Bullying as a substitute for Argument

[stamper]

It's all about "credentials". If someone is offering advice and if you can see their output you know what they are talking about if you see their images. Alain Briot is a regular poster of articles on the forum with respect to photography. As you read his essay you will see images placed between the sentences and you immediately know that the advice is worthwhile. No images and you start to wonder how "qualified" he is to post an essay. As to feeling bullied then some people are simply over sensitive?

[shadowblade]

It's all about "credentials". If someone is offering advice and if you can see their output you know what they are talking about if you see their images. Alain Briot is a regular poster of articles on the forum with respect to photography. As you read his essay you will see images placed between the sentences and you immediately know that the advice is worthwhile. No images and you start to wonder how "qualified" he is to post an essay. As to feeling bullied then some people are simply over sensitive?

Appeals to authority are a terrible way to gauge truth.

You can produce very aesthetically-pleasing images while knowing nothing about the technical aspects of cameras and lenses. Conversely, an expert in optics or signal processing may have terrible aesthetic sense.

When it comes to physical sciences based on known laws (i.e. not cutting-edge experimental research that's reliant on data analysis) nothing beats logic and mathematics. If Einstein had said that the world was flat, that still wouldn't make it true, nor would the fact that he was Einstein give any more weight to his argument.

[AreBee]

stamper,

If someone is offering advice and if you can see their output you know what they are talking about if you see their images. Alain Briot is a regular poster of articles on the forum with respect to photography. As you read his essay you will see images placed between the sentences and you immediately know that the advice is worthwhile.

Is it because the images are good that advice offered can be relied upon, or:

No images and you start to wonder how "qualified" he is to post an essay.

Is it simply because images, good or bad, are shown that advice can be relied upon?

Or something else entirely?

[spidermike]

For all this talk about teaching and validity, how many people would honestly follow the advice someone who is new to a forum? I develop this trust over time (I guess this 'trust' is what others are calling 'authority'): I have seen advice on camera gear from people whose portfoio is either non-exitsent or suggests other expertise (someone with a porfolio full of landscapes offering advice on wildlife photography as an example).  The people I trust are those whose comments over time chime with those from people I learned to trust previously - I develop an understanding of those who are into the technical side of things and are merely competent and those who are fantastic photographes but know very little about the technical side of things not of how their gear works. And until I have developed that trust I take a person's opinion as just that - if I have no reason to discount what they are saying then I take it as one way of looking at the situation.
The thing is, sometimes I am looking for comment on aesthetics and at others I am looking for an understanding of the technical/mechanical side of it, and this may mean listening to different people depending on circumstance.

[Isaac]

And until I have developed that trust I take a person's opinion as just that…

Errare humanum est.

So Доверяй, но проверяй. (Trust but verify.)

[jjj]

I think that most of the folk who might have forwarded cogent arguments on this topic have been chased away by the bullies.

If they are so easily chased away, maybe they should be?

Says the person who likes to indulge in bullying and also defend the bullying of others.

[jjj]

Another thing that escapes me is, who has been (successfully) bullied and by whom?  Most contributors to this forum impress me as totally immune to bullying of any sort.  However, susceptiblity to boredome and annoyance are frequently displayed. 

The people who are no longer here are the ones who can probably give a better answer. Those who are left are the ones who can tolerate/ignore the abuse. They are not a sign there is no problem.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

fwiw I do remember seeing bragging in the "User Critiques" sub-forum about particular individuals who'd been chased-off.

Care to share with us your remembrance?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I did...

Well, who was doing the bragging and who'd been chased-off?

[John Koerner]

It's all about "credentials". If someone is offering advice and if you can see their output you know what they are talking about if you see their images. Alain Briot is a regular poster of articles on the forum with respect to photography. As you read his essay you will see images placed between the sentences and you immediately know that the advice is worthwhile. No images and you start to wonder how "qualified" he is to post an essay. As to feeling bullied then some people are simply over sensitive?

Precisely.

Nobody cares about what somebody's opinion is, unless they can take stellar photos.

While the OP calls this "Bullying as a Substitute for Argument," another perspective is that the OP is basically Crying Boo-hoo as a Substitute for being able to post Compelling Images.

The saying, "A picture's worth a thousand words," exists for a reason.

Nobody really cares what anyone's wordy opinion is on a subject, unless they have proven expertise in that subject.

I have never gone to the website of a single lousy photographer to read "what they had to say" about "the latest equipment" they've bought ... but I have gone to many photographers' websites who have posted images that compelled me to have a closer look.

This simple fact of life should pretty much clear the air here ...

Jack

[Isaac]

Nobody really cares what anyone's wordy opinion is on a subject, unless they have proven expertise in that subject.

Nobody should really care about anyone's outstanding photographs (or mediocre photographs) unless those photographs are directly relevant to the subject.

[BernardLanguillier]

Nobody cares about what somebody's opinion is, unless they can take stellar photos.

Not sure how you can make such sweeping statements.

I am personally very interested in the technical opinions of many posters here regardless of the quality of their photographs, which doesn't mean I don't believe in the value of illustrating a post with an image.



Cheers,
Bernard

[mouse]

Nobody cares about what somebody's opinion is, unless they can take stellar photos.

Nobody really cares what anyone's wordy opinion is on a subject, unless they have proven expertise in that subject.

Jack

If that were true then nobody would care about (or bother to read or respond to) the vast majority of posts in this forum.

[John Koerner]

Nobody should really care about anyone's outstanding photographs (or mediocre photographs) unless those photographs are directly relevant to the subject.

True.

Discussing the subject of critical focus is best illustrated with a photo of such.

Only then do a person's words become meaningful (or at least more meaningful).

A man who buys a great drum set, but who can't drum, will never inspire a crowd 

[John Koerner]

Not sure how you can make such sweeping statements.

Same as you, with my keyboard

I am personally very interested in the technical opinions of many posters here regardless of the quality of their photographs, which doesn't mean I don't believe in the value of illustrating a post with an image.
Cheers,
Bernard

We simply differ then.

I am interested in the opinions of those who can take photographs the quality of which inspires me to listen ...

[John Koerner]

If that were true then nobody would care about (or bother to read or respond to) the vast majority of posts in this forum.

There is a difference from "the compulsion to debate" and actually listening to what someone has to say

We all are guilty of debating ad nauseum at times, but only when someone shows us he/she is capable of producing what we ourselves aspire to produce do we care ...

Jack

[Isaac]

Discussing the subject of critical focus is best illustrated with a photo of such.

Agreed. However the benefit would be that we had an illustration. Whether or not someone involved in the discussion had actually taken that photo doesn't seem relevant.

Only then do a person's words become meaningful (or at least more meaningful).

At least with both their words and an illustration we are more likely to see what they meant.

[armand]

Nobody cares about what somebody's opinion is, unless they can take stellar photos

 Jack, do you take stellar photos?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Jack, do you take stellar photos?

No, his photos are more down-to-earth

[bjanes]

Nobody cares about what somebody's opinion is, unless they can take stellar photos.

While the OP calls this "Bullying as a Substitute for Argument," another perspective is that the OP is basically Crying Boo-hoo as a Substitute for being able to post Compelling Images.

The saying, "A picture's worth a thousand words," exists for a reason.

Nobody really cares what anyone's wordy opinion is on a subject, unless they have proven expertise in that subject.

Your statements might apply to authors discussing artistic aspects of photography, but for scientific analysis of imaging elements, the ability to take stunning photos is of little significance. According to Ansel Adams, Edward Weston had difficulties reading a light meter. He would be qualified to discuss artistic aspects of photography, but  I would not be interested in his views on photometry. On the other hand, Emil Martinec's masterful analysis of noise is enabled more by his PhD in physics than his ability to take stunning photographs.

Regards,

Bill