Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: axelbadde on February 11, 2015, 08:31:47 am

Title: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: axelbadde on February 11, 2015, 08:31:47 am
Hi i was wondering if anyone has got any thoughts on this subject. The nikkor 45mm pc is a newer lens, seems sharper then the canon but haven’t found any comparisons.
but its a lot more expensive, especially if you look to the 2:nd hand market.
Since i have a a7r i can choose whichever and I’m looking for the sharpest one, but the 2nd hand price is the double.
Anyone had any real experience comparing these two?

I have the both the canon 17 and 24 mrkll and the olympos zuiko 35mm shift. Just looking for a sharp longer focal length 

Best,

Axel
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: shadowblade on February 11, 2015, 09:08:20 am
The Canon TS-E 45 and 90 are badly in need of updates.

That said, you can use the Nikon versions on Canon via an adapter, but not vice versa.
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: manfred1 on February 11, 2015, 09:35:35 am
Hi,

>That said, you can use the Nikon versions on Canon via an adapter, but not vice versa.

which adapter would you recommend?

Manfred
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: dwswager on February 11, 2015, 09:48:30 am
I'm a Nikon shooter and have resisted biting on the T/S lenses from Nikon because the tilts and shifts do not operate in the same direction.  You can have the lens modified to work the way they should.  This is one area where Canon lenses trump Nikon, even though the Canons are longer in the tooth.

You can technically put Canon lenses on a Nikon body.  The reason it isn't done regularly is that the lens flange to sensor distance on the Nikon.  When you put a Canon Lens onto a Nikon body it basically gives the lens a few millimeters of extension so the lens, depending on how it was designed, probably won't focus at infinity.  But it will focus somewhat closer than on a Canon body.  I tend rarely to focus at infinity so not really an issue to me, but also not worth the hassle.
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: Paul2660 on February 11, 2015, 11:00:58 am
The Nikon 45mm is actually not a bad lens, I found it vastly superior to the Nikon 24mm, (3 samples all worthless on shifts past 5mm on D800e).  The 45 Canon is very old and as mentioned very much needs a new version like the 17mm and 24mm TS-E2 glass.  Maybe with big 50 coming Canon will refresh the 45 and 90mm. 

I had hoped with the Rokinon 24mm for Nikon but it's worse in all respects than the Nikon 24mm. 

If you have ever shot a Canon 17mm or 24mm TS-E, you know what I mean as they are state of the art glass. 

No Canon lens will work on a Nikon mount as you push the lens past infinity as dwswager mentions.  I would love to have the Canon 24 TS-E even the 17mm on my Nikon.  I believe I read somewhere that SK Grimes can actually make this happen without loss of infinity, but the cost was quite a bit and it does limit the lens resell value.  For my work infinity is must. 

Paul
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: marc aurel on February 11, 2015, 12:10:05 pm
The TS-E 45mm has a bad reputation. But the TS-E 90mm is quite good. It doesn't have the improved mechanics of the 17 and 24 (especially the independant rotation of shift and tilt directions). It can shift only 11mm instead of 12. But optically it is at least as good as the 24 and the 17. Here is a comparison: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=93273.0.

I do not think the Nikon PC-E 45mm can be used on a Canon camera because as far as I know there is no adapter that can control the electronic aperture of the Nikon lens (I would be glad to be proven wrong on this point). Some people use adapted MF optics for focal lengths above 35mm.

Best regards - Marc
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: Ghibby on February 11, 2015, 12:13:55 pm
The Nikon 45 and 85 PCE's are not too bad optically but no better than the Canon 45 and 90 TSE's even though these are in need of an update. On that subject i would suggest that the Nikons are in as much need of an update as the old Canons, while they have nicer looking casings due to the refresh they had about 6 or 7 years ago operationally they are no better than the 90's era Canon TSE's, ie no independent tilt/shift rotation as per the latest Canon 24 and 17 TSE's.

Also worthy of note is that the build quality of the Nikon PCE's is not as good as Canons from either generation.  On some copies there is significant play in the locking mechanism, documented by Lloyd Chambers in the DAP section of his site.  This is especially bad on the 24 PCE. If I recall correctly the Nikon 45 was the best in this regard but still exhibited some play in the lock mechanism making focusing tricky. This is not true of the Canon lenses, both older and newer versions. These are all very solid and are more than capable of being used without locking the shift mechanism, not so much the tilt mechanism though. Critically they do not subtly shift focus as they are locked which is the problem on the Nikons. 

Optically the Canon 24mk2 TSE leaves the Nikon 24 PCE for dead, the 17 is also without an equivalent and optically superb.  The Canon 45 and and 90's are comparable to Nikon 45 and 90 PCE's in optical terms as far as I know.   

I use both Canon 17 and 24mk2 and would not be without them now, super sharp, with practice and good technique you can get very sharp corners even at full shift by F8.0. They are easy to use and fairly robust to.

Ben
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: dwswager on February 11, 2015, 02:18:39 pm
In the category of "They can't be that bad" w/ respect to Nikon T/S lenses, this is from John Shaw's (Shaw's books got me started in photography eons ago) Gear Page (http://www.johnshawphoto.com/gear-2/):  

Camera bodies:
Nikon D4s and D810, with Really Right Stuff L brackets

Lenses and filters (all Nikon):
14-24mm f/2.8
16-35mm f/4
24-70mm f/2.8
24-120mm f/4
24mm f/3.5 PC-E Tilt/Shift
45mm f/2.8 PC-E Tilt/Shift
85mm f/2.8 PC-E Tilt/Shift

70-200mm f/4 AF-S
80-400mm f/4/5 – 5.6 AF-S
500mm f/4 AF-S
600mm f/4 AF-S
Nikon 1.4X teleconverter
Nikon circular polarizing filters
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: kers on February 11, 2015, 04:12:19 pm
Optically the Canon 24mk2 TSE leaves the Nikon 24 PCE for dead, the 17 is also without an equivalent and optically superb.  The Canon 45 and and 90's are comparable to Nikon 45 and 90 PCE's in optical terms as far as I know.    
I use both Canon 17 and 24mk2 and would not be without them now, super sharp, with practice and good technique you can get very sharp corners even at full shift by F8.0. They are easy to use and fairly robust to.
Ben
I have all three the PCE's since they arrived and they have not let me down.
Your memory is not that good...since you refer to LLoyd Chambers, he concludes the 45mm TS is optically a bit less than the Nikon.
The 24mm PCE is not dead for me, i use it on a d810 with great results...  the 90mm canon TS is according to Lloyd a good lens as is the 85mm PCE...
I agree Canons TS mechanism on the 17 and 24mm is better...  Let's see what the 50MP Canon will show us for all we know is 21 MP.
(and a nice thing of the PCE's is that you can use them for macro as well...)
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: axelbadde on February 11, 2015, 04:39:36 pm
Thanks for all your inputs.

Found this comparison:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=348&Camera=453&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=635&CameraComp=614&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5 (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=348&Camera=453&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=635&CameraComp=614&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=5)

Seems like the nikon 45 is the better one, at least in this test.
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: kers on February 11, 2015, 04:54:46 pm
Hello Axel,

This is what i know about the 45mm PCE;
use it at f5.6- unshifted or f8- shifted) for best results
max usuable shift is almost max the long side or max the short side ( about 10mm)
the 50mm Sigma ART is sharper, but not PCE.
I did today a little test  50mm sigma panorama against 45mm PCE shifted indoors.
The results at 36 MP: Sigma is a little sharper/clearer but not very much..
good thing of the PCE:
You can shift/ tilt - it is a good macro- it is easier to use- and you can directly see what you get when you shift and tilt.
also the plain of sharpness remains the same while shifted.
PK
here a 100% crop ( d810)



Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: Josef Isayo on February 11, 2015, 04:55:18 pm
The Canon TS-E is the black sheep of the TS-E line. Its has decent center resolution but falls apart on the edges even unshifted.
I replaced mine with an EOS converted Canon FD TS-E that has superior image quality that gets close to the great 17 & 24.
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: kers on February 11, 2015, 05:00:31 pm
The Canon TS-E is the black sheep of the TS-E line. Its has decent center resolution but falls apart on the edges even unshifted.
I replaced mine with an EOS converted Canon FD TS-E that has superior image quality that gets close to the great 17 & 24.
Do understand the older lens was better than the new one?
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: shadowblade on February 11, 2015, 08:28:29 pm
I do not think the Nikon PC-E 45mm can be used on a Canon camera because as far as I know there is no adapter that can control the electronic aperture of the Nikon lens (I would be glad to be proven wrong on this point). Some people use adapted MF optics for focal lengths above 35mm.

You can get an adapter which allows for aperture control. I used the 14-24 on a Canon, now on a Sony. I think the adapter I had for the Canon was a Novoflex, from memory.
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: phila on February 11, 2015, 10:51:31 pm
The TS-E 45 is "okay" but is nowhere near the quality of the rest of the TS range. I use the 90 almost every day and while it is an old design (and is rumoured to be updated soon, possibly with a slightly longer focal length design) it is still extremely sharp! Most of the 45's edge problems can be corrected in Lightroom. The 17 is a fantastic lens!
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: marc aurel on February 12, 2015, 04:50:49 am
You can get an adapter which allows for aperture control. I used the 14-24 on a Canon, now on a Sony. I think the adapter I had for the Canon was a Novoflex, from memory.

The aperture control of the PC-E is completely electronic. It's different from the one in the 14-24. I have never heard from anybody who has used a PC-E successfully on a Canon body.
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: axelbadde on February 12, 2015, 04:04:33 pm
Thanks for all the feedback!
Great information with very high value for me!

/Axel
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: wallpaperviking on February 12, 2015, 10:40:35 pm
Yes, I agree, as far as I know the Nikon PC-E lenses are fully electronic and as such will not work on the Sony A7R..

I have had the Olympus 35mm Shift but found it to flare terribly.. As far as my research showed, it was the multicoated version as well..

Not sure if i just had a terrible copy or it did not behave well with the Sony A7R..   

Love that you could use shift AND rise at the same time with this lens!  I wish my Canon 24mm TS-E II did that :(

I replaced it with the Pentax 645 35mm lens which I use with a Mirex adapter and get much much better results..  When stopped down to f8 -f11, this lens was on par with the Sigma 35mm 1.4 Art i had..

No combination of shift and rise though :(
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: geesbert on February 13, 2015, 06:44:33 am
Yes, I agree, as far as I know the Nikon PC-E lenses are fully electronic and as such will not work on the Sony A7R..

I have had the Olympus 35mm Shift but found it to flare terribly.. As far as my research showed, it was the multicoated version as well..

Not sure if i just had a terrible copy or it did not behave well with the Sony A7R..   

Love that you could use shift AND rise at the same time with this lens!  I wish my Canon 24mm TS-E II did that :(

I replaced it with the Pentax 645 35mm lens which I use with a Mirex adapter and get much much better results..  When stopped down to f8 -f11, this lens was on par with the Sigma 35mm 1.4 Art i had..

No combination of shift and rise though :(

why wouldn't you be able to do that? Shifted it can be rotated, so you can get a full circle  (or rather 2x half circles) of lens displacement.


Rumors of the eminent replacements of the Canon 45 and 90 are so old, I can't believe it. Maybe 10 years or so.

the 90mm is my most important lens, I earn my living with it, but I think it is rather mediocre. Might have been good when it came out some 24 years ago, but it doesn't cut it too well today. It is quite weak below 2 m, sadly the distance I presume it is used most often. the Hartblei super rotator is much better, though a pain to use.

Today I use a Cambo Actus with rodenstock glass, though this can't be used handheld, so the Canon tse 90 still has a place.

please Canon: give us a new 45 tse and a new 90tse (make it macro). and a 70tse. and a 135tse. We'll love you for it!
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: marc aurel on February 13, 2015, 07:36:48 am
why wouldn't you be able to do that? Shifted it can be rotated, so you can get a full circle  (or rather 2x half circles) of lens displacement.


Rumors of the eminent replacements of the Canon 45 and 90 are so old, I can't believe it. Maybe 10 years or so.

the 90mm is my most important lens, I earn my living with it, but I think it is rather mediocre. Might have been good when it came out some 24 years ago, but it doesn't cut it too well today. It is quite weak below 2 m, sadly the distance I presume it is used most often. the Hartblei super rotator is much better, though a pain to use.

Today I use a Cambo Actus with rodenstock glass, though this can't be used handheld, so the Canon tse 90 still has a place.

please Canon: give us a new 45 tse and a new 90tse (make it macro). and a 70tse. and a 135tse. We'll love you for it!


Interesting to read that you find the TS-E 90 mediocre below 2m. Maybe that's where the different opinions about it come from. I only use it at longer distances where it is excellent.

I agree that Canon really should do something for people who need shift lenses longer than their 24mm. I would love a modern 35mm (used to be a standard, now not a single manufacturer makes one any more). I also like your propositions for 70mm and 135mm focal lengths. Would be great if Zeiss (or maybe Sigma) would start to fill the gaps. Compared to the large number of excellent fast primes that are available today - it is a shame how mediocre most offers for shift lenses are.
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: CptZar on February 15, 2015, 08:59:25 am
Hartblei-Zeiss 40/f4. Expensive, but you will have it forever.

Alternative: Hasselblad 40mm f4 CFE, with Mirex  TS adapter.

Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on February 16, 2015, 04:10:10 pm
the 90mm is my most important lens, I earn my living with it, but I think it is rather mediocre. Might have been good when it came out some 24 years ago, but it doesn't cut it too well today. It is quite weak below 2 m, sadly the distance I presume it is used most often.

Hi,

The 90mm is an interesting lens. Designed before digital lens design started incorporating the filterstack as part of the optical design. Yet, it is an excellent performer. You say it's quite weak below 2 metres, but I cannot confirm that. In fact it's pretty good, at least my copy is.

So I just did a quick comparison at an even more extreme close distance, a macro shot at a magnification ratio of approx. 1:2.4 , so some 12 inches distance, and compared it with a dedicated macro lens the EF 100mm f/2.8 L Macro IS (the recent model). Both were shot at f/4.5 with the camera on tripod, so the difference in magnification is due to the focal length and the (EF25 II) extension tube I had to use on the TS-E to allow such close focus.

The subject was a € 5 bill, the new edition has an incredible amount of high resolution detail of varying contrast, and a square area was cropped from the center that measures approx. 6.5x6.5 mm in reality.

Thank goodness the macro lens did better, as it should for the money it cost, but not that much better (see attachment). The TS-E is quite usable, much better than I expected. I created an animated GIF to allow and see the differences more clearly.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: axelbadde on February 17, 2015, 03:29:57 pm
Nice caomparison Bart, at 90mm i'd feel quite safe that the canon is a good option. Anyone eer compared the canikon 45mm lenses with hassy cfe or other more modern MF lenses?

/Axel
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: marc aurel on February 18, 2015, 04:45:41 am
Nice caomparison Bart, at 90mm i'd feel quite safe that the canon is a good option. Anyone eer compared the canikon 45mm lenses with hassy cfe or other more modern MF lenses?

/Axel

Here you go:

1. TS-E 45mm vs. Hasselblad 40mm CFE / Hartblei 40mm
(optically the Hartblei is identical to the Hassy CFE, just mounted in a different housing for the tilt and shift mechanism). I rented the TS-E 45mm and tested against my Hartblei on a 5D III. About 10mm shift, 100% crops close to the corner. As you can see the TS-E 45mm is quite soft - even on a 22MP sensor. I decided the TS-E 45mm is not worth it...

2. Hartblei 40mm vs. PC-Distagon 35mm
I did this with the 5D III too. Both are excellent. I prefer the PC-Distagon for handling reasons and sold the Hartblei. More on this in my posting in this thread: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=86608.0

The PC-Distagon (and I am sure the Hartblei too) can resolve 36MP easily (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=93273.0).
I recommend not to waste your time and money on the TS-E 45mm. There are good alternatives.

Regards - Marc
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: CptZar on February 18, 2015, 07:46:53 am
I have been using the Hartblei Zeiss 40/4 for a couple of years now. I also do have a the Mirex TS adapter Canon to Sony E-mount.

It depends what you primarily do with you lens. If you a looking for landscape, architecture solution which gives you greatest flexibility in terms of Tilt/Shift, the Hartblei Zeiss is in its own league. Beside the fact, that all glasses used where handpicked by Zeiss, they are just fun to work with. There is learning curve, but once you understood the superrotator principle, it is superior to any other TS mechanic.

All Zeiss-Hartbleis come with an integrated 360° tripod mount, which take the weight off the camera, and beside that makes them a View Camera, giving you backdrop and swing possibilities.  Hartblei states, the the lens can have up to  to 200 line pairs/Millimeter, whatever that means...

I use it with a Sony A7r which is the perfect companion, with its high resolution and EVF. The D810 with its split screen might be a good choice too for easy tilting.

The Mirex on the other hand, is not as flexible as the Hartblei. But I know that Joe Cornish is using just that combination.

Cheers

Jan
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: marc aurel on February 18, 2015, 08:40:45 am
It depends what you primarily do with you lens. If you a looking for landscape, architecture solution which gives you greatest flexibility in terms of Tilt/Shift, the Hartblei Zeiss is in its own league. Beside the fact, that all glasses used where handpicked by Zeiss, they are just fun to work with. There is learning curve, but once you understood the superrotator principle, it is superior to any other TS mechanic.

All Zeiss-Hartbleis come with an integrated 360° tripod mount, which take the weight off the camera, and beside that makes them a View Camera, giving you backdrop and swing possibilities.  Hartblei states, the the lens can have up to  to 200 line pairs/Millimeter, whatever that means...

I use it with a Sony A7r which is the perfect companion, with its high resolution and EVF. The D810 with its split screen might be a good choice too for easy tilting.

The Mirex on the other hand, is not as flexible as the Hartblei. But I know that Joe Cornish is using just that combination.

Cheers

Jan



@Jan:
I know what you mean when you say that the Hartblei is superior to other TS mechanics. But I do not agree for every case. It depends on what you want. I used the Hartblei for architecture for 1 1/2 years.

Pros:
- It has a tripod mount which gives you backshift capabilities (like you said).
- That is similar to how a view camera works (but not exactly - most view cameras have independant shifts for both axis).
- That backshift allows parallax-free stitching.
- The mechanics are extremely robust.
- The big rings allow very exact shift and tilt adjustments.
- Shift and tilt can be rotated to each other independantly. The Canon TS-E 24 and 17 do that too, but only 180° relative to each other. The Hartblei can do 360°.

Cons:
- The weight is enormous. 1.5 kg is nearly twice as much as most other TS lenses. And yes - for THAT weight you need a tripod mount! With other TS lenses - weight was never a reason for me for wanting a tripod mount.
- Shift only goes in one direction, and it is only 10mm.
- Changing the direction of shift (from up to down or to left/right/diagonal) means rotating lens and camera in the lens collar and then rotate camera versus lens. While you do that you loose the levelling of the camera (there are no markings or even detents on the tripod collar). That process takes some time.
- If you tilt then it has a side effect: the image center will be shifted. With a full tilt you need most of the shift capabilities of the lens just to compensate for that. That is not the case with the Canons.

I don't mean to say that it is not a superb lens with a great mechanical concept. But there a pros and cons to that concept.

Best regards -
Marc
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: CptZar on February 18, 2015, 09:59:59 am
Marc,

I may add some points to the Con section...

Cons:
- The weight is enormous. 1.5 kg is nearly twice as much as most other TS lenses. And yes - for THAT weight you need a tripod mount! With other TS lenses - weight was never a reason for wanting a tripod mount.

Yes the weight is quite high. I don't care though, as it is such fun, at least for me to work with. However I try to limit the overall carried weight. So in the the end I don't think my backpack is heavier than the typical landscape bag. But yes weight is an argument. The advantage of the tripod mount, however is not only that it takes the weight off the lens. It fixes the lens and lets you only rotate the camera, which again frees you of all parallax errors. Actually I am using also the Canon 24TS and 17TS with a Zork tripod mount.

- Using shift on the Hartblei is counter-intuitive for me (which may be a question of taste).
I like it, but yes thats a taste question.

- Shift only goes in one direction, and it is only 10mm.
Canon 45 has 11mm shift. 1mm more.  You can get more shift however if you use the Mirex Canon -E-Mount adapter with it. (The Hartblei comes in Sony A-Mount, Canon or Nikon Mount). 15mm shouldn't be a problem. However extreme shifts will also cause corner distortion.

- Changing the direction of shift (from up to down or to left/right/diagonal) means rotating lens and camera in the lens collar and then rotate camera versus lens. While you do that you loose the levelling of the camera (there are no markings or even detents on the tripod collar).

True, but with leveling devices built in the camera it is just one turn, as only one axis has to be adjusted. Takes less than a second. By the way, if you get proficient in the use of the lens, you know before you level the lens if you need upshift or downshift, and you will do it right from the first time

- If you tilt then it has a side effect: the image center will be shifted. With a full tilt you need most of the shift capabilities of the lens just to compensate for that. That is not the case with the Canons.
I have to disagree but as I understand it, this is right for all TS lenses. If you move tilt in one direction, you will to counter that movement with shift, otherwise your composition will change.  In landscape photography you typically are interested to get the whole image sharp. By not diving to much into the theoretical aspects of TS photography, if we take an extrem case with a hinge line distance of 70 cm with a 40mm lens, you will have to use about 4.5 degrees of tilt. 10mm shift will always be enough to counter that amount. The Canon has 1 mm more shift. IMHO a more theoretical value.

Having said all that, in the end it comes down to personal preferences, like always.  And looking at your website, I can see you that you know very well about TS photography.


Cheers

Jan
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: marc aurel on February 18, 2015, 10:08:49 am
@Jan:
I agree. It comes down to personal preferences. Good to hear you love this lens. If you know how to use it, it can produce amazing results.

Cheers -
Marc
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: ben730 on February 18, 2015, 12:54:24 pm
Hartblei-Zeiss 40/f4. Expensive, but you will have it forever.

Alternative: Hasselblad 40mm f4 CFE, with Mirex  TS adapter.



Hi
If you want the "HB Zeiss with Mirex way" you have to buy the 40 mm CFE IF!
I use this lens and the Nikkor 45 and the Nikkor is weak, but small and light.

Please have also a look at this site: http://www.alpa.ch/de/news/2013/fps-lenses-free-choice.html?year=2013&num=3
It shows a lot of different Nikkor + Canon + .... T/S + MF lenses with an IQ180. It's very interesting!
Regards,
Ben
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: kers on February 18, 2015, 01:56:01 pm
....
Please have also a look at this site: http://www.alpa.ch/de/news/2013/fps-lenses-free-choice.html?year=2013&num=3
It shows a lot of different Nikkor + Canon + .... T/S + MF lenses with an IQ180. It's very interesting!
Regards,
Ben

Ben, thanks for the link. ( and Alpa for making the images)
Indeed very instructive images.

Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: axelbadde on February 18, 2015, 04:28:08 pm
Awseome, thanks for a the info!
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: NancyP on February 18, 2015, 08:06:34 pm
Adapter Nikon non-G lens to Canon EOS mount: Acceptable is the Fotodiox PRO mount, for approximately $80.00. There are cheaper adapters - don't get them - I had a Bower, and the lens wobbled on the mount. The Fotodiox PRO and other mounts more expensive than $80.00 have leaf springs that ensure that the adapter to lens fit is tight. Probably there are much nicer mounts than Fotodiox PRO, eg Novoflex, but I don't know that there is any added functionality. Fotodiox also makes a $40.00 adapter (without the PRO designation) that doesn't have a leaf spring in it, and I expect that it would be wobbly like the Bower.

I am enjoying my dad's old AIS Nikkor lenses, the AIS 105 f/2.5, 55 f/3.5 micro, 50 f/1.2 are really pretty good for non-computer-era lens design. On my Canon 6D they look pretty good at appropriate f stops.
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: noah a on February 19, 2015, 12:03:46 am
I use the 45 pc-e on my d800e bodies and it is a very good lens. I don't know how sharp it is wide open, but its a PC lens and its not likely to be used that way. At f/5.6 it is very sharp and at f/8 my copy is sharp even with quite a bit of shift. I will say that when focusing wide open, the image is crisp, contrasty and the focus really snaps in and out. So combined with the nice focus ring, it is a pleasure to shoot with.

My copy of the 24 pc-e is also quite decent, but I had to return two other ones before I found a good one. It does have some field curvature, but that can be used to good effect once you understand it and learn how the lens behaves.

I've had no problems with the mechanics. I wish the locking knobs were a bit larger, but it's not a major concern.

I had both of my lenses modified by Nikon to align the tilt and shift axes. If I remember correctly, it cost about $100 for each lens and I had them back in about a week with the NPS rush. I'm not sure what Nikon was thinking with the design, but once they're modified, they are great for landscape work. I don't mind that I can't rotate the movements independently. Personally,  I can't remember ever using swing for anything other than class assignments when I was in college and now when I teach large format workshops. Of course some folks might need it, but many of us don't.

I think the pc-e's have a bad reputation, but aside from sample variation, they're good lenses if you're careful and buy the right copies.

If only Nikon (or Zeiss) would make a modern 35 PC lens! PLEASE!
 
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: kers on February 19, 2015, 04:28:23 am
I use the 45 pc-e on my d800e bodies and .... it is a pleasure to shoot with.

I agree - in use it is a very straigtforward lens - and it is even easy to predict the tilt. I like the bokeh - it produces very natural looking images.


My copy of the 24 pc-e is also quite decent, but I had to return two other ones before I found a good one. It does have some field curvature, but that can be used to good effect once you understand it and learn how the lens behaves.
There is a lot of talk about the bad quality of the 24mm PCE, but if you see the ALPA examples it is not bad at all in comparison to the 24mm TS lens of Canon.
My copy has too much field curvature at infinity for planar subjects. I wish it would be better in that respect.
Indoors it is nothing but outstanding.
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: marc aurel on February 20, 2015, 05:12:06 am

There is a lot of talk about the bad quality of the 24mm PCE, but if you see the ALPA examples it is not bad at all in comparison to the 24mm TS lens of Canon.
My copy has too much field curvature at infinity for planar subjects. I wish it would be better in that respect.
Indoors it is nothing but outstanding.


@Ben:
Thanks for the link to the Alpa comparison, I didn't know this one. Great.

@Pieter Kers:
I agree, the PC-E 24mm really does not look bad. Seems to be a great lens too.

But I am not sure about the focus in the TS-E 24 II image in the Alpa comparison. I loaded the images in Lightroom for comparison. I add three screenshots to this thread.
The first screenshot is from the lower left corner with vegetation close to the camera - focus is much closer with the TS-E. The second screenshot is from the upper left corner with the distant mountains. The PC-E looks sharper there (although with more CA). I think that the Canon could do better here, but is slightly out of focus in that part of the image. The Canon has some field curvature too, maybe they focused on the image centre and did not compensate for field curvature. The third screenshot shows the TS-E 17 and the TS-E 24 II images. The image from the TS-E 17 is more representative for what I am used to from both of these lenses. That close to the edge of their official image circle they are not excellent, but not as bad as the 24 looks in the Alpa comparison.

If you use such a high resolution, the slightest differences in focus get visible, even with f11. And it is very hard to do a fair test with different lenses (and even different focal lengths).

Best regards -
Marc
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: kers on February 20, 2015, 06:00:13 am
.....

If you use such a high resolution, the slightest differences in focus get visible, even with f11. And it is very hard to do a fair test with different lenses (and even different focal lengths).
....
Marc

I fully agree - i just did a test with incremental focus changes using all apertures with two 24mm lenses i own. ( at this point i am scrutinizing even more than Diglloyd ;))
The results are very instructive. i find you have different options of sharpness/unsharpness to choose from... but it takes only that tiny bit of focus change and you have a completeley different outcome... especially between f2.8 and f5.6. Closing the aperture further stabelizes the outcome.. at f11 it almost does not matter anymore where to put the focus with some FF lenses - but NOT with TS lenses

-
This sensitivity in focus reflects possibly also in the outcome of the ALPA  nikon- canon samples...
I am sure the canon could do better @infinity reading all the positive reviews - the 17mm looks very good indeed.
The Nikon lens is a lot sharper in the center than the Canon but that is not a reason to buy a TS lens.


Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: ben730 on February 21, 2015, 07:00:26 am
If you want the "HB Zeiss with Mirex way" you have to buy the 40 mm CFE IF!
I use this lens and the Nikkor 45 and the Nikkor is weak, but small and light.

For those who are interested, I made today 4 test shots with a D800 to compare these two lenses.
Zeiss Distagon CFE 4/40 mm IF with Mirex Tilt/Shift-Adapter (1320g) vs. Nikkor PC 2.8/45 (740g)
 
Download Raws:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/h1ts0t47uzzbjb4/AAAWjh_Yn0F2zPykSjhNnonna?dl=0

.....and, this is not a scientic test. I agree with you Marc: "it is very hard to do a fair test with different lenses (and even different focal lengths)."
But I think my comparision shows a clear difference in sharpness.

Regards,
Ben
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: ben730 on February 21, 2015, 07:46:37 am
...and the backlight test.
I think they are both o.k.
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: kers on February 21, 2015, 09:35:44 am

For those who are interested, I made today 4 test shots with a D800 to compare these two lenses.
Zeiss Distagon CFE 4/40 mm IF with Mirex Tilt/Shift-Adapter (1320g) vs. Nikkor PC 2.8/45 (740g)
 
....
Ben

Ben thanks for sharing...
It is clear the zeiss wins hands down...also more shift...
But there is some problem i think with the 45PC- the center images seems OK.
when shifted - some parts that were sharp in the center image have become unsharp..? (look at the grass between the houses with the snow)

Maybe it is not well locked-
the nikon tilt-shift mechanism is unfortunately not that well designed as the miramax counterpart...
it is working, but you have to lock everything well or have these kind of problems..
Also before shooting any photo with it you have to check if there is not tilt...
-






Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: ben730 on February 21, 2015, 10:31:55 am
Yes, sorry, you are right. I made this test very quickly and
I had not a good tripod at home.........
But it shows how fragile the Nikon mechanism works.
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: kers on February 21, 2015, 11:00:07 am
I notice over and over again how difficult it is to do a valid test ...and to draw the right conclusions from it...
But indeed the TS mechanism of the Nikkors could be improved...
The lenses are made in the 12 MP era so doing still quite well...

Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: CptZar on February 21, 2015, 11:36:56 am
Ben thanks for sharing...
It is clear the zeiss wins hands down...also more shift...
But there is some problem i think with the 45PC- the center images seems OK.
when shifted - some parts that were sharp in the center image have become unsharp..? (look at the grass between the houses with the snow)

Diglloyd writes in his review of the 40 Zeiss Hartblei about stitching:

Start Quote
While overall imaging performance is very high, with especially appealing color, attention must be made to subtle shifts in focus when shift is applied. This makes the Hartblei 40/4 less than ideal for quick shift-lens-stitching applications.
End Quote

As far as I understand it, there will always be a focus shift implied once a shift or tilt movement was applied. Therefore focusing can only be done after any movement. For stitching this means every single shot needs refocusing.

The Zeiss CFE 4/40 looks much better.

Cheers

Jan
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: ben730 on February 21, 2015, 12:33:00 pm
I notice over and over again how difficult it is to do a valid test ...and to draw the right conclusions from it...

My conclusion is: I do with both lenses professional work and none let me down, never (!) and I use both a lot.
All pictures were always by far sharp enough for their points of use (magazines + advertising).
I choose my equipment often due to desire, mood and motivation.
Normally I am the limiting factor, not my equipment. :-\

 
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: marc aurel on February 21, 2015, 12:37:42 pm
Diglloyd writes in his review of the 40 Zeiss Hartblei about stitching:

Start Quote
While overall imaging performance is very high, with especially appealing color, attention must be made to subtle shifts in focus when shift is applied. This makes the Hartblei 40/4 less than ideal for quick shift-lens-stitching applications.
End Quote

As far as I understand it, there will always be a focus shift implied once a shift or tilt movement was applied. Therefore focusing can only be done after any movement. For stitching this means every single shot needs refocusing.

The Zeiss CFE 4/40 looks much better.

Cheers

Jan



@Jan:
I think that Diglloyd is not very clear in what he means with "focus shift". I suspect what he observed relates to field curvature.

As far as I understand it:
- the lens projects an image to the sensor.
- this projected image (and the focus in that image) does not change when you shift, you just use a different part of the image.
- if you stitch several images from different shift positions then you can capture a larger part of the projected image.
- but if a lens has field curvature, then the point of focus is different in the centre of the lens than further out
  (and most wideangle shift lenses with big image circles have very relevant field curvature, the Hartblei too)
- so in the shifted image, it SEEMS as if the focus point had moved (although you did not touch the focusing ring of the lens).
- the problem to get an image that is sharp across the whole stitched image is difficult because field curvature gets more relevant.

So if you refocus every shot - that would be something like focus stacking to overcome field curvature? Never tried it, but I think it is not easy to get the transitions done right. Maybe refocusing would slightly change magnification? Has any one of you tried that?

Marc
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: CptZar on February 21, 2015, 01:56:54 pm
Agreed, field curvature might be the reason why the focus appears to move. And I have to admit, that I never saw the problem of "virtual focus stacking" by refocusing. Quiet interesting point though. And even more pronounced in architecture than in landscape. But even if you take only one picture, field curvature kicks in, if you focus first and then shift the lens.

However I have to admit, that I am not a real fan of stitching anyway. In the landscape light usually changes rather fast, and stitching always means you might not be able to catch the "decisive moment", because instead of waiting for it you will fiddle around with your gear. Also I don't really see the requirement of stitching with sensors larger than 36MP. A perfect panorama 3:1 might be shoot with one cropped 17mm shot instead of 3x40mm. The result will be big enough for 99% of the required prints. But that's just a personal preference. Again this might be another game in architecture photography.

Cheers

Jan


Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on February 21, 2015, 02:11:07 pm
So if you refocus every shot - that would be something like focus stacking to overcome field curvature? Never tried it, but I think it is not easy to get the transitions done right. Maybe refocusing would slightly change magnification? Has any one of you tried that?

Hi Marc,

No problem for competent stitching applications that allow to optimize for 'focal length' per image. The focal length optimization allows to improve accuracy with respect to the nominal focal length (which only is valid for infinity focus). When the optimization is allowed to do that per individual image, the 'magnification' is applied variably.

But if one needs to do that per shifted image, it's almost easier to just use the center of the image and rotate camera and lens through the entrance pupil position, like with common stitching. That will describe a more circular in-focus path, but DOF is usually enough to deal with that. I wonder if DOF isn't enough with the stitched approach to cover field-curvature, unless one shoots almost wide open.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: 45mm tilt-shift lenses, canon or nikon?
Post by: marc aurel on February 21, 2015, 02:23:43 pm
@Bart

Thanks, I never tried that with a stitching application. Did not take much time with these programs, maybe I should try that.

Stitching can give you amazing resolution - but like Jan I am not such a great fan of stitching. I love to see the final composition in the viewfinder. So I usually only stitch in the very rare cases where I have a wall against my back and the TS-E 17 is not wide enough.
I would love to have more resolution at my hands without stitching. But 36MP is a lot already. Let's see how things look when the 50MP cameras arrive...

Cheers - Marc