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Author Topic: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic  (Read 124387 times)

mouse

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #140 on: August 24, 2014, 05:08:11 pm »

Quote
Yes, Jeff, you and I, and (mostly) everybody else on this forum can. Once again, there is an audience (e.g., Garry's audience) that can not or doesn't want to.

And you've come up with that fact how? It is a rather ridiculous statement sir. If they can navitage to Gary's video's I suspect they can make their way to DryCreek's site too.
You sound very much like Gary on his video page by suggesting beginners are simply too stupid to learn how to do this properly, it isn't so. Teach them!

With respect, yours is a much more optimistic view of the picture taking public than my own.  :)

Let's start by confining the population under consideration to only those camera owners whose equipment allows them the choice of capturing in either sRGB or aRGB.  (Thus confining it to those who may be, however vaguely, interested in the topic at hand.)

What fraction of that population, do you suppose, view and work with only the .jpg image?  
My guess: around 80%.

And, of the latter group, what fraction own and use an editing application that is capable of converting the color space of their jpeg image?
My guess: less than 20%.

Admittedly my guesses are just "off the top of my head"; not close to any scientific sampling but just on conversations with camera owners I know.

But please don't consider this an argument against trying our best to teach the unwashed masses, or at lease avoid confusing them.
And even if my guesses are close, they provide no justification for anyone publishing such misleading explanations of color management.


« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 05:18:40 pm by mouse »
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #141 on: August 24, 2014, 05:17:58 pm »

But please don't consider this an argument against trying our best to teach the unwashed masses, or at lease avoid confusing them.
Or worse, the crux of this discussion, telling them silly nonsense but defending it by suggesting one is 'keeping it simple'. I can't accept people telling them factually incorrect information then auguring with those who point out the misinformation. That's all Gary has done since he posted the video a few days ago.
Then he comes here asking for suggestions on another video which will be filled with further incorrect information and ignores the suggestions from the very people he asks for advise. All he will achieve is a group of people who will likely (hopefully) post more comments on his site about the factual misinformation provided in the next video he can't wait to create. Talk about a guy shooting himself in the foot.
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supercurio

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #142 on: August 24, 2014, 05:22:31 pm »

What is so funny about shooting two images in daylight with different color spaces?  
What will this prove?  If sRGB is preferred by more people, the same number of people, then sRGB is a valid color management system for photography.  If AdobeRGB blows it away, then all of your work (calibrating your camera!) taking many tests under many conditions, using just the right paper, etc. won't matter because AdobeRGB is the hands-down color path to stunningly better color.

This test won't work for you, I get it.  But it needs to be done to shed some light on if it is really worthwhile to have to shoot in AdobeRGB to preserve the rich color detail you're saying.  People should decide if it is worth it or not, when choosing a workflow.

I had no idea that, "your regular commercial camera doesn't have accurate colors at all".  Have you alerted Canon or Nikon or Sony?  Are they not accurate at all?  Will Crockett is wrong, Ken Rockwell is wrong, I'm wrong, and now the camera manufacturers are all making cameras with no accurate color "at all"?

You can be interviewed or not, I'm going to read these comments on the video.  I think it would just be better if you got on screen and told us what was wrong with our results.  I some idea how the test is going to go, but I'm not declaring anything here until the results come in.

Not sure what you found funny, but calibrating camera is my daily job right now so I studied the relevant math, algorithms and wrote software to do that.
In the process, I compared to existing cameras and their JPEG output and learned why there was so much difference where things were supposed to be the same.

Learning about color science is a long process I believe, and countless times I realized that what I thought was correct was either wrong or a gross approximation, no doubt it will happen again.
I'm sure it's part of the learning process.

Why do you see this as sRGB VS Adobe RGB?
That doesn't make any sense, the whole premise here is inadequate.

There's not a lesser color space and a better one, both are for different usages.
sRGB is useful in a non color managed environment and introduce less banding when you're limited to only 8-bit, Adobe RGB gives a little more headroom and wider coverage that gets handy if you output on a device that has wider than Rec.709 / sRGB gamut.

Also, IMHO both are so limited they're completely outdated and it's very much the time to upgrade to wider gamuts for shooting, edition and display.
Incoming standards are Rec.2020 and also HDR displays, and instead most people are looking in the past.
Today we have dozen of millions of AMOLED displays on consumer products with gamut much wider than anything discussed here so far. It's not even about tomorrow: Its real since the Galaxy S, 5 years ago.

About your test, the methodology is indeed invalid.

You can test one variable at a time.
Either:
- Calibrated camera in sRGB against Adobe RGB -> calibrated printer -> eyes
Or:
- Camera in calibrated RAW -> Output in sRGB against Adobe RGB -> calibrated printer -> eyes

In your experiment, you have too many variables.
- Uncablibrated camera is a variable
- sRGB or Adobe RGB is a variable
- Uncalibrated printer is a variable

The logic says: you cannot test three variables in a single test.

And yes that's correct, digital cameras are not calibrated.
Well, to be more precise: All of them are calibrated (with more or less accuracy), then a custom look is applied.
This is the reason why often one can identify an untouched picture from a Sony camera (tends to have a cold tone), Panasonic camera (typically: muted yellows turning greens), Olympus (vibrant pleasing colors most people like out of the box). Canon look is pretty significant too.

I don't need to alter them their colors are not accurate, it's intentional and most of the time a visual trademark.

Well if you want me to talk in a video why not, that could be fun.
Know that I will have no problem identifying and describing methodologies and misconception in a test tho, I don't care if you use my name, people know me for my work and results already.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 05:28:08 pm by supercurio »
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mouse

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #143 on: August 24, 2014, 06:20:24 pm »

Perhaps this thread is not the best place for this question, but since it has Andrew's attention, I will give it a try:

Andrew, much earlier in this thread you made two comments which cause me to scratch my head; admittedly a head not overflowing with color management knowledge.

Quote
GF: "if you had an aRGB file you would have to convert to sRGB before uploading to web"

AR: "No, you wouldn't. ............  not on the web with a color managed browser. It's a good idea to convert to sRGB for those that don't have a color managed browser. And as I tried to point out to you, Adobe RGB (1998) in a non color managed browser would look fine on my wide gamut display, sRGB would not."

AR: "If you provide me with an sRGB image and I view it on my wide gamut display without a color managed app, it looks poor."

What I don't understand is why an sRGB image would display poorly in a non color managed application/browser on a wide gamut display.
Would it look better on a monitor which was not wide gamut?

Further, why would an aRGB image look fine in a non color managed application/browser when using a wide gamut display, but (presumably) not so fine when viewed on a monitor which was not wide gamut?

I am assuming here that "non color managed" means an application/browser which simply disregards any color space tags attached to the image (if present), and assumes all images are in sRGB.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 06:24:08 pm by mouse »
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Schewe

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #144 on: August 24, 2014, 06:25:13 pm »

I had no idea that, "your regular commercial camera doesn't have accurate colors at all".  Have you alerted Canon or Nikon or Sony?  Are they not accurate at all?  Will Crockett is wrong, Ken Rockwell is wrong, I'm wrong, and now the camera manufacturers are all making cameras with no accurate color "at all"?

Well, actually, this is a true statement (one of the first you've made). Both Nikon and Canon (and any other camera that does on-board raw-JPEG conversions) steps all over the camera color as captured in raw. They all produce "Looks" that render the raw to JPEG. Both Nikon and Canon have the ability to apply different looks. So, what camera look are you gonna pick for your test. If Canon, "Neutral" is the most accurate, the rest are all flavored by secret sauce.

You really, REALLY don't want to say "accurate" and Out of the Camera in the same breath.

BTW, all the camera makers are using highly tweaked methods of getting the camera color into either sRGB or ARGB. They are using non-standard color transforms that massage out of gamut color into the JPEGs. Ironically, neither ACR nor LR can match the hand tuned color conversions from camera color to sRGB or ARGB in the same way using standard color space transforms because normal RGB>RGB color spaces are all locked into RelCol rendering-unless you get the beta V4 ICC profiles for color spaces from color.org. I have the beta V4 sRGB and use it when going from ProPhoto RGB to sRGB. It does a better job of the color transform when converting colors in gamut in ProPhoto RGB to out of gamut colors in sRGB.

So far, all of your explanations and justifications are falling flat. Your new "test" isn't going to show you anything useful–not if you are correctly transforming for the correct output profile. The ColorChecker is not gonna "stress" the color gamut of either sRGB nor ARGB (except as noted about cyan).

You are spinning your wheels trying to devise some sort of test to prove what you think you know, and that is simply un-scientic. In science you come up with the theory and you do the proper tests to prove the theories and let the chips fall where they may. The problem is, the tests have to be neutral and scientifically designed to fully test the theory. That's what you've failed to do to date and based on what you'v written, it's not likely your tests will "prove" much of anything (other than cyan will clip in sRGB and not clip in ARGB).

BTW, I won't even bring up Rendering Intents because, well, your tests of ColorChecker shots won't stress any gamut mapping.

Ya know, if you want to teach this stuff, it would be useful if you knew this stuff...

--edited for two typos---
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 06:28:27 pm by Schewe »
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supercurio

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #145 on: August 24, 2014, 06:36:40 pm »

BTW, all the camera makers are using highly tweaked methods of getting the camera color into either sRGB or ARGB. They are using non-standard color transforms that massage out of gamut color into the JPEGs. Ironically, neither ACR nor LR can match the hand tuned color conversions from camera color to sRGB or ARGB in the same way using standard color space transforms because normal RGB>RGB color spaces are all locked into RelCol rendering-unless you get the beta V4 ICC profiles for color spaces from color.org. I have the beta V4 sRGB and use it when going from ProPhoto RGB to sRGB. It does a better job of the color transform when converting colors in gamut in ProPhoto RGB to out of gamut colors in sRGB.

Good to know.
Would you have a study or analysis that has been published somewhere to share?

After what you described, I'm curious to see if  the common practice in camera is to fine tune how out of gamut colors and highlights get treated separately for sRGB and Adobe RGB.
Or if it has been shown some use different color profiles depending on the output.

Something that would lead to significant difference between sRGB camera JPEG output and Adobe RGB converted to sRGB, both for what's within the gamut and out.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #146 on: August 24, 2014, 06:40:08 pm »

... Why do you see this as sRGB VS Adobe RGB?
That doesn't make any sense, the whole premise here is inadequate....

Because, when you get a new camera and go through set-up, this is the question you need to answer: sRGB or aRGB?

supercurio

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #147 on: August 24, 2014, 06:42:16 pm »

Because, when you get a new camera and go through set-up, this is the question you need to answer: sRGB or aRGB?


Exactly, sRGB or Adobe RGB  ;)
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Schewe

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #148 on: August 24, 2014, 06:45:43 pm »

Good to know.
Would you have a study or analysis that has been published somewhere to share?

Nothing published...but both Thomas Knoll and Eric Chan (ACR engineers) have tested and proven that the camera color (raw) to on-board JPEG in sRGB and ARGB are "non-standard" renderings with hand tuned tweaks to "make gamut clipping better". Neither Canon nor Nikon will admit to this of course, it's all "secret sauce".

It's pretty easy to test, just shoot a raw + JPEG, and try to take the raw and convert to sRGB or ARGB in ACR/LR...neither ACR nor LR are capable of taming out of gamut colors to match the OOC JPEGs.

It's actually something Thomas and Eric are "looking at" (meaning researching with the eye towards improving).
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Tony Jay

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #149 on: August 24, 2014, 06:46:52 pm »

Gary Fong:

Unfortunately you are continuing to parade your ignorance about colour management.
You stating that colour management is subjective is at the root of your misunderstanding.
While colour perception may be subjective - it is highly likely that several viewers viewing the same colour will NOT perceive that colour in exactly the same way, colour management is, in contradistinction, by definition, based on objective facts and is an attempt to standardise colour across different input and output platforms.

As for your current stated plan for your grand experiment, it has already been pointed out that it is completely unscientific fud. I am sorry fud is the only appropriate word to describe what you are proposing.

In summary, your surprise that cameras may not be 'calibrated' to produce accurate colour only serves to confirm that you are indeed ignorant in the realm of colour management.
You have a great opportunity here to actually learn some things but it seems to me that all you want to do is confirm your ignorant prejudices.
This forum is populated with many individuals who do stand as acknowledged experts in the field of colour management - Jeff Schewe and Andrew Rodney are only two.
My advice is to learn from them.
Expecting them to respect your opinions when they are so clearly wrong is frankly pie in the sky.
At the very least you need to sit down and read a good primer on colour management - from start to finish - since your current perceptions of colour management are so warped on so many levels.
Currently it is impossible to engage in a useful discussion about colour management with you - we are simply not talking the same language.

Tony Jay
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #150 on: August 24, 2014, 06:51:26 pm »

If you have a color managed browser and upload images with embedded profiles, they will preview correctly as they do in Photoshop, Lightroom etc. So in theory yes, you could upload Adobe RGB (1998) data with an embedded profile and Safari as an example, would preview that data correctly.

But what about non color managed browsers? They would not preview the data correctly. Unless you were viewing Adobe RGB (1998) in a wide gamut display. So since the web is a great mass of uncalibrated, profiled displays and lots of non color managed browsers, sRGB is the best color space to use as it's closest to all those non wide gamut displays. But that doesn't mean they are sRGB as that color space is defined. Just close.
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MarkM

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #151 on: August 24, 2014, 06:52:06 pm »

What I don't understand is why an sRGB image would display poorly in a non color managed application/browser on a wide gamut display.
Would it look better on a monitor which was not wide gamut?

Further, why would an aRGB image look fine in a non color managed application/browser when using a wide gamut display, but (presumably) not so fine when viewed on a monitor which was not wide gamut?

I am assuming here that "non color managed" means an application/browser which simply disregards any color space tags attached to the image (if present), and assumes all images are in sRGB.

Had Gary Fong given a real explanation of what was going on, you would probably be able to answer this question from his information. But this question is pretty unanswerable using Fong-theory rainbows and switching monitor profiles.

Here's what's going on:
If you give me an sRGB color like [0, 255, 0] — that's the brightest, most-saturated green possible in sRGB. If I just take those numbers and send them to display system with no color management whatsoever, the display is going to output its brightest, most saturated green. If that display is a device like an iPhone with a gamut very similar to sRGB, these two versions of green will be almost the same. But if that display is a wide gamut display its brightest most saturated green is going to be a substantially different color.  

Going the other direction, suppose I have AdobeRGB's visual equivalent of sRGB (0, 255, 0). That color is about (144, 255, 60) in AdobeRGB. In a color managed environment sRGB (0, 255, 0) and AdobeRGB (144, 255, 60) will match visually. In sRGB this color represents 100% saturation, but in AdobeRGB it represents only about 77% saturation. So what happens if I send the AdobeRGB numbers to sRGB-like display? It will send the numbers (144, 255, 60) directly to output, so rather than getting 100% of the display's saturation I only get about 77% resulting in a duller-than-expected color. If I send those numbers to a wide-gamut display with characteristics similar to AdobeRGB, 77% of it's most saturated green will closer to what we were aiming for.

Of course all of these scenarios can be avoided in a color managed environment where the system would convert colors to the output profile before displaying them.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 06:54:30 pm by MarkM »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #152 on: August 24, 2014, 06:54:54 pm »

Great, then the data points are only valid for those friends unless you wish to extrapolate that the rest of Gary's audience or potential audience fall into the came camp and I don't know how you'd prove that...

Easily. I can extrapolate, because that what statistical polling does: takes a sample of the population and extrapolates the result. The sample size really does not have to be that big, only a couple of hundred people.

Let's take the most commonly used combination in polling: 95% confidence (i.e., one standard deviation from the mean) and 5% margin of error. In that case, you only need a sample size between 306 people and 384 people if your population ranges between 1,500 people and 300,000,000 million (i.e., the population of the U.S.) If you want to reduce the margin of error to just 1%, the sample size for the whole U.S. is less than ten thousand (9603, to be precise).

Since the population of photographers that constitute Garry's audience is most likely above 1,500 (but less than the population of the U.S.), I can safely say that I met between 300 people and 400 people in my 40 years of involvement with photography  (that are similar to my friends and acquaintances I mentioned above) to make such an extrapolation.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 07:04:38 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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supercurio

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #153 on: August 24, 2014, 06:58:58 pm »

Nothing published...but both Thomas Knoll and Eric Chan (ACR engineers) have tested and proven that the camera color (raw) to on-board JPEG in sRGB and ARGB are "non-standard" renderings with hand tuned tweaks to "make gamut clipping better". Neither Canon nor Nikon will admit to this of course, it's all "secret sauce".

It's pretty easy to test, just shoot a raw + JPEG, and try to take the raw and convert to sRGB or ARGB in ACR/LR...neither ACR nor LR are capable of taming out of gamut colors to match the OOC JPEGs.

It's actually something Thomas and Eric are "looking at" (meaning researching with the eye towards improving).

Okay got it :)
The same ACR will then use proprietary method as well to re-implement those image tuning as dcp profiles.
Those DCP contain a lot already provided you're able to visualize the data contained, you probably saw this diagram already, from Hans van Eijsden article, using dcptools

And from dcptool author, http://chromasoft.blogspot.fr/2009/02/visualizing-dng-camera-profiles-part-1.html, http://chromasoft.blogspot.fr/2009/02/visualizing-dng-camera-profiles-part-2.html, http://chromasoft.blogspot.fr/2009/02/visualizing-dng-camera-profiles-part-3.html

For Adobe, sharing more than the profiles themselves is not necessary.
However, even if not trivial it's not too difficult to replicate using 3D LUTs. In ACR it's implemented using huesatmap as described in DNG specs instead.

It's secret sauce only to a certain extent as we can observe and measure it :)

A good demonstration of why and how commercial cameras output is intentionally not color-accurate, and it's likely to be visible even on a picture of a ColorChecker.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #154 on: August 24, 2014, 06:59:42 pm »

Exactly, sRGB or Adobe RGB  ;)
Or raw something for some reason Gary is afraid to use but would aid greatly in the currently utterly flawed video he is proposing.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #155 on: August 24, 2014, 07:01:01 pm »

Since the population of photographers that constitute Garry's audience is most likely above 1,500, I can safely say that I met between 300 people and 400 people in my 40 years of involvement with photography  (that are similar to my friends and acquaintances I mentioned above) to make such an extrapolation.
OK, even if I do accept this as fact, what justification have you got for defending Gary's flawed two videos if any?
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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #156 on: August 24, 2014, 07:09:43 pm »

Or worse, the crux of this discussion, telling them silly nonsense but defending it by suggesting one is 'keeping it simple'. I can't accept people telling them factually incorrect information then auguring with those who point out the misinformation. That's all Gary has done since he posted the video a few days ago.
Then he comes here asking for suggestions on another video which will be filled with further incorrect information and ignores the suggestions from the very people he asks for advise. All he will achieve is a group of people who will likely (hopefully) post more comments on his site about the factual misinformation provided in the next video he can't wait to create. Talk about a guy shooting himself in the foot.

I didn't come here asking questions about the test.  I just want to know why you think it's going to be flawed when I do the commercial application of a very simple test.  A photo will be taken one after another of a color image, and kept in that workflow, to see if people can tell the difference.  This is because I have never seen such a enormous discussion about why it is so important to do exactly a refined workflow.

Can people tell the difference, and if not, is it worth venturing out of the sRGB color space?  That's all I want to determine.  If AdobeRGB is so great, then let the results show that it's nearly unanimous - people can really tell the AdobeRGB is better.  If not, then well, you are arguing over subtle differences that most people can't even pick up.
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Tony Jay

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #157 on: August 24, 2014, 07:15:18 pm »

Okay got it :)...

...A good demonstration of why and how commercial cameras output is intentionally not color-accurate, and it's likely to be visible even on a picture of a ColorChecker.
Absolutely!

Tony Jay
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #158 on: August 24, 2014, 07:16:00 pm »

OK, even if I do accept this as fact, what justification have you got for defending Gary's flawed two videos if any?

I do not defend it, at least not in its entirety. You will remember that I was among the first to say he got the message right, but explanation wrong (especially the rainbow part). Just how wrong, and just how much that matters is where we seem to disagree. In scientific circles, his wrongs might seem so significant that the universe might collapse if we do not stop him. In the world of his audience, I do not think it matters much to them.

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #159 on: August 24, 2014, 07:16:06 pm »

I didn't come here asking questions about the test.  I just want to know why you think it's going to be flawed when I do the commercial application of a very simple test.  A photo will be taken one after another of a color image, and kept in that workflow, to see if people can tell the difference.  This is because I have never seen such a enormous discussion about why it is so important to do exactly a refined workflow.

Can people tell the difference, and if not, is it worth venturing out of the sRGB color space?  That's all I want to determine.  If AdobeRGB is so great, then let the results show that it's nearly unanimous - people can really tell the AdobeRGB is better.  If not, then well, you are arguing over subtle differences that most people can't even pick up.

Well you're free to ignore what everyone is saying, including how the test methodology is flawed.
I took the time to explain this in 2 messages, one simple and another one a bit more in depth.

You could also try to elaborate a test that has a chance of bringing useful results, up to you.
That would be more interesting.
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