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Author Topic: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?  (Read 24709 times)

axelbadde

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45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« on: February 11, 2015, 08:31:47 am »

Hi i was wondering if anyone has got any thoughts on this subject. The nikkor 45mm pc is a newer lens, seems sharper then the canon but havenít found any comparisons.
but its a lot more expensive, especially if you look to the 2:nd hand market.
Since i have a a7r i can choose whichever and Iím looking for the sharpest one, but the 2nd hand price is the double.
Anyone had any real experience comparing these two?

I have the both the canon 17 and 24 mrkll and the olympos zuiko 35mm shift. Just looking for a sharp longer focal length 

Best,

Axel
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shadowblade

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2015, 09:08:20 am »

The Canon TS-E 45 and 90 are badly in need of updates.

That said, you can use the Nikon versions on Canon via an adapter, but not vice versa.
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manfred1

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2015, 09:35:35 am »

Hi,

>That said, you can use the Nikon versions on Canon via an adapter, but not vice versa.

which adapter would you recommend?

Manfred
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dwswager

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2015, 09:48:30 am »

I'm a Nikon shooter and have resisted biting on the T/S lenses from Nikon because the tilts and shifts do not operate in the same direction.  You can have the lens modified to work the way they should.  This is one area where Canon lenses trump Nikon, even though the Canons are longer in the tooth.

You can technically put Canon lenses on a Nikon body.  The reason it isn't done regularly is that the lens flange to sensor distance on the Nikon.  When you put a Canon Lens onto a Nikon body it basically gives the lens a few millimeters of extension so the lens, depending on how it was designed, probably won't focus at infinity.  But it will focus somewhat closer than on a Canon body.  I tend rarely to focus at infinity so not really an issue to me, but also not worth the hassle.
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Paul2660

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2015, 11:00:58 am »

The Nikon 45mm is actually not a bad lens, I found it vastly superior to the Nikon 24mm, (3 samples all worthless on shifts past 5mm on D800e).  The 45 Canon is very old and as mentioned very much needs a new version like the 17mm and 24mm TS-E2 glass.  Maybe with big 50 coming Canon will refresh the 45 and 90mm. 

I had hoped with the Rokinon 24mm for Nikon but it's worse in all respects than the Nikon 24mm. 

If you have ever shot a Canon 17mm or 24mm TS-E, you know what I mean as they are state of the art glass. 

No Canon lens will work on a Nikon mount as you push the lens past infinity as dwswager mentions.  I would love to have the Canon 24 TS-E even the 17mm on my Nikon.  I believe I read somewhere that SK Grimes can actually make this happen without loss of infinity, but the cost was quite a bit and it does limit the lens resell value.  For my work infinity is must. 

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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marc aurel

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2015, 12:10:05 pm »

The TS-E 45mm has a bad reputation. But the TS-E 90mm is quite good. It doesn't have the improved mechanics of the 17 and 24 (especially the independant rotation of shift and tilt directions). It can shift only 11mm instead of 12. But optically it is at least as good as the 24 and the 17. Here is a comparison: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=93273.0.

I do not think the Nikon PC-E 45mm can be used on a Canon camera because as far as I know there is no adapter that can control the electronic aperture of the Nikon lens (I would be glad to be proven wrong on this point). Some people use adapted MF optics for focal lengths above 35mm.

Best regards - Marc
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Ghibby

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2015, 12:13:55 pm »

The Nikon 45 and 85 PCE's are not too bad optically but no better than the Canon 45 and 90 TSE's even though these are in need of an update. On that subject i would suggest that the Nikons are in as much need of an update as the old Canons, while they have nicer looking casings due to the refresh they had about 6 or 7 years ago operationally they are no better than the 90's era Canon TSE's, ie no independent tilt/shift rotation as per the latest Canon 24 and 17 TSE's.

Also worthy of note is that the build quality of the Nikon PCE's is not as good as Canons from either generation.  On some copies there is significant play in the locking mechanism, documented by Lloyd Chambers in the DAP section of his site.  This is especially bad on the 24 PCE. If I recall correctly the Nikon 45 was the best in this regard but still exhibited some play in the lock mechanism making focusing tricky. This is not true of the Canon lenses, both older and newer versions. These are all very solid and are more than capable of being used without locking the shift mechanism, not so much the tilt mechanism though. Critically they do not subtly shift focus as they are locked which is the problem on the Nikons. 

Optically the Canon 24mk2 TSE leaves the Nikon 24 PCE for dead, the 17 is also without an equivalent and optically superb.  The Canon 45 and and 90's are comparable to Nikon 45 and 90 PCE's in optical terms as far as I know.   

I use both Canon 17 and 24mk2 and would not be without them now, super sharp, with practice and good technique you can get very sharp corners even at full shift by F8.0. They are easy to use and fairly robust to.

Ben
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dwswager

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2015, 02:18:39 pm »

In the category of "They can't be that bad" w/ respect to Nikon T/S lenses, this is from John Shaw's (Shaw's books got me started in photography eons ago) Gear Page:  

Camera bodies:
Nikon D4s and D810, with Really Right Stuff L brackets

Lenses and filters (all Nikon):
14-24mm f/2.8
16-35mm f/4
24-70mm f/2.8
24-120mm f/4
24mm f/3.5 PC-E Tilt/Shift
45mm f/2.8 PC-E Tilt/Shift
85mm f/2.8 PC-E Tilt/Shift

70-200mm f/4 AF-S
80-400mm f/4/5 Ė 5.6 AF-S
500mm f/4 AF-S
600mm f/4 AF-S
Nikon 1.4X teleconverter
Nikon circular polarizing filters
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kers

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2015, 04:12:19 pm »

Optically the Canon 24mk2 TSE leaves the Nikon 24 PCE for dead, the 17 is also without an equivalent and optically superb.  The Canon 45 and and 90's are comparable to Nikon 45 and 90 PCE's in optical terms as far as I know.    
I use both Canon 17 and 24mk2 and would not be without them now, super sharp, with practice and good technique you can get very sharp corners even at full shift by F8.0. They are easy to use and fairly robust to.
Ben
I have all three the PCE's since they arrived and they have not let me down.
Your memory is not that good...since you refer to LLoyd Chambers, he concludes the 45mm TS is optically a bit less than the Nikon.
The 24mm PCE is not dead for me, i use it on a d810 with great results...  the 90mm canon TS is according to Lloyd a good lens as is the 85mm PCE...
I agree Canons TS mechanism on the 17 and 24mm is better...  Let's see what the 50MP Canon will show us for all we know is 21 MP.
(and a nice thing of the PCE's is that you can use them for macro as well...)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 04:39:42 pm by kers »
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Pieter Kers
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axelbadde

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2015, 04:39:36 pm »

Thanks for all your inputs.

Found this comparison:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=348&Camera=453&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=635&CameraComp=614&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5

Seems like the nikon 45 is the better one, at least in this test.
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kers

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2015, 04:54:46 pm »

Hello Axel,

This is what i know about the 45mm PCE;
use it at f5.6- unshifted or f8- shifted) for best results
max usuable shift is almost max the long side or max the short side ( about 10mm)
the 50mm Sigma ART is sharper, but not PCE.
I did today a little test  50mm sigma panorama against 45mm PCE shifted indoors.
The results at 36 MP: Sigma is a little sharper/clearer but not very much..
good thing of the PCE:
You can shift/ tilt - it is a good macro- it is easier to use- and you can directly see what you get when you shift and tilt.
also the plain of sharpness remains the same while shifted.
PK
here a 100% crop ( d810)



« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 04:58:19 pm by kers »
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Pieter Kers
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Josef Isayo

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2015, 04:55:18 pm »

The Canon TS-E is the black sheep of the TS-E line. Its has decent center resolution but falls apart on the edges even unshifted.
I replaced mine with an EOS converted Canon FD TS-E that has superior image quality that gets close to the great 17 & 24.

kers

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2015, 05:00:31 pm »

The Canon TS-E is the black sheep of the TS-E line. Its has decent center resolution but falls apart on the edges even unshifted.
I replaced mine with an EOS converted Canon FD TS-E that has superior image quality that gets close to the great 17 & 24.
Do understand the older lens was better than the new one?
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Pieter Kers
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shadowblade

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2015, 08:28:29 pm »

I do not think the Nikon PC-E 45mm can be used on a Canon camera because as far as I know there is no adapter that can control the electronic aperture of the Nikon lens (I would be glad to be proven wrong on this point). Some people use adapted MF optics for focal lengths above 35mm.

You can get an adapter which allows for aperture control. I used the 14-24 on a Canon, now on a Sony. I think the adapter I had for the Canon was a Novoflex, from memory.
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phila

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2015, 10:51:31 pm »

The TS-E 45 is "okay" but is nowhere near the quality of the rest of the TS range. I use the 90 almost every day and while it is an old design (and is rumoured to be updated soon, possibly with a slightly longer focal length design) it is still extremely sharp! Most of the 45's edge problems can be corrected in Lightroom. The 17 is a fantastic lens!

marc aurel

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2015, 04:50:49 am »

You can get an adapter which allows for aperture control. I used the 14-24 on a Canon, now on a Sony. I think the adapter I had for the Canon was a Novoflex, from memory.

The aperture control of the PC-E is completely electronic. It's different from the one in the 14-24. I have never heard from anybody who has used a PC-E successfully on a Canon body.
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axelbadde

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2015, 04:04:33 pm »

Thanks for all the feedback!
Great information with very high value for me!

/Axel
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wallpaperviking

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2015, 10:40:35 pm »

Yes, I agree, as far as I know the Nikon PC-E lenses are fully electronic and as such will not work on the Sony A7R..

I have had the Olympus 35mm Shift but found it to flare terribly.. As far as my research showed, it was the multicoated version as well..

Not sure if i just had a terrible copy or it did not behave well with the Sony A7R..   

Love that you could use shift AND rise at the same time with this lens!  I wish my Canon 24mm TS-E II did that :(

I replaced it with the Pentax 645 35mm lens which I use with a Mirex adapter and get much much better results..  When stopped down to f8 -f11, this lens was on par with the Sigma 35mm 1.4 Art i had..

No combination of shift and rise though :(
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geesbert

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2015, 06:44:33 am »

Yes, I agree, as far as I know the Nikon PC-E lenses are fully electronic and as such will not work on the Sony A7R..

I have had the Olympus 35mm Shift but found it to flare terribly.. As far as my research showed, it was the multicoated version as well..

Not sure if i just had a terrible copy or it did not behave well with the Sony A7R..   

Love that you could use shift AND rise at the same time with this lens!  I wish my Canon 24mm TS-E II did that :(

I replaced it with the Pentax 645 35mm lens which I use with a Mirex adapter and get much much better results..  When stopped down to f8 -f11, this lens was on par with the Sigma 35mm 1.4 Art i had..

No combination of shift and rise though :(

why wouldn't you be able to do that? Shifted it can be rotated, so you can get a full circle  (or rather 2x half circles) of lens displacement.


Rumors of the eminent replacements of the Canon 45 and 90 are so old, I can't believe it. Maybe 10 years or so.

the 90mm is my most important lens, I earn my living with it, but I think it is rather mediocre. Might have been good when it came out some 24 years ago, but it doesn't cut it too well today. It is quite weak below 2 m, sadly the distance I presume it is used most often. the Hartblei super rotator is much better, though a pain to use.

Today I use a Cambo Actus with rodenstock glass, though this can't be used handheld, so the Canon tse 90 still has a place.

please Canon: give us a new 45 tse and a new 90tse (make it macro). and a 70tse. and a 135tse. We'll love you for it!
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marc aurel

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2015, 07:36:48 am »

why wouldn't you be able to do that? Shifted it can be rotated, so you can get a full circle  (or rather 2x half circles) of lens displacement.


Rumors of the eminent replacements of the Canon 45 and 90 are so old, I can't believe it. Maybe 10 years or so.

the 90mm is my most important lens, I earn my living with it, but I think it is rather mediocre. Might have been good when it came out some 24 years ago, but it doesn't cut it too well today. It is quite weak below 2 m, sadly the distance I presume it is used most often. the Hartblei super rotator is much better, though a pain to use.

Today I use a Cambo Actus with rodenstock glass, though this can't be used handheld, so the Canon tse 90 still has a place.

please Canon: give us a new 45 tse and a new 90tse (make it macro). and a 70tse. and a 135tse. We'll love you for it!


Interesting to read that you find the TS-E 90 mediocre below 2m. Maybe that's where the different opinions about it come from. I only use it at longer distances where it is excellent.

I agree that Canon really should do something for people who need shift lenses longer than their 24mm. I would love a modern 35mm (used to be a standard, now not a single manufacturer makes one any more). I also like your propositions for 70mm and 135mm focal lengths. Would be great if Zeiss (or maybe Sigma) would start to fill the gaps. Compared to the large number of excellent fast primes that are available today - it is a shame how mediocre most offers for shift lenses are.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 08:59:28 am by marc aurel »
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