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Author Topic: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic  (Read 124389 times)

garyfong

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #200 on: August 25, 2014, 10:20:29 am »

Don't try, Gray's again confused. I tried to help him understand there is no such thing. He keeps using incorrect language such as What's the motive other than looking like a fool?

I think I'll let the public decide who is the fool.  I'm going to ask you a simple question that you haven't yet answered.

Is an image captured in AdobeRGB and printed in AdobeRGB going to look perceptibly better than the image shot in sRGB and printed in sRGB.  Answer the question.  Whether I do it or not.  In general theory.  Straight from camera.  Is it going to or is it not?

One word answer.  Yes or no.  I don't need another 72 line answer.  One word.  Yes or no.  Why can't you answer?
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Czornyj

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #201 on: August 25, 2014, 10:20:52 am »

This whole discussion is about AdobeRGB vs sRGB.  If your opinion is the last video is misleading, unprofessional, etc. then this video will have as only the information that was gleaned from the tests.  Camera to print, staying in their respective color spaces, and put out for the public to vote.  Will they say, "I can't really tell" or will they say, "AdobeRGB is much better"?

I still haven't heard anybody going on record saying that the AdobeRGB is going to win.  Just a bunch of snipes off topic.

Not at all (no matter how hard you try), and it's not really fascinating. As for the test, I can save your time - here's the test I did, Chromira X5 + Fuji DP2 Lustre:


First obvious difference is that... there's virtually no difference - you can't really show the difference between sRGB and Adobe RGB on sRGB rendered image, so making a video is pointless. The differences that are noticeable in real life are:
- the blue sky on surfer and lake image is much more rich and vivid, so is the turquoise wave and the water - the wave is much more 3D
- the dark blue in nightscapes and underwater images is more saturated and cooler, the blue-turquise corals on underwater image is washed out on sRGB variant.
- yellow sunflowers, orange jam are a bit more saturated, but there's no night and day difference.
As one should expect, the major difference is in saturated parts in region between dark blue, blue, turquoise and phtalogreen, where AdobeRGB allows you to take advantage of Fuji DP2 dyes potential, the rest is virtually the same or almost the same.

So much for squeezed spectrum and alike theories.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 10:27:04 am by Czornyj »
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #202 on: August 25, 2014, 10:25:14 am »

an sRGB printer is the most common wet process printer available to the public.  
Gary, do yourself a favor and look up with the sRGB color space is and was desinged for. It has nothing to do with printing.
Let me try to help, although it's pointless. The data points may be useful for a few others who migrate here after they are told what a fool you are on this topic.
This is a cut and paste from Michael Stokes who is considered the father of sRGB! It was posted in response to Jeff Schewe and myself way back in 1998  on the ColorSync forum when you still didn't have a clue about this subject. It describes how HP disinged sRGB and no, there isn't anything about printers in there because there is NO SUCH THING as an sRGB printer.

Quote
On 11/30/98 8:56 AM, "Stokes, Michael"  wrote:
Jeff and Andrew,

I just ran across a couple of threads you wrote in response to a query about
sRGB. Being the color scientist behind this effort at HP, I would like to
clear up some apparent misconceptions.



1. sRGB is not base on "standard" "typical" or any other type of PC monitor,

but is directly derived from the HDTV standard ITU-R BT.709/2

2. sRGB does represent not only average PC monitors, but is within the

factory tolerances of  almost all CRTs
on the market today, including Barco

professional CRTs. This is due to the shared family set of P22 phosphors

which almost all CRTs use today. While this "family" of P22 phosphors has

some differences between manufacturers, these differences fall within each

manufacturer's factory tolerances. Saying that sRGB chromaticities are

"quite small" is simply saying that CRT phosphors in general are quite

small.

3. While the 2.2 gamma was directly derived from HTDV, it has been

independently verified by Sony, Barco and others to represent the native

physical state of CRTs today. It is also very close to the native human

perceptual lightness scale when viewing CRTs. This combination makes this

gamma the optimal for CRTs to physically operate at. This also goes a long

way in explaining the compatibility with Windows and PCs in general since

these systems have not imposed any arbitary or proprietary system

adjustments.

4. The white point again is derived directly from the television industry

and is the standard is televisions and also in many aspects of photography.

Achieving a bright enough D50 white point to comfortably adapt to continues

to be a technical challenge for CRT vendors.

5. I agree that there is a different in gamut shapes between sRGB and press

CMYKs. This is due the the difference in gamut shapes of CRTs in general and

press CMYKs in general
. Since sRGB represents the native physical condition

of CRTs, this is an obvious outcome.
I also note that the sRGB gamut in

general is significantly larger than press CMYK gamuts an most areas other

than cyan.

6. I agree that if I am in a high-end graphic arts D50 only workflow, that

sRGB is not the optimal solution and neither HP nor Microsoft claims it to

be so. On the other hand, it is the optimal solution for any display-centric

workflow
such as desktop publishing in the office or home, the world wide

web or any assortment of workflows where a display plays an integral part.

7. Claiming that pure cyan in sRGB converts to 78% cyan in press CMYK is

completely dependent upon which gamut mapping technique you are using. I am

assuming you are using whatever is in Photoshop. I can tell you that this is

not the case for the gamut mapping in our own printers.

8. We've worked very hard with Pantone to provide a solid physical and

scientific foundation for their RGB representations. I am at a loss to

explain your criticims on this front and your implicit request that Pantone

base their CRT RGB palettes on something other than established standards,

physics and science. I would appreciate some input on this one.

9. Your statements that "However, I've been told that the original color

scientist from HP that

proposed this colorspace has stated that it has gone too far, that this was

a proposal ONLY for the web. . .not for printing or cameras or scanners.

I've also heard the even Microsoft is kinda backing away from sRGB for

ANYTHING other than the web." are simply untrue and I would appreciate

knowing where to go to straighten this out. I have never said that sRGB is

not for printing or cameras or scanners. I believe sRGB provides an

excellent, robust and fundamentally sound solutions for these mass markets.

HP has a lot of evidence both internally and with real customers to support

this. We also have many partners in the camera, scanner and desktop printer

businesses that have independenty confirmed this. I also believe that

Microsoft has not backed off from sRGB in any way.

10. A better web site for sRGB information is at www.srgb.com

11. I would very much like to have a discussion on the difference between

display spaces and editing spaces. I agree that a larger editing space would

be helpful, but am skeptical from my own scientific research if this can be

done in a 24bit encoding by simply changing the chromaticities without

resulting in other problems. Would you and Rodney be interested in such a

discussion?

12. Characterizing our efforts as hoodwinking seems a bit stretched since

we've gone out of our way to conform to existing international standards,

sound physics, and state of art research results.

I just wanted to clarify a few things and hope this helps,

Michael Stokes

HP

« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 10:31:34 am by digitaldog »
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garyfong

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #203 on: August 25, 2014, 10:26:23 am »

As for the test, I can save your time - here's the test I did, Chromira X5 + Fuji DP2 Lustre: First obvious difference is that... there's virtually no difference

OK thank you.  So we have one person who has tested it and saw "virtually no difference".  From a member of this forum.  Nobody has come out and said that AdobeRGB is going to print better, after all of this heated discussion.  In fact, I'm being told not to even bother making the video.

Oh I'm going to make the video.  It'll show the consumer the exact steps, and the exact result.  I'm saving all of this discussion for the video.  As of this moment, I have one member saying there is virtually no difference and nobody willing to even say that in general terms the AdobeRGB to AdobeRGB is going to print better.
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Czornyj

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #204 on: August 25, 2014, 10:28:25 am »

OK thank you.  So we have one person who has tested it and saw "virtually no difference".  From a member of this forum.

Desipere est juris gentium
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #205 on: August 25, 2014, 10:28:28 am »

I think I'll let the public decide who is the fool.  
The public here clearly has. Do you want that I and other's post this forum URL over other areas of the net to amplify your misinformation? I'd love to.
Quote
think you can tell by the cheap shots here who is spreading misinformation.
Classic, in Gary's mind, facts are cheap shots and misinformation.
Quote
how about going on the record and saying that you predict that an AdobeRGB captured image printed with AdobeRGB output is going to win over the sRGB to sRGB?
Based on your procedures? NEVER. You're doing the test wrong Gary, don't you understand that. Why then would I or anyone besides you state anything about the test other than it's hugely flawed.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #206 on: August 25, 2014, 10:28:34 am »

The explanation in Gary's video of sRGB vs. aRGB reminds me of the explanation the father of one of my childhood friends gave about how an automobile works:

"You pour water in the front and gasoline in the back and they mix in the middle and make the car go."

 ???
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garyfong

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #207 on: August 25, 2014, 10:33:07 am »

there is NO SUCH THING as an sRGB printer.

I suggest that you call any of the commercial labs in your town, and ask if they print in sRGB vs AdobeRGB.  If there's no such thing, then he's right.  If every printer in town tells you that they do one, or the other, or both, then will you believe the above quote?  And the poster?

Andrew - answer the question.  Is the Adobe going to print better?  I have one poster saying there's virtually no difference, I have nobody else from this forum coming forward, and you will not give a simple yes or no answer.

I've gotta ask you then - what's all this controversy about?  All these words, technology, quotes, jargon.  What's it for?  It won't produce better prints in the end?  So it will only look good on your wide gamut monitor which has a web browser capable of handling the gamut?  Is this the majority of the population?  Or just this group?

This group who will not go on record saying the answer to a simple question.  Will AdobeRGB images make better prints than an image captured in sRGB
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bjanes

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #208 on: August 25, 2014, 10:35:07 am »

No.  I am going to Capture in sRGB and print in sRGB, then capture in AdobeRGB and print in AdobeRGB.  Same camera, same light balance, same exposure, same light source, same printer.  Just two different gamuts.   I'm also going to do one in AdobeRGB and print in sRGB.  Trust me, I know I'm not going to change anybody's mind here.  I'm trying to help the photography enthusiast, and the way I'm going to do it is show them, using both workflows, real world results - and let the public vote on which one is the best.

It is time to pause and consider what is really going on in regard to color management. If you take a picture with a digital camera, you are are capturing in the native color space of the camera (I'm using this term loosely, as the camera does not have a fully defined color space) and the image is then rendered into the target color space, either by the camera's built in software if you are shooting in JPEG or by the raw converter if you are shooting in raw. This rendering can include adjustment of dynamic range and color gamut and is the essence of a successful rendering (see Rendering the print by Karl Lang). In your case, you would be rendering into sRGB or Adobe RGB. If the color gamut of the scene exceeds that of the target space, color information would be lost. Otherwise, the results would be the same if the gamut of the scene fits into the narrower space.

Your term "printing in sRGB" or "printing in Adobe RGB" is confusing, since (as the Digitaldog points out) no existing printers have these spaces as their native color space. Here is where color management comes in. You would convert to the native space of the printer and would have the option of using a rendering intent for more pleasing results. If you send an image to the printer and the color space of the image is properly tagged, an intelligent printer could use this tag to convert from the source color space to the native space of the printer. Some printers (including the Noritsus and Fuji Frontiers ignore the color space tag (according to Drycreek.com) and assume that the source is sRGB and then convert to their native spaces. However, if one is using the custom Drycreek profiles, one can convert to the native color space of the printer using any of the available rendering intents. Since these profiles are large and ignored by the printer in any case, one does not embed the custom profile in the printer but rather requests that no adjustments be applied. The printer then outputs the file in its native color space.

More advanced printers would presumably read the embedded tag and then convert to the native printer color space. Thus, when "printing in sRGB" you need to know the behavior of the printer in question.

Regards,

Bill
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #209 on: August 25, 2014, 10:35:25 am »

 I'm going to ask you a simple question that you haven't yet answered.
And I'll do the same: How will this video get you off the hook with the egregious mistakes you made in your last two videos? Based on your piss-poor track record, why should anyone here, especially me even consider answering a question about a new video that based on your own description is falwed?
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garyfong

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #210 on: August 25, 2014, 10:36:56 am »

The public here clearly has. Do you want that I and other's post this forum URL over other areas of the net to amplify your misinformation? I'd love to. Classic, in Gary's mind, facts are cheap shots and misinformation. Based on your procedures? NEVER. You're doing the test wrong Gary, don't you understand that. Why then would I or anyone besides you state anything about the test other than it's hugely flawed.

How about go on the record that you say that AdobeRGB captured files create visibly better prints than sRGB?  Yes or no?  One word.

Is AdobeRGB visibly superior for printing than a lab that would print it in what they would call sRGB?

One word.  Yes or no.  Go on the record.
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Eyeball

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #211 on: August 25, 2014, 10:37:17 am »

I've yet to hear anybody say that they are confident that this test will produce a win for AdobeRGB.  Stop saying I'm going to rig the results.  Assuming that it goes straight from camera to same color space, "should" AdobeRGB win the test?

I already posted my predictions for a series of tests.  Whether AdobeRGB would "win" such a test depends on gamut of the output device, the test image used (if the color gamut of the image doesn't exceed sRGB, then virtually no difference will be perceived), the way the color space conversions are performed, and the participants being used for the experiment.

That said, I just want to remind you that most of the criticism here is NOT about what color space is "best".  That is the strawman that you throw out to misdirect people.  The primary criticism is all the gobbledy-gook that you threw into the video to "support" your recommendation of why to use sRGB.  I maintain that it is totally unnecessary, confusing, and will require your viewers to "unlearn" bad concepts if they ever want or need to pursue color management in a more serious way.  There are many, many ways to explain simply (in LESS than 5 minutes) to a beginner audience why sRGB would be a good choice WITHOUT including a bunch of incorrect and misleading information.

Just as a reminder to everyone, here are my notes from Gary's video taken with my "beginner's goggles" on:

0:05 – I’m confused right off the bat by what he means when he says “choice”.  No mention of color space, profile, or anything – just a “choice” between sRGB and adobeRGB, whatever those things are.  If I’ve been playing with my camera a little bit, maybe I think he’s talking about the in-camera sRGB/adobeRGB setting (which is largely immaterial if shooting raw).  If I’ve been playing around with something like Lightroom or Photoshop, maybe I think he’s talking about the working space or the output/export settings, even if I don’t totally understand “working space” or “output/export”.

0:10 – I think I understand the recommendations pretty well although I don’t know what the hell “pre-press” or “CMYK” are.  I have an inkjet printer.  How do I know if it’s “sophisticated” or not?

1:00 – OK.  sRGB and AdobeRGB both cover the same range of colors but AdobeRGB has “more colors in-between”.  (Not only WRONG, but almost exactly the opposite is true.  AdobeRGB has a “wider range” (larger gamut) and it is sRGB that has “more colors in-between” (finer differentiation between neighboring RGB values) although this last point is not extremely important from a practical standpoint when comparing AdobeRGB and sRGB. ).

1:35 – OK.  If I jam AdobeRGB into sRGB (whatever that means) I will lose some reds and violets. Apparently, I won’t lose any color in the middle of the spectrum. (LARGELY WRONG AND MISLEADING.  I *MAY* “lose” some colors when going from AdobeRGB to sRGB but that loss may involve more than just reds and violets.)

2:45 – AdobeRGB has “dull colors” on sRGB equipment.  OK, so I guess I’m screwed if I have an image in AdobeRGB and want to use an “sRGB device”.  It’s going to show-up dull.  (LARGELY WRONG AND MISLEADING.  This only happens when the AdobeRGB image is not CONVERTED to sRGB properly. Basically, the whole video is focused on how the image will be screwed-up if not properly CONVERTED from one color space to another and yet this IS NEVER MENTIONED.  The viewer is left believing that AdobeRGB images will always appear poorly on “sRGB devices”.  IMO this is probably the greatest sin of the entire video.)

3:37 – You can’t see all those extra “colors in-between” that AdobeRGB has with the naked eye.  If this is true, why would I EVER use AdobeRGB????  Sounds like I’d need a microscope to appreciate the difference.  (LARGELY WRONG AND MISLEADING – Forgetting all the “colors in-between” crap for a moment and the fact that he is talking about conversion problems without talking about them, differences between AdobeRGB and sRGB can certainly be seen with the naked eye.  The differences can be subtle and will depend on the image actually having color outside the sRGB gamut that AdobeRGB covers.  Some non-photographers and beginners also may not readily see the differences when they’re there, but that is a matter of expertise in evaluating and enjoying the image – NOT of limitations of the human eye.)

= = =

I think I was pretty fair in my review and I don’t think I crossed into “nit-picking” territory (for example, “sRGB devices” when there largely are no such things and using an overly-simplified spectrum graphic instead of a 2D or 3D gamut plot).

For me, these errors and misleading statements are the big problem with the video.  What color space is “best” is a red herring IMO.  What color space is “best” is a value judgment (benefit – cost) and that value judgment will be made differently by different people.  Personally, I have no problem generalizing that value judgment for beginners and people not interested in color management and recommending sRGB for them, based on a relatively large potential downside (dull images from bad color space conversions) and a relatively small potential upside (a little better representation of some saturated colors on output devices and media that can actually show them) for non-sRGB.


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garyfong

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #212 on: August 25, 2014, 10:44:35 am »

(LARGELY WRONG AND MISLEADING.  This only happens when the AdobeRGB image is not CONVERTED to sRGB properly. Basically, the whole video is focused on how the image will be screwed-up if not properly CONVERTED from one color space to another and yet ...
The differences can be subtle and will depend on the image actually having color outside the sRGB gamut that AdobeRGB covers.  Some non-photographers and beginners also may not readily see the differences when they’re there, but that is a matter of expertise in evaluating and enjoying the image

Look at the video.  What does it say on the title and description? 
Why Switching to AdobeRGB Images Look Dull ... and in the description, One of the most hotly debated (and extremely misunderstood) topics in digital photography is what is better, AdobeRGB or sRGB.  Countless photographers report that their images, when shot in AdobeRGB appear "dull" on web browsers or wet process prints.  This demonstration illustrates what happens when you shoot on a color space that is too wide for the display or print media.

Keep it within context.  And thanks for the print output description.
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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #213 on: August 25, 2014, 10:50:11 am »

How about go on the record that you say that AdobeRGB captured files create visibly better prints than sRGB?  
It's such a simplistic and moronic question as posed, it can't be and shoudn't be answered!
What's better Gary, Sugar or Salt? Pick one.

In some cases, there will be no difference between the two color spaces. In some cases it will be better in Adobe RGB (1998) if range of color saturation (and the image itself) is important. It depends on the output device (print OR display). It depends on if the data was even treated correctly, something I have zero faith you have the ability to do with your video.

What's better Gary, Color or B&W. Answer! Which one. Go on record so we can have others dismiss an answer to a question that doesn't deserve an answer.

None of this changes the misinformation of your two video's on color. Not a lick. No matter how hard you try misdirection, you're simply not smart enough with this audience for that trick to work.

Quote
This demonstration illustrates what happens when you shoot on a color space that is too wide for the display or print media.
No, it doesn't. It illustrates your misunderstanding of basic color management and poor teachings. It illustrates what happens when people as cluless about the subject as you, confuse and mistreat sRGB as Adobe RGB or vise versa. That's wrong! Don't do it. There is nothing wrong with sRGB or Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB but there are things users do when handling that data that is wrong and will result in over saturated colors, not dull colors using exactly the same incorrect handling you've shown. That you don't understand or accpet that is simply shocking. And foolish.
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Ed Foster, Jr.

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #214 on: August 25, 2014, 10:54:44 am »

Gary,

I have read all eleven pages – so far – of this thread and have viewed your videos. If will refrain from commenting on anything other than your proposed test and what I would expect of the results other than based upon my own color managed workflow that I have embodied for over 15 years.

I believe that an image captured in the Adobe RGB (1998) workspace will outperform, in terms of color rendition and fidelity, that captured in the sRGB workspace when printed to a modern inkjet printer utilizing a good custom printer profile.

But, you know something maybe I am incorrect. So, in lieu of you photographing a color checker for your test, how about letting me provide the test prints for your audience as follows, using Bill Atkinson’s test chart that includes real world subject as well as standard color bars, color checker, gray ramps and flesh tones?

I will provide two 13” x 19” test prints that I will prepare today and will send them via overnight delivery to so as to arrive no later than Wednesday. I will do this at my own expense, because I am curious to know that, if done properly, which prints will your observers choose.

Using Bill’s test chart which is in Lab Color, I will convert one to Adobe RGB (1998) workspace in Photoshop using a Relative Colorimetric Mode and then print the image using an Epson 7900 printer for which I have made my own color profiles (iOne Profiler)

In a similar manner, I will open another copy of Bill’s test chart and convert it to sRGB workspace in Photoshop using a Relative Colorimetric Mode and then print in the same fashion.

One print will have the numeral 1 on the back, and the other a 2.

I will repeat the above test utilizing Andrew Rodney’s test chart, which is in the Adobe RGB (1998) color space. This one will be printed in the fashion listed above at 8-1/2” x 11” and I will then convert from the Adobe RGB (1998) space to sRGB and prepare another print.

In both cases, I will retain which prints were prepared utilizing the two working spaces until you conclude observations by others in order to provide for unbiased results.

Personally, I believe this will provide a better test for you to conduct as opposed to merely photographing a Color Checker that you describe.

If you are willing, please forward to me your street mailing address for FedEx delivery and I will proceed.

Regards,
Ed

« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 10:57:06 am by Ed Foster, Jr. »
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #215 on: August 25, 2014, 11:22:27 am »

I suggest that you call any of the commercial labs in your town, and ask if they print in sRGB vs AdobeRGB.
This is a classic example of how Gary's brain works in terms of facts and science!
Gary, I could call 100 such labs and IF they all said the same thing (these are sRGB printers), they like you would be wrong.
I could call 1000 religious fundamentalist and ask them how old the earth is and they would all say 6000 years. Despite the science that proves otherwise. They also believe man and dinosaurs lived together. It's scientifically wrong and can be proven as wrong.

The proof that none of these printers are producing sRGB is seen in the gamut maps I've provided. The output gamut shape doesn't fit sRGB, not even close. If these printers produced sRGB, there would be a prefect fit to sRGB and clearly there isn't. Doesn't matter how many lab owners you or I call, the facts are the facts. Asking 100 people who are as wrong as you what their opinion is will still produce 100 wrong answers. Just as producing your new video will not change the errors of your last two on the subject of color management.
Quote
If every printer in town tells you that they do one, or the other, or both, then will you believe the above quote?  And the poster?
No. And now you know why.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 12:13:09 pm by digitaldog »
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aaronchan

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #216 on: August 25, 2014, 11:59:55 am »

This is a classic example of how Gary's brain works in terms of facts and science!
Gary, I could call 100 such labs and IF they all said the same thing (these are sRGB printers), they like you would be wrong.
I could call 1000 religious fundamentalist and ask them how old the earth is and they would all say 6000 years. Despite the science that proves otherwise. They also believe man and dinosaurs lived together. It's scientifically wrong and can be proven as wrong.

The proof that none of these printers are producing sRGB is seen in the gamut maps I've provided. The output gamut shape doesn't fit sRGB, not even close. If these printers produced sRGB, there would be a prefect fit to sRGB and clearly there isn't. Doesn't matter how many lab owners you or I call, the facts are the facts. Asking 100 people who are as wrong as you their opinion will still produce 100 wrong answers. Just as producing your new video will not change the errors of your last two on the subject of color management. No. And now you know why.

May I put it in this way, let's say an Eizo monitor can cover up the whole display color range of sRGB, but it doesn't cover up the whole range of AdobeRGB, can I call it a sRGB monitor? I don't think that's quite right.

I just re-watched Mr. Fong's video. He basically switched his monitor icc from between aRGB and sRGB and keep saying that one is better than the other. BUT who would use a color working space as their monitor icc? I think this is a fundamental mistake already.

aaron

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #217 on: August 25, 2014, 12:08:03 pm »

May I put it in this way, let's say an Eizo monitor can cover up the whole display color range of sRGB, but it doesn't cover up the whole range of AdobeRGB, can I call it a sRGB monitor? I don't think that's quite right.
It's more right that what Gary is saying considering both sRGB and Adobe RGB (1998) are based on an emissive display. What Gary is saying is absolutely not even close considering both (well all) RGB working space are based on additive color models and theoretical displays and Gary is saying these subtractive printers do the same. He even got basic color theory between the two wrong here.

To go further with your analogy, at least these wide gamut displays usually have an sRGB emulation mode. Do they exactly produce a profile that matches sRGB? Kind of doubt it, but probably close. Gary is confusing what color space you start with then convert to an output space as being the same thing which clearly it isn't. Then he suggests asking equally uninformed people the same question and getting the same wrong answer he provides as proof all the incorrect statements are therefore correct. If you examine nearly every point Gary has made here and on his video site disagreeing with others, there hasn't been a single fact provided based on the scientific method. Even when he references outside sources, he doesn't understand them and tries to suggest they are backing up his fallacies. So we're debating religion not science with Gary. But if anything, all these pages of comments serve as a record to anyone who wonders if Gary is providing correct information. The consensus by a huge factor is, he isn't.

At this point, we can all sit back while Gary creates yet another video worthy of mockery.
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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #218 on: August 25, 2014, 12:12:28 pm »

This is a classic example of how Gary's brain works in terms of facts and science!
Gary, I could call 100 such labs and IF they all said the same thing (these are sRGB printers), they like you would be wrong.

Andrew, that is more of an example how the world works in terms of facts and science.

If 100 labs are wrong, than it is a fact of life. Street-smart guys like Garry realize that and deal with such fact of life, right or wrong. Scientific Don Quijotes will instead launch a crusade against those 100 labs (or more likely thousands), trying to prove them wrong, mocking them, organizing press conferences, writing petitions, collecting signatures, etc. In the meantime, a street-smart guy will just send them a file with sRGB and move on with his life.

Quote
I could call 1000 religious fundamentalist and ask them how old the earth is and they would all say 6000 years. Despite the science that proves otherwise. They also believe man and dinosaurs lived together. It's scientifically wrong and can be proven as wrong...

Proven to whom? To those 1000 "religious fundamentalists" (or more like 100-200 million of them in this country)? You really believe that your scientific proofs will persuade them? If scientific facts and persuasion were so powerful, would we still have an overwhelming majority in this country and the world so religious?

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #219 on: August 25, 2014, 12:20:00 pm »

sRGB printer = a lab that uses a printer that assumes all files coming into it are in sRGB space or assigns one to them
Adobe RGB printer = a lab that uses a printer that can honor the embedded Adobe RGB space

« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 12:30:55 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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