Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 17   Go Down

Author Topic: Scottish Independende Debate  (Read 62790 times)

john beardsworth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4756
    • My photography site
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #80 on: August 12, 2014, 06:12:15 am »

Nor is Wales, which is a Principality.

By that score neither is England, which is a kingdom ("of England and Wales"), or Scotland which is also a kingdom. Neither is the USA, which is a republic. In other words, being a country is distinct from whatever its form of government may be.
Logged

AreBee

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 638
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #81 on: August 12, 2014, 07:00:57 am »

John,

Quote
In other words, being a country is distinct from whatever its form of government may be.

I agree.
Logged

AreBee

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 638
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #82 on: August 12, 2014, 07:53:03 am »

John,

Quote
The UK government has advice that currency union would not be in the interests of the remainder of the UK. As Rob said, "This has been shown to be true, and shown to be not true, depending on which side one listens to" but it's clear the English parties believe that advice…

No, it is not. Time and again your argument has rested on the premise that what you have been told by the English [sic] parties is the truth. Surely you know better than to trust information provided to you by politicians, which are among the least trusted people in society.

Quote
It's probably simple colonialism, if that makes you feel any better.

Do you suggest that Scotland is a colony?

Quote
Anyway, doesn't polling indicate most Scots want to hold on to England?

The result of recent polls suggests that the Scottish electorate would like to remain a part of the UK.
Logged

john beardsworth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4756
    • My photography site
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #83 on: August 12, 2014, 08:50:10 am »

No, it is not. Time and again your argument has rested on the premise that what you have been told by the English [sic] parties is the truth. Surely you know better than to trust information provided to you by politicians, which are among the least trusted people in society.

I agree with you that it comes down to "depending on which side one listens to" and just as you might listen to the latter case, the English parties have chosen to listen to the former. Why do you deny their sincerity? Can't the sincerity of those listening to pro-independence forecasts be questioned too? Plus, one year away from an election, English parties may be pretty clued up on English voters' views of currency unions. 

Do you not agree that independence will give Scots power to take their economy in a different direction from England's (Swinney was talking corporate tax changes just yesterday)? In fact you'd want that, wouldn't you? All that extra oil west of the Hebrides won't make Scotland's economy any more like England's, will it? Similarly, independence from Scotland would mean Parliamentary and economic power in England will shift even more towards regions like London and the South which have the very least in common with Scotland's economy, so you'd expect England to go its own way too. It might not be on a German-Greek scale, but divergence is very likely and was of course one of the key items identified in the UK Treasury advice against a currency union. But hey, those who listen to those arguments don't know any better than trusting the politicians.....

Do you suggest that Scotland is a colony?

Don't you recognise a wind up? More seriously though, it may not be an attractive reason but don't you think that post-imperial attitude is fundamentally why "England is trying so hard to hold on to us"? It's certainly not for the love of deep fried Mars bars, Rabbie Burns and bagpipes.
Logged

AreBee

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 638
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #84 on: August 12, 2014, 10:46:31 am »

John,

Quote
I agree with you that it comes down to "depending on which side one listens to" and just as you might listen to the latter case, the English parties have chosen to listen to the former. Why do you deny their sincerity? Can't the sincerity of those listening to pro-independence forecasts be questioned too? Plus, one year away from an election, English parties may be pretty clued up on English voters' views of currency unions.

I do not doubt the sincerity of politicians. I do, however, doubt their honesty, Isaac’s comment notwithstanding. :) Nor do I listen to only one side of the argument.

The arguments of those advocating independence should absolutely be challenged. I have not claimed otherwise. All I have suggested is that we treat what we read and view in the media with a high degree of scepticism. Unionist politicians may well be correct, but they may well be incorrect. The same applies to pro-independence politicians. We simply do not know, and will not know prior to the referendum.

Quote
Do you not agree that independence will give Scots power to take their economy in a different direction from England's (Swinney was talking corporate tax changes just yesterday)? In fact you'd want that, wouldn't you? All that extra oil west of the Hebrides won't make Scotland's economy any more like England's, will it? Similarly, independence from Scotland would mean Parliamentary and economic power in England will shift even more towards regions like London and the South which have the very least in common with Scotland's economy, so you'd expect England to go its own way too.

I agree with the portion italicised above. I’m less convinced about the remainder.

Quote
…divergence is very likely and was of course one of the key items identified in the UK Treasury advice against a currency union. But hey, those who listen to those arguments don't know any better than trusting the politicians...

Please do not misrepresent what I have written.

Quote
Don't you recognise a wind up?

The more important question is why you repeatedly feel the need to ”wind up”. You do yourself a disservice.

Quote
…it may not be an attractive reason but don't you think that post-imperial attitude is fundamentally why "England is trying so hard to hold on to us"?

No, for such an attitude would indicate that sentiment took precedence over economics, and I do not consider that to be true.

I do not consider that “England is trying to hold on to us”. In my experience the English generally are ambivalent about Scotland becoming independent. I do consider that Westminster is trying its utmost to create uncertainty in the mind of the Scottish electorate in order to “hold onto us”.  There must be a reason, and we both agree it does not arise out of the goodness of Westminster’s heart.

No government would wish to support a country which is a net burden on it. Therefore, Scotland presumably is a net asset. In any event, independence is about so much more than currency, despite the No campaign’s extraordinary attempt (and success to date) to turn the referendum into a question not being asked.
Logged

Vladimirovich

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1311
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #85 on: August 12, 2014, 11:12:39 am »

Do you not agree that independence will give Scots power to take their economy in a different direction from England's (Swinney was talking corporate tax changes just yesterday)? In fact you'd want that, wouldn't you?
the greatest benefit is that UK sans Scotland will have even less money to maintain nukes...
Logged

john beardsworth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4756
    • My photography site
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #86 on: August 12, 2014, 11:25:58 am »

I do not consider that “England is trying to hold on to us”. In my experience the English generally are ambivalent about Scotland becoming independent. I do consider that Westminster is trying its utmost to create uncertainty in the mind of the Scottish electorate in order to “hold onto us”.  There must be a reason, and we both agree it does not arise out of the goodness of Westminster’s heart.

No government would wish to support a country which is a net burden on it. Therefore, Scotland presumably is a net asset. In any event, independence is about so much more than currency, despite the No campaign’s extraordinary attempt (and success to date) to turn the referendum into a question not being asked.


Well, perhaps it should be? OK, obviously you can't frame a question around individual details, and the question itself is rightly a simple Yes or No that leaves no doubt. But like any decision, you want to know roughly what you're voting for, and so the direction of the economy needs to be examined.

Ambivalence is a fair enough word, but I think the manifesto commitments also reflect a sense of wanting any break to be complete.
Logged

AreBee

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 638
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #87 on: August 12, 2014, 02:16:29 pm »

John,

Quote
Well, perhaps it should be? OK, obviously you can't frame a question around individual details, and the question itself is rightly a simple Yes or No that leaves no doubt. But like any decision, you want to know roughly what you're voting for, and so the direction of the economy needs to be examined.

We know exactly what we are voting for - "Should Scotland be an independent country?"

We know what currency has been proposed - Sterling. We know that a currency union has been proposed. We know that the rUK cannot be forced to accept it, regardless of whose interest it is best in. Nobody seriously considers anything other than a Scottish currency pegged one to one with Sterling in the event that the rUK rejects a currency union.

I have no idea what will happen in one year's time, or two, or three. How about you? Perhaps you can tell me the future. The fact is, none of us know what's around the corner. The financial fate of an independent Scotland will be determined based on responsible fiscal behaviour and by events outside of its control in the global financial market. The same applies to every other country in the world not debt free. In other words, all but a tiny minority.

Is that sufficiently "rough"?

EDIT: http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/matt-qvortrup-financial-perspective-on-independence-1-3506541
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 02:35:38 pm by AreBee »
Logged

john beardsworth

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4756
    • My photography site
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #88 on: August 12, 2014, 03:41:25 pm »

Rough, certainly.
Logged

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4705
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2014, 07:05:59 pm »

I am wondering why - like most Scots - England is trying so hard to hold on to us. A lot of the English see us as subsidy junkies, which isn't true.
Cough! Wales and Northern Ireland.
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

viewfinder

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 124
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #90 on: August 17, 2014, 09:22:42 am »

As ever this is going to be totally unfair to England.    it's all very well for Scots and Welsh to vent anguish about whether to 'remain' but us English are not going to get the chance to give the Scots (and welsh) the elbow as many of us would like to do......Personally I have had enough of  'little Mr Salmond' now.
Logged

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #91 on: August 18, 2014, 03:25:11 am »

"but us English are not going to get the chance to give the Scots (and welsh) the elbow as many of us would like to do"

We are going to beat you to it. ;) ;D

PhotoEcosse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 712
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #92 on: August 19, 2014, 05:29:43 am »

There are many very powerful reasons why I will be voting "Yes" in the referendum. One of the lesser is that I don't like Mr Salmond and I dislike nationalism. Once we have independence we will be able to get rid of both Salmond and the SNP (ask yourself: why would anyone vote for them once independence has been obtained?)

Too many Scots are still erroneously thinking that voting "Yes" equates with voting for Salmond and the SNP.

Neat campaign poster released a few days ago - a mugshot of Salmond with the slogan "You are not voting for me. You are voting for You."
Logged
************************************
"Reality is an illusion caused by lack of alcohol."
Alternatively, "Life begins at the far end of your comfort zone."

Jeremy Roussak

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9263
    • site
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2014, 02:09:19 am »

There are many very powerful reasons why I will be voting "Yes" in the referendum. One of the lesser is that I don't like Mr Salmond and I dislike nationalism. Once we have independence we will be able to get rid of both Salmond and the SNP (ask yourself: why would anyone vote for them once independence has been obtained?)

Will anyone vote for them after they've failed to persuade a majority of Scots to vote for independence?

Jeremy
Logged

PhotoEcosse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 712
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #94 on: August 24, 2014, 11:24:18 am »

Will anyone vote for them after they've failed to persuade a majority of Scots to vote for independence?

Jeremy

There is an old Scottish saying, "The deil (i.e. devil) has a' the best tunes"

That is coming out in the referendum campaign and it is certainly not the SNP alone that is persuading Scots to vote for independence. The "Yes" campaign is a very broad church and it does, indeed, have all the best tunes, all the best speeches, all the best jokes (yes, that matters), all the best slogans, most of the posters and, according to an analysis in yesterday's "Herald" (one of Scotland's two quality broadsheets), is supported by the best writers, historians, economists, lawyers, painters, doctors, farmers, academics, constitutional theorists, political thinkers, and more.

I think that where the "Yes" campaign have been very clever is that, between now and the voting day, they are rolling out several influential supporters every day whereas the "no" campaign appear to have shot their bolt some time ago.
Logged
************************************
"Reality is an illusion caused by lack of alcohol."
Alternatively, "Life begins at the far end of your comfort zone."

Dave (Isle of Skye)

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2628
  • I've even written a book about it
    • SkyePhotoGuide.com
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #95 on: August 26, 2014, 11:25:10 am »

There is an old Scottish saying, "The deil (i.e. devil) has a' the best tunes"

That is coming out in the referendum campaign and it is certainly not the SNP alone that is persuading Scots to vote for independence. The "Yes" campaign is a very broad church and it does, indeed, have all the best tunes, all the best speeches, all the best jokes (yes, that matters), all the best slogans, most of the posters and, according to an analysis in yesterday's "Herald" (one of Scotland's two quality broadsheets), is supported by the best writers, historians, economists, lawyers, painters, doctors, farmers, academics, constitutional theorists, political thinkers, and more.

I think that where the "Yes" campaign have been very clever is that, between now and the voting day, they are rolling out several influential supporters every day whereas the "no" campaign appear to have shot their bolt some time ago.

After the debate last night, this image started popping up on the net, is it a joke I wonder and if so, on who?



Dave
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 11:26:47 am by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
Logged

Colorado David

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1178
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #96 on: August 26, 2014, 01:29:40 pm »

Here's an interesting article; http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/08/25/Scottish-Independence-Must-Happen

I'll duck now and keep my head down. ;D ;)

Dave (Isle of Skye)

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2628
  • I've even written a book about it
    • SkyePhotoGuide.com
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #97 on: August 27, 2014, 10:19:38 am »

I'll duck now and keep my head down. ;D ;)

Come on David, this is a place for a civilised discussion on what is turning out to be the huge ramifications of SI for both the Y/N sides, so no need to stir things up more than they are already.

Dave
Logged

Jeremy Roussak

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9263
    • site
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #98 on: August 28, 2014, 03:41:23 am »

Come on David, this is a place for a civilised discussion on what is turning out to be the huge ramifications of SI for both the Y/N sides, so no need to stir things up more than they are already.

The writer's views are forcibly expressed, but it would be a mistake to imagine that he's the only Englishman who holds them. The concept of Scotland's leaving the UK is one regarded by many with, as W S Gilbert put it about something else, "an equanimity bordering upon indifference" and by many others with a degree of enthusiasm.

Jeremy
Logged

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882
Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #99 on: August 28, 2014, 04:02:27 am »

I am wondering why someone - English or some other nationality - who isn't entitled to vote should have a view?
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 17   Go Up