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Author Topic: Bullying as a substitute for Argument  (Read 37174 times)

AlterEgo

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2015, 10:09:37 am »

Another straw-man argument, as no one ever asked them to show their pictures.

exactly...  would you ask Emil Martinec to show pictures  :D or would you seek Mark Dubovoi's advice abour DR  ;D ?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2015, 10:14:36 am »

The following quote comes to mind:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

In other words, "better not to show my pictures..." ;)

Colorado David

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2015, 10:39:14 am »

My personal rules for posting are to post when I can contribute to the discussion and to reply in the same fashion I would if we were standing together having a face-to-face conversation.  I try my best to avoid the feeling of the circle of protection provided by the keyboard.  I post when a discussion is about a piece of equipment I own, have used, an experience I've had, or when I fell compelled to comment on an image that I like.  I rarely comment in critique topics except when I am drawn into an image.  There are times when I feel some people have posted what amounts to snapshots and I pass by without comment.  I've learned over the years that humor translates poorly on a discussion forum and that argument for the sake of argument is a poor way to pass the time.  Another lesson from the depths of the internet is that some people post purely to get a reaction from other people who can then poor a bunch of otherwise useful energy down a rat hole.  Sometimes, maybe many time, trolls get the last word because responding isn't worth the effort and I have something else to do.  I've just used the internet derogatory term "troll."  Please don't assume that I've used in reference to anyone on this thread and call me a bully.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2015, 11:29:11 am »

Nicely spoken, Sir!

Erik


My personal rules for posting are to post when I can contribute to the discussion and to reply in the same fashion I would if we were standing together having a face-to-face conversation.  I try my best to avoid the feeling of the circle of protection provided by the keyboard.  I post when a discussion is about a piece of equipment I own, have used, an experience I've had, or when I fell compelled to comment on an image that I like.  I rarely comment in critique topics except when I am drawn into an image.  There are times when I feel some people have posted what amounts to snapshots and I pass by without comment.  I've learned over the years that humor translates poorly on a discussion forum and that argument for the sake of argument is a poor way to pass the time.  Another lesson from the depths of the internet is that some people post purely to get a reaction from other people who can then poor a bunch of otherwise useful energy down a rat hole.  Sometimes, maybe many time, trolls get the last word because responding isn't worth the effort and I have something else to do.  I've just used the internet derogatory term "troll."  Please don't assume that I've used in reference to anyone on this thread and call me a bully.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2015, 11:38:37 am »

Hi,

My take on these issues is that it doesn't make a lot of harm to be a bit polite. Regarding images, I wouldn't say that the :
"Equipment & Techniques -> Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear" subforum is not a very artistic one. Images that properly illustrate a concept are of course always welcome. But question is, what information do web size images in sRGB really say about anything.

Another point is that I don't feel the need of posting web size images to establish my credibility. The signature on all my posting refers both to my portfolio page on SmugMug and to my articles.

Best regards
Erik

Ps. Just a general reflection, not addressing Slobodan's posting in any way!


The following quote comes to mind:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

In other words, "better not to show my pictures..." ;)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 04:26:09 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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NancyP

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2015, 11:47:56 am »

Bernard, what is that brown dried object in the photo? It is an interesting photo, but as I know you live in Japan, this might be an interesting ingredient in a recipe.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2015, 12:13:30 pm »

Another point is that I don't feel the need of posting web size images to establish my credibility. The signature on all my posting refers both to my portfolio page on SmugMug and to my articles.
Generally it's only the anonymous posters that get challenged. You're not hiding anything.
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stamper

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2015, 12:22:26 pm »

Is accusing someone of trolling bullying?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2015, 12:29:07 pm »

Bernard, what is that brown dried object in the photo? It is an interesting photo, but as I know you live in Japan, this might be an interesting ingredient in a recipe.

Octopus skin :)

LKaven

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2015, 12:32:58 pm »

I think this is an interesting (although, possibly OT) discussion in itself.

I mention it because jazz, like much photography, is a pursuit that depends on a combined knowledge of technical theory and a modernist aesthetic.

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When someone talked about "theory", I must admit that I connect that term with knowledge that have been accumulated in academic institutions. I.e. explanations for observations that have (hopefully) been published in some publication, scrutinized by fellow academics, generally accepted after some time, and eventually incorporated into some kind of canon for the field. Though I must admit that I know less about the process in human sciences than natural science.

In the humanities, theory is manifest in works themselves, and often not in journals.  HCB did write some in Images a la Sauvette about The Decisive Moment.  But talk of what he was doing was common amongst those connected at that level of the enterprise, both in and out of Magnum.  This kind of knowledge is traditionally passed along in the oral history tradition. 

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When you seem to propose that skill learned through listening to great masters (on your own) or at jam-sessions or through informal meetings with fellow artists is also "theory", I think that is a confusing choice of terms.

It'd be more accurate to say that the "community" is an active learning community, and that "theory" is indeed what gets passed along as verbal history in working collaborations and to a degree in more informal encounters.  And in fact, the best theory gets distilled and disseminated this way, and in a way that peer-reviewed journals in educational institutions will never equal. 

Thelonious Monk did go to Juilliard, but his most important innovations were his alone.  He did write them as musical works in musical notation.  You can read that as the primary literature, as well as his improvised performances.  To understand and explain these innovations in harmony and melody though, you really had to be talking either to him, or to people who worked directly with him, or to people who spent a lifetime studying him. 

There are a dozen or so explanations for the technique of adding the sharp-5/flat-6 to the major scale in modern jazz (known sometimes as the "bebop scale").  You will only get one or two of those explanations from any professor of music.  To get the deeper explanations, you have to seek out and learn directly from the people who spent a lifetime learning how to exploit this beautiful bit of theory.  [Barry Harris, a jazz legend, teaches us to use the flat-6 diminished scale as a kind of rosetta stone that allows one to pivot easily between keys that otherwise seem only distantly related to traditional theorists.  It's not a simple lesson, but takes years to master.]

But these are not merely informal encounters.  When one spends months working in the band of a top musician, one gets the opportunity to learn -- by trial -- all the things that go into the making of that musical style.  Very few of these things are taught in the conservatory...or at the jam session either for that matter.

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I can agree that the mathematical structure behind choice of harmony, rhythm and melodic lines may well be similar as taught at a conservatory or at a jam-session, as it may be a matter of condensing (potentially) centuries and millions of culturally (or evolutionary) "preferred" patterns. I have 88 notes on my piano. For "musical theory" to be of any practical value to me playing, it has to say something about what notes to choose, when, how hard to strike them, in different contexts.

Some of this knowledge flows in and out of the academy.  Dr Roland Wiggins was a Juilliard theorist trained in esoteric theory in 20th c. music.  Many jazz musicians in the 60s and 70s sought out Wiggins to teach them some of the things he had learned and knowledge he himself had derived.  Some of this learning took place subsequently in the university (e.g., Yusef Lateef did a doctorate with Wiggins, though Lateef himself was equally a source in their dialogs), and some did not (e.g., Coltrane sought out Wiggins privately to teach him about synthetic structures, which he later incorporated into his later works).

John Koerner

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2015, 12:37:42 pm »

I think that you are argueing against straw-men. Are there forum posts here where people with no apparent artistic skill makes brave claims about how to take artistically good images?

If not, then what is it that you talk about?

-h

Not so.

There was a thread on which the OP (who never stopped mentioning he has a D810 and extolling its virtues) was asked by someone on this thread "to show some of his images" ... as the man himself had shown examples of his own work.

The OP refused to post images ... and now we have this thread. My guess is the OP here did not have similar-quality images as the man who asked, which is to what I am guessing the OP took exception.

I don't remember where the thread was, but it's on this subforum (one of the many Canon/Nikon debates).

Anyway, not a big deal, just kinda funny is all.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2015, 02:39:47 pm »

one of the many Canon/Nikon debates
Generally these sort of debates have been carried out in the past on Lula with courtesy and in the spirit of reasoned discussion.
Unfortunately recently there's been some "my cameras better than yours" nonsense from an evangelical 'fanboi' style perspective. I hope it goes away.
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spidermike

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #72 on: March 30, 2015, 05:15:14 pm »

LKaven - if that is your (to me, rather loose) definition of 'musical theory' then I think your original comment is not in line with that:
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jazz critics who did not study music theory
as 'study' would infer a far more structured environment than that.

But letting that slide, if that is your definition then many critics will have listened to jazz all their lives, have been around the pubs and clubs listening to jazz and speaking to the artists a well as other afficonados. SO it makes me wonder by what crieria you would assess a critic as being sufficiently knowledgable to make public their views on the art form. Is it as simple as 'do I agree with him' ? (I don't mean that in a snide way but it is a very common way of applying Occam's razor).
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LKaven

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #73 on: March 30, 2015, 06:32:15 pm »

LKaven - if that is your (to me, rather loose) definition of 'musical theory' then I think your original comment is not in line with that: as 'study' would infer a far more structured environment than that.

But letting that slide, if that is your definition then many critics will have listened to jazz all their lives, have been around the pubs and clubs listening to jazz and speaking to the artists a well as other afficonados. SO it makes me wonder by what crieria you would assess a critic as being sufficiently knowledgable to make public their views on the art form. Is it as simple as 'do I agree with him' ? (I don't mean that in a snide way but it is a very common way of applying Occam's razor).

Good question.  I did not mean to imply merely the classroom study of music theory as being necessary, though a knowledge of the fundamentals is pretty much necessary.  There is a sense in which one either "gets it" or doesn't.  For example, bebop is a language that one either understands or doesn't.  If one doesn't know Sanskrit, one isn't going to "get" a joke written in Sanskrit.  It is much easier to get an aesthetic appreciation of jazz if one pursues playing an instrument and has attempted to deal with not just the language but also the literature.  It is also easier if one has some degree of systematic ear training.  Otherwise, it is difficult for one to detect the music's internal "rhyme" scheme if one cannot discern the quality of, say, a "sharp-11" where it recurs. 

And yes, I think there's an analogy with photography in there.  :-)

Isaac

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #74 on: March 30, 2015, 11:24:10 pm »

argument for the sake of argument is a poor way to pass the time.  Another lesson from the depths of the internet is that some people post purely to get a reaction from other people who can then poor a bunch of otherwise useful energy down a rat hole.  Sometimes, maybe many time, trolls get the last word because responding isn't worth the effort and I have something else to do.

People can be interested in investigating the basis of their own opinions and other peoples opinions; people can be only interested in defending their opinions. Being shown to be wrong can be a success, we learn something; being shown to be wrong can be a failure, we didn't want to learn.

Given that mismatch, repeatedly questioning someone's opinions can become a kind-of intellectual bullying.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 12:50:33 am by Isaac »
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eronald

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2015, 01:24:10 am »

Guys, I would like to criticise your work here.
In my opinion, you may be good at photography, but you're really bad at bullying!

:)

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 01:25:49 am by eronald »
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shadowblade

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #76 on: March 31, 2015, 03:06:40 am »

People can be interested in investigating the basis of their own opinions and other peoples opinions; people can be only interested in defending their opinions. Being shown to be wrong can be a success, we learn something; being shown to be wrong can be a failure, we didn't want to learn.

Given that mismatch, repeatedly questioning someone's opinions can become a kind-of intellectual bullying.

Not when erroneous opinion is presented as fact. Then it becomes a duty to debunk it.
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stamper

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #77 on: March 31, 2015, 04:09:32 am »

People can be interested in investigating the basis of their own opinions and other peoples opinions; people can be only interested in defending their opinions. Being shown to be wrong can be a success, we learn something; being shown to be wrong can be a failure, we didn't want to learn.

Given that mismatch, repeatedly questioning someone's opinions can become a kind-of intellectual bullying.
[/color]

Something you regularly indulge in Isaac? You paint yourself as a victim but it is the norm for you to post one line links and when someone posts an opinion then you question the veracity of what they are saying. Unfortunately you fail to post an opinion on the link you posted and take umbrage when asked to do so. :(

Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2015, 08:42:05 am »

Guys, I would like to criticise your work here.
In my opinion, you may be good at photography, but you're really bad at bullying!

:)

Edmund
Well argued, Edmund!   :D
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armand

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #79 on: March 31, 2015, 10:39:10 am »

Not when erroneous opinion is presented as fact. Then it becomes a duty to debunk it.

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