Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: New Printer coming from Epson  (Read 17702 times)

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2015, 10:27:59 am »

Epson literature on the new HD set makes claims not only of improved Dmax, but also of significantly reduced albeit not completely eliminated bronzing accomplished by improvements in the resin encapsulation technology. Hence, from these published claims we can deduce that the UCHD set is indeed a pigmented ink set. Whether it's 100% pigment or a hybrid containing some stable dye components cannot be concluded (the actual light fading curves should provide some insight on this dye-pigment hybrid question)

Thanks Mark, you're always very insightful. Do the Epson UltraChrome HDR inks contain any stable dye components as far as you can tell from your light fading experiments? Or Canon's Lucia EX inks?
Logged

MHMG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1285
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2015, 12:00:26 pm »

Thanks Mark, you're always very insightful. Do the Epson UltraChrome HDR inks contain any stable dye components as far as you can tell from your light fading experiments? Or Canon's Lucia EX inks?

No, they appear to be full pigment, or something very close to it.  Dyes like the Epson Claria yellow show significant non linearity of fade where they start off fading pretty rapidly but can then rather impressively slow down whereas pigments like UcK3 yellow tend to track rather linearly at the outset of the test and over a greater range of total accumulated exposure but then may eventually collapse such that additional fading continues at a more rapid rate.  A hybrid dye-pigment ink often shows aspects of both behaviors. Think of the hybrid performance as a grafting of two different fading curves, one representing the behavior of the dye component while the other curve fashioned by the behavior of the pigment component and manifesting itself in the measurement more as the dye molecules fade out first.  Thus, if a manufacturer claims, for example, a 100 year fade resistance based on an exposure dose needed to reach "easily noticeable" fade, a pigment ink will typically fade about halfway towards the allowable endpoint in 50 years under steady environmental conditions, whereas a stable synthetic dye like Claria yellow might get halfway there in just 15 years but then take another 85 years to fade the rest of the way towards the allowed fading endpoint.  Single limit-factor lightfastness ratings based on very easily noticeable fade criteria are thus inherently problematic and can be particularly misleading for systems that show marked non linearity. Bottom line is simply that one can't describe a non linear curve function by plotting just one point on the curve.

To more fairly compare systems with potentially non linear performance and to make a more meaningful "fine art" criterion for allowable fade, AaI&A conservation display ratings are thus based on a tighter criterion of "little or no noticeable" fade where both linear and non linear systems still appear to be tracking reasonably linearly to that point and where the non linearity function starts to show up only as the system's fading performance is plotted beyond the rated endpoint.  However, if a light fade test's failure criteria are loosened further to allow more easily noticeable and quite possibly objectionable levels of fade (e.g. the WIR rating method) then any system non linearity can have greater and greater impact and create a potentially misleading outcome. In fact, such non linearity in system response can also come from the media properties not just the ink properties. If you think about it, when you print with pigmented inks on media containing OBAs, you are using a dye-pigment hybrid system :)

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 11:41:03 pm by MHMG »
Logged

Wayne Fox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4237
    • waynefox.com
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2015, 01:10:18 pm »

I'm foggy over this - are you saying Epson uses dye in their pigments inks?
That is what I mean, the terms dye and pigment are used loosely, not only in this thread.

Point taken.

I am unclear how ink makers create their “pigment” inks.  It could be they encapsulate dyes into resin carriers, thus turning the dye into a “pigment”.  However it could be they use a true pigment colorant as opposed to a dye.  I’ve always assumed the first case thus the reason I made the statement as I did,  but I really don’t know.

So  maybe better terminology might be ...(quoting myself here)

 “Change in encapsulation of dyes colorant which increased dMax and improved dyes colorant in the yellow for fading.”

To be clear the new printer is a pigment printer, like previous Epson Stylus Pro printers.
Logged

Wayne Fox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4237
    • waynefox.com
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2015, 01:20:12 pm »

Although the >200 year estimates being reported in the cited trade show article do indeed suggest improved light fade resistance for the new UCHD pigment ink set compared to the current Epson K3VM or HDR pigment sets, it's hard to read much more into the results than that because the WIR endpoints are based on densitometric measurements with liberal amounts of change allowed at the testing endpoint (e.g. 35% pure yellow loss, 12-18 % color balance shifts, etc).
Good points.  To me this means the only value of any Wilhelm testing are the tests are relative within their own context.  How does paper and ink A compare to paper and ink B, and indeed this has been one of Epson’s issues in that Canon and HP tests show better performance.

So I believe in this regard the new Epson compares more favorably against competitors, and demonstrates a strong improvement over previous generation. To extrapolate more than that really is a pointless effort.

Do you have any p600 tests in the works?
Logged

MHMG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1285
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2015, 01:36:43 pm »


Do you have any p600 tests in the works?

Not as far along as I'd like them to be.  The status of the UltraChrome HD ink/P600 printer project is posted and being updated regularly on the AaI&A homepage: http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

best,
Mark
Logged

John Caldwell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 704
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2015, 01:42:50 pm »

Hi Wayne,

That's interesting. My main interest in a new model would be something that prints as least as gorgeously as a 4900 but doesn't need the continuous baby-sitting to minimize clogging or ink drops.

This
Logged

deanwork

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2015, 02:13:33 pm »

What Mark just said about the fact that if you are using papers with brightening dyes incorporated into them, then you are essentially making dye hybrid  prints is a good way of putting it.

And that is one of  the critical differences between WIR rating system and AI. Aardenburg shows this distortion in a clear and linear way over time.

For Wilhelm to be giving these absurd stability figures for junk media like Epson (signature worthy) "Exhibition" Fiber, or HP Pro Satin rc, that are both full of low grade uv brighteners that will glow under black light if you test them, puts into question all of his tests in my opinion. It just becomes an inaccurate  and distorted marketing tool for the paper manufactures that sponsor the data.

What he does do is include a tiny little footnote at the end of the test, where he describes the testing method, telling us to avoid papers with oba. But nobody reads that micro type, and even if they do they are at a loss to know just how those brighteners are effecting the outcome of the colorants in any objective way over time and with what inkset. In that way Wilhelm is just contributing to the ignorance about the media in question. It is a strange kind of scientific method.

In the case of the above mentioned papers, and many more commonly used papers, regardless of pigments used, all the high values of a print are are quickly being altered. You have three properties of color, which are HUE, INTENSITY, and VAUE. All three properties are being degraded by dye brighteners. Just like in the type C era, a whole generation of color photography will be degrading because of poorly made papers and lied to about their stability.

A gallery just asked me why I don't use the description "archival inkjet print" for exhibition. The answer is because it has no meaning, and neither do a lot of these WR accelerated tests.

john









 However, if a light fade test's failure criteria are loosened further to allow more easily noticeable and quite possibly objectionable levels of fade (e.g. the WIR rating method) then any system non linearity can have greater and greater impact and create a potentially misleading outcome. In fact, such non linearity in system response can also come from the media properties not just the ink properties. If you think about it, when you print on media containing OBAs, you are using a dye-pigment hybrid system :)

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
[/quote]
Logged

MHMG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1285
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2015, 02:52:27 pm »

Good points.  To me this means the only value of any Wilhelm testing are the tests are relative within their own context.  How does paper and ink A compare to paper and ink B, and indeed this has been one of Epson’s issues in that Canon and HP tests show better performance.


Yes, comparing the relative scores of printer/ink/media A to printer/ink/media B is how the WIR ratings should be considered and "absolute life times" should be completely ignored, but due to the WIR fading criteria set used to parse the scores, misranking of various media happens fairly frequently in the WIR published findings. For example, Epson K3 ink printed on Exhibition fiber paper (with very high OBA content) gets a 90 year WIR rating while Canson Platine and HN Photo Rag Pearl get 53 year and 64 year ratings respectively. Thus according to WIR, Epson exhibition fiber paper is hands down the winner by a significant margin. That would be a very wrong conclusion for discerning print makers.

The issue for high end printmaking is that EEF's OBA burnout is propping up the yellow patch density measurements throughout the course of the testing while the unreported media white patch is becoming disconcertingly yellow and destroying the EEFs initial "cool white" paper appearance. Any important delicate highlights and even midtones in the image will get shifted along with the shifting media color.  To be clear, WIR does also have a limit factor specification for paper white stability, but it harkens back to the troubled silver halide era with notorious color paper staining problems that begged for a more forgiving consumer rating such that this limit factor is set too loose to track easily noticeable media discoloration problems. The discoloration has to become really really noticeable before the WIR limit factor flags the test endpoint for media discoloration issues, and that opens the door for a lot of misranked inkjet media longevity ratings for today's fine art printmaking market.

To be fair, what the longstanding industry-sponsored WIR test methodology has gotten right is to demonstrate the general light fastness strengths and weaknesses of the major OEM pigmented ink sets, and with Epson in third place behind HP and Canon for the last several years, we probably have WIR and perhaps AaI&A published tests to thank for keeping some pressure on the manufacturers not to become too complacent. I also see some signs that the media white point stability issues are also getting more and more industry attention.

cheers,
Mark
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 03:12:43 pm by MHMG »
Logged

dwswager

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1375
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2015, 03:30:13 pm »

It appears a new revised 3880 or a new 17" printer with similar form factor  using the new Ultrachrome HD inkset is coming sooner than later.  Side by side prints from the p600 vs the 7900 to me appeared to demonstrate the claims of better black dMax as well as subtle other improvements.  according to this article epson release information from Wilhelm to demonstrate the new yellow dye has substantially improved longevity, although I didn't see or here this at the booth myself.  I assume they wouldn't be bringing it up if they didn't feel it wasn't so.

As someone sitting on the fence watching the current $300 rebate on the 3880 tick away, this interests me greatly.  I'm not sure I would print rolls as I currently cut from larger rolls than 17".  But having the option would be nice.  I also like the 129" print limit on the P600 rather than the 37.7" limit on the 3880, even though I would rarely print larger.  Add new inks and a new printhead and it makes a compelling upgrade. The 3880 is a great printer and at the $850 mark with $450 worth of ink included is a real bargain, but it is still a 6 year old printer.
Logged

enduser

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 610
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2015, 07:05:23 pm »

If put all Mark's commentary together in a book we would have a terrific reference on inks in one place. :)
Logged

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2015, 08:39:08 pm »

If put all Mark's commentary together in a book we would have a terrific reference on inks in one place. :)

^word.

Thank you Mark for the exquisitely crafted reply. I've long suspected that a story I've been told of one of Epson's inks contain dye ink was a lie. I applied common sense to reason it but yours in a refined scientific method!

If you ever do write a book (please do) I will definitely pre-order it. Several copies perhaps!
Logged

MHMG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1285
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2015, 10:41:50 pm »

^word.

If you ever do write a book (please do) I will definitely pre-order it. Several copies perhaps!

Thank you. I have actually been thinking about publishing a book lately.  Seems I have the time to do it now that my career has entered semi-retirement phase and verging on full retirement.  Lots of fertile ground, including care and preservation of digital and traditional prints, digital asset management principles and practice, Ansel Adam's zone system revisited in colorimetric rather than densitometric terms, color management explained on basic fundamentals rather than "do this, do that" recipes, tone and color reproduction concepts for photographers etc. etc.

cheers,
Mark
Logged

Rand47

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1882
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2015, 10:58:43 pm »

Thank you. I have actually been thinking about publishing a book lately.  Seems I have the time to do it now that my career has entered semi-retirement phase and verging on full retirement.  Lots of fertile ground, including care and preservation of digital and traditional prints, digital asset management principles and practice, Ansel Adam's zone system revisited in colorimetric rather than densitometric terms, color management explained on basic fundamentals rather than "do this, do that" recipes, tone and color reproduction concepts for photographers etc. etc.

cheers,
Mark

Dang, where can I sign up for a copy of that book!  Get busy!

Rand
Logged
Rand Scott Adams

MHMG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1285
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2015, 11:21:04 pm »

Dang, where can I sign up for a copy of that book!  Get busy!

Rand

Ok, you guys have got me started :) I just thought of a title. The book could probably be called "Images with Enduring Value".  However, I suspect the buyers for the first edition would probably be a pathetically small group, so maybe I could just print and assemble hand-bound first edition copies using an Epson P600 printer or the new one under wraps at the WPPI trade show ;D

best,
Mark
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 11:27:25 pm by MHMG »
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2015, 06:40:17 am »

Sign-me up for a copy in whatever format. :-) and good luck doing it - I know from experience. Repeated self-questioning and perseverance are the "names of the game", but the end result is satisfaction having made a useful contribution to the community. It is a retirement project - one never gets rich on this stuff, apart from the satisfaction of the accomplishment and appreciation from readers whatever the size of the eventual audience, doesn't matter. That said, the interest could be broader than you may think.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2015, 07:29:13 am »

I'm sold. I want it in whatever format it comes in too! All the best Mark, we are all cheering for you.
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2015, 07:34:35 am »

Ok, you guys have got me started :) I just thought of a title. The book could probably be called "Images with Enduring Value".  However, I suspect the buyers for the first edition would probably be a pathetically small group, so maybe I could just print and assemble hand-bound first edition copies using an Epson P600 printer or the new one under wraps at the WPPI trade show ;D

best,
Mark
Get a Kickstarter Campaign going.  I'm sure that there would be a lot of contributors from LuLa.  I'll certainly 'kick' some money in for this!  (I just helped fund a Zombie Movie that my neighbor's son wrote & directed via Kickstarter.  It's supposed to be coming out this spring sometime). 
Logged

Alan Goldhammer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4344
    • A Goldhammer Photography
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2015, 07:37:16 am »

Point taken.

I am unclear how ink makers create their “pigment” inks.  It could be they encapsulate dyes into resin carriers, thus turning the dye into a “pigment”.  However it could be they use a true pigment colorant as opposed to a dye.  I’ve always assumed the first case thus the reason I made the statement as I did,  but I really don’t know.

So  maybe better terminology might be ...(quoting myself here)

 “Change in encapsulation of dyes colorant which increased dMax and improved dyes colorant in the yellow for fading.”

I don't know how much of the ink technology is covered by patent vs. trade secret.  I assume the former as it would be pretty easy for someone to analyze the inks if they have the right equipment.  Unfortunately, I'm too far removed from the chemistry lab to try to do this but I'll scout around the patent literature to see what I can find.  All the patents that are listed on the website and boxes of ink are for the cartridge technology and not the ink itself.
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12512
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2015, 07:54:20 am »

Get a Kickstarter Campaign going.  I'm sure that there would be a lot of contributors from LuLa.  I'll certainly 'kick' some money in for this!  (I just helped fund a Zombie Movie that my neighbor's son wrote & directed via Kickstarter.  It's supposed to be coming out this spring sometime). 

Excellent idea. I would support it too.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

Eric Myrvaagnes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22814
  • http://myrvaagnes.com
    • http://myrvaagnes.com
Re: New Printer coming from Epson
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2015, 10:10:37 am »

Excellent idea. I would support it too.
Another vote for the Kickstarter campaign!
Logged
-Eric Myrvaagnes (visit my website: http://myrvaagnes.com)
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up