Scottish Independende Debate

[stamper]

That argument has been banded about for a while now. Most people in the UK feel Scotland is an important part of the country, but let's be honest going it alone isn't really going to work for anyone least of all Scotland. It has a small population relative to it's area, it would completely disappear off the international map if it were a separate country.

Whilst I dislike the cronies at Westminster let's wake up a bit, putting a greedy eyed Salmon in power isn't going to change anything for the the "people" that is normal people who just want a better life and go about their day as we all do trying to get on. It's fantasy land for some people here if anyone has even a slight grasp of politics you'll see the same thing happen again and again..lots of promise lots of chest beating but when the dust settles and the flag waving finishes nothing is going to change for the people. This isn't just applicable to Scotland but is very visible in many countries it's just the way things are..politics = a complete waste of time and a poor form of democracy.

Don't get me wrong Salmond and his pals will love every minute of it he'll spend a fortune on international trips and living the high life. It's not going to make life better for the unemployed guy living in a run down bedsit in Glasgow on the dole it's not going to make your average family in Scotland better off. But it will give the SNP a power trip and things won't really change.

I don't like the situation in the UK with the Government but it's wasn't a lot better with previous ones either same old tired "change" and nothing really does much. Governments are best ignored it's a poor form of democracy. But if the people of Scotland want to go it alone fine fire away...just don't come crying when you have the same thing just a different face at the desk.

You are missing the point. In an independent Scotland nobody need vote for Salmond if they don't like him. Vote for a party without him and accept the result. BTW I think wee Eck should get a knighthood if Scotland votes YES

[Chairman Bill]

My wife is Scottish. Because we live in England, she doesn't get a vote. If Scotland votes for independence, she will find herself living in a foreign country, having had no say in the matter. Apparently that's all fine & allegedly democratic.

[barryfitzgerald]

You are missing the point. In an independent Scotland nobody need vote for Salmond if they don't like him. Vote for a party without him and accept the result. BTW I think wee Eck should get a knighthood if Scotland votes YES

Independence and the entire agenda is very much a power trip for the SNP that's my own personal view making a smaller set of cronies isn't going to help that much if at all.
You'll get exactly the same thing on a smaller scale Salmond and Co. will offer nothing new v other parties bar enjoying the limelight for a while

But it's up to the people frankly I'm amazed there are so many holes in the yes vote argument they have no currency plans (bar trying to use the British pound which won't happen for obvious reasons) quite a lot of jobs will also be move south of the border. It's far too risky a move and honestly it won't do an awful lot for the people.

The general debate is focussed on Scotland, but there are consequences for the rest of the UK for starters we'll be stuck with a Tory Government due to the loss of opposition MP's to a Scottish parliament and fragmenting the infrastructure and country would be a disaster of epic proportions for everyone including Scotland. If they do vote yes expect utter turmoil

[jjj]

My wife is Scottish. Because we live in England, she doesn't get a vote. If Scotland votes for independence, she will find herself living in a foreign country, having had no say in the matter. Apparently that's all fine & allegedly democratic.

I think that this is one of the problems with the whole independence thing. You can vote in UK elections if British and currently living in say Europe, But if British/Scottish and currently living in a different part of the UK, you cannot vote on Scotland's future even if that is your home.

[Chairman Bill]

I think that this is one of the problems with the whole independence thing. You can vote in UK elections if British and currently living in say Europe, But if British/Scottish and currently living in a different part of the UK, you cannot vote on Scotland's future even if that is your home.

And I'm sure that was a deliberate move by Salmond - Scots living in England or Wales are more likely to vote no. He's more interested in his pet obsession than the will of the people. In that he's pretty much like every other bloody politician.

I love the fact that whatever happens, the Scots have made Cameron cry, but I'd dearly like to see a fair proportion of them reduce Salmond to tears too, come Friday morning.

[jjj]

And I'm sure that was a deliberate move by Salmond - Scots living in England or Wales are more likely to vote no.

Not sure whose decision that was, but no way would Salmond agree to Scots living in a different part of the UK having a vote for the reasons you say. Despite the fact that Brits living abroad can vote in UK elections.

He's more interested in his pet obsession than the will of the people. In that he's pretty much like every other bloody politician.

One in particular, Farrage.
Baffles me that people who would never, ever vote for Farrage are supporting Salmond.

[Dave (Isle of Skye)]

You are missing the point. In an independent Scotland nobody need vote for Salmond if they don't like him. Vote for a party without him and accept the result. BTW I think wee Eck should get a knighthood if Scotland votes YES

Which from your response above, would indicate that you didn't actually take the time to read Ewan Morrison's very enlightening article before you replied, I will therefore save you the time by quoting from the article below, which perfectly describes how it is in fact the members of the yes campaign that are missing the point:

...the factions within the Yes camp are all dreaming that they will have more power in the new Scotland ‘after the referendum.’ Bigger fish in the smaller pond. The Greens will have more power than they ever could in the UK. Business leaders will have more influence over Scottish government. The hard left will finally realise its dream of seizing power and creating a perfect socialist nation. Each group is dreaming of this fresh new country (as clean as a white sheet, as unsullied as a newborn) in which they themselves dominate and hold control. Clearly these groups can’t all have more power and the banner they share is a fantasy of a unity that is not actually there. It’s a Freudian slip when converts claim that the first thing that will happen ‘after independence’ is that the SNP will be voted out – it betrays the fantasy that each interest group has of its own coming dominance.

Stamper, Stamper, Stamper!

Surely by now you have relaised the futility of trying to have a sensible discussion with those who have patently been brainwashed by the Daily Mail.

Relax, Man.

I was a Labour voter and long time member of a trade union when I was young enough and daft enough to trust what the politicians were feeding me. I have never bought nor read the Daily Mail, so you are making assumptions and incorrect assumptions at that, which just indicates how it is the yes campaign supporters that have been brainwashed into an unquestioning mob fuelled by an almost religious zeal, that can only fight against the logic of how catastrophic the situation would become after a yes vote when questioned, with hyperbolic rhetoric.

God help us all when this yes mess is finally over, as we try to rebuild the unity and trust that we once enjoyed so much in this wee small isle, it could take years I fear.

Dave

[jjj]

Which from your response above, would indicate that you didn't actually take the time to read Ewan Morrison's very enlightening article before you replied, I will therefore save you the time by quoting from the article below, which perfectly describes how it is in fact the members of the yes campaign that are missing the point:

I've always thought that the Yes supporters were missing that point too. It's not like local councils are any better, less venal or less corrupt than national governments.
All that will happen is numpties in Westminster will be replaced by numpties in Holyrood. Not being cynical, that's just how the world works.

I think the whole article hits the nail on the head for me. Even if I wanted to vote Yes, I wouldn't, mainly because the whole thing is built on nothing more than optimism and reality is being kept locked up where it cannot be seen.
Sadly I can't vote as a I live in the wrong part of the the same country that is being directly affected by this.

[deejjjaaaa]

I think the whole article hits the nail on the head for me. Even if I wanted to vote Yes, I wouldn't, mainly because the whole thing is built on nothing more than optimism and reality is being kept locked up where it cannot be seen.

"Tradition is the Backbone of the Spineless.", from your signature...

[barryfitzgerald]

"Tradition is the Backbone of the Spineless.", from your signature...

I think the point is it's all hype and very little details so many problems yet so few solutions are offered so many shared resources from police, military, no currency plans just a hope, no real details just an idea.

Personally I detest flag waving waving (in any respect) and that's all the yes campaign has vote yes more as a protest than a reality. Yes means job losses, loss of status more red tape more hassle for everyone including north and south of the border. Yes is simply an idea..and not a lot more. Yes sounds great, but it has no substance and that's the problem. Replacing Westminster cronies with Hollyrood ones will solve nothing at all, Cameron power grab becomes a Salmond one. He's out for himself in the way Cameron is and the others they all are. You really expect a big change..the piano player might be changed but the tune will be very much the same with a few extra runs and flourishes.

Not a lot changed with Obama either same story new face and well a few bits but nothing major. Where's the hope and change promised? If you folks can't work out the type of people who become politicians and see past their wafer thin marketing then well there is no help. Salmond is a phoney as any English politician he's just another run of power grabbing politicians who will say ANYTHING to get elected. If you gave any of these people a real job to do they'd run a mile..what they do is talk and not a lot more.

[PhotoEcosse]

Another of the deceptions and false promises by the Westminster Liars' Club is blown apart:

[deejjjaaaa]

I think the point is it's all hype and very little details so many problems yet so few solutions are offered so many shared resources from police, military, no currency plans just a hope, no real details just an idea.

a lot of splits happened w/o any plans at all... for as long as there are no territory disputes nothing to worry about.

Not a lot changed with Obama either same story new face and well a few bits but nothing major.

that's exactly why it is a prime time to dissolve the union...

[stamper]

Personally I think that only people resident in Scotland should be able to vote. I don't think that people who have departed Scotland and don't intend to return should influence the vote. That goes for the film stars and their ilk as well. People should be thinking about the consequences of a no vote and what Gideon Osborne will do you. If a ship is sinking  - the UK - and there is a lifeboat bobbing about  - the SNP - then it is wise to take to the lifeboat even though there isn't a certainty of reaching shore. I'm taking to the lifeboat tomorrow.

[barryfitzgerald]

Another of the deceptions and false promises by the Westminster Liars' Club is blown apart:

That's a rather cynical bit of SNP propaganda
Like a lot of tory MP's they're not happy that the financial arrangements with devolution and other areas including debt etc. It has very little to do with the real world though

As for Westminster liars Salmond is every bit the bare faced liar the Westminster cronies are if not even more so.
Tomorrow's vote is an ego trip for Salmond desperate to grab some power for himself and you'll see the same disadvantaged people still in the same situation 10 years from now. Nothing changes despite new faces

Regarding splits the USA is a good example what goes on in a farm in Iowa has very little representation in Washington. Democracy is a very poor better than nothing option, but history has shown time and again nothing really changed the same greed the same vested interests and clicks. Might as well bring the Romans back they had order but were corrupt from top to bottom too, since then nothing changed much maybe a little less blood on swords and they eventually exchange their weapons for cheque books and suits. Might be time to wake up a little here...

The concept of a "free Scotland" sounds great but you're no more free with the Salmond cronies than you are with the Westminster ones.

[jjj]

"Tradition is the Backbone of the Spineless.", from your signature...

Which has zero bearing on what I said, so what is your point?

[jjj]

Personally I think that only people resident in Scotland should be able to vote. I don't think that people who have departed Scotland and don't intend to return should influence the vote.

So how do you determine if people are going to return or not?
People may be away on a contract and hope to return, people may decide they miss family and return and so on...

That goes for the film stars and their ilk as well. People should be thinking about the consequences of a no vote and what Gideon Osborne will do you. If a ship is sinking  - the UK - and there is a lifeboat bobbing about  - the SNP - then it is wise to take to the lifeboat even though there isn't a certainty of reaching shore. I'm taking to the lifeboat tomorrow.

Though the thing that strikes me about the yes camp, is that they believe there is a lifeboat [or whatever] despite there being no evidence of one.

[jjj]

As for Westminster liars Salmond is every bit the bare faced liar the Westminster cronies are if not even more so.
Tomorrow's vote is an ego trip for Salmond desperate to grab some power for himself and you'll see the same disadvantaged people still in the same situation 10 years from now. Nothing changes despite new faces

Not been able to work out what the difference between Salmond and Farrage is yet. Other than Salmond being further along the nationalist nonsense route. They sound very, very similar.

[stamper]

Quote JJJ

So how do you determine if people are going to return or not?
People may be away on a contract and hope to return, people may decide they miss family and return and so on...

unquote

If only the residents get to vote then you don't have to worry about the above. For me it is the lesser of the evils in tomorrow's vote. The Tories are the evil ones imo. I don't expect a free Scotland will be the land of milk and honey but a UK after a no vote will an appalling mess when austerity comes into being.

[jjj]

a lot of splits happened w/o any plans at all... for as long as there are no territory disputes nothing to worry about.

That's the typical naive nonsense the Yes campaign is based on.
They'd have clinched a victory if they had real plans based on reality and the uncertainty that the whole thing entails. Too many people don't believe their empty promises and that has cost them a lot of votes.

I'll repost Dave's link where's a Yes supporter explains why gave up on voting for independence as blind and controlling optimism is not something valid to vote for.

[stamper]

Not been able to work out what the difference between Salmond and Farrage is yet. Other than Salmond being further along the nationalist nonsense route. They sound very, very similar.

The difference is that Salmond is an elected leader of an elected party. Something that Farage will never be. What he will do is split the vote in England which means that Ed Milliband will never become an elected leader.