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Author Topic: New Printer coming from Epson  (Read 17709 times)

Wayne Fox

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New Printer coming from Epson
« on: March 03, 2015, 08:45:44 pm »

At the WPPI tradeshow, Epson had a "new" printer shrouded under a black cloth.  The prints hanging above it were printed on it.  They wouldn't spill any details, so other than the fact the printers form factor under the cloth is too large to be another 13" printer and the prints printed were both larger than can be printed on the new p600, it's speculation (and I assume that's what they want, otherwise why set up the little mystery display).

It appears a new revised 3880 or a new 17" printer with similar form factor  using the new Ultrachrome HD inkset is coming sooner than later.  Side by side prints from the p600 vs the 7900 to me appeared to demonstrate the claims of better black dMax as well as subtle other improvements.  according to this article epson release information from Wilhelm to demonstrate the new yellow dye has substantially improved longevity, although I didn't see or here this at the booth myself.  I assume they wouldn't be bringing it up if they didn't feel it wasn't so.

Not big news although this is the first sign of inkset improvement from anyone in a few year. Everyone knew it was coming since all the stylus pros are scheduled to be replaced by 2016 with new printers using the new inks.

No clue when they will make it "official" but it seems after making a big deal out of it at WPPI it would be soon.   If the new printer has roll feed like the p600, but larger ink cartridges and clog performance like the 3880 then perhaps it is a bigger deal because it becomes a great choice instead of the 4900.  If it's just an upgraded 3880, then I still like the improvements in the inkset but I don't see people rushing to upgrade.

And then again, who knows it could be something totally different ...
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 10:43:15 pm by Wayne Fox »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2015, 09:14:19 pm »

Hi Wayne,

That's interesting. My main interest in a new model would be something that prints as least as gorgeously as a 4900 but doesn't need the continuous baby-sitting to minimize clogging or ink drops.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Plateau Light

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2015, 09:39:22 pm »

I am going to slip out of the studio and go over tomorrow. I'll check it out.
There is always something cool at the show.

Wayne Fox

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2015, 09:44:18 pm »

I looked at s600 output throughout the booth -it's outstanding.

So here's hoping for a 3880 replacement with roll feed :)

I am going to slip out of the studio and go over tomorrow. I'll check it out.
There is always something cool at the show.

Maybe someone will have pulled that black cover off by then ... I was tempted :)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2015, 09:53:44 pm »


Maybe someone will have pulled that black cover off by then ... I was tempted :)

Being how Epson is, they probably anticipated that temptation and have it firmly anchored! :-)

And all this theater is just a tease to build-up anticipation so that people like you and me will start salivating. Great marketing. 
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Iluvmycam

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2015, 10:03:23 pm »

Thanks for the report.

I hope it has gloss optimizer and on the fly black ink change ability. The 3880 is one helluva machine in its day. Dye stability of Epson is very good as-is.

http://fadetesting.tumblr.com/

Although Canon does seem a little better with the yellows.
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jferrari

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2015, 11:47:40 pm »

Maybe someone will have pulled that black cover off by then ... I was tempted :)

I heard it was Schrödinger's printer under the black cloth! ;D
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 09:19:50 am by jferrari »
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Nothing changes until something changes.

Wayne Fox

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2015, 12:39:17 am »


Although Canon does seem a little better with the yellows.
check the data at Wilhelm or Aardenburg ... it's not just a little better.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2015, 12:43:06 am »

check the data at Wilhelm or Aardenburg ... it's not just a little better.

Do you mean quality of reproduction, longevity or both?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Stefan Ohlsson

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2015, 03:18:00 am »

Do you mean quality of reproduction, longevity or both?
What they test is longevity, and in that area Canon has a much better track record. Will be interesting to see how Epson's new ink set will do in this area. If you compare the color of the P600 with a 4900 you can see that there are parts were the addition of orange and green makes a difference. It will be interesting to see if Epson will add these colors to their professional printers. One of the advantage of the x900 printers is that they can reproduce almost all of the Pantone colors. If Epson don't add extra colors to their professional range they will lose this advantage.
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bill t.

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2015, 03:55:53 am »

Here's a less than satisfactory gamut comparison of the P600 versus the x900 series.  It's not stated what paper, but it looks like a glossy from the x900 hull.  Not much difference in the shadows, but there are voids in the the P600 bright blues and greens and yellows that could seriously impact print brilliance on at least landscapes.  I'd much rather have minimal gamut clipping in those areas than a little more D-max.  Of course gamut graphs don't tell the whole story of a print as viewed, only a lot of it.  It's possible the P600 gets higher marks for apparent saturation than for brilliance.

The red hull is the older x900 printer.


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Paul2660

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2015, 08:13:14 am »

Boy I sure hope Epson adds:

1.  A feature to reduce bronzing, which is terrible on the 9900 with Canon Platine and pretty harsh on most other color papers
2.  Find a way to reduce gloss differential.
3.  Allow the Matte and Photo black to live (I realize this is the case on some of the smaller printers)

The bronzing issue is by far the worst issue for me.

Paul
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2015, 10:05:26 am »

Talking about dye or pigment inks for the Epson P600 and the new printer? For the p600 it is still not clear to me since the Photokina and this thread confuses me too.
The weak link in the Epson pigment inks has been the yellow. In case of dyes this thread is interesting: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=98298.0

I see 200 years according Wilhelm for the p600/Exhibition Fiber print framed behind glass. The ink may hit that but the paper white, Wilhelm is not really measuring that.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Wayne Fox

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2015, 02:03:32 pm »

Talking about dye or pigment inks for the Epson P600 and the new printer? For the p600 it is still not clear to me since the Photokina and this thread confuses me too.
the p600 is Ultrachrome HD (not to be confused with UltraChrome HDR which is the inkset with orange and green)... pigment inks. Change in encapsulation of dyes which increased dMax and improved dyes in the yellow for fading.

Quote
I see 200 years according Wilhelm for the p600/Exhibition Fiber print framed behind glass.
I tried to find it on Wilhelm’s site ... what a joke.  Was that UV glass or just glass?  7900 rating for EEF is 90 years under glass, 150 years with “UV Filter”.
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John Nollendorfs

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2015, 04:41:48 pm »

Wayne:
I would guess it would be "plain" glass, not UV. The reason for using glass is two fold, one to reduce UV induced fade, and two, to seal the print from atmospheric contaminates. In terms of filtering UV, UV glass is at most maybe 10-15% more effective than regular window glass. UV glass really is over-hyped in that regard, considering how much more it costs.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2015, 06:24:51 pm »


I tried to find it on Wilhelm’s site ... what a joke.  Was that UV glass or just glass?  7900 rating for EEF is 90 years under glass, 150 years with “UV Filter”.

Finding anything on Wilhelm's site is "no joke". A mess. Anyhow, best to see whether Aardenburg has results for the yellow issue. Can't check just now.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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samueljohnchia

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2015, 09:30:16 pm »

Change in encapsulation of dyes which increased dMax and improved dyes in the yellow for fading.

I'm foggy over this - are you saying Epson uses dye in their pigments inks?
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MHMG

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2015, 09:45:38 am »


  according to this article epson release information from Wilhelm to demonstrate the new yellow dye has substantially improved longevity, although I didn't see or here this at the booth myself.  I assume they wouldn't be bringing it up if they didn't feel it wasn't so.



Although the >200 year estimates being reported in the cited trade show article do indeed suggest improved light fade resistance for the new UCHD pigment ink set compared to the current Epson K3VM or HDR pigment sets, it's hard to read much more into the results than that because the WIR endpoints are based on densitometric measurements with liberal amounts of change allowed at the testing endpoint (e.g. 35% pure yellow loss, 12-18 % color balance shifts, etc). Also, percent density losses are not visually linear nor does WIR publish the actual fading curves, hence it's impossible to say what the aged image appearance may look like in 25, 50, or 100 years let alone over 200 years. The progression of visual appearance change in the artwork over the course of time is the key to what should be of interest to serious printmakers and to the retention of the artist's original intent, not the fact that a print is claimed to last a century or more.  Even lignin-filled acidic newsprint will easily last that long if one tolerates liberal amounts of media discoloration and paper embrittlement over time.  In other words, any print made today on just about any media may still have some functional (i.e.,historic, artistic, or sentimental) value a century from now, but it won't necessarily have retained a pleasing appearance, and disconcerting changes may be unavoidable much sooner along the arch of time.

Another interesting fact is that a 200 year Wilhelm Display rating requires 400 megalux hours of light exposure.  Even with very intense light fade testing units, it would take several months or more to rack up that level of exposure, indeed well over a year if more reasonable accelerated aging conditions are used to accumulate this dosage or come close enough so that further extrapolation to the anticipated endpoints can be made.  Thus, we can conclude that the WIR testing of the P600 printer and inks was performed under contract to Epson and is based on samples made on prototype equipment and pre-production inks in order for any test results to be ready in time for product launch.  

Unlike other testing labs, AaI&A only tests commercially available systems that anyone can buy.  The P600 has only just recently reached store shelves in the US, so it's going to be a while before I will have any substantive test results to share with the printmaking community. That said, I am eager to get started because I do anticipate we will see improved performance, especially on media that have stable media white points. BTW, neither Epson Exhibition Fiber paper nor Epson Premium luster cited in the article as attaining 200+ year ratings have stable enough media white point properties to ever be rated that well by AaI&A, no matter how lightfast the UCHD inks turn out to be. It takes both very stable media and very stable inks and also excellent compatibility between both in order to truly deserve such breathtaking "years on display" ratings.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 10:16:32 am by MHMG »
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2015, 09:47:51 am »

I'm foggy over this - are you saying Epson uses dye in their pigments inks?

That is what I mean, the terms dye and pigment are used loosely, not only in this thread.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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MHMG

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Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2015, 10:06:02 am »

That is what I mean, the terms dye and pigment are used loosely, not only in this thread.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

Epson literature on the new HD set makes claims not only of improved Dmax, but also of significantly reduced albeit not completely eliminated bronzing accomplished by improvements in the resin encapsulation technology. Hence, from these published claims we can deduce that the UCHD set is indeed a pigmented ink set. Whether it's 100% pigment or a hybrid containing some stable dye components cannot be concluded (the actual light fading curves should provide some insight on this dye-pigment hybrid question), but at least one can say that the P600 is clearly not a dye-based inkjet printer like the Epson Photo Stylus 1430..  

kind regards,
Mark
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 10:12:17 am by MHMG »
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