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Author Topic: Bullying as a substitute for Argument  (Read 29624 times)

Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2015, 07:03:56 PM »

If the topic is clarified with a photo, why not? Ask to see it. Its funny how we sit hear trying to discuss a visual medium that are translated to words and when there is need to know what perspective ones point is being made with which we avoid visuals? maybe Swager is referring to something more specific, and certainly I can see how, but I would think the opposite to be true in general.

If you want use a crop of an area explaining things. I know some jump on the idea to label someones work, but there is plenty situations you can help clarify something with an image. You can talk for post after post, and thread after thread dancing around what you mean when a picture flat out hits the mark of what someone is referring to. Asking for a picture, as I remember reading in a thread earlier, is not a bad thing, without pushing for it. But it sure does help clarify a number of things. Maybe what you're referring to is different and something I have yet to come across./?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 07:26:00 PM by Phil Indeblanc »
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scooby70

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2015, 07:13:19 PM »

And that is exactly the point: his portfolio is the best advice. If you want to learn about the technology of photography, by all means avoid practitioners and flock to geek forums where you can kick tires all day long. If you want to learn photography, however...

The example of the wide open aperture shooter is nice but I don't think it'd work for everyone and could in many instances result in soft or blown shots so I think having at least a passing knowledge of the gear and what it can do will help most if not all people.

I'm an amateur and when talking to someone who actually gets paid for taking pictures recently I was a little surprised when they asked me "How did you do that?" The two "that's" were an out of focus shot to show colourful bokeh highlights and a Brenizer method shot. If I didn't know how to do these things I couldn't have done them. Other than that I have a technical background and I'm an unremarkable photographer.

I'm not sure I completely understand the point of the original post but personally I do hate it when a picture is posted to demonstrate something and people then ignore the point and criticise the picture.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2015, 07:28:21 PM »

We can talk all we want with different analogies and situations that maybe describing things of the OP's intent, but we are just dancing in circles...

 Swager, if you can please post a picture of what you're referring to, we can all understand...LOL, thanks!
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2015, 04:48:39 AM »

...and I dislike the use of the word craft.

Why?

Jeremy
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Hulyss

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2015, 06:44:01 AM »

And that is exactly the point: his portfolio is the best advice. If you want to learn about the technology of photography, by all means avoid practitioners and flock to geek forums where you can kick tires all day long. If you want to learn photography, however...

Completely agree.

If someone want to learn photography, he should be In Situ with a photographer or he should go to a good school. After that, it will be time for investment because when you go out of photo school or good photographer workshop, you realise how you lack of materials :D

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2015, 09:12:08 AM »

I feel that it is good practise to illustrate a post with an image totally relevant to the point being made.



Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 09:30:45 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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LKaven

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2015, 02:57:03 PM »

The "show us your work" response is sometimes justified in the face of a certain familiar sort of troll.  That troll does roughly as follows:

1) Trashes other people's work without the slightest restraint, often seeming to do it for sadistic pleasure using hate language or passive aggression.
2) Claims, implicitly or explicitly to have expertise in photography.
3) Studiously avoids exposure of either identity or work, demanding that others accept his entitlement without the need for him to demonstrate commensurate achievements.

In a related vein, I feel that jazz critics who did not study music theory have no business passing themselves off as capable of deep insight into the music.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2015, 03:15:55 PM »

I feel that it is good practise to illustrate a post with an image totally relevant to the point being made...

+1


AreBee

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2015, 03:22:50 PM »

wildlightphoto,

1. I do not feel the need to demand proof whenever someone offers their advice.

2. "consider" does not necessarily mean the advice offered will be accepted.
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jjj

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2015, 04:07:19 PM »

Let's add a little perspective to this: Should a football coach (be that American also) or a boxing coach be able to play the sport well to prove its worth? Or are the art critics renowned for their work? Just saying.
No, but coaches have to prove they are damn good coaches as that is their job, a quite different one from playing football or boxing. Critics are all too often failed creatives.

The context here is very different as it is photographers debating photography. Now if you are say advising someone on how to do something but do not have the ability yourself to do what you are advising, then that would be talking out of your posterior. Or if say you are criticising a way of shooting/processing, but again are unable to do that sort of work, then again you are talking balderdash.
Without exception anyone I've seen criticise the use of post processing and eulogise about *straight out of camera* work being real photography, their work if if dare to show it only demonstrates they are incapable of doing good PP. Same goes for those who rail against the use of artificial lighting or sneer at natural lighting, usually they cannot do what they slag off. This is the real reason they attack.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 04:10:23 PM by jjj »
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jjj

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2015, 04:08:32 PM »

Always puts me in mind of cheese slices.
;D
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2015, 04:37:08 PM »

Not sure where this belongs, but since I've seen dozens of posts in this particular board, I put it here.

A statement to the effect of "Show me your photos" is not an argument and in it's basest form is nothing short of bullying.  It is a tactic to intimidate in lieu of actual argument.  Photographic samples that prove, reinforce or refute an argument are always helpful, but that is not usually how these statements are made.  It is usually a blanket ultimatum intended to shut down debate from a particular poster.

Being a master craftsman in some area does not always mean knowing the technical details.  Nor does knowing the details make one an expert.  Some details are unknown or unknowable and through experience we accept the cause and effect relationship that exists even if we don't fully understand the nature of the cause and effect.  This drives people like me nuts because I always want to know why.  But while an craftsman would like to know why, and may continue to strive to know why to better exploit the situation, in his execution he merely needs to know that it is.

I sometimes ask to see photos and the reason is almost always that the poster is not only anonymous but also without any reference to what they are shooting. They even refer to their images time after time without any reference. Some claim many things that to me sounds really odd, contrary to my experience and wrong and I therefore ask what on earth are they shooting given those opinions. Sorry, but I do not call this bullying. Mostly I will ignore them, but sometimes I insist.

People can have their opinions about whatever but when somebody time after time claim something that really begs for an explanation, then why not ask?

Sorry, if my response sounds like bullying, but you were almost asking for it ;)

jjj

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2015, 05:04:25 PM »

I sometimes ask to see photos and the reason is almost always that the poster is not only anonymous but also without any reference to what they are shooting. They even refer to their images time after time without any reference. Some claim many things that to me sounds really odd, contrary to my experience and wrong and I therefore ask what on earth are they shooting given those opinions. Sorry, but I do not call this bullying. Mostly I will ignore them, but sometimes I insist.

People can have their opinions about whatever but when somebody time after time claim something that really begs for an explanation, then why not ask?

Sorry, if my response sounds like bullying, but you were almost asking for it ;)
Responding to an anonymous online troll to put their money where their mouth is certainly not bullying. It's simply asking for context.
Seeing people's work often give an insight to what and why they write what they do.
Having said that there have been some quite nasty attacks on one poster in particular Isaac, with regard to his non posting of images. Who I'm pretty sure this thread is referencing. [though he has posted at least two that I know of]. Anyone who went to a camera club for years on end and never showed other members any photographs at all would be thought of an a bit strange. LuLa is just like an online camera club, so non-image posters should expect to be viewed skeptically, though I'm not condoning bullying of such people..





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telyt

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2015, 05:40:09 PM »

wildlightphoto,

1. I do not feel the need to demand proof whenever someone offers their advice.

2. "consider" does not necessarily mean the advice offered will be accepted.

I don't "demand" proof.  I find that a photograph demonstrating the photographer's style of work or working conditions provides context which allows me to better understand the photographer's commentary.
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stamper

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2015, 04:03:35 AM »

The "show us your work" response is sometimes justified in the face of a certain familiar sort of troll.  That troll does roughly as follows:

1) Trashes other people's work without the slightest restraint, often seeming to do it for sadistic pleasure using hate language or passive aggression.
2) Claims, implicitly or explicitly to have expertise in photography.
3) Studiously avoids exposure of either identity or work, demanding that others accept his entitlement without the need for him to demonstrate commensurate achievements.

Nicely summed up.

Isaac

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2015, 12:41:00 PM »

We can talk all we want with different analogies and situations that maybe describing things of the OP's intent, but we are just dancing in circles...

otoh Here's Jim Pascoe providing a demonstration of civility.


otoh The "he's a cripple" theme continued for months.

That was preceded by the "Post some pictures" theme which went on for a couple of years, until the tedious repetition became too much for Slobodan.

Now the theme seems to be "Click the Report to Moderator button".

Bullies bully, when we let them.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 01:37:43 PM by Isaac »
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spidermike

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2015, 04:28:46 AM »


In a related vein, I feel that jazz critics who did not study music theory have no business passing themselves off as capable of deep insight into the music.

I think the reference to music has a lot of parallels with photography in trying to communicate an idea through non-verbal methods.
How many of the greatest jazz musicians ever went to 'jazz school' and learnt musical theory? They picked up an instrument guitar, learnt to play it and listened to shed loads of music from their peers and played what 'felt right' to them. Many of them couldn't even read music. Music (like the visual arts) either works or it doesn't and if it 'works' for enough people it gradually develops a kudos all of its own.
I am sure that all the theorising about works by Hockney, Emmin or Hirst came about after the work was created because people desperately needed to know why it was appealing rather than those artists working to a known and accepted theory.


But back to the OP, the request to see someone's pictures can have a variety of reasons behind it - sometimes (as has been said) a request to illustrate a specific technical point. But I agree it is also used to shut down argument (it has happened to me) where the person does not like what you say and they can safely ignore your unwelcome comment if your work bears no relation to what they believe they. are trying to achieve
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 04:31:19 AM by spidermike »
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stamper

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2015, 05:20:08 AM »

Displaying images is the ultimate goal of taking them? There are a few who take them and only look at them themselves. They probably think they are good but self praise is no praise? Ultimately I wonder why some don't want to expose their work to friends and the public. Fear.... because they aren't good or the excuse if they post them to the public they will be downloaded and stolen or as sometimes happens critiqued by people who aren't skilled critics. I don't think there is any reasonable excuse for not posting?

hjulenissen

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2015, 05:23:21 AM »

...I don't think there is any reasonable excuse for not posting?
If the images that you care most about are of your kids, spouse, father, you might not want those posted on the internet forever?

-h
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stamper

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Re: Bullying as a substitute for Argument
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2015, 05:23:51 AM »

I think the reference to music has a lot of parallels with photography in trying to communicate an idea through non-verbal methods.
How many of the greatest jazz musicians ever went to 'jazz school' and learnt musical theory? They picked up an instrument guitar, learnt to play it and listened to shed loads of music from their peers and played what 'felt right' to them. Many of them couldn't even read music. Music (like the visual arts) either works or it doesn't and if it 'works' for enough people it gradually develops a kudos all of its own.
I am sure that all the theorising about works by Hockney, Emmin or Hirst came about after the work was created because people desperately needed to know why it was appealing rather than those artists working to a known and accepted theory.


But back to the OP, the request to see someone's pictures can have a variety of reasons behind it - sometimes (as has been said) a request to illustrate a specific technical point. But I agree it is also used to shut down argument (it has happened to me) where the person does not like what you say and they can safely ignore your unwelcome comment if your work bears no relation to what they believe they. are trying to achieve


But if you do as requested then you are in a position to "win the argument" If the person who has asked for the image ridicules what is a fine image then they will become ridiculed? In reality you have called their bluff?
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