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Author Topic: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)  (Read 43484 times)

JV

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Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« on: November 14, 2014, 11:08:13 pm »

Quite informative article IMO on the upcoming Leica S Typ 007:
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/11/why-leica-is-staying-at-37-5mp-for-the-s-typ-007/
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 10:55:25 pm by JV »
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gebseng

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2014, 06:24:42 am »

Wow, he says that their cmos sensor has virtually no color shift and no crosstalk. Would be great to have that in a digital back in a view cam ...

Best,

Gebhard
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2014, 07:01:28 am »

Hi,

Yes I agree. On the other hand, it makes little sense on a DSLR.

Best regards
Erik

Wow, he says that their cmos sensor has virtually no color shift and no crosstalk. Would be great to have that in a digital back in a view cam ...

Best,

Gebhard
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Erik Kaffehr
 

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2014, 07:11:48 am »

Belgian technology, French fab, german micro lenses and specs, who said Europeans can't work together? ;)

Speaking about the sensor of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 07:19:07 am by BernardLanguillier »
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mjrichardson

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2014, 07:34:17 am »

Why do you think it makes little sense on a DSLR Erik? The Leica has a tilt shift lens in the lineup and also is compatible with the Sinar P series, it seems like having a sensor with no colour shift or cross talk is exactly what is needed, unless I'm missing something from the technical/engineering side of things?

Mat



Hi,

Yes I agree. On the other hand, it makes little sense on a DSLR.

Best regards
Erik

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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2014, 08:03:03 am »

Hi Mat,

What you miss, is that distance between the exit pupil and the sensor is in all probability large because there needs to be place for the mirror.

On a camera without mirror that often is used with symmetrical lenses with exit pupil close to the sensor it makes sense to optimize the sensor for the large beam angles that may result, but much less so on an SLR. With SLR lenses there is simply no issue.

Tilting the lens may cause a problem, but again, SLR lenses used to have limited tilts. Indeed, Canon and Nikon T&S lenses work well on digital sensors, including the IQ-250.

So, the design of the CMOSIS sensor solves a problem on M-series Leicas and possibly studio type of cameras if Leica will make a sensor for Sinar. But that problem is simply not there with DSLRs.

The downside is really that competition is now at 50-80 MP, while the S-series is limited to 37.5 MP. The combination of sharp lenses and large pixels is also prone to moiré. Whenever you get moiré, colour or monochrome, it is a clear indication that the lens outresolves the sensor - showing fake detail instead of true detail.

Best regards
Erik



Why do you think it makes little sense on a DSLR Erik? The Leica has a tilt shift lens in the lineup and also is compatible with the Sinar P series, it seems like having a sensor with no colour shift or cross talk is exactly what is needed, unless I'm missing something from the technical/engineering side of things?

Mat



« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 08:12:18 am by ErikKaffehr »
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JV

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2014, 08:11:55 am »

The downside is really that competition is now at 50-80 MP, while the S-series is limited to 37.5 MP.

It is a conscious decision from Leica and for me personally this is a plus... I want to keep the versatility of being able to shoot handheld...



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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2014, 09:35:59 am »

The only current sensors for serious photography (FF and above) that use less than 6μm is the FF cameras of 36mp that use the Sony sensor of that resolution, the new 33x44mm Sony MF sensor and Dalsa 80mp sensor used on Leaf & P1 backs... 6 microns seems to be "perfect" for use in various different formats, from FF, up to FFMF... I believe that Leica (along with Cmosis) are working on a very serious project, that will be based on 6micron size, that will perform excellent at various sensitivities, will have extreme DR and will provide a common design base for sizes from 24x36mm up to 40.5x54mm that will be friendly even with Sinar cameras most extreme movements when using WAs...
I would expect both Leica to announce a new improved version of their FF 24mp Cmos sensor (which is exactly the same pixel pitch as the new Cmos 37.5mm S-sensor) and Sinar to announce a new MFDB with CMos sensor (and MS technology included) along or near the S-007 sales begin next spring...

I also believe that 99.99% of possible users choosing between either using Leica's 37.5mp or Sony's 50mp.... resolution will be the last that will affect their consideration... In fact, I believe more pros will think of Leica's lower resolution as a benefit rather than "disadvantage" as some suggest...

Additionally, I believe that on technical matters, engineers of Leica or Cmosis or Sony ...know more than "forum Einsteins of crap"!  ;)  ???

« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 09:42:14 am by Theodoros »
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buckshot

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2014, 09:43:14 am »

Why is Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007) ...

... so they can sell you a 50MP version in 2017!
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2014, 09:51:31 am »

Why is Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007) ...

... so they can sell you a 50MP version in 2017!
As they did with their CCD sensor eeeh? Which they keep constant to the same resolution from its introduction on....  :P
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bcooter

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2014, 10:00:39 am »

As they did with their CCD sensor eeeh? Which they keep constant to the same resolution from its introduction on....  :P

I agree.   

Leica has always played to a different clientele.

Les techno babble, latest and greatest, more this is how we make cameras . . . if you like them cool, if you don't . . . cool.

I know the S2 I have is he best built camera I own.   It's very well thought out and more workhorse than bling.  Use one and notice the way the battery and the usb connects and you'll get it.

IMO

BC


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mjrichardson

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2014, 10:48:58 am »

Haha, I thought there'd be some technical reason I'd miss or rather not be interested in.

Now as a photographer, I am happy for Leica to go the way they are going, the S 006 has been in my hands for 4 days and it is easily the most straight forward camera I have ever used, I am throwing it at everything, commercial shoots alongside my Nikons and personal stuff and without fail, the S has dealt with everything. I haven't had it long enough to understand it fully and know how it reacts in every situation but as someone who prints large with my own printer in my own studio, there is nothing lacking resolution wise for my work. If the new S handles and produces files in the same way but with better high ISO performance then it's going to be difficult to find fault with it, regardless of the not-necessary technology!

Anyway, my practical experiences of using the equipment is in no way a match for your excellent theory so I will let you get on with it.

Have a nice evening!

Mat



Hi Mat,

What you miss, is that distance between the exit pupil and the sensor is in all probability large because there needs to be place for the mirror.

On a camera without mirror that often is used with symmetrical lenses with exit pupil close to the sensor it makes sense to optimize the sensor for the large beam angles that may result, but much less so on an SLR. With SLR lenses there is simply no issue.

Tilting the lens may cause a problem, but again, SLR lenses used to have limited tilts. Indeed, Canon and Nikon T&S lenses work well on digital sensors, including the IQ-250.

So, the design of the CMOSIS sensor solves a problem on M-series Leicas and possibly studio type of cameras if Leica will make a sensor for Sinar. But that problem is simply not there with DSLRs.

The downside is really that competition is now at 50-80 MP, while the S-series is limited to 37.5 MP. The combination of sharp lenses and large pixels is also prone to moiré. Whenever you get moiré, colour or monochrome, it is a clear indication that the lens outresolves the sensor - showing fake detail instead of true detail.

Best regards
Erik



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tjv

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2014, 04:30:48 pm »

While this is an interesting read, it's pretty much an exercise in marketing. For one, many of the features listed for the 006 / 007 are also true for other systems. As for the "no sensor vignetting, no color shifts" statement, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the M240 detect the lens used (either using the optical sensor on the lens mount or by manually inputting it) and apply some corrections to the RAW file? The sensor might be better than others at handling no retrofocus lenses, but saying there is zero sensor vignetting or color shifts might be an overstatement? I've demoed the S system three times now and, despite the 3x2 ratio sensor, I think it's the best integrated DMF (just) system on offer. Personally though, I will only buy the system when it has a plus 60mpx sensor as I'd want to crop to 4x3 or 4x5 aspect ratios and need to print large.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2014, 04:48:05 pm »

I also believe that 99.99% of possible users choosing between either using Leica's 37.5mp or Sony's 50mp.... resolution will be the last that will affect their consideration... In fact, I believe more pros will think of Leica's lower resolution as a benefit rather than "disadvantage" as some suggest...

It could be argued that Leica and the companies using Sony sensors (MF or FF) have made the exact same choice, which is to re-use a proven sensor technology/architecture (used in the M240/a7r) and scale that technology to a larger sensor keeping everything else pretty much the same.

Looking at it from that angle, comparing the "pixels" of the sensor used in the a7r and those of the M240 pretty tells us everything we need to know, doesn't it?

My personal view is that the key strength of the S system is the lenses so have a sensor which performs as well as the competition is enough to deliver overall a very appealing proposition from a performance standpoint (leaving price aside).

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 05:30:34 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2014, 05:00:19 pm »

It could be argued that Leica and the companies using Sony sensors (MF or FF) have made the exact same choice, which is to re-use a proven sensor technology/architecture (used in the M240/D810) and scale that technology to a larger sensor keeping everything else pretty much the same.

Let's hope they don't port over the raw black point algorithm that produces the M240 "green shadows" problem.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6717

Jim

Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2014, 05:21:30 pm »

It could be argued that Leica and the companies using Sony sensors (MF or FF) have made the exact same choice, which is to re-use a proven sensor technology/architecture (used in the M240/D810) and scale that technology to a larger sensor keeping everything else pretty much the same.

Looking at it from that angle, comparing the "pixels" of the sensor used in the D810 and those of the M240 pretty tells us everything we need to know, doesn't it?

My personal view is that the key strength of the S system is the lenses so have a sensor which performs as well as the competition is enough to deliver overall a very appealing proposition from a performance standpoint (leaving price aside).

Cheers,
Bernard

The Sony 50mp sensor doesn't have the same pixel pitch as the D810 sensor... it's 10% larger... I don't see how comparing M240 with D810 tells us anything... M240 is optimised for "street" while D810 for tripod use... S 007 will obviously be optimised for the same applications as Sony's 50mp sensor.
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Theodoros

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2014, 05:37:12 pm »

Personally, I believe that Sony's 50mp analysis was THE FIRST pre decided requirement of the design... They didn't design the sensor for optimum performance and let the resolution to whatever it comes to (either more or less) but they did whatever best they could for that pre decided resolution... Why do I believe that the above is correct? Simply because there was no other resolution choice as to fit the sensor in Leaf, Phase One or Hasselblad line...  Think about it... 40mp 33x44 was already occupied by the "entrance" models and 60mp or more by the FF market of CCD sensors...

Then the sensor HAD TO BE of 44x33mm because of Pentax....
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 05:39:58 pm by Theodoros »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007)
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2014, 06:29:49 pm »

Ok, the pixels of Sony 50mp may be a little better than those of the a7r. I don't believe it makes a big difference, it is the same technology.

Cheers,
Bernard

Torbjörn Tapani

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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2014, 07:05:08 pm »

Interesting to note that again the advances in sensor tech comes from the mobile side. Copper and a 0.09 micron process with shallow wells. A little behind Samsung but ahead of the others for now.
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Jim Kasson

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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2014, 07:13:40 pm »

Interesting to note that again the advances in sensor tech comes from the mobile side. Copper and a 0.09 micron process with shallow wells. A little behind Samsung but ahead of the others for now.

Sensors are a different world from regular CMOS. There, 90 nanometer features are a decade old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/90_nanometer

Here's a mobile sensor built with a 65nm process:

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20140828005224/en/Himax-Imaging-Chooses-TowerJazz-Panasonic-Semiconductor%E2%80%99s-State#.VGfvKcmZGO4

Jim
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 07:22:46 pm by Jim Kasson »
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