Pages: 1 ... 16 17 [18] 19 20 ... 27   Go Down

Author Topic: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic  (Read 124392 times)

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #340 on: August 26, 2014, 04:00:02 pm »

These are the responses that I cannot see any longer using the link provided in post #1.
Shame. I did log out of Google and a lot of comments disappear, including one I posted to Will's video:

Quote

This is another example of a video from Fong and company that get the technical aspects of the subject completely wrong. The message has merit (if you don’t know the difference between sRGB and Adobe RGB (1998), set your camera to sRGB for JPEG). The issue so many people have with these video’s isn’t about workflow, it is about how the presenters get their facts so utterly wrong and in the process confuse their audience and make themselves look foolish. Color management is a complex topic, there is no excuse for dumbing it down so much that the bits and pieces of the presentation are technically flat out wrong.

If I or someone else produced a video on photography and stated that a 180mm lens is a longer focal length than a 200mm lens, Will, Gary and anyone else who knows the facts could and should point the error out and the video should be fixed. This is called peer review. It isn’t personal not that Gary didn’t take such comments that way and we’ll see about Will.

Case in point. If Will is going to steal my analog of color spaces and balloons, at least get it right and don’t say something that is utterly silly; the distance between pixels gets larger? NO. Open the same document in sRGB and Adobe RGB (1998) within Photoshop, zoom in as far as you can. There is no difference between the distance of the pixels whatever that is supposed to mean. Will either doesn’t understand the concept or can’t explain it. Will, don’t take this personally. The distance is between colors, not pixels! The distance is the colorimetric distance between two colors of close values such as Red 201/Green 1/Blue 1 and Red 200/Green 2/Blue 1. The deltaE (color difference) larger in Adobe RGB than sRGB. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with pixels. Just as Adobe RGB (1998) doesn’t have MORE colors than sRGB encoded the same. Gary refuses to accept these facts. You don’t have to go down that path but if you do, you’ll only have yourself to blame. And a responsibility to your audience which is really the greatest harm you do by getting the facts mangled.

Telling an audience the distance between pixels is larger is as incorrect as saying a 180mm lens has a longer focal length than a 200mm lens. Would you ever say that Will? I hope not.

In the last train wreck of a video on color from Gary, at least a dozen different people both on his site and in the Luminous Landscape forums pointed out his errors. Are all these people wrong and Gary right? Consider not a single person came to back up the fallacies of Gary's expect perhaps (perhaps?) Will Crockett in this one video. Where is the peer review?

For lurkers who wonder, is Will and Gary correct? Are all the other people just jealous or mad at them? NO! We believe a complex technical subject such as color management and color theory should be presented correctly and based on facts and correct color theory. You're not getting that from these two presenters.

We could go into the other mistakes in Will's video above and beyond his balloon analogy. That can wait for now, let's see how Will reacts to this and other posts here that have suggested while his message has merit, the facts presented are far from correct and accurate. Even what he says about labs demanding sRGB, is inaccurate (Bay Photo and White House will gladly accept Adobe RGB unless their web site is wrong and Will is correct). You'd think he'd check that before committing such a comment to video.

Will, have you read the pages upon pages of posts on LuLa color management forum dismissing Gary's video you are defending? You should as should others IF they really want to know if what Gary is proposing is based on sound color management and color theory (he isn't):
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=92767.300
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

MarkM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 428
    • Alaska Photographer Mark Meyer
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #341 on: August 26, 2014, 04:45:20 pm »

It seems he's deleted most of the critical comments.

My comment that I probably should have just passed on:

Quote
I appreciate the you are trying to make this concept accessible to people. But you are totally wrong on the details. It starts here:
"…the colors at both ends of the rainbow are the same. The difference between AdobeRGB and sRGB is that there's more colors in between."

This is demonstrably false. The colors at the extremes of each color space are not the same. A key part of the definition of color spaces is that they have different primaries. The reddest red of AdobeRGB is a different color than reddest red of sRGB. The same is true fro green and blue. The second part is also wrong. There are precisely the same number of colors in AdobeRGB as there are in sRGB. Each channel goes from 0-255 giving you precisely 2^24 (16.8 million) colors in each space. If you want a greater number of colors you need to move to high bit depth such as 16bit RGB. This is a very basic misunderstanding and is going to confuse people and set them in the wrong direction.

Another thing thing that is going confuse people is suggesting they set their monitor profile to sRGB and or AdobeRGB. This is never the right the thing to do and even using it for demonstration purposes is confusing at best.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if you can't do the color math to go from RGB to XYZ to LAB on the back of a napkin, you probably shouldn't be giving people technical explanations.

and his response:

Quote
+Mark Meyer you're completely wrong when you say there are the same number of colors in sRGB vs AdobeRGB.  I found this great video showing a 3d color frame sRGB has about 900k colors.  This is pretty basic, and most everybody knows that the data points between colors is more diverse in AdobeRGB which has 1.3M colors, or 45% more.  This video is really interesting until he gets to the end at 2:13 then there's some errors.  Introducing sony-a7r.com

I didn't tell anybody to set their monitor to anything.  What I was showing was a wide gamut file going into a narrow space.  The principle here in this video was this - many people complain that as soon as they change their setting to AdobeRGB, their colors get dull.  I did not mean to say the colors at each end of the spectrum were the identical value, what I meant was, you'll get all of your reds, all of your violets when staying in the same width of color space.

I'm still not sure where those numbers — 1.3M and 900K — come from. Considering an 8bit image has 1.7M possible values, it suggests that I should be able to find 300K AdobeRGB triplets that are somehow not in AdobeRGB and 700K sRGB values (almost half of the available values) that aren't sRGB colors. It makes zero sense. I asked if he would provide just one of the 300K adobeRGB triplets, but he didn't.
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #342 on: August 26, 2014, 04:49:40 pm »

I'm still not sure where those numbers — 1.3M and 900K — come from.
Gamut volume report from ColorThink. He of course deleted the post I made he didn't understand about what those numbers represent.
Nearly all my original posts are gone too if I log off Google.
So while Gary is so sure he's right and we are all wrong, he's spineless enough to delete posts from those who disagree with his flat earth ideas about color.
Maybe he will not reappear here after all.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

MarkM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 428
    • Alaska Photographer Mark Meyer
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #343 on: August 26, 2014, 04:54:05 pm »

Gamut volume report from ColorThink.

Makes about as much sense as figuring out how many different speeds my car can go by measuring the circumference of the speedometer.
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #344 on: August 26, 2014, 05:03:54 pm »

Makes about as much sense as figuring out how many different speeds my car can go by measuring the circumference of the speedometer.
Exactly. He's seeing a numeric value that has nothing to do with the number of colors but is sure it has everything to do with the number of colors.

In one post I tried to explain that the larger values of the two reports do not backup his silly understanding that Adobe RGB has more colors than sRGB. I told him that it is like looking at a yardstick and saying it is smaller than 36 inches because 1 yard is using a smaller number than 36 inches. He of course didn't get it. And there is the rub. He goes to another video site that showed the gamut volume report from ColorThink that stated Adobe RGB has more colors than sRGB. That site was wrong too. Rather than examine the facts provided, since the one incorrect site backs up what he believes to be true, it's true in his tiny brain.

I provided information from the ColorThink's Wiki that explains the report and pointed out that no where does it say the volume has anything to do with the number of colors. He ignored that. Then I suggested that a 48-bit file has more addressable possible colors than a 24-bit file, but no where when viewing the gamut of a profile does bit depth ever come into play. So was the report based on one bit depth or the other? Answer: neither. He didn't get it. Lastly I suggested that believing that the gamut volume report showed bigger numbers between the Adobe and sRGB color space equates to one having more colors was like believing that a gallon of milk has more colors than a quart of water. He still didn't get it.  
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 05:07:53 pm by digitaldog »
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

Hans Kruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2106
    • Hans Kruse Photography
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #345 on: August 26, 2014, 05:07:28 pm »

This crusade starts to be a standup comic by itself, I'm afraid  ;D Those who don't understand it will never and those who do have understood from the first postings.... So what's the big point in continuing?

fdisilvestro

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1852
    • Frank Disilvestro
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #346 on: August 26, 2014, 05:10:15 pm »

Does anybody in this forum believe that Gary is going to admit he was wrong and rectify?

Sorry friends, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN

- he has been successful running business
- arrogant
- full of pride

This is what I call the CEO mindset, he will never admit being wrong, no matter what. All he is doing is damage control of this little crisis where the opponents are just a few technocrats here and his supporters are an audience of people not interested in color management theory. That's why he will edit or censor comments, invite to interviews, etc.

- His advise is correct and most of us agree (use sRGB if you don't know anything about)
- His evidence (contrived or not) is also right (an image in Adobe RGB will look desaturated in a color-unmanaged environment
- What is wrong is the "why", which is complete nonsense, but unfortunately many will not care or will not understand anyway.

As I said before, this is a hopeless case

Regards

MarkM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 428
    • Alaska Photographer Mark Meyer
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #347 on: August 26, 2014, 05:16:25 pm »

is correct and most of us agree (use sRGB if you don't know anything about)
- His evidence (contrived or not) is also right (an image in Adobe RGB will look desaturated in a color-unmanaged environment

This evidence is actually just a coincidence that occurs when going from wide spaces to narrow in non-managed environments. Any large space will desaturate when assigned the profile of a smaller space. And sRGB will desaturate if assigned a still smaller space. I experience the opposite effect when seeing sRGB on a wide gamut monitor — the result is hyper-saturated with unmanaged sRGB images but looks pretty close to normal with an AdobeRGB image.

Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #348 on: August 26, 2014, 05:18:53 pm »

Does anybody in this forum believe that Gary is going to admit he was wrong and rectify?
No and as I pointed out, the paper trail here isn't about trying to educate Gray, he's beyond help. It is to provide a rebuttal to anyone who might question if Gary is full of crap; the consensus here is, he is.
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

fdisilvestro

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1852
    • Frank Disilvestro
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #349 on: August 26, 2014, 05:22:09 pm »

This evidence is actually just a coincidence that occurs when going from wide spaces to narrow in non-managed environments. Any large space will desaturate when assigned the profile of a smaller space. And sRGB will desaturate if assigned a still smaller space. I experience the opposite effect when seeing sRGB on a wide gamut monitor — the result is hyper-saturated with unmanaged sRGB images but looks pretty close to normal with an AdobeRGB image.



You're absolutely right. I wrongly assumed that anybody who has a wide gamut monitor will have it in a color managed environment and oversimplified my previous comment

MarkM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 428
    • Alaska Photographer Mark Meyer
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #350 on: August 26, 2014, 05:23:59 pm »

You're absolutely right. I wrongly assumed that anybody who has a wide gamut monitor will have it in a color managed environment and oversimplified my previous comment

Yes — that's probably a safe assumption. Still, when I watched a bit of that Will Crockett video, he looked like a tomato.
Logged

Eyeball

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 150
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #351 on: August 26, 2014, 05:53:00 pm »

I provided information from the ColorThink's Wiki that explains the report and pointed out that no where does it say the volume has anything to do with the number of colors. He ignored that.

Actually, Andrew, I think he touched on something that is almost correct in a certain way, although it gets into some very esoteric concepts that he has repeatedly said he doesn't want to get into for his audience.  I also think it was accidental on his part and just part of his desperate, random copying and pasting from every Googled site he could come across that looked like it remotely agreed with him (ironically something he criticized everyone else for pretty much at the beginning).

Here is where I think he accidentally touched on something that could be considered "correct":

If you are talking about "uniquely identifiable colors" as identified by a human being, then since AdobeRGB has a wider gamut and since there is a limit to the color differences that can be perceived by a human, then one might say that AdobeRGB can contain more uniquely-identifiable colors than sRGB.

This is hinted at in the ColorWiki where it explains the Gamut Volume number:
"The gamut volume number here represents cubic Lab values. This provides a reasonable approximation of the number of uniquely perceptible colors contained in a device's color gamut. This is intended for relative comparison purposes only."

It's even kind of interesting to note that the approximations that the Profile Inspector provides are much less than even what 24-bit RGB would provide.

There are several important caveats that I see, however, that prevent someone from saying that AdobeRGB "has more colors":
  • I assume that when "perceptible" is used, it is referring to a human being.  There can still be many more colors correctly recorded; they just won't necessary be perceived as different by a human viewer.
  • The non-perceptible colors can become perceptible as the image is edited.
  • And even if you say that you are basing your statement on "uniquely perceptible colors", you still can't say AdobeRGB has more colors; you have to say that AdobeRGB can contain more colors.  It's like trying to say a big parking lot has more cars than a small one.  You can't say that.  You have to say that a big parking lot has the ability to hold more cars than a small one.

All of this just reflects my limited understanding so I'm completely open to corrections and clarifications.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 05:56:31 pm by Eyeball »
Logged

Hans Kruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2106
    • Hans Kruse Photography
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #352 on: August 26, 2014, 05:57:28 pm »

No and as I pointed out, the paper trail here isn't about trying to educate Gray, he's beyond help. It is to provide a rebuttal to anyone who might question if Gary is full of crap; the consensus here is, he is.

So then it's done and we can move on, right?

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #353 on: August 26, 2014, 06:02:52 pm »

So then it's done and we can move on, right?

Oh, no way, Hans!

What would we bitch and argue about then? Cruel Bernard closed the Israeli-Palestinian thread recently, so what else to do? Go to Ferguson? Too late, it apparently calmed down quicker than this thread. ;)

Hans Kruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2106
    • Hans Kruse Photography
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #354 on: August 26, 2014, 06:04:49 pm »

Oh, no way, Hans!

What would we bitch and argue about then? Cruel Bernard closed the Israeli-Palestinian thread recently, so what else to do? Go to Ferguson? Too late, it apparently calmed down quicker than this thread. ;)

Can I suggest Prophoto RGB versus Adobe RGB?!

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #355 on: August 26, 2014, 06:18:11 pm »

There are several important caveats that I see, however, that prevent someone from saying that AdobeRGB "has more colors":
Yes indeed. What constitutes a color in this context? For example, the encoding of just 24 bit's of color could define 16.7 million colors, I don't know anyone who suggests we can see anything like that number of colors as they are not distinct enough to be different to the human observer.
If one captures a gray card in both sRGB and Adobe RGB (1998), now what?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 06:22:01 pm by digitaldog »
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #356 on: August 26, 2014, 06:19:14 pm »

So then it's done and we can move on, right?
Yes, you have permission to move on.
Are you suggesting the tread be locked? Before we give Gary a chance to come back and tell us all about his new video and how sRGB won?
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

garyfong

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 37
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #357 on: August 26, 2014, 08:28:26 pm »

OK we made prints!  There was a visible difference in the AdobeRGB file printed on AdobeRGB dry process.  The AdobeRGB had richer saturation, visibly richer saturation.  The AdobeRGB printed on sRGB of course had duller colors, as one would expect.  So, in order of color richness, it was 1)AdobeRGB, 2) sRGB and 3) AdobeRGB on sRGB.

This is exactly what I expected, as I mentioned in the video.  The AdobeRGB is the choice IF you have the equipment to express it.  To go further,

We also did a number of web tests with both Windows and Macs.  At the lab, they had a wide gamut monitor, and I have a Mac Thunderbolt monitor.  On Safari for Mac, AdobeRGB looked better than sRGB, but on Windows it looked worse.  On Firefox and Chrome on both formats, the AdobeRGB looked worse.

We're now doing tests on our mobile devices and uploads to Facebook.  I will do a video on YouTube to show all of these results.

One thing that is probably going to drive people crazy is that if a photographer wants to show their images in the best presentation, there almost should be a button on their websites to redirect to the "Safari for Mac" version of the website, because as far as I can tell, it is the only color aware browser. 

Windows Safari says it is, but the AdobeRGB image looked visibly more dull.
Logged

digitaldog

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 20630
  • Andrew Rodney
    • http://www.digitaldog.net/
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #358 on: August 26, 2014, 08:37:11 pm »

The AdobeRGB printed on sRGB of course had duller colors, as one would expect.
You didn't treat the data correctly.
Quote
The AdobeRGB is the choice IF you have the equipment to express it.  
All equipment will express it. If you read Czornyj's post (Reply #306), some will not allow you to send that data to the front end. There's a big difference between the two! It would be useful if you understood that. The native color space of this and all other printers isn't anything like sRGB!
Quote
One thing that is probably going to drive people crazy is that if a photographer wants to show their images in the best presentation, there almost should be a button on their websites to redirect to the "Safari for Mac" version of the website, because as far as I can tell, it is the only color aware browser.  
Incorrect. There are a number of color managed browsers (such as FireFox) but you have to configure color management which obviously you didn't do.
http://www.gballard.net/psd/go_live_page_profile/embeddedJPEGprofiles.html
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 08:40:42 pm by digitaldog »
Logged
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Author "Color Management for Photographers".

supercurio

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 58
  • Hi! New here
    • Google+
Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #359 on: August 26, 2014, 08:43:40 pm »

Personally, to try quickly a browser I like the Petapixel example is it leaves no doubt thanks to the funky profile used.
http://petapixel.com/2012/06/25/is-your-browser-color-managed/

This one is more theoretical and complete:
http://cameratico.com/tools/web-browser-color-management-test/
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 16 17 [18] 19 20 ... 27   Go Up