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Author Topic: Scottish Independende Debate  (Read 57172 times)

kingscurate

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2014, 12:30:46 pm »

No matter how the miners protested, peaceful or violent, they were going to get shafted.
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jjj

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2014, 12:46:38 pm »

No matter how the miners protested, peaceful or violent, they were going to get shafted.
If you want to try and hold a government hostage which was the case and not a simple protest, you aren't going to earn yourself any favours. Not that it was a peaceful or pleasant.
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Justinr

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2014, 05:21:52 pm »

If you want to try and hold a government hostage which was the case and not a simple protest, you aren't going to earn yourself any favours. Not that it was a peaceful or pleasant.

Indeed, the police were very heavy handed, but then they had got a hefty pay rise whereas the miners hadn't so why they were quite so aggressive is unclear, you'd have thought it would have been the other way round.
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jjj

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2014, 05:27:40 pm »

The police were helping the government clamp down on the miners, so of course they were kept sweet. The miners were not exactly nice either. I saw them at first hand at Orgreave and they were atagonistically provoking the police for a reaction. Which they got during the 'Battle of Orgreave'
At least the police didn't kill people.
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Justinr

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2014, 05:35:54 pm »

The police were helping the government clamp down on the miners, so of course they were kept sweet. The miners were not exactly nice either. I saw them at first hand at Orgreave and they were atagonistically provoking the police for a reaction. Which they got during the 'Battle of Orgreave'
At least the police didn't kill people.

The police are meant to keep law and order, not help the government. If we accept that the government were corrupt in 'keeping them sweet' may we also accept that he government were less than honest in handling the situation?

You mention Orgreave, here's another reference to it -

 The Independent Police Complaints Commission is considering an investigation into police fabrication of evidence during the trials that followed battles between police and miners at the Orgreave coke depot in June 1984 (95 cases collapsed a year later)


http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/apr/05/miners-strike-books-david-edgar-rereading
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markadams99

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2014, 07:01:57 pm »

I'm pleased to say that I helped break the miners' strike by buying in millions of tonnes of fuel oil from all over the world to supply UK oil-fired power stations. The biggest supplier by far was Nafta, the Soviet oil export agency.

Justinr

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2014, 02:46:56 am »

I'm pleased to say that I helped break the miners' strike by buying in millions of tonnes of fuel oil from all over the world to supply UK oil-fired power stations. The biggest supplier by far was Nafta, the Soviet oil export agency.

I trust you spent your silver wisely and hope that you and your  contribution to Britain's glorious freedom is more readily appreciated than that of the Blessed Maggie who ended her days shut away in a gilded cage, unloved and deserted by even her own people until they could enjoy the spectacle of burying her.
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David Anderson

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2014, 05:18:26 am »

What has America got to do with a single currency? Or peace for that matter?

I would write a witty response in Japanese or German if not for my only partially complete American public school education.  ;)
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PhotoEcosse

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2014, 06:01:28 am »

The police are meant to keep law and order, not help the government.



A wee bit naive, maybe?

After all, it is the government who define "law and order".
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stamper

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2014, 06:35:13 am »

Of course, similar arguments were in favour of the UK entering the Euro, and that never happened. It's not worth commenting on how you've spun whatever Milliband said, but he and the others obviously believe that English voters want manifesto promises that there won't be a currency union. What's so hard about accepting that the other person won't tango and that you're going to need an alternative?

No spin John. It was on the BBC's news channel on Thursday. The commentator had to ask him several times before he agreed with him. He stated that it would never happen when he became Prime minister. I don't think he has much chance of that possibly because of his lack lustre performances the party will replace him in the autumn or the voters will not vote for him. He is a light weight at best and and at the worst clueless? :(

markadams99

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2014, 06:51:31 am »

I'm pleased to say that I helped break the miners' strike by buying in millions of tonnes of fuel oil from all over the world to supply UK oil-fired power stations. The biggest supplier by far was Nafta, the Soviet oil export agency.

I trust you spent your silver wisely and hope that you and your  contribution to Britain's glorious freedom is more readily appreciated than that of the Blessed Maggie who ended her days shut away in a gilded cage, unloved and deserted by even her own people until they could enjoy the spectacle of burying her.
Oh, "Ding-dong the witch is dead" and all that stuff? It's true, Progressivism is a mental illness.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 06:55:57 am by markadams99 »
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john beardsworth

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2014, 07:25:17 am »

No spin John. It was on the BBC's news channel on Thursday. The commentator had to ask him several times before he agreed with him. He stated that it would never happen when he became Prime minister. I don't think he has much chance of that possibly because of his lack lustre performances the party will replace him in the autumn or the voters will not vote for him. He is a light weight at best and and at the worst clueless? :(

From what I read afterwards, your paraphrasing was indeed misleading and failed to mention that he continued to say that other economic factors outweighed any additional business costs. So yes, it wasn't worth commenting. Whatever his electoral prospects, he's been pretty astute at reading the public mood over a series of major issues and doesn't exactly need to be a political genius to call this one right.
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Justinr

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2014, 07:25:45 am »

Oh, "Ding-dong the witch is dead" and all that stuff? It's true, Progressivism is a mental illness.

Anything can be considered a mental illness by those who oppose it, often through prejudice rather than logic or compassion.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 07:29:13 am by Justinr »
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Justinr

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2014, 07:36:30 am »


A wee bit naive, maybe?

After all, it is the government who define "law and order".

Having a police force at the beck and call of a government is hardly what is normally recognised as a democracy, the term 'dictatorship' is more often applied to such situations, but since the UK has one one of the most spied upon populations in the world I think it fair to conclude that they are happy living in a quasi police state so perhaps you may have a point. It's why I got the family out of the place BTW.
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AreBee

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2014, 08:32:33 am »

John,

Quote
From what I read afterwards, your paraphrasing was indeed misleading and failed to mention that he continued to say that other economic factors outweighed any additional business costs.

From this piece in The Scotsman:

Last night, both the Tories and the Lib Dems joined Labour in signalling their intention to rule out a shared pound in their 2015 manifestos.

Asked if the Conservative Party would make the pledge part of its general election platform, a senior Tory source said: “Yes, it would. In the unlikely event of a Yes vote, we’d make it crystal clear that a currency union is not going to happen.” A Lib Dem spokesman said: “A currency union would be in the interests of no-one and we therefore cannot support it. Our position would be unchanged and our manifesto would reflect that.”

Mr Miliband became the first party leader to announce his plans during a press conference in Glasgow yesterday. He said Labour’s election platform for 2015 would make it “very clear that we’re not going to sign up to a currency union”. Asked if it would be guaranteed in the election manifesto, he twice gave an emphatic “Yes”, adding he would “rule it out” if he was elected prime minister.


It would appear to be beyond question that Ed Miliband will include in the Labour party 2015 manifesto a commitment to prevent a currency union in the event of a Yes vote. That Tory and Liberal Democrat spokesmen have confirmed their intension to write the same into their respective parties' manifesto dispels the notion that Ed Miliband’s words were taken out of context.

If you have evidence to the contrary please present it.
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Justinr

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2014, 08:48:57 am »

John,

From this piece in The Scotsman:

Last night, both the Tories and the Lib Dems joined Labour in signalling their intention to rule out a shared pound in their 2015 manifestos.

Asked if the Conservative Party would make the pledge part of its general election platform, a senior Tory source said: “Yes, it would. In the unlikely event of a Yes vote, we’d make it crystal clear that a currency union is not going to happen.” A Lib Dem spokesman said: “A currency union would be in the interests of no-one and we therefore cannot support it. Our position would be unchanged and our manifesto would reflect that.”

Mr Miliband became the first party leader to announce his plans during a press conference in Glasgow yesterday. He said Labour’s election platform for 2015 would make it “very clear that we’re not going to sign up to a currency union”. Asked if it would be guaranteed in the election manifesto, he twice gave an emphatic “Yes”, adding he would “rule it out” if he was elected prime minister.


It would appear to be beyond question that Ed Miliband will include in the Labour party 2015 manifesto a commitment to prevent a currency union in the event of a Yes vote. That Tory and Liberal Democrat spokesmen have confirmed their intension to write the same into their respective parties' manifesto dispels the notion that Ed Miliband’s words were taken out of context.

If you have evidence to the contrary please present it.


On the other hand it could just be a scare tactic to frighten people into voting no.
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stamper

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2014, 08:49:45 am »

From what I read afterwards, your paraphrasing was indeed misleading and failed to mention that he continued to say that other economic factors outweighed any additional business costs. So yes, it wasn't worth commenting. Whatever his electoral prospects, he's been pretty astute at reading the public mood over a series of major issues and doesn't exactly need to be a political genius to call this one right.

John did you see the television interview?

stamper

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2014, 08:55:14 am »

On the other hand it could just be a scare tactic to frighten people into voting no.

That is exactly what is going on. Alistair Darling a year earlier was in favour of the currency union and changed his mind to suit politics. Not the only thing he changed. He was a follower of Trotsky at one time. Milliband is shitting himself because in the event of a Yes vote he will lose 29 Scottish MP's and the Labour party will be eternally in opposition. ;) :)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 08:58:11 am by stamper »
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john beardsworth

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2014, 09:19:18 am »

John,

From this piece in The Scotsman:

Last night, both the Tories and the Lib Dems joined Labour in signalling their intention to rule out a shared pound in their 2015 manifestos.

Asked if the Conservative Party would make the pledge part of its general election platform, a senior Tory source said: “Yes, it would. In the unlikely event of a Yes vote, we’d make it crystal clear that a currency union is not going to happen.” A Lib Dem spokesman said: “A currency union would be in the interests of no-one and we therefore cannot support it. Our position would be unchanged and our manifesto would reflect that.”

Mr Miliband became the first party leader to announce his plans during a press conference in Glasgow yesterday. He said Labour’s election platform for 2015 would make it “very clear that we’re not going to sign up to a currency union”. Asked if it would be guaranteed in the election manifesto, he twice gave an emphatic “Yes”, adding he would “rule it out” if he was elected prime minister.


It would appear to be beyond question that Ed Miliband will include in the Labour party 2015 manifesto a commitment to prevent a currency union in the event of a Yes vote. That Tory and Liberal Democrat spokesmen have confirmed their intension to write the same into their respective parties' manifesto dispels the notion that Ed Miliband’s words were taken out of context.

If you have evidence to the contrary please present it.


Sorry, why are you asking me? These quotes seem consistent with what I keep saying.

Maybe I should have quoted it, but the misleading paraphrasing was "Ed Milliband stated on television that if he became prime minister he wouldn't agree to a currency union. He then agreed with the interviewer that the policy would cost English business' hundreds of millions of pounds" - misleading because he continued to say that other financial considerations outweighed those costs.
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stamper

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2014, 09:46:22 am »

Did you see the program? You seem to be quoting an edited written version from some source? What are the other things that outweigh the costs?
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