Bullying as a substitute for Argument

[Isaac]

Without knowing the full background … It is rather like someone walking into a room, making a controversial comment then walking out when the discussion kicks off.

It is rather like someone walking into a room, saying there's a photography section on the BBC Travel website, then walking out.

It's much more like other people walking into a room and seeing that someone's written - there's a photography section on the BBC Travel website - on the notice board.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

For a Socratic method to be successful, a "Socrates" must have an established authority. Most of those frequently engaging in it here don't. That's what makes it annoying.

[AlterEgo]

Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.

so true, but you don't dispute that those who can "do" in many cases really need (may be initially) those who can "teach"

[LKaven]

What makes it annoying is realizing that you don't have a sensible answer.

..or that the Socratic challenge involves a strawman in the form:

"So basically, you are saying <strawman>?"

...in reply to everything.  This to my mind is often a form of disguised passive aggression.

[AreBee]

Luke,

It is certainly educated guessing.  You could have used a helicopter.  Basically I put my bet down that you climbed the mountain.  Was I right?

Yes, but that is trivial.

...I can tell, among other things, that you are willing to work as hard as necessary to get the picture...even after climbing, you're willing to work for it.  And you know when you've got it.

The above is far from a trivial assertion.

[Isaac]

..or that the Socratic challenge involves a strawman in the form:

"So basically, you are saying <strawman>?"

...in reply to everything.  This to my mind is often a form of disguised passive aggression.

You're talking in abstractions about someone's comments without any actual reference to those comments.

To your mind, is that often a form of disguised passive aggression or just rude.

[stamper]

What makes it annoying is realizing that you don't have a sensible answer.

Isaac have you forgotten about your statement in Reply#78?

Given that mismatch, repeatedly questioning someone's opinions can become a kind-of intellectual bullying.

[Isaac]

Earlier in the thread you commented on Peter Ait's [Jim Pascoe's] civil post to you. Did you take it on board?

When I made a comment about one of your photographs you did nothing to disrupt the discussion; but when someone else's photograph is being discussed you do not hesitate to disrupt the discussion.

In fact, you bring up the same complaint in an entirely different discussion leading to yet more disruption.

Physician heal thyself.

[LKaven]

Luke,

Yes, but that is trivial.

The above is far from a trivial assertion.

So we're agreed.  What's the fact of the matter?  Does it actually turn out that you rode on the backs of sherpas who took you to the most photogenic spots in a sedan chair?  You can put my educated guess to shame if you'd like, it's ok.

[jjj]

Isaac - to be frank your (almost) only contribution to pictures on this site cannot be real evidence that you are an active photographer any more than somebody quoting only one sentence from their unpublished novel could be considered a novelist.
You may take photographs or you may not - I'm not overly concerned.  But if you do it seems only reasonable to post them sometimes or give a link to them.  Your posts are still perfectly valid without you needing to contribute photographically, but you have to appreciate that they will be very undervalued by anybody who actually is a photographer.  Perhaps you have dug yourself into a deep hole about this over the years and you now find it impossible to post pictures in case they are overtly criticised. 

After all this time, Isaac is damned if if does and damned if he doesn't post photos. Unless he is an amazingly good photographer of course. 

If that is the case - I wouldn't worry - some of the best, most knowledgable posters on the forum are average to mediocre photographers - in my opinion.

Possibly actually not that knowledgeable about photography, if they are not very good photographers then.  The phrase 'knowing the cost of everything, but the value of nothing' springs to mind here.

[jjj]

Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.

p.s. There are some who can do both, but they are the exception, not the rule.

What people who come out with this statement usually fail to realise, is that be able to teach is a great skill in itself and teaching is in itself doing. A skill which most people do not possesst, therefore can't teach,
that includes masters at something. And is why being an expert at something should not be the most important skill required in a teacher.

[spidermike]

What people who come out with this statement usually fail to realise, is that be able to teach is a great skill in itself and teaching is in itself doing. A skill which most people do not possesst, therefore can't teach,
that includes masters at something. And is why being an expert at something should not be the most important skill required in a teacher.

http://www.elephantjournal.com/2011/08/the-ultimate-rebuttal-to-those-who-can-do-those-who-cant-teach/

[NancyP]

I often do a better job of teaching something that isn't my favorite specialty. I trim material more vigorously, and students seem to do better with a bare-bones lecture including only the most important concepts and facts than with a comprehensive lecture.

[dwswager]

Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.

p.s. There are some who can do both, but they are the exception, not the rule.

You forgot the corollary.  Those that can do, can't teach.  Mainly because they do by intuition and not technical understanding.

[stamper]

No, I have not forgotten. What's your point?

My point is that you aren't the victim that you have tried, and failed to point out, but quite often the aggressor.

[stamper]

When I made a comment about one of your photographs you did nothing to disrupt the discussion; but when someone else's photograph is being discussed you do not hesitate to disrupt the discussion.

In fact, you bring up the same complaint in an entirely different discussion leading to yet more disruption.

Physician heal thyself.

quote

fwiw I find the strips of cloud completely distracting and don't look at the rest of the picture.

unquote

Anyone who wants to learn to critique an image won't want to do what you did and not look at all of the picture?

[Isaac]

My point is that you aren't the victim that you have tried, and failed to point out, but quite often the aggressor.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Anyone who wants to learn to critique an image won't want to do what you did and not look at all of the picture?

As before, I did look at all of the picture and you edited my words to suggest I did not.

[mouse]

You forgot the corollary.  Those that can do, can't teach.  Mainly because they do by intuition and not technical understanding.

That corollary misses the most important part of the lesson:
Of those who can do, some are excellent teachers and others are not.  The latter fail for various reasons, technical competence notwithstanding.   

[jjj]

You forgot the corollary.  Those that can do, can't teach.  Mainly because they do by intuition and not technical understanding.

There is no corollary as the first statements about teaching is not actually true. Not to mention that just because you do something by intuition doesn't mean you cannot reverse engineer how you did it or the fact that other people can do things because they are good at working out how to do things - which is also useful for teaching.
It's also actually quite tricky to teach something you cannot do. So if you cannot do something or teach it then you usually become a critic.  

[eronald]

What people who come out with this statement usually fail to realise, is that be able to teach is a great skill in itself and teaching is in itself doing. A skill which most people do not possesst, therefore can't teach,
that includes masters at something. And is why being an expert at something should not be the most important skill required in a teacher.

A pearl
Maybe heated discussions do generate some sparks of light.

Edmund