sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic

[D Fosse]

I've wanted to comment on this, but words escape me. So I won't.

But I see there are some conspiracy theories here (he wants to attract attention and so on). I think it's much simpler than that - it's just the way our brains are wired. We try to make sense of the world, and once we think we have it, dig our heels in and seek confirmation. Anyone challenging the position will then be seen as a direct threat and met with hostility.

We all do it, it's just a question of where in the process the lightbulb fires. Here you could say it misfired. But history is full of this, it's the same mechanism that fuels political and religious bigotry.

[Rand47]

I will say this:  he (Gary Fong) does make good flash diffusers.

+1  I've used his diffusers very effectively on several commercial "on location" projects w/ multiple small diffused flash units.  Which makes me wonder where he came by his bizzare understanding of color management and his intransigence.  In an attempt to disabuse him of his misunderstanding, I've posted a comment at the YouTube site including a link to a presentation by R Mac Holbert on the subject.  Mac should prove difficult to argue with, one would think. 

Rand

[digitaldog]

I think it's much simpler than that - it's just the way our brains are wired.

Depends on the wiring and who's brain. Now Gary feels he should go to the few YouTube video's I've made and negatively post comments. When I did my DNG video, I made a mistake, saying in it that you can't build a dual illuminate profile within the X-rite plug-in. Someone, I think here on LuLa pointed out that was wrong so I corrected it in a comment at the top saying I was wrong. Gary just commented on the same site "you're an expert and you are wrong" or something to that effect. The guy doesn't get the concept of peer review. He doesn't understand we were not born with a knowledge of color management or imaging and we all struggle to different degrees, to understand the topics. He doesn't understand we all make mistakes or that we can learn from them. I told him exactly that when I said I was just trying to help him with my very first post to his video but he's progressively getting nastier as the hour goes on. So I don't think he has any motivation to educate or help his audience, he's got something to sell. And like that car crash, he's getting progressively more outlandish in his comments which just add to the stand up comic antics of his new (is it new?) act.

[D Fosse]

Depends on the wiring and who's brain.

Yeah, true. Most of us have functioning corrective circuitry and feedback loops to keep the worst excesses in check 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... He's got something wrong, but can't countenance the idea of being wrong...

Correct, but here is why: he got the message* right, but the explanation wrong. He is thus afraid that if he accepts that his explanation is wrong, his message will be seen as wrong too, so he is fighting for the explanation to save the message.

* The message (to his audience) being: "If you do not know what you are doing, use sRGB... if you do know, use Adobe RGB by all means."

[ripgriffith]

Correct, but here is why: he got the message* right, but the explanation wrong. He is thus afraid that if he accepts that his explanation is wrong, his message will be seen as wrong too, so he is fighting for the explanation to save the message.

* The message (to his audience) being: "If you do not know what you are doing, use sRGB... if you do know, use Adobe RGB by all means."

+1

[supercurio]

I thought Will Crocket's video on sRGB vs. Adobe RGB were a hoot but this guy Gary Fong is very wrong but a very funny guy.

Coming back on your first message, I just watched this video by Will Crocket : Color Profiling: http://youtu.be/_GdY4YqIzY4

And it's actually not bad at all (for as long as it lasts as it's cut in the middle).

Then on Gary Crocket event video, the same Will congratulate him for fighting against the "Adobe Mafia".
Strange.

[digitaldog]

Coming back on your first message, I just watched this video by Will Crocket : Color Profiling: http://youtu.be/_GdY4YqIzY4

That is a different video, I'll check it out when I get home. The original sRGB video was pulled I believe when Will moved to this new site.

[Rand47]

Correct, but here is why: he got the message* right, but the explanation wrong. He is thus afraid that if he accepts that his explanation is wrong, his message will be seen as wrong too, so he is fighting for the explanation to save the message.

* The message (to his audience) being: "If you do not know what you are doing, use sRGB... if you do know, use Adobe RGB by all means."

A great insight. You should post to that effect (kindly  ) on the YouTube page!

Rand

[supercurio]

Correct, but here is why: he got the message* right, but the explanation wrong. He is thus afraid that if he accepts that his explanation is wrong, his message will be seen as wrong too, so he is fighting for the explanation to save the message.

* The message (to his audience) being: "If you do not know what you are doing, use sRGB... if you do know, use Adobe RGB by all means."

After watching more of his YouTube videos (starting with introduction) and bio I realize why you cared as he's a known photographer and just enters the business of instructional videos.
The business model being selling premium subscriptions, with YouTube videos being a social marketing tool; exposing him being wrong on something probably threaten his business and initiative (in his perception), why he takes the whole thing wrong so far.
Unfortunately, with such insecurities, behavior and communication issues his career on YouTube is gonna be painful for him unless he makes adjustments.

Sad indeed, and if his influence grows we'll see this video being quoted increasingly.

[aaronchan]

Sorry, this guy does made a very good Lightsphere. I've been using it since it was out.
I know he is a good businessman.

But seriously! He knows nothing about color management.
When I do lecture, a lot of people don't really understand the difference between the actual number and the volume.
Feel bad for him because I found his mistake
But also feel bad for all of his viewer because they've just wasted their time......

aaron

[digitaldog]

But also feel bad for all of his viewer because they've just wasted their time......

Exactly. You can see the first few comments from the unsuspecting viewers with thumb's up and saying how great the video was. They have no idea they are drinking his silly cool aid. Gary is beyond hope but there is hope for those who stumble onto his site and think they are getting good information. I agree he could have just said something to the effect: If you don't know what anything but sRGB is, just use sRGB. Not that this would aid that much in a beginners overall education. Showing what sRGB data looks like when assumed to be Adobe RGB (1998), using the display profile instead of Photoshop (where he could have explained what Assign Profile does) is even worse. When I suggested to him that the message could have been to teach users that assuming the wrong color space upon a current set of numbers is a bad practice, he suggests his audience isn't going to sit through such explanations, it's over their heads. It's over HIS head.

[Hans Kruse]

That is a different video, I'll check it out when I get home. The original sRGB video was pulled I believe when Will moved to this new site.

At least he does mention that you can get external monitors that can display the Adobe RGB color space. Not sure I understand why he is so interesting as the are so many people who don't understand color management and many other topics btw

[digitaldog]

So the Crockett piece I referred to originally wasn't a video but an article on his old SmartShooter (oxymoron?) site and the URL is dead. I have a copy of it saved as a PDF but it's probably far from appropriate or legal to provide it in total. But some of the better pieces of text:

sRGB vs Adobe RGB: The Truth

by Will Crockett  last updated - December of 2004
 Controversy, arguments, name calling, forum flaming.
Over world politics? Taxes? paper or plastic?
Nope, over color spaces for professional photography!

FACT ONE: there are no printers with a color space (aka output space) that is larger (holding more volume of data) than sRGB.

FACT TWO: Just about all portrait labs want you to to send them files that are in the sRGB color space for printing. Why? Because their big expensive digital printers have an “input space" that allows them to print any pixel data as long as it fits inside this input space. Any data that is outside of this input space (called out of gamut data) will simply not be printed - it just disappears.

The input space or “mouth” of the lab grade printers is defined by a specific color space. That space is usually sRGB. So if your meatball sandwich is larger than sRGB, say it’s the size of the wider AdobeRGB space, you or your lab will need to convert that sandwich down to the sRGB size before sending it over to the printer. If not...it’s meatballs for you pal. ; )
Most wedding / portrait shooters may never need to capture and print any pixel that's outside sRGB which is why so many sucessful wedding / portrait shooters just set up for sRGB workflow and forget about it.

Just remember that no data outside of the sRGB space can be printed by the big portrait labs (without a custom printing fee or re-profiling) so if you shoot in Adobe RGB be sure to convert it to sRGB before submission.

He shows a 3D gamut map of sRGB and a Fuji PG 4500 and Epson 2200, the maps show lots of colors of both devices outside the sRGB gamut (meaning he doesn't understand how to read the map)!

In hindsight, Will got the piece far, far more accurately written with a far better message than Gary! He's a bit confused about the differences in sRGB and output color space gamut. But he's a color scientist in comparison to Gary's awful video.

[supercurio]

So the Crockett piece I referred to originally wasn't a video but an article on his old SmartShooter (oxymoron?) site and the URL is dead. I have a copy of it saved as a PDF but it's probably far from appropriate or legal to provide it in total. But some of the better pieces of text:

He shows a 3D gamut map of sRGB and a Fuji PG 4500 and Epson 2200, the maps show lots of colors of both devices outside the sRGB gamut (meaning he doesn't understand how to read the map)!

In hindsight, Will got the piece far, far more accurately written with a far better message than Gary! He's a bit confused about the differences in sRGB and output color space gamut. But he's a color scientist in comparison to Gary's awful video.

Oh right, thanks for sharing this old stuff for reference.
There was indeed a consistent error based on the simple assumption that printing happened in sRGB - end of story.
His explanation checked out as long as you accepted his facts as true.
Glad it has been corrected by putting the content offline.

Now that Will Crocket realized the conceptual error, it's hard to understand why he would encourage Gary's views.

Maybe both think that they're helping photographers not run into colorspace troubles (which might be true with some labs? I know nothing about that) by recommending sRGB, and that technicalities used to convince them really don't matter as long as they're heard.

Most people making something happily forget that a lot of what we do today is 99.99% (just made that up) built on top of previous work.
Take your digital camera, press a button, you get a JPEG image: your own creation!
Well...  

[supercurio]

Related but not exactly on the same topic, the same Gary Fong happily publishes a video named:

The Sony a6000 Extensive Highly Detailed Review

Yet in this other video titled Gary Fong Explains The Latest Sony Innovations, quoting:

Hi everybody this is Gary Fong, and it is a real pleasure to be here on behalf of Sony, the largest consumer electronics company in the world

In this second video, he starts by promoting briefly his diffuser products, and makes a live demo/ad for Sony face tracking autofocus.

Based on the fact his a6000 "review" lists only positive points, praising the product to no end, it tells a little about how this character cares about integrity in general.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... it tells a little about how this character cares about integrity in general.

He did say "on behalf of Sony," didn't he?

Anyone not living under a rock would understand that what follows is an infomercial, not independent review, and will take it as such.

[supercurio]

He did say "on behalf of Sony," didn't he?

Anyone not living under a rock would understand that what follows is an infomercial, not independent review, and will take it as such.

Sorry my post was probably not formulated well enough.

The issue is that Apr 7, 2014 he speaks in behalf of Sony.
Then Apr 20, 2014 he published a a6000 "review".

That is an ad, not a review.
He doesn't even bother listing a single con or limitation to find a balance that would make it a tad less biased content.

Hence the lack of integrity I describe here, as even native advertising disclose its nature.
He even goes as far as refuting it in the video description.

[digitaldog]

He did say "on behalf of Sony," didn't he?
Anyone not living under a rock would understand that what follows is an infomercial, not independent review, and will take it as such.

And yet, it appears Gary is aming for those folks living under a rock based on this video and replies to those who don't agree with him completely. That's what kind of pisses me off about his MO. He's looking for those beginners or rock duellers to feed upon.

[fdisilvestro]

Unfortunately that is a sign of the times. The only barrier to publish anything today is to log on a site and post; no peer review or editorial review, so you end up with plenty of misleading information by self-acclaimed experts. Color management is not the only topic that suffers this, also ETTR, RAW Vs JPeg, bit depth, and many more etc.

The worst part is not being wrong but not accepting when you're proven wrong and assume a defensive position.