that there is a growing adoption of institutional MF as curators accept the necessity of digital publication of their collections?
I am sure our meretricious friend Synn will feel free, as usual, to point out the obvious errors in all my assumptions ...
Edmund
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And that there is a growing adoption of institutional MF as curators accept the necessity of digital publication of their collections?
You ARE aware that you're the same person who typed this a few pages ago in this very thread, right?
One thing is certain: For institutional static use, Sony 35mm multishot is going to be fighting with Phase MF monoshot at a huge price differential.
Like Apple with Samsung, Phase is in the very uncomfortable situation of competing with its main component supplier.
Edmund
Small underfunded institutions and churches here in Europe will probably go with whatever is cheap to source locally, and Sony Pentax and Canon have a sales agent in every smallish town. I don't see Father Christmas appearing and donating a Phase system or a Cruse scanner to many of these places who struggle with their roof repairs.
Edmund
You said that WITH CERTAINITY at that point. ::)
If you're not actively trolling with whatever strawman argument that comes to your mind at any given time, I suggest you get help for this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder).
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we will see how phase will react when sony ar 9 and canon 50mpx will be in the market in autumn both using capture one , best software...
welcome to the land of dracula.....best.
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we will see how phase will react when sony ar 9 and canon 50mpx will be in the market in autumn both using capture one , best software...
welcome to the land of dracula.....best.
About the same as they did when the D3x, the D800 and the A7r hit the market.
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not exactly,
in autumn will the same cmos sony sensor 50 mpx in a sony body and a canon body using a phase one software :capture one!
a totally new reality !
good luck to the sale team...
best.
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You are aware of the fact that all the cameras I mentioned before work with Capture One Pro, right?
C1P has supported all leading 35mm cameras for as long as I can remember.
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You ARE aware that you're the same person who typed this a few pages ago in this very thread, right?
You said that WITH CERTAINITY at that point. ::)
If you're not actively trolling with whatever strawman argument that comes to your mind at any given time, I suggest you get help for this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder).
i can't remember having read any substantial contribution from you on this forum.
if you are so convinced that the tools you are using are so much better than anything else, why do you have to attack and insult others constantly, instead of using your wonderful gear and producing some outstanding work. just be a bit more relaxed my friend!
and, before you start attacking me for my mediocre english, just keep in mind that not everybody is a native english speaker.
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not exactly,
in autumn will the same cmos sony sensor 50 mpx in a sony body and a canon body using a phase one software :capture one!
a totally new reality !
good luck to the sale team...
best.
One correction, Canon's 50MP is their own design, not a Sony chip/Exmour processor.
Paul
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i can't remember having read any substantial contribution from you on this forum.
if you are so convinced that the tools you are using are so much better than anything else, why do you have to attack and insult others constantly, instead of using your wonderful gear and producing some outstanding work. just be a bit more relaxed my friend!
and, before you start attacking me for my mediocre english, just keep in mind that not everybody is a native english speaker.
I am not a native english speaker either and as far as I can remember, I have posted more photographs on this forum than the person I was talking to. Examples of my work can be seen from my signature.
I also own and regularly use Medium Format gear, unlike the thread starter.
Please let me know what more I need to do to have a valid opinion here.
Lastly, I have no illusions that the gear I use IS THE BEST!! (Or whatever). I use Medium format AND 35mm gear and choose between them depending on the situation. But when people who have little to no experience in MF and have no intention of buying MF gear talk BS about it, it is only natural that people with better experience with that gear speak up.
Thanks!
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sorry ....just saying another 50 mpx sensor into the race....best
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if you are so convinced that the tools you are using are so much better than anything else, why do you have to attack and insult others constantly, instead of using your wonderful gear and producing some outstanding work. just be a bit more relaxed my friend!
If you go back to page 1, Ed baited two dealers with a rumor he claimed they spread, called everyone here billionaires, called two camera makers inferior and hopeless, and then baited again all in the first post.
Afterwards he derails the topic so hard that every page reads like it belongs in a different thread. synn is just being cynical and is exposing Ed's piggy mud pit that everyone ended up getting dragged in to.
The only way to win this game is to not play, but I'm afraid that I'm a sucker already.
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Hi,
I would just add that the Sony sensor is vaguely rumoured, but not yet seen.
Best regards
Erik
One correction, Canon's 50MP is their own design, not a Sony chip/Exmour processor.
Paul
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If you go back to page 1, Ed baited two dealers with a rumor he claimed they spread, called everyone here billionaires, called two camera makers inferior and hopeless, and then baited again all in the first post.
Afterwards he derails the topic so hard that every page reads like it belongs in a different thread. synn is just being cynical and is exposing Ed's piggy mud pit that everyone ended up getting dragged in to.
The only way to win this game is to not play, but I'm afraid that I'm a sucker already.
The thread was clearly started with a humorous and slightly mischievous tinge. Steve Hendrix, much to his credit, responded in kind. Doug Petersen similarly although Doug, true to form, couldn't resist the opportunity to be - how best to phrase it ? - 'un peu économique avec les actualités '
Piggy mud pit ? Well, at least, in the most part, it's one laced with a healthy dose of camaraderie and affectionate 'taquinerie' - passes the time, while we all wait for the new PhaseOne body ..
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Piggy mud pit ? Well, at least, in the most part, it's one laced with a healthy dose of camaraderie and affectionate 'taquinerie' - passes the time, while we all wait for the new PhaseOne body ..
An enjoyable warm mudbath, no? Helps us wait for the 56MP full format 35mm Sony sensor - let's have realistic goals in life :)
Edmund
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still waiting a clear answer about the future of phase one....best.
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The thread was clearly started with a humorous and slightly mischievous tinge.
Dangerous thing to do on the internet. I know that Ed is trying to be funny, but it's lead to 7 pages of nothing. No one is ever going to read the contents of this thread except the dozen people who posted.
Steve Hendrix, much to his credit, responded in kind. Doug Petersen similarly although Doug, true to form, couldn't resist the opportunity to be - how best to phrase it ? - 'un peu économique avec les actualités '
Not going to answer for them, but I can imagine that their position requires them to be diplomatic, a company representative is expected to smile and answer kindly, lest they paint their company in a bad light.
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Of course, nothing has been learned from this thread, but at the very least, we can all take mud baths, which is supposed to be very nice for one's skin. :)
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No one is ever going to read the contents of this thread except the dozen people who posted.
Almost 7,000 views and counting says 'perhaps not'.
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Almost 7,000 views and counting says 'perhaps not'.
All the more reasons to point out FUD when one sees it.
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So long as a 645Z sells for less than $6k in Japan, revealing the true cost of parts and manufacturing to the rest of the world, there is market stress. That's the way it is, and that's how it's going to be.
Time to shut this thread down, since it's degenerated into name-calling. There will be another one along in a few minutes anyway.
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So long as a 645Z sells for less than $6k in Japan, revealing the true cost of parts and manufacturing to the rest of the world, there is market stress. That's the way it is, and that's how it's going to be.
One cannot fail to notice that Doug and Steve make very good money by selling the same CMOS sensor tech and a much older body at 3x the price: They state they have a growing circle of customers. As photographers we all know that the Pentax hardware is equivalent to that of the IQ250C, so these customers must attribute a monetary value to Doug and Steve's support and expertise[Note 0, 1] and the seamless tethering workflow, impeccable color management, and superb renderings of the C1 software [Note 2], well above any perceived value of the hardware components.
I think this is the root cause of the recurring price discussion, no joke: There is a 3x at least price disparity, but some perceive the "invisible" value, and some don't. Doug and Steve say their customer base just budgets for it, which is true (their support is included in the hardware price), while some other forum participants say "Hey guys, I don't sit in a studio with my computer on a cart, I don't retouch Madonna, I don't do 10-dresses-an-hour catalog shoots or deadlines, I don't need your handholding, I want a camera *and* a car, not a camera *or* a car", the last of which is mostly guy shorthand for either "I am too broke to buy this" or for the self-evident psycho-econometric formula
SAF(IQ250C) = -25000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_acceptance_factor) [Note 3, 4]
However that is not the point of this discussion. What we are trying to understand is why Phase -the company, not Doug, Steve dealers- is not supplying a more modern body, at whatever price is the usual buy-in for the Phase system. Or maybe they have a new body but have chosen not to release it at Photokina for some strange business reason?
Edmund
[Note 0] I don't think Pentax dealers give out their cellphone numbers, or do much remote software support; I have a feeling Doug or his techs do both.
[Note 1]: Possibly quite a few other Phase dealers do not supply anywhere near the same degree of support or expertise as Doug and Steve. :)
[Note 2]: If C1 supports SLRs for $500, why is it worth $15K when it is employed with a Sony MF sensor?
[Note 3]: This gender-agnostic formula reads as "My spouse is going to kill me, and remodel the kitchen with furniture lovingly carved from my bones if I buy this ".
[Note 4]: Some economists offer a more rigorous interpretation involving cremation ashes and a cat litter tray.
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:)good analysis ++++
the main thing is to see what happen by end of november ... when sony and canon will be available to buy.
dracula will start to vampirize our beloved phase.......
best.
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[Note 0] I don't think Pentax dealers give out their cellphone numbers, or do much remote software support; I have a feeling Doug or his techs do both.
[Note 1]: Possibly quite a few other Phase dealers do not supply anywhere near the same degree of support or expertise as Doug and Steve. :)
[Note 2]: If C1 supports SLRs for $500, why is it worth $15K when it is employed with a Sony MF sensor?
[Note 3]: This gender-agnostic formula reads as "My spouse is going to kill me, and remodel the kitchen with furniture lovingly carved from my bones if I buy this ".
[Note 4]: Some economists offer a more rigorous interpretation involving cremation ashes and a cat litter tray.
We ALL have our phone numbers listed on our website; every single person in the company is accessible via their listed cell. I can't speak for Doug but I expect he'd be happy to do the same.
As for the SAF formula, I was happily thinking to myself, "Ah, something I don't personally have to worry about!"
Then I realized I'm married to my student loan debt...heh.
I'll have to save the formula for the future though :)
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We ALL have our phone numbers listed on our website; every single person in the company is accessible via their listed cell. I can't speak for Doug but I expect he'd be happy to do the same.
You can in fact speak for me... just look below my signature on every forum post :).
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Perfect! But the only person I really still want to speak for is the tax man. Oddly enough, he doesn't like when I say I owe nothing.
;D
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will be even more fun when hasselblad will introduce their version of the full frame cmos.... :)
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will be even more fun when hasselblad will introduce their version of the full frame cmos.... :)
Indeed, Winter is coming :)
Edmund
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hello,
annoucement coming next week from phase one...stay tuned ;D
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hello,
annoucement coming next week from phase one...stay tuned ;D
Let me guess...
They will announce a rebadged 5DSR with a wood handle at 10,000 US$ with a discount program? Ah no, wrong MF brand. ;)
cheers,
Bernard
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Let me guess...
They will announce a rebadged 5DSR with a wood handle at 10,000 US$ with a discount program? Ah no, wrong MF brand. ;)
cheers,
Bernard
I think from Phase One we can reasonably expect a new body with in-camera stabilisation: a softer shutter release button to minimize shake.
I'm going back to watching Game of Thrones, at least there you get some excitement every year.
Edmund
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I think from Phase One we can reasonably expect a new body with in-camera stabilisation: a softer shutter release button to minimize shake :)
I'm going back to watching Game of Thrones, at least there you get some excitement every year :)
Edmund
Stabilization would be great, but how would that be implemented? Don't all such solutions have the stabilization build around the sensor, i.e Sony, Olympus etc? If the stabilization is in the body. As Phase is using a removable back design, could that be even implemented? On a new back/CMOS maybe, but I am thinking about all the current users out there.
Paul
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Stabilization would be great, but how would that be implemented? Don't all such solutions have the stabilization build around the sensor, i.e Sony, Olympus etc? If the stabilization is in the body. As Phase is using a removable back design, could that be even implemented? On a new back/CMOS maybe, but I am thinking about all the current users out there.
Paul
Paul,
It's very simple: You suspend the whole camera on actuators. It's done all the time with video cameras.
But that comes later - first we will get the new Phamiya shutter trigger :)
Edmund
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so finally on monday
new camera
and new back
have a nice week end !
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so finally on monday
new camera
and new back
have a nice week end !
If you believe Ciccio, and you don't plan an upgrade, your old gear will lose $10K on Monday - dump it now ! :P
Edmund
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so finally on monday
new camera
and new back
have a nice week end !
What's the specs of the new back? The new body doesn't look interesting
#Banner removed upon request of Doug and David
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Chris and I are in Denmark and we will have a story on Tuesday so check the site then for all the information and photos and even videos.
Kevin Raber
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What's the specs of the new back? The new body doesn't look interesting
The WL Finder looks good. My ancient Contax 645 is spot metering with the WL Finder. Once again the advertising people are forgetful.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Hello,
i my opinion the Hasselblad H camera is the modern camera compared to the Phase one DF+:
- Pixel Display for text and no cryptic numbers
- changeable viewfinder
- Better and lighter battery system
But i have heard too, that pPhase one have helped hasselblad in the beginning to design the H System. With know how.. Conclusion: P1 has the know how and i hope they will do their best...!
Does anybody know some facts about the new camera?
Thank you.
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Latest message says:
IQ380, IQ360 and IQ350 will feature the same sensors as the IQ2 series, but incompatible with the DF+ body.
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Latest message says:
but incompatible with the DF+ body.
I thought Hasselblad were supposed to have learned from Phase not the other way around ?
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Looks nice. Great to have a waist level finder!
I wonder if the new backs will have rotating sensors, like the older Leaf backs did?
If the new IQ3 backs are the same sensors as in the IQ2 backs, that's a bit of a bummer but not unexpected. I'm guessing there will be new features to improve integration with the body and lens.
Fingers crossed it's a job well done for Phase and that the competition is waiting in the wings with an announcement of its own. Strong competition keeps everyone on their toes.
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Guess they don't really care about 5DSR >:( where is the full frame CMOS?
#Slides removed upon request of Doug and David
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Looking slick.
I'm looking forward to reading more about the specs on release!
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I'm confident that the backs will be first rate.
After they work on the rest of the system they should be as good as the Leaf/Sinar/Rollei was before they buried it because of "Not Invented Here" syndrome ;)
Edmund
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so finally is coming out .... :D
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Sorry but this is utter nonsense.
Pulling posts and/or graphics at the request of a dealer, whose sole aim is to be first to post the official stuff and drive traffic to their own site?
Ridiculous.
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photorumors have them all
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that is why they only react when the time is on our side, the photographers , when we are planning
TO BUY.....
only money count in this world even in a passionate forum of photography.
they are client of the forum as they advertise , freedom...
as you said ridiculous !
best.
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Waist level finder is nice. Will be a great tethering camera for the studio/advertising. Price will be premium I'm sure. But kudos to PhaseOne for hanging in there.
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that is why they only react when the time is on our side, the photographers , when we are planning
TO BUY.....
only money count in this world even in a passionate forum of photography.
they are client of the forum as they advertise , freedom...
as you said ridiculous !
best.
If Doug (Peterson, I presume) and David (Grover, I presume) requested the banner be removed, there are reasons. Neither the manufacturer nor the dealer wants information leaked in advance on a major new product (at least in this case), and there can be valid reasons for that, one of which is that they are preparing and this pushed things up in the timetable, also creates the potential for misinformation.
But from the user perspective, who doesn't like to provide breaking news or leaked news? I like to read about new products as much as anyone, and the sooner I can find out, the better!
However, my main point is that I see nothing wrong with a dealer or - especially - a manufacturer requesting leaked information be removed in advance of a launch. However, they cannot force anyone to do so. And removing it was the decision of the poster. So - I disagree with attaching blame to the manufacturer/dealer.
Steve Hendrix
CI
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Geesh. You'd think I strangled a puppy or something.
I politely asked for Void to take down some confidential material. He was of course free to decline, but chose to remove it. (Thanks Void!).
I'll see you all back here at the chosen hour. I'm sure Steve, David Grover, and Kevin will be around as well. Lots to talk about.
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Geesh. You'd think I strangled a puppy or something.
I politely asked for Void to take down some confidential material. He was of course free to decline, but chose to remove it. (Thanks Void!).
I'll see you all back here at the chosen hour. I'm sure Steve, David Grover, and Kevin will be around as well. Lots to talk about.
I assumed you'd offer a special upgrade price for a puppy ;D 8) looking forward to see how well the "new" 80 MP back does long exposure. Hopefully it will be a full frame CMOS instead of a tweaked Dalsa with LE (such like the previous IQ260)
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I assumed you'd offer a special upgrade price for a puppy ;D 8) looking forward to see how well the "new" 80 MP back does long exposure. Hopefully it will be a full frame CMOS instead of a tweaked Dalsa with LE (such like the previous IQ260)
Same thoughts here. Hope they did a better job than on the 260 if it's a CCD which I am betting it is.
Paul
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Same thoughts here. Hope they did a better job than on the 260 if it's a CCD which I am betting it is.
Paul
If it's still a CCD then it's not likely that I'm buying it - high chance that there is a physical limitation that the dynamic range will still be at Canon level.
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Sorry but this is utter nonsense.
Pulling posts and/or graphics at the request of a dealer, whose sole aim is to be first to post the official stuff and drive traffic to their own site?
Ridiculous.
I don't know that we have proff, but it will not be surprising. Phase One and the Luminous Landscape always had a very special relationship. It goes from friendships to professional relationship.
I will not be surprised if someone at Lula was under a non disclosure agreement thus the need to keep it quiet. Even if publishing information that was obtain in violation of a NDA is not illegal per se:who wants to deal with layers and convoluted Legal theories? Even more so if it will risk damaging a relationship that has been so productive in both directions.
Finally if there is no NDA and no legal risk, it will be a case of catering to a friend needs.
If it was an information that will put Photographers at risk the criteria will change.
If we already know, and the information will be released in few days: It worth the cost to Lula?
I don't think so.
Best regards.
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Sorry but this is utter nonsense.
Pulling posts and/or graphics at the request of a dealer, whose sole aim is to be first to post the official stuff and drive traffic to their own site?
Ridiculous.
I don't know that we have proff, but it will not be surprising. Phase One and the Luminous Landscape always had a very special relationship. It goes from friendships to professional relationship.
I will not be surprised if someone at Lula was under a non disclosure agreement since the need to keep it quiet. Even if not publishing information that was obtain in violation of a NDA is not illegal per se, but who wants to deal with layers and convoluted Legal theories? Even more so if it will risk damaging a relationship that has been so productive in both directions.
Finally if there is no NDA and no legal risk, it will be a case of catering to a friend needs.
If it was an information that will put Photographers at risk the criteria will change.
If we already know, and the information will be released in few days: It worth the cost to Lula?
I don't think so.
Best regards.
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Um, I think it was made pretty clear that the original poster took the photos down---not LuLa or Phase One.
Doug offered a puppy, and the original poster voluntarily took it down. He didn't need to, but it's hard to turn down a puppy.
;)
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I really hope there is a competent upgrade offer for DF+ owners and that the older backs would work on the new body. Also that the said offer would be available in Europe.
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Let's hope the functionality was worth the wait, because that extremely boxy design and sharp edges makes it look very dated in my opinion. It reminds me of the old "645 Super", which is not exactly a step in the right direction.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Mamiya_645_Super.jpg)
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Just a matter of record. The posts were removed by the original poster. Luminous-Landscape did not take them down, nor did we ask them to be removed. It is not a Luminous-Landscape policy to remove or change anything in regards to posts unless there is something offensive or damaging in nature.
Kevin Raber
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so funny is already out....
http://photorumors.com/2015/05/31/new-phase-one-xf-medium-format-camera-leaked-online/
best !
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No puppy for you.
:'(
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I guess there's a lesson here: the only thing worse than failing to announce a new camera is announcing one.
Either that, or there's something about the internet ....
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Geesh. You'd think I strangled a puppy or something.
I'll see you all back here at the chosen hour. I'm sure Steve, David Grover, and Kevin will be around as well. Lots to talk about.
Doug,
I am very happy to have started a thread at just the right time, by pure coincidence. Of course, I was so very wrong, neither you or Steve ever, really really, stated, hinted or even thought loudly that a new body was coming. I realize that now.
I am sure I speak for all the members of this forum when I say that we impatiently look forward to your forthcoming announcement of the latest and bestest Phase gear, and the compatibility notes concerning existing backs, pricing, and I guess details on competitive upgrade pricing for the owners of Canon and Nikon cameras as well as Apple iPhone users.
And photographic proof of life of that puppy, by means of the new Phase camera ;)
Edmund
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...I guess details on competitive upgrade pricing for the owners of ... Apple iPhone users.
I hope that includes the iPhone 4s...
Cheers,
Bernard
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It will be really interesting, especially would hope they do another World Tour ;) I wonder how quickly they'll have new bits in the POCP since I need to renew end of next month...
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I hope that includes the iPhone 4s...
Cheers,
Bernard
I know, Bernard, it is a horrible choice: Downgrade from a D810/Zeiss combo to Phase/Schneider or upgrade from an Iphone to Phase and have to hold that huge box to your ears to make calls.
Oh, wait, the new Phase body does not do voice calls?
Edmund
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At the very moment that Mr. Peterson was photographed choking his puppy in Denmark, and we open the case of who actually removed the Advance Photos/Specs of the new Phase camera, the U.S. Senate is voting on a bill limiting spying abilities of the NSA.
Coincidence? I certainly think not.
I wish Phase the very best with their new release.
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... or downgrade from an Iphone to Phase and have to hold that huge box ...
Edmund,
I'm sure you're mistaken, the new body is styled by Pininfarina - isn't it ?
M
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I think it might be here at last:
http://photorumors.com/2015/05/31/new-phase-one-xf-medium-format-camera-leaked-online/#more-72176
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Manoli,
The new XF doesn't seem to be evoking a lot of enthusiasm here, which I find surprising, especially if it were a Pininfarina design -
Total calm rather than preannouncement fever. Or maybe all the potential customers are on the phone with their dealers -negotiating upgrades -and have no time for the forum. I do think Phase One have worked very hard on this product for a very long time, and this is the place where we should be seeing a lot of enthusiasm.
Edmund
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But what is final now? Nothing!
I think the edge design is not everybodies darling...But first this is a tool and not an sculpture. And i hope the low res pictures on photorumor don't show the full beautiness of the new camera. We will see in the final product...
best
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Manoli,
The new XF doesn't seem to be evoking a lot of enthusiasm here, which I find surprising, especially if it were a Pininfarina design -
Total calm rather than preannouncement fever. Or maybe all the potential customers are on the phone with their dealers -negotiating upgrades -and have no time for the forum. I do think Phase One have worked very hard on this product for a very long time, and this is the place where we should be seeing a lot of enthusiasm.
Edmund
I think a LOT of actual (real) Phase One MFDB users would disagree with you here. Unless you have a Phase One MFDB or are truly about to invest in medium format digital----the new Phase One camera body won't have much appeal other than intellectual (and often less than intellectual) gyrations similar to those reading Car & Driver who will never come closer to a supercar than viewing on the glossy pages of their favored publication or on the internet.
But from what I've seen on this thread and elsewhere, your commentary is very predictable. ::)
That's just my .02 from an actual Phase One user---- no puppy needed.
;) ken
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So when is the official announcement?
I find the marketing strategy of Phase One sub-par. With such an important announcement coming up, they should ve made some more marketing noise before to leverage the potential hype. A countdown on the website for example.
Instead they rely on their distributors to post in user forums.
Hope the news are exciting and prices fair...
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I for one don't care what it looks like just so long as it works well and fits my needs (which it appears to).
Reminds me of my youth, I never went to bed with an ugly woman. Woke up with a couple though... ;D
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Unless you have a Phase One MFDB or are truly about to invest in medium format digital----the new Phase One camera body won't have much appeal other than intellectual ..
On the contrary, it's been such a long time coming that I suspect there's a lot more than just intellectual curiosity at play.
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I think a LOT of actual (real) Phase One MFDB users would disagree with you here. Unless you have a Phase One MFDB or are truly about to invest in medium format digital----the new Phase One camera body won't have much appeal other than intellectual (and often less than intellectual) gyrations similar to those reading Car & Driver who will never come closer to a supercar than viewing on the glossy pages of their favored publication or on the internet.
But from what I've seen on this thread and elsewhere, your commentary is very predictable. ::)
That's just my .02 from an actual Phase One user---- no puppy needed.
;) ken
+1
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There sure seems to be a lack of excitement here: Edmund doesn't seem to be buying one of the new cameras.
I don't see how Phase One can expect to succeed unless they can win over the troll demographic.
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This has gone down hill fast.
The good news is that after the long wait we have not only a new camera body to ogle at, we also have 3-new digital backs. I'm certain that like always we'll pick everything apart not understanding that there never has and never will be a "perfect" camera for everyone. If you don't like it fine - no one is forcing anyone to buy it. If you like it and can afford the price of admission then buy it and use it for what it is. A tool.
This happens every time a new camera is released. It's either the death of MF or the worst thing that could happen. This also lasts for a couple weeks while spreading hundreds of pages on various threads. And don't forget all the goofy grafts and "sample" images backing up the ideas. For once I'd like not to see this however I guess it's the nature of the beast.
From my own personal perspective - I see enough in the leaks to make me like the camera body knowing full well it'll have some quirks and warts that will need to be ironed out. I like this well enough to be bothering my dealer to find out how soon I can order it.
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If the UI on the body allows for lots of straight forward button assignments it'll help immensely. I'm interested to see if the light meter works with the waist level viewfinder, unlike the H body.
I also like the idea they dropped the 40mp backs, but it has downsides in there isn't a new $13k kit (in addition to others). Come on Phase, just announce it :D
-Joe
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there isn't a new $13k kit (in addition to others).
What an actual price announcement. Here in the UK we need to resort to a Freedom of Information Act request to get prices on Phase backs from new.
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What an actual price announcement. Here in the UK we need to resort to a Freedom of Information Act request to get prices on Phase backs from new.
There are now EIGHT ( 8 ) Phase digital backs listed on the first page of the For Sale forum, so someone must know something about upgrade pricing and compatibility ...
Edmund
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Damn Edmund,
Your such a little french troublemaker.
You bitch and moan about where is the camera and now your find the for sale section to illustrate a problem.
Hand it to them. They came out with a modern medium format camera in a very, very, very changing world and even dropped a waist level finder on it.
They did what Zeiss wouldn't do and made a modern contax.
If you ask me it takes Balls and btw: how's your digital back project coming along?
BC
J,
I'm the first to say we need to *see* and *use* the new Phase camera before we can bitch about it.
Phase have taken years to make it, they deserve the benefit of doubt, exactly like Pentax deserved the benefit of doubt when they brought out their MF digital after years of showing around an unfinished prototype in a glass case.
My remark about the for sale section is that clearly some upgrade pricing and compatibility info has been leaking, or else there wouldn't be such a huge batch of backs for sale on that one page.
As for my own MF stuff, find me a decent sensor source that will work with me, and we'll talk about it. But don't worry, someone will bring back the view cameras before we're all dead. The plastic sheet-sensor is coming. Anyway, I'm world champion of unfinished projects. This one cost me a good friend who made me really angry by delaying me when I had time to work.
Regarding Zeiss and the Contax, word is that Zeiss desperately tried and tried to get it back but Kyocera for some reason just wouldn't hear of it; the camera line died because it was a preceding Kyocera CEO's pet project and was stopped when he left - or died, I cannot remember.
Edmund
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I just want that body... I looks to meet the requirements I need, and hopefully the AF is good enough.
Looking at the front of the camera itself, the assist light seems to be white, instead of infrared like the Df and DF+, so I'm hoping that's a sign it's moving into an AF arena closer to the Hasselblad camera.
I just hope they make the body backwards compatible with at least all the modern digital backs.
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"I'm the first to say we need to *see* and *use* the new Phase camera before we can bitch about it."
Funny, really funny.
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"I'm the first to say we need to *see* and *use* the new Phase camera before we can bitch about it."
Funny, really funny.
As it is not a Df+ retread, and as it has finally appeared... I think one needs to look at it before bashing it.
I think this thread is now obsolete so I'm locking it.
The place to go is here. (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=100824.0)
Edmund