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Author Topic: So where is the new Phase One body  (Read 42941 times)

eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2015, 05:07:31 am »

One thing is certain: For institutional static use, Sony 35mm multishot is going to be fighting with Phase MF monoshot at a huge price differential.
Like Apple with Samsung, Phase is in the very uncomfortable situation of competing with its main component supplier.

Edmund
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Kolor-Pikker

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2015, 06:08:20 am »

One thing is certain: For institutional static use, Sony 35mm multishot is going to be fighting with Phase MF monoshot at a huge price differential.

Anything institutional will afford to own what an expert will recommend them to own, the hardware expense isn't likely to be very significant against all of their other expenditures. High-end scanning systems, Hasselblad multi-shot, the Phase "Cultural Heritage" edition - I don't think cutting corners is even on the table.

For the average photographer who does this kind of stuff on the side, an inexpensive MS camera may definitely add something to the resume for little extra cost, but a museum that intends to exploit the system for a decade of use to preserve historically important artifacts can afford that kind of price differential.
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synn

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2015, 07:16:31 am »

Anything institutional will afford to own what an expert will recommend them to own, the hardware expense isn't likely to be very significant against all of their other expenditures. High-end scanning systems, Hasselblad multi-shot, the Phase "Cultural Heritage" edition - I don't think cutting corners is even on the table.

For the average photographer who does this kind of stuff on the side, an inexpensive MS camera may definitely add something to the resume for little extra cost, but a museum that intends to exploit the system for a decade of use to preserve historically important artifacts can afford that kind of price differential.

This.
I will never cease to be amused by how Mr. PhD can speak with authority on behalf of commercial photographers, cultural institutions and everything in between without a day's worth of experience in these areas of business. You don't see Frank Doorhof posting here disputing his coding experience, do you?

P.S. I have done zero business with DT, but their custom made archival rig can reproduce art several times bigger and better than any small format system with sensor shift can do. Customers who use and demand output of that quality are not going to switch overnight just because there is a cheap multishot small format option.

That's about as asinine as saying that Glenmorangie would be out of business just because Aldi has a new in house scotch brand at 1/10th the price.
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eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2015, 01:58:50 pm »

This.
I will never cease to be amused by how Mr. PhD can speak with authority on behalf of commercial photographers, cultural institutions and everything in between without a day's worth of experience in these areas of business. You don't see Frank Doorhof posting here disputing his coding experience, do you?

P.S. I have done zero business with DT, but their custom made archival rig can reproduce art several times bigger and better than any small format system with sensor shift can do. Customers who use and demand output of that quality are not going to switch overnight just because there is a cheap multishot small format option.

That's about as asinine as saying that Glenmorangie would be out of business just because Aldi has a new in house scotch brand at 1/10th the price.

Dear Synn, measurements do not describe a system's ergonomics, or workflow suitability, as you rightly indicate, and there is no reason why an institution that uses Phase or Hassy should switch over.

However, in the US museums usually acquire their collections by donation or endowment, and thus if they have art valued at millions they have commensurate staff and budgets. In Europe there are a lot of small regional museums, archives, libraries  and churches, which have very valuable art and old books and manuscripts, but next to zero budgets.

 Small underfunded institutions and churches here in Europe will probably go with whatever is cheap to source locally, and Sony Pentax and Canon have a sales agent in every smallish town. I don't see Father Christmas appearing and donating a Phase system or a Cruse scanner to many of these places who struggle with their roof repairs.

Edmund
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synn

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2015, 02:02:25 pm »

So you're saying that phase is gonna lose customers they never had in the first place...

I can see how your business plan never got off the paper.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 02:04:01 pm by synn »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2015, 03:38:17 pm »

For the record I do not anticipate that we will be selling these with a Pentax 35mm camera.  ;D

DT BC100 Book Capture Station


Jokes aside, it might be informative to understand that in general Institutes of Cultural Heritage make their decisions based off of ROI (return on investment) and program-total-costs rather than initial cash outlays. When you consider the costs of labor (not just the camera operator but the rest of the team surrounding any digitization program), computers/stands/facilities, server maintenance and other operational and overhead costs, the cost of any camera system (whether $1k or $50k) is negligible in those calculations over even a few months, let alone the life of the equipment.

I can't vouch for what institutions do that can barely keep a roof over their head, but even smaller institutions are investing considerable sums into digitization programs that comply with FADGI standards.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 03:44:16 pm by Doug Peterson »
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Kolor-Pikker

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2015, 04:10:26 pm »

Small underfunded institutions and churches here in Europe will probably go with whatever is cheap to source locally, and Sony Pentax and Canon have a sales agent in every smallish town. I don't see Father Christmas appearing and donating a Phase system or a Cruse scanner to many of these places who struggle with their roof repairs.

If they don't have a large enough collection to warrant the expense, one can hire a person or company from the next town over that are well equipped, and if they're struggling with just getting by, I don't think that they're thinking of splurging on high-end photography either. It's a middle ground that I don't think exists unless the curator also happens to be a photography enthusiast.

Even if Sony, Canon and Pentax have sales agents everywhere, where's the guarantee that they offer anything high-end? My local Apple dealer doesn't carry Mac Pros, the local photography stores rarely even have 5D3s or D810s, so a Pentax store then isn't obliged to carry the 645.

Quote
Like Apple with Samsung, Phase is in the very uncomfortable situation of competing with its main component supplier.
I glanced over this bit before but it's also wrong. Phase is not in any kind of situation, they carved out their own niche and few products really compete, none of which are from Sony. In fact Sony must be happy and surprised at how well their new sensor is selling. Component suppliers will never truly create uncomfortable situations, whoever sells more, they win.
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eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2015, 05:46:40 pm »

Doug,

 As always, I wish you the best of luck for your sales -  in my opinion, the customers who have this sort of budget couldn't find a better dealer to look after them.

Edmund


For the record I do not anticipate that we will be selling these with a Pentax 35mm camera.  ;D

DT BC100 Book Capture Station


Jokes aside, it might be informative to understand that in general Institutes of Cultural Heritage make their decisions based off of ROI (return on investment) and program-total-costs rather than initial cash outlays. When you consider the costs of labor (not just the camera operator but the rest of the team surrounding any digitization program), computers/stands/facilities, server maintenance and other operational and overhead costs, the cost of any camera system (whether $1k or $50k) is negligible in those calculations over even a few months, let alone the life of the equipment.

I can't vouch for what institutions do that can barely keep a roof over their head, but even smaller institutions are investing considerable sums into digitization programs that comply with FADGI standards.
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eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2015, 05:47:13 am »

Synn

 If you feel nervous that the Phase product is disrespected in these discussions, I could easily arrange for a quick MTF and DR test comparison against Canon or Nikon that would clear matters up, and irrefutably demonstrate the system's superiority  ;D

Edmund
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Theodoros

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2015, 07:49:24 am »


My POV on a new Phase One/Mamiya camera is quite simple... P1 where smart enough to make their backs accessible from many users of different cameras and these backs can are interchangeable with older camera bodies of the same maker... Clearly there are many users that buy their backs on other than M645 mount and there are others that upgrade their backs while keeping their older M645 camera.

So, it all depends on how many sales does the camera body do... If it is thousands, a new camera body may be considered, if it is a few hundreds, It maybe wise not to bother... After all, a new body should be up to H5X level of quality to be worthwhile and that should require a good investment to be achieved... (otherwise I see no reason why one shouldn't consider buying an H body with a P1 back - many do).

That said, I believe that P1 would have raised their share in the market further if they would have supported Rollei 6XXX & HY6 cameras... I also believe that P1 would be even stronger in the market if they had multishot backs on offer and if their backs where adapted to different cameras via interchangeable plates... IMO, if Hasselblad wouldn't have closed the H system in the past and if they would have kept their CF interchangeable backs in production... P1 would have been a market follower of them by now, I also believe that if Pentax ever decides to offer a higher end version of their 645 camera with interchangeable back and even offer the back in more mounts than their own, P1 will lose the vast majority of their current customers to them....
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synn

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2015, 11:59:56 am »

 
Synn

 If you feel nervous that the Phase product is disrespected in these discussions, I could easily arrange for a quick MTF and DR test comparison against Canon or Nikon that would clear matters up, and irrefutably demonstrate the system's superiority  ;D

Edmund

I am not nervous about anything other than the fact that a person who has only a negligible experience in medium format is allowed to go on and on about it in these forums as if he is an expert.

you can save the MTF charts for your weekly geek club meet up or whatever. I make my gear decisions  on how they work for me in real life shooting conditions.

unless of course, your comparison would include the Edmund Ronald PhD vaporware edition digital back. I for one would LOVE to see the superiority of that!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 12:06:55 pm by synn »
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sgilbert

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2015, 12:21:46 pm »

A serious question:  What is a troll?

I know the term has pejorative connotations in the internet world, but doesn't someone who posts on threads simply to stir up trouble qualify?  
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synn

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2015, 12:27:40 pm »

 A person who starts threads like "so where is the new phase body?" And calling out two well respected dealers, all the while having zero interest to move to medium format certainly qualifies  as a troll.
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NickT

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2015, 09:11:52 pm »

For the record I do not anticipate that we will be selling these with a Pentax 35mm camera.  ;D

DT BC100 Book Capture Station


Awesome setup, thanks for sharing Doug.
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eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2015, 11:08:07 pm »

There are even some low end DIY setups. Wikipedia says " High-end scanners capable of thousands of pages per hour can cost thousands of dollars, but do-it-yourself (DIY), manual book scanners capable of 1200 pages per hour have been built for US$300.[1]"

Over the years I've seen some very capable cheapish automated designs, but the really smart systems eg. used by Google are said to be capable of tracking page distorsions by tricks like scanning the page with a laser. Maybe Doug can tell us more about the capabilities of the setups he sells?

I think the market is so huge that there is room for every product and price range, from Doug's US museum-grade products, down to the use of a 20MP cellphone with a couple of LED strip lights.

I wonder how the Mormons are copying all those birth registers? Does anybody know?

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 11:25:43 pm by eronald »
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JamesJetel

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2015, 12:19:13 am »

So all this niche infighting aside, I really would like a camera that can focus. I'll pay.
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LKaven

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2015, 12:30:44 am »

A person who starts threads like "so where is the new phase body?" And calling out two well respected dealers, all the while having zero interest to move to medium format certainly qualifies  as a troll.

A little push-back is a healthy thing in my view.  I don't expect to hear push-back from people who want to move to medium format.

jeremydillon

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2015, 12:48:48 am »

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eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2015, 07:02:23 am »

So all this niche infighting aside, I really would like a camera that can focus. I'll pay.

As this thread has confirmed, Phase's best feature is the superb back/software integration and seamless tethering.
The main attraction of Hassy as I see it is that they do have a modern body with very good focus, and fast flash sync across the lens range.
Nice backs from Phase, nice bodies from Hassy - that has been the situation for 10 years, I don't see it changing.
It's up to you to decide which features you need most.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 07:25:06 am by eronald »
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JamesJetel

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2015, 07:37:14 am »

Yeah that's unfortunate, I've been waiting for something viable from them for a few years now. The back puts out amazing pictures on my RM3di, but when it comes to reactive shooting/and moving subjects with the 645df...I seriously considered the 645z when it came out, and most times just end up reaching for the Canon.
Don't get me wrong the quality is amazing, but the quality coming from most modern cameras is amazing. That's just not enough on set, this camera breaks the rhythm. If Phase puts out something by the end of the year I'll stick with them and invest in more glass. Otherwise, time to start dating. 
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