Hasselblad CFV50c

[Ken R]

The CFV50c *is* the Euro 5K back they should be selling, except they cannot afford to sell it at that price because of their historical lineup pricing. I have a feeling that half the members of this forum would go and get one at that price.

Edmund

Ahh, that magical number (price) that strikes the perfect balance between volume of sales and profit margin...wish I knew what it was (in a lot of things not just the Hassy back ) $5k might be too low though. Undoubtedly they would sell a bunch of them but would it be worth it for them? Hard to know without knowing the actual cost of the back.

[crispy]

For some reason the price in Japan for this back is around 1,000,000 yen ($9800).  It could be a special introductory price (at least one shop hints at that).  I have a feeling that Japan is the primary market for this back.

Krister

[henrikfoto]

The most important would be live view on these old cameras.
Why is that so hard to make?

[Theodoros]

That happened for the same reason it always does on fora - someone above was not able to just be happy for Hasselblad's good news; they had to throw in a cut at Phase while they were at it. And then the Phase crew naturally jumped in to defend/clarify. But it's hardly surprising that threads get derailed - it's a small sector and you can't really discuss a big development for one group without considering the implications for the other(s).

Ray

Hass could do really well if they weren't so full of arrogance... They consider all criticism as offence and the act in the opposite direction they are advised by the possible customers... My advises to them...

1. Focus on the H4X (or a replacement) as your main camera body and sell it to everyone...
2. Turn all your backs (40, 50, 50c, 50ms, 200ms, 60) to "interchangeable camera mount" (like CFs where) and make them "self powered"....
3. Allow compatibility for camera powered older backs, so that they may work to the new "open" system...

In fact it is surprising they are still around after so many (and completely insane) continuous marketing mistakes their stupid (and suicidal) marketing department has done... P1 never won a race... it was Hassy alone that took their own eyes off... From thereafter, they're just ...blind!!!! 

[torger]

A 5k euro pricing is most likely possible, high price is to cover development cost, not manufacturing. As it cannot be used on the H system it would not hurt the regular pro sales which can cover the development cost for this back if sales volumes fail. This is an excellent back for nostalgic V system amateurs and artists. My guess is that they could make more money with a lower price point, but they don't dare.

The current price is almost exactly the same as for the old CFV-50. With the same pricing I think it will sell just as good/bad as the old. Iso is better with this new, but sensor is smaller and tech cam compatibility is worse. So some will like this new one better while others actually prefer the old.

I am surprised that this product appeared at all, I thought the CCD CFV-50 would be the last V system product. My guess is this is nothing more than a "why not?"-product spinoff from the H5D-50c, ie all real development risk and cost is carried by that.

But with a real V system strategy aimed at middle class amateurs I think they could make some real money out of this.

[henrikfoto]

But why no live view??

[eronald]

But why no live view??

My feeling - from what someone said here - is that they ran out of dev time, and wanted to bring to market, hoping to update later with added features. 

Edmund

[ondebanks]

Hass could do really well if they weren't so full of arrogance... They consider all criticism as offence and the act in the opposite direction they are advised by the possible customers... My advises to them...

1. Focus on the H4X (or a replacement) as your main camera body and sell it to everyone...
2. Turn all your backs (40, 50, 50c, 50ms, 200ms, 60) to "interchangeable camera mount" (like CFs where) and make them "self powered"....
3. Allow compatibility for camera powered older backs, so that they may work to the new "open" system...

In fact it is surprising they are still around after so many (and completely insane) continuous marketing mistakes their stupid (and suicidal) marketing department has done... P1 never won a race... it was Hassy alone that took their own eyes off... From thereafter, they're just ...blind!!!! 

I agree with your point 2. Just imagine this CFV50c back as a CF back, with Mamiya/Phase 645AF and Contax 645 i-adaptor plates. Who'd buy an IQ250 for their Mamiya or Contax, at $20k more? Hasselblad could eat a large portion of Phase One's lunch, if they did that one simple thing.

Ray

[eronald]

I agree with your point 2. Just imagine this CFV50c back as a CF back, with Mamiya/Phase 645AF and Contax 645 i-adaptor plates. Who'd buy an IQ250 for their Mamiya or Contax, at $20k more? Hasselblad could eat a large portion of Phase One's lunch, if they did that one simple thing.

Ray

I think Phase would probably just sue. They own Mamiya now and the legal issues concerning compatibility are a lawyers paradise.

I think Hassy should just make better cheaper H systems, they have a good product except it is too cheap for the dealers to sell, and too expensive for the clients to buy.Price the Hassy at $10K and it will outsell the Pentax is my guess.

Edmund

[JV]

I think Hassy should just make better cheaper H systems, they have a good product except it is too cheap for the dealers to sell, and too expensive for the clients to buy.Price the Hassy at $10K and it will outsell the Pentax is my guess.

Spot on according to me.

[ondebanks]

I think Phase would probably just sue. They own Mamiya now and the legal issues concerning compatibility are a lawyers paradise.

I doubt it, for two reasons: (1) Imacon (later Hasselblad) and Sinar already had extensive adaptor-based DB systems for every MF and LF interchangeable-back camera under the sun, and I don't recall lawyers getting involved; (2) What law gives Phase One and Leaf permission to continue to make their DBs in Hasselblad V and H mounts, but prevents Hasselblad from making theirs in a Mamiya mount?

Ray

[EricWHiss]

I've always been a fan of the universal back with adapter plates so I'd love to see the CFV-50 be also made in the CF style, but then again as long as I am wishing, I'd also see a multishot micro step version and another with a larger sensor.   

[JV]

The reality is that Hasselblad and Sinar tried all of those things in the past and couldn't make it work commercially. 

Phase One could and took the market.  Except for the CFV-50c back and one tethered Sinar back they have no competition anymore in the standalone digital back market.

Perhaps things are different now, not sure, perhaps the market would be more open towards a lower price alternative, who knows…?

[ondebanks]

The reality is that Hasselblad and Sinar tried all of those things in the past and couldn't make it work commercially. 

I put that down to two reasons:

- they undermined the attractiveness of their own concept, by pricing the camera adapters much too high (~ $1000 each, rather than ~$300 each). People with multiple camera platforms - the natural customers for this idea - were surely put off by the substantial costs of buying several adapters. Taking a loss on making the adapters could have been offset by raising the DB price; the user pays much the same overall, but psychologically is much happier about the value of the flexibility in the system.

- the DB systems themselves were perhaps half a step behind what Phase One were offering. This reason is really a combination of several things. The CCDs sensors might have been the same, but Imacon/Hasselblad and Sinar (and indeed Leaf) stayed with dated and inconvenient setups (Imagebanks, under-the-camera disk drives, iPaqs, tethered only DBs...dangly dongly things in general), while the contemporary Kodak DCS645 series and Phase One P-series were completely self-contained - which is where the market was going. Later, when Hasselblad and Sinar produced their own self-contained backs, Phase One evolved to the P+ backs with exceptional, unlimited long exposures...while the Hasselblads and Sinars persisted with stupid exposure hard limits like 30 or 32 seconds. Sure, their unique tech was in offering some multishot backs, but more shooters wanted Phase One's long exposures or Sensor+ high ISOs than wanted multishot. Hardware diversity was another factor - Phase One had 5 (and later 7) DBs of different generations, sensor sizes and prices to choose from; the others had only 2-3 DBs each for their adapter-based systems. Software also played a role, with Capture One DB perceived to be more stable and usable than Flexcolor, Sinar taking forever to support Windows PCs, and so on.

I would think that now most of those factors and differentials are gone, and an adapter-based system would be competitive again.

Ray

[EricWHiss]

In an ideal world a universal back with adapters would be open for development as well.  You have this back that does functions A-Z and with the adapters easy access to the pin outs…. 

And Ray, the early Ixpress backs did rely on the image bank, but the later CF style did not.  Digital backs themselves seem more tethered to their makers software than anything else.   I don't suggest this is a bad thing, but worth noting.  Some people liked one type of software more than another and that maybe made more difference than the backs themselves.

[Theodoros]

I think Phase would probably just sue. They own Mamiya now and the legal issues concerning compatibility are a lawyers paradise.

I think Hassy should just make better cheaper H systems, they have a good product except it is too cheap for the dealers to sell, and too expensive for the clients to buy.Price the Hassy at $10K and it will outsell the Pentax is my guess.

Edmund

They can't sue anybody Ed... they won the case against Hassy for exactly the opposite reasons... Sinar provides adapters compatible to Mamiya for all their backs...   

[Theodoros]

I've always been a fan of the universal back with adapter plates so I'd love to see the CFV-50 be also made in the CF style, but then again as long as I am wishing, I'd also see a multishot micro step version and another with a larger sensor.   

+1 for that... Maybe even a larger sensor with multishot/microstep capability... They said that the Cmos sensor is compatible with their MS technology when they first announced the H5-50...

[Theodoros]

I put that down to two reasons:

- they undermined the attractiveness of their own concept, by pricing the camera adapters much too high (~ $1000 each, rather than ~$300 each). People with multiple camera platforms - the natural customers for this idea - were surely put off by the substantial costs of buying several adapters. Taking a loss on making the adapters could have been offset by raising the DB price; the user pays much the same overall, but psychologically is much happier about the value of the flexibility in the system.

- the DB systems themselves were perhaps half a step behind what Phase One were offering. This reason is really a combination of several things. The CCDs sensors might have been the same, but Imacon/Hasselblad and Sinar (and indeed Leaf) stayed with dated and inconvenient setups (Imagebanks, under-the-camera disk drives, iPaqs, tethered only DBs...dangly dongly things in general), while the contemporary Kodak DCS645 series and Phase One P-series were completely self-contained - which is where the market was going. Later, when Hasselblad and Sinar produced their own self-contained backs, Phase One evolved to the P+ backs with exceptional, unlimited long exposures...while the Hasselblads and Sinars persisted with stupid exposure hard limits like 30 or 32 seconds. Sure, their unique tech was in offering some multishot backs, but more shooters wanted Phase One's long exposures or Sensor+ high ISOs than wanted multishot. Hardware diversity was another factor - Phase One had 5 (and later 7) DBs of different generations, sensor sizes and prices to choose from; the others had only 2-3 DBs each for their adapter-based systems. Software also played a role, with Capture One DB perceived to be more stable and usable than Flexcolor, Sinar taking forever to support Windows PCs, and so on.

I would think that now most of those factors and differentials are gone, and an adapter-based system would be competitive again.

Ray

I believe that the reasons you state are correct but rather secondary than prime.... IMO the prime reasons for Hasselblad's failure was that they "closed" the H system... for Sinar the main reason for failure was that they had so many different codes for different backs that would all fit the same camera... An additional reason for Sinar was their inability to provide a decent/stable software and their luck of compatibility with Windows... Of course Phase One "helped" a bit with their denial to support the HY6 "universal" system, but again Sinar never provided a larger image area than 48x36 for their backs...

Another crucial moment in Sinar's/Hasselblad V "carrier" was the announcement of P65+ and its size of image area... At the same time both the V system and HY6/6xxx never provided a wider lens than 40mm thus having (in combination with the "cropped" sensors they provided) their customers without "real" WA photography.

All the above look very simple really and it's a surprise they where never solved while they where major problems that lasted too long. 

[dag.bb]

Doug Peterson pointed out that my previous link to the public accounts of Victor Hasselblad AB did not reflect the overlying Hasselblad AB holding company. This is true, however to get the full picture, it seems one needs to look higher up in the company structure which Ventizz established when they took over in 2011. Nowadays the main holding company is called Hasselblad Holding s.a. r.l., and is registered in Luxembourg. The main operational units are Victor Hasselblad AB in Sweden (Development, manufacturing and service) and Hasselblad A/S in Denmark (Sales, marketing and administration, previously Imacon). The public accounts for the whole Hasseblad-group (with 16 subsidiaries around the world) are included with the public accounts of Hasseblad AB, and can be ordered from www.allabolag.se. I don't want to spam a thread related to the new back, however the new Hasseblad products are a major part of the financial picture. Some interesting tidbits from the annual report of Hasseblad Holding:

Sales for the group as a whole was 33,6 MEUR (20,58 MEUR in 2011). Operating loss 13,68 MEUR (operating profit 13,49 MEUR in 2011), net loss 18,62 MEUR (profit 13,88 MEUR in 2011). Some quotes from the report, with my emphasis and comments in brackets:

"On June 27 2011, HSE [Ventizz] acquired 100% of the share capital of Hasselblad AB, Sweden for TEUR 9,678. [this has never been reported before, as far as I can see - the press release stated "The parties have agreed not to disclose the purchase price."]
...
As the purchase price allocation show negative goodwill of TEUR 18,707 arising from the acquisition,  ... [this] indicates that the acquisition was a bargain purchase. The negative goodwill is mainly attributable to the fact that HSE [Ventizz] will have to make significant additional investments in the Hasselblad Group for development of the future products and activities that is expected to provide HSE a positive return on the Investment.
...
 In the budget period 2013-2014 revenue is expected to increase by approximately EUR 100 million. By the end of 2014 it is Managements expectation that more that 90% of the revenue will come from new products based on or new improved versions of existing Hasselblad products. Therefore, the results of the on-going product launches are an inherent risk in relation to the valuation of intangible assets including the brand.
...
The value of the brand (as well as all other assets} were also assessed in connection with the purchase price allocation in 2011 and the brand was at that time found to have a value of EUR 18.0 million (see F.3).
...
The brand refers to the name ''Hasselblad" and has been classified as having an indefinite useful life time. When determining the useful life time it has been considered that the brand name for decades has been well known among professionals and photo enthusiasts. In addition, maintaining and further expanding the utilisation of the Hasselblad brand is included in concrete plans for the future.
...
From its owner the Group received capital contributions in 2011 of TEUR 14,340 and loan of TEUR 2,500.

In order to fund the daily operations of the Group and the ongoing launch of new products the Group has received significant capital contributions from the Group's shareholder Tomese S.a r.l [Ventizz] as the Group has not been able to generate sufficient cash flows from operations to cover the cash requirements from daily operations and the investments in the ongoing launch of new products. In 2012 the Group received TEUR 28,703 in total and in 2013 the Company has received further TEUR 13,700 In total in capital injections. Management assess that the daily operations and the launch of new products requires further funding in order to ensure that the Group can continue its operations. Therefore, the Group's basis as a going concern is depending on contribution of liquidity from the shareholders or external lenders. Management has assessed that in order to cover the Group’s short-term liquidity needs contribution of further liquidity from the shareholders or external lenders is required. So far the shareholders have provided bridge financing to cover the Group’s short-term liquidity need. On July 12, 2013   a loan agreement was signed with an external lender regarding loans to the Group In the amount of TEUR 9,000.
...
Should the [loan] conditions precedent not be met it is Managements view that the Group will receive required liquidity either from the shareholders or external lenders when needed. Management's assessment is based on the shareholders support to the Group in the past, and indications from the shareholders. Furthermore it is Management's expectation that the result for 2013 will show significant improvements compared to 2012. These expectations are mainly due to the launch of new products and changes in the Group's cost structure, which will have positive impact on the operating income. [The CEO was fired in january of this year, which I guess speaks for itself] Therefore, the results of the ongoing product launches are an inherent risk relating to the group’s basis as a going concern in a medium and long-term perspective.

Based on the assessment carried out Management finds it appropriate to present the annual report on a basis of going concern.

F.34 Events after the reporting period

The partner Tomese S.a r.l [Ventizz] has in 2013 provided additional funding for the Group amounting to TEUR 13,700 and a TEUR 8,000 loan agreement with an external lender has been signed to finance the Group's growth relating to launch of new products.(see F.33)

[The audtiors (PWC) are not in agreement with management's analysis:]

Emphasis of matter

Without qualifying our opinion, we draw attention to Note F.33 which indicates that the Group incurred a net loss of TEUR 18,620 and negative cash flows from operations and investments of TEUR 23,077 during the year ended 31 December 2012 and to Note F.10 regarding impairment of intangible assets. The valuation of intangible assets and the going concern assumption are highly dependent upon Hasselblad Holding S.a r.l. Group's ability to successfully launch its new products. Therefore, the Manager’s assessment regarding the expected results of the on-going product launches and its assumptions regarding the growth rates of revenue is an inherent risk in relation with the valuation of the intangible assets amounting to EUR TEUR 23,873 as at 31 December 2012. These conditions, along with other matters as set forth in Note F.33, indicate the existence of a material uncertainty that may cast significant doubt about the Company’s ability to continue as a going concern.

... END

I hope they manage to survive somehow, and would like to report some more positive news, but the numbers look pretty bleak. Maybe I'm too cynical, but basically Ventizz paid 10 million euro for Hasselblad and went "all in" on the new cameras/back being a success. If they don't, maybe it's not too far fetched to see them sell of the brand for the reported 18 million euro its valued at. The report is dated 31. july 2013, so the next report for 2013 should be out any day now.

Dag

[Dustbak]

Hass could do really well if they weren't so full of arrogance... They consider all criticism as offence and the act in the opposite direction they are advised by the possible customers... My advises to them...

1. Focus on the H4X (or a replacement) as your main camera body and sell it to everyone...
2. Turn all your backs (40, 50, 50c, 50ms, 200ms, 60) to "interchangeable camera mount" (like CFs where) and make them "self powered"....
3. Allow compatibility for camera powered older backs, so that they may work to the new "open" system...

In fact it is surprising they are still around after so many (and completely insane) continuous marketing mistakes their stupid (and suicidal) marketing department has done... P1 never won a race... it was Hassy alone that took their own eyes off... From thereafter, they're just ...blind!!!! 

Sorry, I have used them all, CF (MS), H3, H4 and now H5 and everytime HB did improve. The H5 is a joy to use. HB chose another route and for me at least it is working, so it is for many others. Even though I was not amused at first too! Now, I am glad with the H5 which I can put on most other cameras too if needed. If I want to use the V, I need to buy a CFV which is decently priced. What other mount would I want to have? Why would I want to be able to put my back onto a Mamiya/DF?

The whole concept of this system as being solely a back is a station passed a very long time ago.

I am not paying any attention anymore to HB marketing but the tools are very nice to use!