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Author Topic: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?  (Read 24708 times)

CptZar

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2015, 08:59:25 am »

Hartblei-Zeiss 40/f4. Expensive, but you will have it forever.

Alternative: Hasselblad 40mm f4 CFE, with Mirex  TS adapter.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2015, 04:10:10 pm »

the 90mm is my most important lens, I earn my living with it, but I think it is rather mediocre. Might have been good when it came out some 24 years ago, but it doesn't cut it too well today. It is quite weak below 2 m, sadly the distance I presume it is used most often.

Hi,

The 90mm is an interesting lens. Designed before digital lens design started incorporating the filterstack as part of the optical design. Yet, it is an excellent performer. You say it's quite weak below 2 metres, but I cannot confirm that. In fact it's pretty good, at least my copy is.

So I just did a quick comparison at an even more extreme close distance, a macro shot at a magnification ratio of approx. 1:2.4 , so some 12 inches distance, and compared it with a dedicated macro lens the EF 100mm f/2.8 L Macro IS (the recent model). Both were shot at f/4.5 with the camera on tripod, so the difference in magnification is due to the focal length and the (EF25 II) extension tube I had to use on the TS-E to allow such close focus.

The subject was a 5 bill, the new edition has an incredible amount of high resolution detail of varying contrast, and a square area was cropped from the center that measures approx. 6.5x6.5 mm in reality.

Thank goodness the macro lens did better, as it should for the money it cost, but not that much better (see attachment). The TS-E is quite usable, much better than I expected. I created an animated GIF to allow and see the differences more clearly.

Cheers,
Bart
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axelbadde

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2015, 03:29:57 pm »

Nice caomparison Bart, at 90mm i'd feel quite safe that the canon is a good option. Anyone eer compared the canikon 45mm lenses with hassy cfe or other more modern MF lenses?

/Axel
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marc aurel

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2015, 04:45:41 am »

Nice caomparison Bart, at 90mm i'd feel quite safe that the canon is a good option. Anyone eer compared the canikon 45mm lenses with hassy cfe or other more modern MF lenses?

/Axel

Here you go:

1. TS-E 45mm vs. Hasselblad 40mm CFE / Hartblei 40mm
(optically the Hartblei is identical to the Hassy CFE, just mounted in a different housing for the tilt and shift mechanism). I rented the TS-E 45mm and tested against my Hartblei on a 5D III. About 10mm shift, 100% crops close to the corner. As you can see the TS-E 45mm is quite soft - even on a 22MP sensor. I decided the TS-E 45mm is not worth it...

2. Hartblei 40mm vs. PC-Distagon 35mm
I did this with the 5D III too. Both are excellent. I prefer the PC-Distagon for handling reasons and sold the Hartblei. More on this in my posting in this thread: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=86608.0

The PC-Distagon (and I am sure the Hartblei too) can resolve 36MP easily (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=93273.0).
I recommend not to waste your time and money on the TS-E 45mm. There are good alternatives.

Regards - Marc
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 05:19:19 am by marc aurel »
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CptZar

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2015, 07:46:53 am »

I have been using the Hartblei Zeiss 40/4 for a couple of years now. I also do have a the Mirex TS adapter Canon to Sony E-mount.

It depends what you primarily do with you lens. If you a looking for landscape, architecture solution which gives you greatest flexibility in terms of Tilt/Shift, the Hartblei Zeiss is in its own league. Beside the fact, that all glasses used where handpicked by Zeiss, they are just fun to work with. There is learning curve, but once you understood the superrotator principle, it is superior to any other TS mechanic.

All Zeiss-Hartbleis come with an integrated 360 tripod mount, which take the weight off the camera, and beside that makes them a View Camera, giving you backdrop and swing possibilities.  Hartblei states, the the lens can have up to  to 200 line pairs/Millimeter, whatever that means...

I use it with a Sony A7r which is the perfect companion, with its high resolution and EVF. The D810 with its split screen might be a good choice too for easy tilting.

The Mirex on the other hand, is not as flexible as the Hartblei. But I know that Joe Cornish is using just that combination.

Cheers

Jan

marc aurel

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2015, 08:40:45 am »

It depends what you primarily do with you lens. If you a looking for landscape, architecture solution which gives you greatest flexibility in terms of Tilt/Shift, the Hartblei Zeiss is in its own league. Beside the fact, that all glasses used where handpicked by Zeiss, they are just fun to work with. There is learning curve, but once you understood the superrotator principle, it is superior to any other TS mechanic.

All Zeiss-Hartbleis come with an integrated 360 tripod mount, which take the weight off the camera, and beside that makes them a View Camera, giving you backdrop and swing possibilities.  Hartblei states, the the lens can have up to  to 200 line pairs/Millimeter, whatever that means...

I use it with a Sony A7r which is the perfect companion, with its high resolution and EVF. The D810 with its split screen might be a good choice too for easy tilting.

The Mirex on the other hand, is not as flexible as the Hartblei. But I know that Joe Cornish is using just that combination.

Cheers

Jan



@Jan:
I know what you mean when you say that the Hartblei is superior to other TS mechanics. But I do not agree for every case. It depends on what you want. I used the Hartblei for architecture for 1 1/2 years.

Pros:
- It has a tripod mount which gives you backshift capabilities (like you said).
- That is similar to how a view camera works (but not exactly - most view cameras have independant shifts for both axis).
- That backshift allows parallax-free stitching.
- The mechanics are extremely robust.
- The big rings allow very exact shift and tilt adjustments.
- Shift and tilt can be rotated to each other independantly. The Canon TS-E 24 and 17 do that too, but only 180 relative to each other. The Hartblei can do 360.

Cons:
- The weight is enormous. 1.5 kg is nearly twice as much as most other TS lenses. And yes - for THAT weight you need a tripod mount! With other TS lenses - weight was never a reason for me for wanting a tripod mount.
- Shift only goes in one direction, and it is only 10mm.
- Changing the direction of shift (from up to down or to left/right/diagonal) means rotating lens and camera in the lens collar and then rotate camera versus lens. While you do that you loose the levelling of the camera (there are no markings or even detents on the tripod collar). That process takes some time.
- If you tilt then it has a side effect: the image center will be shifted. With a full tilt you need most of the shift capabilities of the lens just to compensate for that. That is not the case with the Canons.

I don't mean to say that it is not a superb lens with a great mechanical concept. But there a pros and cons to that concept.

Best regards -
Marc
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 10:11:47 am by marc aurel »
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CptZar

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2015, 09:59:59 am »

Marc,

I may add some points to the Con section...

Cons:
- The weight is enormous. 1.5 kg is nearly twice as much as most other TS lenses. And yes - for THAT weight you need a tripod mount! With other TS lenses - weight was never a reason for wanting a tripod mount.

Yes the weight is quite high. I don't care though, as it is such fun, at least for me to work with. However I try to limit the overall carried weight. So in the the end I don't think my backpack is heavier than the typical landscape bag. But yes weight is an argument. The advantage of the tripod mount, however is not only that it takes the weight off the lens. It fixes the lens and lets you only rotate the camera, which again frees you of all parallax errors. Actually I am using also the Canon 24TS and 17TS with a Zork tripod mount.

- Using shift on the Hartblei is counter-intuitive for me (which may be a question of taste).
I like it, but yes thats a taste question.

- Shift only goes in one direction, and it is only 10mm.
Canon 45 has 11mm shift. 1mm more.  You can get more shift however if you use the Mirex Canon -E-Mount adapter with it. (The Hartblei comes in Sony A-Mount, Canon or Nikon Mount). 15mm shouldn't be a problem. However extreme shifts will also cause corner distortion.

- Changing the direction of shift (from up to down or to left/right/diagonal) means rotating lens and camera in the lens collar and then rotate camera versus lens. While you do that you loose the levelling of the camera (there are no markings or even detents on the tripod collar).

True, but with leveling devices built in the camera it is just one turn, as only one axis has to be adjusted. Takes less than a second. By the way, if you get proficient in the use of the lens, you know before you level the lens if you need upshift or downshift, and you will do it right from the first time

- If you tilt then it has a side effect: the image center will be shifted. With a full tilt you need most of the shift capabilities of the lens just to compensate for that. That is not the case with the Canons.
I have to disagree but as I understand it, this is right for all TS lenses. If you move tilt in one direction, you will to counter that movement with shift, otherwise your composition will change.  In landscape photography you typically are interested to get the whole image sharp. By not diving to much into the theoretical aspects of TS photography, if we take an extrem case with a hinge line distance of 70 cm with a 40mm lens, you will have to use about 4.5 degrees of tilt. 10mm shift will always be enough to counter that amount. The Canon has 1 mm more shift. IMHO a more theoretical value.

Having said all that, in the end it comes down to personal preferences, like always.  And looking at your website, I can see you that you know very well about TS photography.


Cheers

Jan
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 01:09:46 pm by CptZar »
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marc aurel

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2015, 10:08:49 am »

@Jan:
I agree. It comes down to personal preferences. Good to hear you love this lens. If you know how to use it, it can produce amazing results.

Cheers -
Marc
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ben730

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2015, 12:54:24 pm »

Hartblei-Zeiss 40/f4. Expensive, but you will have it forever.

Alternative: Hasselblad 40mm f4 CFE, with Mirex  TS adapter.



Hi
If you want the "HB Zeiss with Mirex way" you have to buy the 40 mm CFE IF!
I use this lens and the Nikkor 45 and the Nikkor is weak, but small and light.

Please have also a look at this site: http://www.alpa.ch/de/news/2013/fps-lenses-free-choice.html?year=2013&num=3
It shows a lot of different Nikkor + Canon + .... T/S + MF lenses with an IQ180. It's very interesting!
Regards,
Ben

kers

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2015, 01:56:01 pm »

....
Please have also a look at this site: http://www.alpa.ch/de/news/2013/fps-lenses-free-choice.html?year=2013&num=3
It shows a lot of different Nikkor + Canon + .... T/S + MF lenses with an IQ180. It's very interesting!
Regards,
Ben

Ben, thanks for the link. ( and Alpa for making the images)
Indeed very instructive images.

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axelbadde

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2015, 04:28:08 pm »

Awseome, thanks for a the info!
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NancyP

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2015, 08:06:34 pm »

Adapter Nikon non-G lens to Canon EOS mount: Acceptable is the Fotodiox PRO mount, for approximately $80.00. There are cheaper adapters - don't get them - I had a Bower, and the lens wobbled on the mount. The Fotodiox PRO and other mounts more expensive than $80.00 have leaf springs that ensure that the adapter to lens fit is tight. Probably there are much nicer mounts than Fotodiox PRO, eg Novoflex, but I don't know that there is any added functionality. Fotodiox also makes a $40.00 adapter (without the PRO designation) that doesn't have a leaf spring in it, and I expect that it would be wobbly like the Bower.

I am enjoying my dad's old AIS Nikkor lenses, the AIS 105 f/2.5, 55 f/3.5 micro, 50 f/1.2 are really pretty good for non-computer-era lens design. On my Canon 6D they look pretty good at appropriate f stops.
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noah a

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2015, 12:03:46 am »

I use the 45 pc-e on my d800e bodies and it is a very good lens. I don't know how sharp it is wide open, but its a PC lens and its not likely to be used that way. At f/5.6 it is very sharp and at f/8 my copy is sharp even with quite a bit of shift. I will say that when focusing wide open, the image is crisp, contrasty and the focus really snaps in and out. So combined with the nice focus ring, it is a pleasure to shoot with.

My copy of the 24 pc-e is also quite decent, but I had to return two other ones before I found a good one. It does have some field curvature, but that can be used to good effect once you understand it and learn how the lens behaves.

I've had no problems with the mechanics. I wish the locking knobs were a bit larger, but it's not a major concern.

I had both of my lenses modified by Nikon to align the tilt and shift axes. If I remember correctly, it cost about $100 for each lens and I had them back in about a week with the NPS rush. I'm not sure what Nikon was thinking with the design, but once they're modified, they are great for landscape work. I don't mind that I can't rotate the movements independently. Personally,  I can't remember ever using swing for anything other than class assignments when I was in college and now when I teach large format workshops. Of course some folks might need it, but many of us don't.

I think the pc-e's have a bad reputation, but aside from sample variation, they're good lenses if you're careful and buy the right copies.

If only Nikon (or Zeiss) would make a modern 35 PC lens! PLEASE!
 

kers

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2015, 04:28:23 am »

I use the 45 pc-e on my d800e bodies and .... it is a pleasure to shoot with.

I agree - in use it is a very straigtforward lens - and it is even easy to predict the tilt. I like the bokeh - it produces very natural looking images.


My copy of the 24 pc-e is also quite decent, but I had to return two other ones before I found a good one. It does have some field curvature, but that can be used to good effect once you understand it and learn how the lens behaves.
There is a lot of talk about the bad quality of the 24mm PCE, but if you see the ALPA examples it is not bad at all in comparison to the 24mm TS lens of Canon.
My copy has too much field curvature at infinity for planar subjects. I wish it would be better in that respect.
Indoors it is nothing but outstanding.
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marc aurel

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2015, 05:12:06 am »


There is a lot of talk about the bad quality of the 24mm PCE, but if you see the ALPA examples it is not bad at all in comparison to the 24mm TS lens of Canon.
My copy has too much field curvature at infinity for planar subjects. I wish it would be better in that respect.
Indoors it is nothing but outstanding.


@Ben:
Thanks for the link to the Alpa comparison, I didn't know this one. Great.

@Pieter Kers:
I agree, the PC-E 24mm really does not look bad. Seems to be a great lens too.

But I am not sure about the focus in the TS-E 24 II image in the Alpa comparison. I loaded the images in Lightroom for comparison. I add three screenshots to this thread.
The first screenshot is from the lower left corner with vegetation close to the camera - focus is much closer with the TS-E. The second screenshot is from the upper left corner with the distant mountains. The PC-E looks sharper there (although with more CA). I think that the Canon could do better here, but is slightly out of focus in that part of the image. The Canon has some field curvature too, maybe they focused on the image centre and did not compensate for field curvature. The third screenshot shows the TS-E 17 and the TS-E 24 II images. The image from the TS-E 17 is more representative for what I am used to from both of these lenses. That close to the edge of their official image circle they are not excellent, but not as bad as the 24 looks in the Alpa comparison.

If you use such a high resolution, the slightest differences in focus get visible, even with f11. And it is very hard to do a fair test with different lenses (and even different focal lengths).

Best regards -
Marc
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 05:46:09 am by marc aurel »
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kers

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2015, 06:00:13 am »

.....

If you use such a high resolution, the slightest differences in focus get visible, even with f11. And it is very hard to do a fair test with different lenses (and even different focal lengths).
....
Marc

I fully agree - i just did a test with incremental focus changes using all apertures with two 24mm lenses i own. ( at this point i am scrutinizing even more than Diglloyd ;))
The results are very instructive. i find you have different options of sharpness/unsharpness to choose from... but it takes only that tiny bit of focus change and you have a completeley different outcome... especially between f2.8 and f5.6. Closing the aperture further stabelizes the outcome.. at f11 it almost does not matter anymore where to put the focus with some FF lenses - but NOT with TS lenses

-
This sensitivity in focus reflects possibly also in the outcome of the ALPA  nikon- canon samples...
I am sure the canon could do better @infinity reading all the positive reviews - the 17mm looks very good indeed.
The Nikon lens is a lot sharper in the center than the Canon but that is not a reason to buy a TS lens.


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ben730

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2015, 07:00:26 am »

If you want the "HB Zeiss with Mirex way" you have to buy the 40 mm CFE IF!
I use this lens and the Nikkor 45 and the Nikkor is weak, but small and light.

For those who are interested, I made today 4 test shots with a D800 to compare these two lenses.
Zeiss Distagon CFE 4/40 mm IF with Mirex Tilt/Shift-Adapter (1320g) vs. Nikkor PC 2.8/45 (740g)
 
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https://www.dropbox.com/sh/h1ts0t47uzzbjb4/AAAWjh_Yn0F2zPykSjhNnonna?dl=0

.....and, this is not a scientic test. I agree with you Marc: "it is very hard to do a fair test with different lenses (and even different focal lengths)."
But I think my comparision shows a clear difference in sharpness.

Regards,
Ben
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 07:07:03 am by ben730 »
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ben730

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2015, 07:46:37 am »

...and the backlight test.
I think they are both o.k.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 07:49:11 am by ben730 »
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kers

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2015, 09:35:44 am »


For those who are interested, I made today 4 test shots with a D800 to compare these two lenses.
Zeiss Distagon CFE 4/40 mm IF with Mirex Tilt/Shift-Adapter (1320g) vs. Nikkor PC 2.8/45 (740g)
 
....
Ben

Ben thanks for sharing...
It is clear the zeiss wins hands down...also more shift...
But there is some problem i think with the 45PC- the center images seems OK.
when shifted - some parts that were sharp in the center image have become unsharp..? (look at the grass between the houses with the snow)

Maybe it is not well locked-
the nikon tilt-shift mechanism is unfortunately not that well designed as the miramax counterpart...
it is working, but you have to lock everything well or have these kind of problems..
Also before shooting any photo with it you have to check if there is not tilt...
-






« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 10:54:58 am by kers »
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ben730

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Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2015, 10:31:55 am »

Yes, sorry, you are right. I made this test very quickly and
I had not a good tripod at home.........
But it shows how fragile the Nikon mechanism works.
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