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Author Topic: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)  (Read 44405 times)

Torbjörn Tapani

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Re:
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2014, 07:32:22 pm »

Just reading the article

" Some of the technology that went into the sensor came from CMOSIS’s experience in making 1.75 micron mobile phone camera chips and using extremely fine structures to maximize the already small photosensitive areas on those tiny sensors. One such tactic was utilizing copper to construct the conductive pathways (wires) in the sensor. "

So yes, mobile tech is far ahead. Samsung is at 65 nm with the nx1.
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Theodoros

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Re:
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2014, 11:47:58 am »

Just reading the article

" Some of the technology that went into the sensor came from CMOSIS’s experience in making 1.75 micron mobile phone camera chips and using extremely fine structures to maximize the already small photosensitive areas on those tiny sensors. One such tactic was utilizing copper to construct the conductive pathways (wires) in the sensor. "

So yes, mobile tech is far ahead. Samsung is at 65 nm with the nx1.

Does Samsung make MF photography sensors that Leica or Hassy or P1 may buy and use?  :'(  Pitty we miss all that cell phone quality!
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Chris Livsey

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Re:
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2014, 12:11:17 pm »

One such tactic was utilizing copper to construct the conductive pathways (wires) in the sensor. "

Using copper to conduct electricity, who'd have thought, whatever will they come up with next  ;D
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2014, 06:16:27 pm »

+1... LOL... They are smart, aren't they?
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2014, 07:01:55 pm »

+1... LOL... They are smart, aren't they?

Aw, c'mon, guys. Going from Al to Cu interconnects wasn't easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_interconnect

Jim

Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2014, 07:04:25 pm »

Aw, c'mon, guys. Going from Al to Cu interconnects wasn't easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_interconnect

Jim
Ι use silver for the (TAD) tweeters (only for that) of my horn speakers!  ;)
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hjulenissen

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2014, 02:28:54 am »

It is a conscious decision from Leica and for me personally this is a plus... I want to keep the versatility of being able to shoot handheld...
A 50 MP camera will not only be equally able to be shot hand-held, it will also offer a level of details that is at least as good as the 37MP camera *).

-h

*)Assuming all-else equal
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2014, 02:37:09 am »

Aw, c'mon, guys. Going from Al to Cu interconnects wasn't easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_interconnect

Jim

Apparently not ,not my field so shouldn't poke fun but the link says "The improvement in conductivity in going from earlier aluminium to copper based conductors was modest". I suppose modest gains are enough, like increasing pixel counts incrementally, for marketing purposes. Cynics hat on today.
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peterv

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2014, 03:34:34 am »

A 50 MP camera will not only be equally able to be shot hand-held, it will also offer a level of details that is at least as good as the 37MP camera *).

-h

*)Assuming all-else equal

Hi, than what do you make of Ming Thein's assumption/theory that "less pixels might actually produce a perceptually sharper/ crisper image for a given reproduction size, providing that this size is reasonable for the amount of resolution you’ve got in the smaller image."

It seems to me that Mr. Thein makes some valid practical points.

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/11/05/resolution-shot-discipline-image-quality/

BTW, I understand that a camera system's MTF will benefit from more MP's, but I think that Leica chose wisely, given the tech that is available to them at the moment.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 03:36:16 am by peterv »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2014, 04:22:43 am »

Hi, than what do you make of Ming Thein's assumption/theory that "less pixels might actually produce a perceptually sharper/ crisper image for a given reproduction size, providing that this size is reasonable for the amount of resolution you’ve got in the smaller image."

It seems to me that Mr. Thein makes some valid practical points.

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/11/05/resolution-shot-discipline-image-quality/

BTW, I understand that a camera system's MTF will benefit from more MP's, but I think that Leica chose wisely, given the tech that is available to them at the moment.

Hi,

I disagree with Ming Thein's opinion. His assumptions are probably based on his experience with poor quality tools for down-sampling  and sharpening. Good down-sampling will avoid the generation of some of the artifacts he mentions, and proper sharpening only benefits from having more pixels to work on.

Having fewer pixels will limit the larger output capabilities, while having more pixels does not limit smaller output capabilities.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2014, 04:34:54 am »

Apparently not ,not my field so shouldn't poke fun but the link says "The improvement in conductivity in going from earlier aluminium to copper based conductors was modest". I suppose modest gains are enough, like increasing pixel counts incrementally, for marketing purposes. Cynics hat on today.

The gain in conductivity is said to be modest. That doesn't mean that the net gain in output quality is not significant. Lower power requirements also lead to lower heat generation, and/or faster circuits, and may lead to lower needs for amplification. The new fabrication techniques that had to be developed may also lead the way to other materials being used.

This is not an incremental marketing opportunity, it is real technological progress.

Cheers,
Bart
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eronald

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2014, 06:37:01 am »

The gain in conductivity is said to be modest. That doesn't mean that the net gain in output quality is not significant. Lower power requirements also lead to lower heat generation, and/or faster circuits, and may lead to lower needs for amplification. The new fabrication techniques that had to be developed may also lead the way to other materials being used.

This is not an incremental marketing opportunity, it is real technological progress.

Cheers,
Bart

AFAIK copper has been one of the *major* breakthroughs in high-speed IC tech, kind of like when we photographers went from CCD to CMOS :)

But that doesn't necessarily mean either change is significant for photography ....

Edmund
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 06:42:08 am by eronald »
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hjulenissen

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2014, 08:20:34 am »

Hi, than what do you make of Ming Thein's assumption/theory that "less pixels might actually produce a perceptually sharper/ crisper image for a given reproduction size, providing that this size is reasonable for the amount of resolution you’ve got in the smaller image."

It seems to me that Mr. Thein makes some valid practical points.

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/11/05/resolution-shot-discipline-image-quality/

BTW, I understand that a camera system's MTF will benefit from more MP's, but I think that Leica chose wisely, given the tech that is available to them at the moment.
He lost me in the first sentence: "And I define a good result as one which the image is critically sharp at 100% actual-pixels view". That is not a "valid practical point". That is a theoretical view removing oneself from why (most of us) are using cameras in the first place.

If my old 8MP crop DSLR was "better" according to some theory than a state-of-the-art Nikon D800 due to having (possibly) sharper pixels, would images be better? If theory and practice contradicts, then that would make it a bad theory (at least applied to this particular problem).
Quote
Since 36 doesn’t divide cleanly into 24 – you get 1.5 old pixels per new one – there’s always going to be some guesswork as to precisely how that half pixel is allocated. And depending on the algorithm, any one of the following might happen – blur edges; stairstep artefacts; haloes or abrupt transitions; odd discontinuities in diagonal lines.
I don't think that this is a good description of how image scaling works. Yes, there are trade-offs, but "guesswork" is a bad choice of words. Assuming that the camera is a "Nyquistian sampler" (the more blurry images are at pixel level, the more true that approximation is) and that there is no camera noise (which is of course only an approximation), there really is not guesswork, the 2-dimensional (3 if we include color) continous "waveform" is really uniquely known, reproducible at any scale.

I would rather stress that a higher-resolution camera would have more scene-related information at its disposal (provided that total noise is not increased by shrinking sensels). Having more information can not be a bad thing (as long as it comes at zero cost, which is of course not true), and you can always reduce the amount of information later if need be.


There are many _practical_ reasons to avoid excessive resolution. It tends to add to storage, processing cost. It tends to reduce frame-rate. It might cause compromises in sensor/electronics that affects aspects of image quality negatively. I tend to believe that most of these reasons tends towards "less of a problem" as capacity of digital circuits and storage increase with time. There is also the question of what kind of lenses/technique is needed to fill that bandwidth with real information (as opposed to blur), and what print size/distance/eyesight is needed to appreciate the added info.

-h
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 08:53:18 am by hjulenissen »
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JV

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2014, 09:17:04 am »

A 50 MP camera will not only be equally able to be shot hand-held, it will also offer a level of details that is at least as good as the 37MP camera *).

-h

*)Assuming all-else equal

I have never shot with a 50MP camera but based upon my experience with the P30+ and the Leica S2 I probably would not feel very comfortable going above 40MP handheld.

Obviously only my opinion and likely to be different from person to person.
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Ken R

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2014, 10:03:30 am »

I have never shot with a 50MP camera but based upon my experience with the P30+ and the Leica S2 I probably would not feel very comfortable going above 40MP handheld.

Obviously only my opinion and likely to be different from person to person.


I shoot handheld all the time with my IQ160 (60mp) on the H1 w/80mm lens. 1/200 sec is most times enough for sharp images with that lens.

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2014, 12:21:02 pm »

I have never shot with a 50MP camera but based upon my experience with the P30+ and the Leica S2 I probably would not feel very comfortable going above 40MP handheld.

Obviously only my opinion and likely to be different from person to person.

It depends on the shutter speed (greatly helped by a smart Auto ISO implementation), accuracy of focus, high(er) ISO image quality and quality of mirror damping/shutter shock.

To give you one example, I have never had as many tack sharp images (when reviewed at 100% on screen) hand held with a camera before the D810, especially when using live view.

Regards,
Bernard

peterv

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2014, 12:59:20 pm »

I actually need at least 1/360-1/500 to be safe on my S2 with the 120mm, but I'm not particularly good at holding the camera steady. The other day I took some shots at 1/1000 with the same lens and going through the files at pixel level, I could see that some were tack-sharp while some others still showed a bit motion blur. I guess it all depends on the circumstances, that is why I always shoot a few extra for safety, if possible with static subjects. I don't think going from 37,5 to 50 MP would make much difference for me in this regard.

I'm really curious to see what the IQ of the S new sensor is going to be like compared to the 24x36 and 33x44 Sony sensors.

Thanks Bart and hjulenissen for the eleborate answer to my question.
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Joe Towner

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2014, 01:12:16 pm »

Hand held shooting is all about shutter speed, when it's fast enough, you're fine, all the way up to 80mp.  This is where the higher iso performance of the newer chips comes into play - shoot at ISO400+ and you're not breaking out the tripod as much.

Where it gets interesting is how the IS in the new Pentax 645 lenses does - 28-45/f4.5 and 90/f2.8 macro both have it, saying ~3.5 stops of IS.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2014, 02:14:37 pm »

Hi,

I have done some experiments on this:

The image below was taken on a Phase One P45+ using a Sonnar 150/4 at f/8 at 3.8m subject is a feather from a seabird I picked up close to my office. The Sonnar 150/4 is one of the best lenses for classic Hasselblad. The sensor has 6.8 micron pixels.


If you inspect the image closely you see that it has a lot of fake detail. It has hatched pattern that doesn't correspond to the natural strains. The image below is the same shot, enlarged twice for easier viewing:


I also photographed the same subject from the same tripod position, still using a 150 mm lens with a Sony Alpha 77 SLT, a camera with 3.8 micron pixels. The resulting image is shown below (at actual pixels, that is not enlarged):

It is pretty clear, in my humble opinion, that the 3.8 micron image is much cleaner.

Finally I reduced the 3.8 micron image to approximatively the same size as the 6.8 micron image from the P45+. The 3.8 micron image is still much clearer.

A 3.8 micron sensor of 45x30 mm size would have 93.5 MP. I would say that the above samples show that 93MP would have very clear benefits over 37MP. These samples were made with a 30 years or so old design from Zeiss and 70-400/4-5.6G zoom lens from Sony. The gain would be even more impressive on the Leica that is said to have some of the best designed lenses for medium format.

Best regards
Erik



Hi, than what do you make of Ming Thein's assumption/theory that "less pixels might actually produce a perceptually sharper/ crisper image for a given reproduction size, providing that this size is reasonable for the amount of resolution you’ve got in the smaller image."

It seems to me that Mr. Thein makes some valid practical points.

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/11/05/resolution-shot-discipline-image-quality/

BTW, I understand that a camera system's MTF will benefit from more MP's, but I think that Leica chose wisely, given the tech that is available to them at the moment.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 02:20:38 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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peterv

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2014, 02:49:26 pm »

Erik, thanks for showing these examples, again. They make quite clear that a future S (or any future camera, for that matter) would benifit from more sensels/resolving power. A 93,5 MP Leica S would be quite interesting for landscape, architecture and such.

Why Leica chose a 37,5 MP sensor for the new S, I don't know and I guess it will probably be enough resolution for most applications. I have a feeling that this is the best they can do at the moment, given the technology that is available to them at this point.

There are quite a few S photographers who'd have wanted more resolution, though. Maybe at PK'16 when CMOSIS have developed further, we'll see a 'high res' S to complement the 'high ISO' S.
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