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Author Topic: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.  (Read 53534 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #120 on: September 16, 2014, 04:13:36 pm »

Hi,

I guess that "your mileage may vary", I guess many of us prefer a well working AF instead of life long training of manual focus. I have seen examples of great MF images, but that is a skill that not anyone has.

Best regards
Erik

Quote
Stuck inside on my back end. Otherwise, I would be out shooting.

Melchior, I like manual focus for many situations, but simultaneously panning and focusing manually is a PITA, and there is no question that for non-predictable action (non-zone-focusable action), reliable autofocus is a godsend. Really good sports and wildlife photographers got great long telephoto shots in the old days, but the great shots tended to be zone focused set-ups, or otherwise the rare virtuoso technology-unassisted captures.

This is hilarious in the extreme. I do it all the time.
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melchiorpavone

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #121 on: September 16, 2014, 04:17:26 pm »

Would a Canon 200-400mm f/2-f/4 be feasible to build?

Probably not.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #122 on: September 16, 2014, 09:12:47 pm »

Nonsense. Manual focus is better.

With a film camera perhaps. My old 600mm f5.6 manual focus Nikkor was designed for that.

When you are trying to tap into AA filter less 36mp resolution on anything that moves 6-8 meters away at f2.8 in pretty low light, no way.



Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 09:16:52 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #123 on: September 16, 2014, 09:14:12 pm »

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=93032.0

all manual focus

Very nice images and tack sharp also, but those birds were mostly not moving, correct?

Cheers,
Bernard

melchiorpavone

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #124 on: September 16, 2014, 10:18:15 pm »

Very nice images and tack sharp also, but those birds were mostly not moving, correct?

Cheers,
Bernard


I was going to say the same thing. Let's see some moving subject matter.
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telyt

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #125 on: September 16, 2014, 11:00:29 pm »

Very nice images and tack sharp also, but those birds were mostly not moving, correct?

You're kidding, right?  When perched a hummingbird is in constant motion, is often perched for only a second or two, and the DOF is so scant that the photographer has to decide which part of the eye to focus on.  Try photographing them sometime.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 11:13:56 pm by wildlightphoto »
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telyt

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #126 on: September 16, 2014, 11:06:02 pm »

I was going to say the same thing. Let's see some moving subject matter.















There's no magic or supernatural powers involved, but it takes a good viewfinder and well-designed lens focus control.  CaNikon have gotten away with their sh!tty viewfinders because most people now haven't seen a good one for comparison, and more than enough has been written about the poor suitability of AF lenses for manual focus.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 11:15:33 pm by wildlightphoto »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #127 on: September 16, 2014, 11:35:30 pm »

There's no magic or supernatural powers involved, but it takes a good viewfinder and well-designed lens focus control.  CaNikon have gotten away with their sh!tty viewfinders because most people now haven't seen a good one for comparison, and more than enough has been written about the poor suitability of AF lenses for manual focus.

Nice, I stand corrected, you are able to do it. I know I wouldn't.

What equipment are you using for these if I may ask?

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #128 on: September 17, 2014, 12:02:31 am »

As far as I know lenses and SLRs by Leica, hands and eyes by God.

Erik





Nice, I stand corrected, you are able to do it. I know I wouldn't.

What equipment are you using for these if I may ask?

Cheers,
Bernard

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Petrus

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #129 on: September 17, 2014, 12:51:37 am »

About manually focusing: I once attended a lecture given by a famous Sports Illustrated photographer. He said that he still uses only manual focus, even though he was a Nikon sponsored shooter with truckloads of newest gear. What was most interesting was that he practices focusing for 20-30 minutes every day. He said it was like playing an instrument, it has to come naturally and it can not be done reliably without constant practice. So every day he takes out a long telephoto and practices on moving subjects.

Manual focusing has gotten more difficult with the modern cameras which are designed for AF only. In the "good" old times I had a full matte focusing screen on my Canon F1 without any focusing aids, it worked perfectly for me. I miss it sometimes, but fortunately not too often...
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Petrus

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #130 on: September 17, 2014, 12:56:19 am »

Probably not.

Probably true. Still there seems to be the attitude that 200-560 f/2.8-5.6 zoom would be an amateur thing with variable aperture, but a 200-400 f/4 & 280-560 f/5.6 combined is a true professional instrument, constant aperture (wow!) with built in extenders and all…
 
(yes I know it could be f/2 at the 200mm end with that front lens diameter, but I try not to ask for the impossible, just give me something remotely possible).
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #131 on: September 17, 2014, 01:07:22 am »

Hi,

I would say that modern lenses are difficult to focus manually, too. Manual focusing requires an appropriate throw on the focusing ring, to little or to much makes MF difficult.

Personally, I am a strong adherent of magnified LV focusing, but it would not be usable for subject that moves fast. There have been a lot of progress in AF, and there is still progress to be made. The major issue is still probably that the camera does not know the intended point of focus.

Focusing accuracy improves all the time and with mirrorless/LV we now have on sensor phase detection and contrast sensing AF. Phase detection for speed and contrast sensing for precision.

Best regards
Erik




About manually focusing: I once attended a lecture given by a famous Sports Illustrated photographer. He said that he still uses only manual focus, even though he was a Nikon sponsored shooter with truckloads of newest gear. What was most interesting was that he practices focusing for 20-30 minutes every day. He said it was like playing an instrument, it has to come naturally and it can not be done reliably without constant practice. So every day he takes out a long telephoto and practices on moving subjects.

Manual focusing has gotten more difficult with the modern cameras which are designed for AF only. In the "good" old times I had a full matte focusing screen on my Canon F1 without any focusing aids, it worked perfectly for me. I miss it sometimes, but fortunately not too often...
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Erik Kaffehr
 

melchiorpavone

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #132 on: September 17, 2014, 09:45:56 am »

Nice, I stand corrected, you are able to do it. I know I wouldn't.

What equipment are you using for these if I may ask?

Cheers,
Bernard


Of course you could. It's not hard at all. Learning to walk was harder, I assure you.
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telyt

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #133 on: September 18, 2014, 09:41:28 pm »

What equipment are you using for these if I may ask?

Leica R8 with DMR, Leica-R lenses (a 40-year-old 560mm f/6.8 and a 20-year-old 280mm f/4 APO with or without extenders), shoulder stock, 62-year-old eyes & hands.

No front- or back-focus issues, no left-side errors, no micro adjustment needed, no grabbing the near wingtip instead of the eye, not confused by busy backgrounds, no distinction between cross-type and non-cross-type focus points, no need to 'upgrade' to the latest equipment that is supposed to reduce these problems, and an infinite number of focus points covering the entire picture area all with the same sensitivity and usable at all apertures.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 09:58:29 pm by wildlightphoto »
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melchiorpavone

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #134 on: September 18, 2014, 10:09:55 pm »

Leica R8 with DMR, Leica-R lenses (a 40-year-old 560mm f/6.8 and a 20-year-old 280mm f/4 APO with or without extenders), shoulder stock, 62-year-old eyes & hands.

No front- or back-focus issues, no left-side errors, no micro adjustment needed, no grabbing the near wingtip instead of the eye, not confused by busy backgrounds, no distinction between cross-type and non-cross-type focus points, no need to 'upgrade' to the latest equipment that is supposed to reduce these problems, and an infinite number of focus points covering the entire picture area all with the same sensitivity and usable at all apertures.

Just make sure the lenses are clean and you're good to go!

We don't need no stinkin' autofocus!

http://youtu.be/VqomZQMZQCQ

Less is more.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 10:11:48 pm by melchiorpavone »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #135 on: September 18, 2014, 11:08:41 pm »

Leica R8 with DMR, Leica-R lenses (a 40-year-old 560mm f/6.8 and a 20-year-old 280mm f/4 APO with or without extenders), shoulder stock, 62-year-old eyes & hands.

Thanks for the info.

I had never thought of using my Leitax F mount converted 280mm f4 APO that way, but it is worth a try.

I have some doubts about optimal focusing though because, on the D800, I could see a clear difference between VF focusing accuracy and live view focusing accuracy on... static subjects... but I'll give it a try anyway. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

telyt

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #136 on: September 19, 2014, 12:53:57 am »


I had never thought of using my Leitax F mount converted 280mm f4 APO that way, but it is worth a try.

I have some doubts about optimal focusing though because, on the D800, I could see a clear difference between VF focusing accuracy and live view focusing accuracy on... static subjects... but I'll give it a try anyway. ;)


This is one of the reasons I have such a low opinion of CaNikon viewfinders.  Focussing screen accuracy isn't a priority for the camera makers because people think manual focus is too difficult - and they're right, manual focus is difficult, because the viewfinders are so bad.  Chicken/egg.

Shimming might help a little but for accurate focus over the entire picture area the mirror must first be aligned correctly before the view screen is aligned.  Again, not a high priority for the mainstream camera makers because it doesn't sell widgets as easily as counting pixels or fps or ISO ratings does.

This is one of the benefits of mirrorless cameras - no mirror box calibration problems.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #137 on: September 19, 2014, 01:31:08 am »

This is one of the reasons I have such a low opinion of CaNikon viewfinders.  Focussing screen accuracy isn't a priority for the camera makers because people think manual focus is too difficult - and they're right, manual focus is difficult, because the viewfinders are so bad.  Chicken/egg.

Shimming might help a little but for accurate focus over the entire picture area the mirror must first be aligned correctly before the view screen is aligned.  Again, not a high priority for the mainstream camera makers because it doesn't sell widgets as easily as counting pixels or fps or ISO ratings does.

This is one of the benefits of mirrorless cameras - no mirror box calibration problems.

Indeed.

If it is not too much asking, out of a typical sequence of action, how would you estimate your success rate in terms of totally satisfactory images from a technical standpoint?

Cheers,
Bernard

telyt

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #138 on: September 19, 2014, 06:11:41 am »


If it is not too much asking, out of a typical sequence of action, how would you estimate your success rate in terms of totally satisfactory images from a technical standpoint?


It's hard to say what's typical.  Sometimes 100% (Ibis, Egrets & Goldeneye duck above), more often about 50% (goose & falcon above) or as low as 10% with flight shots of hummingbirds.  Aside from keeping the bird in the field of view, the biggest technical problem with my flight shots of hummingbirds is DOF, there isn't any and it's not good enough to have some part of the bird in focus.  I want the eye to be in focus.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 06:16:06 am by wildlightphoto »
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allegretto

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Re: The Canon Vs NikonSony and the future sensor tecnology.
« Reply #139 on: September 19, 2014, 07:41:57 am »

It's hard to say what's typical.  Sometimes 100% (Ibis, Egrets & Goldeneye duck above), more often about 50% (goose & falcon above) or as low as 10% with flight shots of hummingbirds.  Aside from keeping the bird in the field of view, the biggest technical problem with my flight shots of hummingbirds is DOF, there isn't any and it's not good enough to have some part of the bird in focus.  I want the eye to be in focus.

you can't beat that with AF of any camera I'm familiar with. Maybe the new Canon 7D II will come close, but then you have to worry about primary focus point chosen by chip-brain

Do you "lead" your focus by varying amounts depending on experience or do you go for smack on and high shutter speed?
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