Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Wayne Fox on March 03, 2015, 08:45:44 pm
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At the WPPI tradeshow, Epson had a "new" printer shrouded under a black cloth. The prints hanging above it were printed on it. They wouldn't spill any details, so other than the fact the printers form factor under the cloth is too large to be another 13" printer and the prints printed were both larger than can be printed on the new p600, it's speculation (and I assume that's what they want, otherwise why set up the little mystery display).
It appears a new revised 3880 or a new 17" printer with similar form factor using the new Ultrachrome HD inkset is coming sooner than later. Side by side prints from the p600 vs the 7900 to me appeared to demonstrate the claims of better black dMax as well as subtle other improvements. according to this article (http://blog.wppionline.com/2015/03/epson-p600-print-permanence/) epson release information from Wilhelm to demonstrate the new yellow dye has substantially improved longevity, although I didn't see or here this at the booth myself. I assume they wouldn't be bringing it up if they didn't feel it wasn't so.
Not big news although this is the first sign of inkset improvement from anyone in a few year. Everyone knew it was coming since all the stylus pros are scheduled to be replaced by 2016 with new printers using the new inks.
No clue when they will make it "official" but it seems after making a big deal out of it at WPPI it would be soon. If the new printer has roll feed like the p600, but larger ink cartridges and clog performance like the 3880 then perhaps it is a bigger deal because it becomes a great choice instead of the 4900. If it's just an upgraded 3880, then I still like the improvements in the inkset but I don't see people rushing to upgrade.
And then again, who knows it could be something totally different ...
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Hi Wayne,
That's interesting. My main interest in a new model would be something that prints as least as gorgeously as a 4900 but doesn't need the continuous baby-sitting to minimize clogging or ink drops.
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I am going to slip out of the studio and go over tomorrow. I'll check it out.
There is always something cool at the show.
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I looked at s600 output throughout the booth -it's outstanding.
So here's hoping for a 3880 replacement with roll feed :)
I am going to slip out of the studio and go over tomorrow. I'll check it out.
There is always something cool at the show.
Maybe someone will have pulled that black cover off by then ... I was tempted :)
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Maybe someone will have pulled that black cover off by then ... I was tempted :)
Being how Epson is, they probably anticipated that temptation and have it firmly anchored! :-)
And all this theater is just a tease to build-up anticipation so that people like you and me will start salivating. Great marketing.
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Thanks for the report.
I hope it has gloss optimizer and on the fly black ink change ability. The 3880 is one helluva machine in its day. Dye stability of Epson is very good as-is.
http://fadetesting.tumblr.com/
Although Canon does seem a little better with the yellows.
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Maybe someone will have pulled that black cover off by then ... I was tempted :)
I heard it was Schrödinger's printer under the black cloth! ;D
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Although Canon does seem a little better with the yellows.
check the data at Wilhelm or Aardenburg ... it's not just a little better.
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check the data at Wilhelm or Aardenburg ... it's not just a little better.
Do you mean quality of reproduction, longevity or both?
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Do you mean quality of reproduction, longevity or both?
What they test is longevity, and in that area Canon has a much better track record. Will be interesting to see how Epson's new ink set will do in this area. If you compare the color of the P600 with a 4900 you can see that there are parts were the addition of orange and green makes a difference. It will be interesting to see if Epson will add these colors to their professional printers. One of the advantage of the x900 printers is that they can reproduce almost all of the Pantone colors. If Epson don't add extra colors to their professional range they will lose this advantage.
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Here's a less than satisfactory gamut comparison of the P600 versus the x900 series. It's not stated what paper, but it looks like a glossy from the x900 hull. Not much difference in the shadows, but there are voids in the the P600 bright blues and greens and yellows that could seriously impact print brilliance on at least landscapes. I'd much rather have minimal gamut clipping in those areas than a little more D-max. Of course gamut graphs don't tell the whole story of a print as viewed, only a lot of it. It's possible the P600 gets higher marks for apparent saturation than for brilliance.
The red hull is the older x900 printer.
https://vimeo.com/114418716
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Boy I sure hope Epson adds:
1. A feature to reduce bronzing, which is terrible on the 9900 with Canon Platine and pretty harsh on most other color papers
2. Find a way to reduce gloss differential.
3. Allow the Matte and Photo black to live (I realize this is the case on some of the smaller printers)
The bronzing issue is by far the worst issue for me.
Paul
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Talking about dye or pigment inks for the Epson P600 and the new printer? For the p600 it is still not clear to me since the Photokina and this thread confuses me too.
The weak link in the Epson pigment inks has been the yellow. In case of dyes this thread is interesting: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=98298.0
I see 200 years according Wilhelm for the p600/Exhibition Fiber print framed behind glass. The ink may hit that but the paper white, Wilhelm is not really measuring that.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Talking about dye or pigment inks for the Epson P600 and the new printer? For the p600 it is still not clear to me since the Photokina and this thread confuses me too.
the p600 is Ultrachrome HD (not to be confused with UltraChrome HDR which is the inkset with orange and green)... pigment inks. Change in encapsulation of dyes which increased dMax and improved dyes in the yellow for fading.
I see 200 years according Wilhelm for the p600/Exhibition Fiber print framed behind glass.
I tried to find it on Wilhelm’s site ... what a joke. Was that UV glass or just glass? 7900 rating for EEF is 90 years under glass, 150 years with “UV Filter”.
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Wayne:
I would guess it would be "plain" glass, not UV. The reason for using glass is two fold, one to reduce UV induced fade, and two, to seal the print from atmospheric contaminates. In terms of filtering UV, UV glass is at most maybe 10-15% more effective than regular window glass. UV glass really is over-hyped in that regard, considering how much more it costs.
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I tried to find it on Wilhelm’s site ... what a joke. Was that UV glass or just glass? 7900 rating for EEF is 90 years under glass, 150 years with “UV Filter”.
Finding anything on Wilhelm's site is "no joke". A mess. Anyhow, best to see whether Aardenburg has results for the yellow issue. Can't check just now.
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Change in encapsulation of dyes which increased dMax and improved dyes in the yellow for fading.
I'm foggy over this - are you saying Epson uses dye in their pigments inks?
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according to this article (http://blog.wppionline.com/2015/03/epson-p600-print-permanence/) epson release information from Wilhelm to demonstrate the new yellow dye has substantially improved longevity, although I didn't see or here this at the booth myself. I assume they wouldn't be bringing it up if they didn't feel it wasn't so.
Although the >200 year estimates being reported in the cited trade show article do indeed suggest improved light fade resistance for the new UCHD pigment ink set compared to the current Epson K3VM or HDR pigment sets, it's hard to read much more into the results than that because the WIR endpoints are based on densitometric measurements with liberal amounts of change allowed at the testing endpoint (e.g. 35% pure yellow loss, 12-18 % color balance shifts, etc). Also, percent density losses are not visually linear nor does WIR publish the actual fading curves, hence it's impossible to say what the aged image appearance may look like in 25, 50, or 100 years let alone over 200 years. The progression of visual appearance change in the artwork over the course of time is the key to what should be of interest to serious printmakers and to the retention of the artist's original intent, not the fact that a print is claimed to last a century or more. Even lignin-filled acidic newsprint will easily last that long if one tolerates liberal amounts of media discoloration and paper embrittlement over time. In other words, any print made today on just about any media may still have some functional (i.e.,historic, artistic, or sentimental) value a century from now, but it won't necessarily have retained a pleasing appearance, and disconcerting changes may be unavoidable much sooner along the arch of time.
Another interesting fact is that a 200 year Wilhelm Display rating requires 400 megalux hours of light exposure. Even with very intense light fade testing units, it would take several months or more to rack up that level of exposure, indeed well over a year if more reasonable accelerated aging conditions are used to accumulate this dosage or come close enough so that further extrapolation to the anticipated endpoints can be made. Thus, we can conclude that the WIR testing of the P600 printer and inks was performed under contract to Epson and is based on samples made on prototype equipment and pre-production inks in order for any test results to be ready in time for product launch.
Unlike other testing labs, AaI&A only tests commercially available systems that anyone can buy. The P600 has only just recently reached store shelves in the US, so it's going to be a while before I will have any substantive test results to share with the printmaking community. That said, I am eager to get started because I do anticipate we will see improved performance, especially on media that have stable media white points. BTW, neither Epson Exhibition Fiber paper nor Epson Premium luster cited in the article as attaining 200+ year ratings have stable enough media white point properties to ever be rated that well by AaI&A, no matter how lightfast the UCHD inks turn out to be. It takes both very stable media and very stable inks and also excellent compatibility between both in order to truly deserve such breathtaking "years on display" ratings.
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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I'm foggy over this - are you saying Epson uses dye in their pigments inks?
That is what I mean, the terms dye and pigment are used loosely, not only in this thread.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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That is what I mean, the terms dye and pigment are used loosely, not only in this thread.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
Epson literature on the new HD set makes claims not only of improved Dmax, but also of significantly reduced albeit not completely eliminated bronzing accomplished by improvements in the resin encapsulation technology. Hence, from these published claims we can deduce that the UCHD set is indeed a pigmented ink set. Whether it's 100% pigment or a hybrid containing some stable dye components cannot be concluded (the actual light fading curves should provide some insight on this dye-pigment hybrid question), but at least one can say that the P600 is clearly not a dye-based inkjet printer like the Epson Photo Stylus 1430..
kind regards,
Mark
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Epson literature on the new HD set makes claims not only of improved Dmax, but also of significantly reduced albeit not completely eliminated bronzing accomplished by improvements in the resin encapsulation technology. Hence, from these published claims we can deduce that the UCHD set is indeed a pigmented ink set. Whether it's 100% pigment or a hybrid containing some stable dye components cannot be concluded (the actual light fading curves should provide some insight on this dye-pigment hybrid question)
Thanks Mark, you're always very insightful. Do the Epson UltraChrome HDR inks contain any stable dye components as far as you can tell from your light fading experiments? Or Canon's Lucia EX inks?
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Thanks Mark, you're always very insightful. Do the Epson UltraChrome HDR inks contain any stable dye components as far as you can tell from your light fading experiments? Or Canon's Lucia EX inks?
No, they appear to be full pigment, or something very close to it. Dyes like the Epson Claria yellow show significant non linearity of fade where they start off fading pretty rapidly but can then rather impressively slow down whereas pigments like UcK3 yellow tend to track rather linearly at the outset of the test and over a greater range of total accumulated exposure but then may eventually collapse such that additional fading continues at a more rapid rate. A hybrid dye-pigment ink often shows aspects of both behaviors. Think of the hybrid performance as a grafting of two different fading curves, one representing the behavior of the dye component while the other curve fashioned by the behavior of the pigment component and manifesting itself in the measurement more as the dye molecules fade out first. Thus, if a manufacturer claims, for example, a 100 year fade resistance based on an exposure dose needed to reach "easily noticeable" fade, a pigment ink will typically fade about halfway towards the allowable endpoint in 50 years under steady environmental conditions, whereas a stable synthetic dye like Claria yellow might get halfway there in just 15 years but then take another 85 years to fade the rest of the way towards the allowed fading endpoint. Single limit-factor lightfastness ratings based on very easily noticeable fade criteria are thus inherently problematic and can be particularly misleading for systems that show marked non linearity. Bottom line is simply that one can't describe a non linear curve function by plotting just one point on the curve.
To more fairly compare systems with potentially non linear performance and to make a more meaningful "fine art" criterion for allowable fade, AaI&A conservation display ratings are thus based on a tighter criterion of "little or no noticeable" fade where both linear and non linear systems still appear to be tracking reasonably linearly to that point and where the non linearity function starts to show up only as the system's fading performance is plotted beyond the rated endpoint. However, if a light fade test's failure criteria are loosened further to allow more easily noticeable and quite possibly objectionable levels of fade (e.g. the WIR rating method) then any system non linearity can have greater and greater impact and create a potentially misleading outcome. In fact, such non linearity in system response can also come from the media properties not just the ink properties. If you think about it, when you print with pigmented inks on media containing OBAs, you are using a dye-pigment hybrid system :)
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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I'm foggy over this - are you saying Epson uses dye in their pigments inks?
That is what I mean, the terms dye and pigment are used loosely, not only in this thread.
Point taken.
I am unclear how ink makers create their “pigment” inks. It could be they encapsulate dyes into resin carriers, thus turning the dye into a “pigment”. However it could be they use a true pigment colorant as opposed to a dye. I’ve always assumed the first case thus the reason I made the statement as I did, but I really don’t know.
So maybe better terminology might be ...(quoting myself here)
“Change in encapsulation of dyes colorant which increased dMax and improved dyes colorant in the yellow for fading.”
To be clear the new printer is a pigment printer, like previous Epson Stylus Pro printers.
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Although the >200 year estimates being reported in the cited trade show article do indeed suggest improved light fade resistance for the new UCHD pigment ink set compared to the current Epson K3VM or HDR pigment sets, it's hard to read much more into the results than that because the WIR endpoints are based on densitometric measurements with liberal amounts of change allowed at the testing endpoint (e.g. 35% pure yellow loss, 12-18 % color balance shifts, etc).
Good points. To me this means the only value of any Wilhelm testing are the tests are relative within their own context. How does paper and ink A compare to paper and ink B, and indeed this has been one of Epson’s issues in that Canon and HP tests show better performance.
So I believe in this regard the new Epson compares more favorably against competitors, and demonstrates a strong improvement over previous generation. To extrapolate more than that really is a pointless effort.
Do you have any p600 tests in the works?
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Do you have any p600 tests in the works?
Not as far along as I'd like them to be. The status of the UltraChrome HD ink/P600 printer project is posted and being updated regularly on the AaI&A homepage: http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
best,
Mark
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Hi Wayne,
That's interesting. My main interest in a new model would be something that prints as least as gorgeously as a 4900 but doesn't need the continuous baby-sitting to minimize clogging or ink drops.
This
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What Mark just said about the fact that if you are using papers with brightening dyes incorporated into them, then you are essentially making dye hybrid prints is a good way of putting it.
And that is one of the critical differences between WIR rating system and AI. Aardenburg shows this distortion in a clear and linear way over time.
For Wilhelm to be giving these absurd stability figures for junk media like Epson (signature worthy) "Exhibition" Fiber, or HP Pro Satin rc, that are both full of low grade uv brighteners that will glow under black light if you test them, puts into question all of his tests in my opinion. It just becomes an inaccurate and distorted marketing tool for the paper manufactures that sponsor the data.
What he does do is include a tiny little footnote at the end of the test, where he describes the testing method, telling us to avoid papers with oba. But nobody reads that micro type, and even if they do they are at a loss to know just how those brighteners are effecting the outcome of the colorants in any objective way over time and with what inkset. In that way Wilhelm is just contributing to the ignorance about the media in question. It is a strange kind of scientific method.
In the case of the above mentioned papers, and many more commonly used papers, regardless of pigments used, all the high values of a print are are quickly being altered. You have three properties of color, which are HUE, INTENSITY, and VAUE. All three properties are being degraded by dye brighteners. Just like in the type C era, a whole generation of color photography will be degrading because of poorly made papers and lied to about their stability.
A gallery just asked me why I don't use the description "archival inkjet print" for exhibition. The answer is because it has no meaning, and neither do a lot of these WR accelerated tests.
john
However, if a light fade test's failure criteria are loosened further to allow more easily noticeable and quite possibly objectionable levels of fade (e.g. the WIR rating method) then any system non linearity can have greater and greater impact and create a potentially misleading outcome. In fact, such non linearity in system response can also come from the media properties not just the ink properties. If you think about it, when you print on media containing OBAs, you are using a dye-pigment hybrid system :)
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
[/quote]
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Good points. To me this means the only value of any Wilhelm testing are the tests are relative within their own context. How does paper and ink A compare to paper and ink B, and indeed this has been one of Epson’s issues in that Canon and HP tests show better performance.
Yes, comparing the relative scores of printer/ink/media A to printer/ink/media B is how the WIR ratings should be considered and "absolute life times" should be completely ignored, but due to the WIR fading criteria set used to parse the scores, misranking of various media happens fairly frequently in the WIR published findings. For example, Epson K3 ink printed on Exhibition fiber paper (with very high OBA content) gets a 90 year WIR rating while Canson Platine and HN Photo Rag Pearl get 53 year and 64 year ratings respectively. Thus according to WIR, Epson exhibition fiber paper is hands down the winner by a significant margin. That would be a very wrong conclusion for discerning print makers.
The issue for high end printmaking is that EEF's OBA burnout is propping up the yellow patch density measurements throughout the course of the testing while the unreported media white patch is becoming disconcertingly yellow and destroying the EEFs initial "cool white" paper appearance. Any important delicate highlights and even midtones in the image will get shifted along with the shifting media color. To be clear, WIR does also have a limit factor specification for paper white stability, but it harkens back to the troubled silver halide era with notorious color paper staining problems that begged for a more forgiving consumer rating such that this limit factor is set too loose to track easily noticeable media discoloration problems. The discoloration has to become really really noticeable before the WIR limit factor flags the test endpoint for media discoloration issues, and that opens the door for a lot of misranked inkjet media longevity ratings for today's fine art printmaking market.
To be fair, what the longstanding industry-sponsored WIR test methodology has gotten right is to demonstrate the general light fastness strengths and weaknesses of the major OEM pigmented ink sets, and with Epson in third place behind HP and Canon for the last several years, we probably have WIR and perhaps AaI&A published tests to thank for keeping some pressure on the manufacturers not to become too complacent. I also see some signs that the media white point stability issues are also getting more and more industry attention.
cheers,
Mark
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It appears a new revised 3880 or a new 17" printer with similar form factor using the new Ultrachrome HD inkset is coming sooner than later. Side by side prints from the p600 vs the 7900 to me appeared to demonstrate the claims of better black dMax as well as subtle other improvements. according to this article (http://blog.wppionline.com/2015/03/epson-p600-print-permanence/) epson release information from Wilhelm to demonstrate the new yellow dye has substantially improved longevity, although I didn't see or here this at the booth myself. I assume they wouldn't be bringing it up if they didn't feel it wasn't so.
As someone sitting on the fence watching the current $300 rebate on the 3880 tick away, this interests me greatly. I'm not sure I would print rolls as I currently cut from larger rolls than 17". But having the option would be nice. I also like the 129" print limit on the P600 rather than the 37.7" limit on the 3880, even though I would rarely print larger. Add new inks and a new printhead and it makes a compelling upgrade. The 3880 is a great printer and at the $850 mark with $450 worth of ink included is a real bargain, but it is still a 6 year old printer.
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If put all Mark's commentary together in a book we would have a terrific reference on inks in one place. :)
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If put all Mark's commentary together in a book we would have a terrific reference on inks in one place. :)
^word.
Thank you Mark for the exquisitely crafted reply. I've long suspected that a story I've been told of one of Epson's inks contain dye ink was a lie. I applied common sense to reason it but yours in a refined scientific method!
If you ever do write a book (please do) I will definitely pre-order it. Several copies perhaps!
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^word.
If you ever do write a book (please do) I will definitely pre-order it. Several copies perhaps!
Thank you. I have actually been thinking about publishing a book lately. Seems I have the time to do it now that my career has entered semi-retirement phase and verging on full retirement. Lots of fertile ground, including care and preservation of digital and traditional prints, digital asset management principles and practice, Ansel Adam's zone system revisited in colorimetric rather than densitometric terms, color management explained on basic fundamentals rather than "do this, do that" recipes, tone and color reproduction concepts for photographers etc. etc.
cheers,
Mark
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Thank you. I have actually been thinking about publishing a book lately. Seems I have the time to do it now that my career has entered semi-retirement phase and verging on full retirement. Lots of fertile ground, including care and preservation of digital and traditional prints, digital asset management principles and practice, Ansel Adam's zone system revisited in colorimetric rather than densitometric terms, color management explained on basic fundamentals rather than "do this, do that" recipes, tone and color reproduction concepts for photographers etc. etc.
cheers,
Mark
Dang, where can I sign up for a copy of that book! Get busy!
Rand
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Dang, where can I sign up for a copy of that book! Get busy!
Rand
Ok, you guys have got me started :) I just thought of a title. The book could probably be called "Images with Enduring Value". However, I suspect the buyers for the first edition would probably be a pathetically small group, so maybe I could just print and assemble hand-bound first edition copies using an Epson P600 printer or the new one under wraps at the WPPI trade show ;D
best,
Mark
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Sign-me up for a copy in whatever format. :-) and good luck doing it - I know from experience. Repeated self-questioning and perseverance are the "names of the game", but the end result is satisfaction having made a useful contribution to the community. It is a retirement project - one never gets rich on this stuff, apart from the satisfaction of the accomplishment and appreciation from readers whatever the size of the eventual audience, doesn't matter. That said, the interest could be broader than you may think.
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I'm sold. I want it in whatever format it comes in too! All the best Mark, we are all cheering for you.
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Ok, you guys have got me started :) I just thought of a title. The book could probably be called "Images with Enduring Value". However, I suspect the buyers for the first edition would probably be a pathetically small group, so maybe I could just print and assemble hand-bound first edition copies using an Epson P600 printer or the new one under wraps at the WPPI trade show ;D
best,
Mark
Get a Kickstarter Campaign going. I'm sure that there would be a lot of contributors from LuLa. I'll certainly 'kick' some money in for this! (I just helped fund a Zombie Movie that my neighbor's son wrote & directed via Kickstarter. It's supposed to be coming out this spring sometime).
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Point taken.
I am unclear how ink makers create their “pigment” inks. It could be they encapsulate dyes into resin carriers, thus turning the dye into a “pigment”. However it could be they use a true pigment colorant as opposed to a dye. I’ve always assumed the first case thus the reason I made the statement as I did, but I really don’t know.
So maybe better terminology might be ...(quoting myself here)
“Change in encapsulation of dyes colorant which increased dMax and improved dyes colorant in the yellow for fading.”
I don't know how much of the ink technology is covered by patent vs. trade secret. I assume the former as it would be pretty easy for someone to analyze the inks if they have the right equipment. Unfortunately, I'm too far removed from the chemistry lab to try to do this but I'll scout around the patent literature to see what I can find. All the patents that are listed on the website and boxes of ink are for the cartridge technology and not the ink itself.
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Get a Kickstarter Campaign going. I'm sure that there would be a lot of contributors from LuLa. I'll certainly 'kick' some money in for this! (I just helped fund a Zombie Movie that my neighbor's son wrote & directed via Kickstarter. It's supposed to be coming out this spring sometime).
Excellent idea. I would support it too.
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Excellent idea. I would support it too.
Another vote for the Kickstarter campaign!
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Not as far along as I'd like them to be. The status of the UltraChrome HD ink/P600 printer project is posted and being updated regularly on the AaI&A homepage: http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
best,
Mark
We are getting close :-) Let's hope that you will get the rest soon.
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Here's a less than satisfactory gamut comparison of the P600 versus the x900 series. It's not stated what paper, but it looks like a glossy from the x900 hull. Not much difference in the shadows, but there are voids in the the P600 bright blues and greens and yellows that could seriously impact print brilliance on at least landscapes. I'd much rather have minimal gamut clipping in those areas than a little more D-max. Of course gamut graphs don't tell the whole story of a print as viewed, only a lot of it. It's possible the P600 gets higher marks for apparent saturation than for brilliance.
The red hull is the older x900 printer.
https://vimeo.com/114418716
I'm the one who made that test and it was made on Epson premium Semigloss. Both were profiles that I made with i1Profiler. The increase in black is easy to see even without a spectrophotometer. It's harder to spot the decrease in gamut on most prints.
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I'm the one who made that test and it was made on Epson premium Semigloss. Both were profiles that I made with i1Profiler. The increase in black is easy to see even without a spectrophotometer. It's harder to spot the decrease in gamut on most prints.
Stefan, fine, "harder to spot the decrease in gamut on most prints", but does the decreased gamut have any impact on the overall richness of colour reproduction? And, not a question for you, but in principle for Epson, why should Epson produce a new model professional printer that has less gamut than a model now four years old or more? I don't get it. If Epson needs to know, what I'm looking for is incremental progress where it matters, not regress. So I would like to see preserved the gamut of the 4900, the very little scope left for improvement of DMax achieved and most important of all - freedom from ink flow problems, whatever the cause. That is my challenge to them. Anyhow, let us see what emerges from under the wrappers, and then how it fares over a period of six months or so of testing when its long-term expected performance reliability under a range of usage conditions can be thoroughly evaluated.
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Stefan, fine, "harder to spot the decrease in gamut on most prints", but does the decreased gamut have any impact on the overall richness of colour reproduction? And, not a question for you, but in principle for Epson, why should Epson produce a new model professional printer that has less gamut than a model now four years old or more? I don't get it. If Epson needs to know, what I'm looking for is incremental progress where it matters, not regress. So I would like to see preserved the gamut of the 4900, the very little scope left for improvement of DMax achieved and most important of all - freedom from ink flow problems, whatever the cause.
The improvement in much less clogging is very easy to see. During the 4 months that I have used the printer I've only spotted one problem with clogging. It took only one cleaning to solve that problem. And the printer has been placed in a very dry room, with a humidity level of around 20 %. The improvement in D-Max is important for me when I proof on a uncoated paper. Some of the presses today can achieve a better D-Max than it is possible to do on today's ink jet printers on uncoated paper.
But I do agree that it is important to have a large gamut. When I compare the profiles against the Pantone colors I can see that the 4900 can print more of the Pantone colors than the P600. So I hope that the replacement to the x900-printers will have more colors than the P600.
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Thanks Stefan. Encouraging on the clogging front.
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And, not a question for you, but in principle for Epson, why should Epson produce a new model professional printer that has less gamut than a model now four years old or more? I don't get it. If Epson needs to know, what I'm looking for is incremental progress where it matters, not regress. So I would like to see preserved the gamut of the 4900...
Well, I won't be able to answer this question definitively until we can run some independent confirming tests on the new HD ink set where we can actually publish the fading curves, but assuming the lofty Wilhelm ratings reported in the WPPI article are indicative of a greatly improved yellow pigment lightfastness, it's very likely that Epson chemists had to switch to a different yellow pigment to accomplish that feat. It probably wasn't enough just to tinker with resin encapsulation properties alone. It's a well known and longstanding fact that more stable pigments and dyes tend to be less colorful, so there is nearly always an engineering trade-off between light fastness and color gamut. In fact if the more colorful dyes had more light fastness, I doubt any manufacturer would be producing pigment printers for the home and fine art photography market. Those pigment printers would be allocated only to applications in outdoor signage.
Moving to a more stable but somewhat less vivid and/or slightly hue-shifted yellow thus means somewhat compromised reds. greens, and blues reproduction (they need yellow in the blend to make those colors). This is what the slightly reduced gamut of the HD versus K3VM ink sets is hinting at. Recall the first Epson desktop pigmented ink printer (the Photo Stylus 2000). It had a very stable yellow pigment, much more so than Ultrachrome K3 yellow, but combined with a "dirtier" magenta in that ink set and no photo grays, and we had a printer with horrible color constancy problems and pretty compromised color gamut. I personally bought one and made only a few prints before abandoning it as totally unsatisfactory. I could make a perfectly gray balanced print under 5000K high CRI lighting, walk the print into a gallery under 3200K lamps where the color balance would look implausibly reddish, then carry the print over to a window with overcast cool daylight illumination and the print would turn a sickly cyan-green in color balance. Obviously Epson engineers got the message from customer feedback, and improvements were then made, but the next generation of inks erred too far towards a vivid yellow pigment selected for color constancy and colorfulness. That opened the door for Canon and HP to deliver pigmented ink sets that struck a different balance (better or worse depending on who you ask) between color gamut and longevity, also ushering in era of 12 color sets that add red, orange,violet, and/or green inks in various ways to extend what the cyan, magenta, and yellow inks can do for blue, green, and red reproduction.
IHMO, Epson probably should have introduced a different yellow when the X900 series HDR ink set was introduced, but the public at the time was largely unaware of the K3 yellow pigment stabilty weaknesses, so "if it ain't broke" in the minds of the consumer, there's little incentive to change. Now that it's more common knowledge that the older Epson K3VM and HDR ink sets lag significantly behind recent Canon and HP pigment sets in lightfastness, there was indeed more incentive for Epson to make further improvements, and it seems promising that Epson may have achieved it. It's just the way the world works :) I do anticipate that the HDR set with it's extended color gamut using orange and green inks will get an update as well and we will see that new generation of HDR type printers soon, perhaps next year. I think at that point, Epson may once again be leading rather than following, and Canon may then have to respond. I doubt anyone will top the current HP Vivera pigment stability, but if the other companies meet or come close, that would be great.
Meanwhile, the color gamut of the P600 HD ink set should be more than adequate for it's intended market. Improved black levels are indeed part of the total color gamut though few people think of greater tonal range that way, and it is actually more critical to the vast majority of images how accurately and pleasingly the low to moderate chroma colors are being reproduced. For example, get the skin tones of the bride and the neutral tonal gradients in the wedding dress right, and the fact that the red roses she's holding are vivid red but not as super vivid red as in the digital image on the monitor, and the print will still be perceived by the viewer as a beautiful print :) Now, if the print just stays that way over time, all the better ;D
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Meanwhile, the color gamut of the P600 HD ink set should be more than adequate for it's intended market. Improved black levels are indeed part of the total color gamut though few people think of greater tonal range that way, and it is actually more critical to the vast majority of images how accurately and pleasingly the low to moderate chroma colors are being reproduced. For example, get the skin tones of the bride and the neutral tonal gradients in the wedding dress right, and the fact that the red roses she's holding are vivid red but not as super vivid red as in the digital image on the monitor, and the print will still be perceived by the viewer as a beautiful print :) Now, if the print just stays that way over time, all the better ;D
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
The B&W prints made with the Photo Stylus Epson 2000 were very special. I have some left that I show when I try to explain the concept of metameric failure.
What has impressed most people when I show them prints made on the new P600 are the blacks, especially on matte papers. Even with prints with saturated colors, no one has reacted to the smaller gamut when I show them prints made both on the P600 and the 4900. I think that the addition of more colors is important when you use it as a proof printer, especially if you have Pantone colors. But that is a very special market, important for Epson, but not so much for fine art printers.
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Looks like the new printer will finally be revealed soon ....
http://2015.palmspringsphotofestival.com/project/epson/
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Probably not a good idea to post this on April Fool's day, although it's probably legit. Or is it??
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The B&W prints made with the Photo Stylus Epson 2000 were very special. I have some left that I show when I try to explain the concept of metameric failure.
What an awful printer experience. Had (beta tested) it, B&W was a sick joke. And then there was the gray balance software, ugh. Epson has come a very long way since that printer. I absolutely love my 3880, whatever is released, I don't think I'll be that upset.
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Legit link from a trusted person, who I just happened to email today about info and this is the link he sent back. So April 1 is a coincidence.
Follow the link ... looks pretty legit.
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What an awful printer experience. Had (beta tested) it, B&W was a sick joke. And then there was the gray balance software, ugh. Epson has come a very long way since that printer. I absolutely love my 3880, whatever is released, I don't think I'll be that upset.
It's perhaps worth remembering that in its day the 2000P was a breakthrough printer. It was the first archival pigment inkjet printer in a 17" desktop format to ever be produced. In 15 short years the technology has matured to an extent that it can only get better by small amounts at a time, but each increment has made a difference and I expect will continue to do so.
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Looks like the new printer will finally be revealed soon ....
http://2015.palmspringsphotofestival.com/project/epson/
Aren't they talking about the Epson Surecolor P600 which is already shipping?
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It's perhaps worth remembering that in its day the 2000P was a breakthrough printer. It was the first archival pigment inkjet printer in a 17" desktop format to ever be produced. In 15 short years the technology has matured to an extent that it can only get better by small amounts at a time, but each increment has made a difference and I expect will continue to do so.
True and it only sucked bad for B&W. We have seen a lot in 15 years but the pace of progress, in all nature of digital imaging seems to me to have stalled considerably from those days.
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Aren't they talking about the Epson Surecolor P600 which is already shipping?
No, but I can say no more than that.... ::)
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True and it only sucked bad for B&W. We have seen a lot in 15 years but the pace of progress, in all nature of digital imaging seems to me to have stalled considerably from those days.
Not sure "stalled" is a good way of describing it. I would rather suggest it has "matured", and you reach a certain point of maturity with most technologies that the improvement curve flattens until the next big breakthrough. There just isn't that much further it can go in its present technical context. So I would look upon that as a recognition of a truly successful technological revolution.
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Aren't they talking about the Epson Surecolor P600 which is already shipping?
Pretty sure they're gonna take the wraps off the printer under the black shroud that started this thread, which appears to be a 3880 size printer. Certainly could be more than that, it's not a secret that all the pro printers will eventually move to the new inks.
No, but I can say no more than that.... ::)
I'm jealous ;D
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No, but I can say no more than that.... ::)
very interesting answer