Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: JV on July 21, 2014, 07:37:05 am
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http://www.hasselbladusa.com/news1/2014-07-21_cfv_50c.aspx
This is excellent news!
Hoping for the same price tag of €11,000 and a Hy6 mount one day...
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http://www.hasselbladusa.com/news1/2014-07-21_cfv_50c.aspx
This is excellent news!
Hoping for the same price tag of €11,000 and a Hy6 mount one day...
Liveview?
Edmund
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read the specs. ::)
also shutterless FE lenses can be used.
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Kudos to Hasselblad on their new MFDB.
But Firewire??? ::)
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But Firewire??? ::)
My thoughts exactly - Firewire......... really? ???
What looks like a truly excellent back comes with an interface that no computer manufacturer supports and probably have not for the last two (or more) years.
What the hell are HB thinking - V users use old cameras so they are bound to use old computers?
But.... I suppose the H5 still uses Firewire so it was to be expected. Is it really that expensive to licence USB3?
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no live view, only via phocus, at least from the specs it looks like it
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My thoughts exactly - Firewire......... really? ???
What looks like a truly excellent back comes with an interface that no computer manufacturer supports and probably have not for the last two (or more) years.
What the hell are HB thinking - V users use old cameras so they are bound to use old computers?
But.... I suppose the H5 still uses Firewire so it was to be expected. Is it really that expensive to licence USB3?
The expense is not from licensing USB3. The expense is from completely re-doing the chassis - which means beginning a new design for the next X number of generations that accommodates the communication port as well as the circuit board and well, frankly everything is new. You don't just create a new chassis to add one port. That's where the expense comes from. Phase One clearly had something different in mind (IQ technology) when the P65+ was announced, but it wasn't ready yet - that's why (my theory) the P65+ still had the P+ chassis, it wasn't just a matter of updating the LCD screen and the supposed relatively low cost of that.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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at least the sony batteries are cheap ;)
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I guess if USB3 is that big a deal you can get it in the IQ250 - but that will cost you (cough, cough) $20k more.
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Great news, well done Hasselblad and no pre launch leaks! :D
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That was hugely exciting just for a few moments.....
A new CFV back, must be square and large, they wouldn't bother otherwise.....
But 43.8 x 32.9 mm, on a V, seems like a wasted opportunity
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That was hugely exciting just for a few moments.....
A new CFV back, must be square and large, they wouldn't bother otherwise.....
But 43.8 x 32.9 mm, on a V, seems like a wasted opportunity
I wholeheartedly agree, but the same could be said about ANY MFD system, outside of the Leica S and/or 645d/z systems(and their compatible optics), which were designed around the smaller chip from the start.
-Dan
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I personally was excited because it showed that Hasselblad hadn't abandoned the V-Series completely as they appeared to have done. I as just happy something came out.
Now if we looked at the product, though, the lack of newer tech such as USB 3.0 or the fact that the battery is still external can be drawbacks. Some people would argue that the lack of video is a drawback too. The new CMOS sensor and larger LCD is definitely something to get excited about but for $15,000 US is it enough to get people excited enough to buy? I'm not in marketing or pretend to know anything about Hasselblad's company internals, but I would think, as a consumer, that a $9000 product would cause some major demand for the product while still competing with Pentax and its 645z offering. And as we've all seen Hasselblad isn't usually, if ever, on sale, so it's MSRP all the time, everyday.
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I personally was excited because it showed that Hasselblad hadn't abandoned the V-Series completely as they appeared to have done. I as just happy something came out.
Now if we looked at the product, though, the lack of newer tech such as USB 3.0 or the fact that the battery is still external can be drawbacks. Some people would argue that the lack of video is a drawback too. The new CMOS sensor and larger LCD is definitely something to get excited about but for $15,000 US is it enough to get people excited enough to buy? I'm not in marketing or pretend to know anything about Hasselblad's company internals, but I would think, as a consumer, that a $9000 product would cause some major demand for the product while still competing with Pentax and its 645z offering. And as we've all seen Hasselblad isn't usually, if ever, on sale, so it's MSRP all the time, everyday.
The problem here is that you can get Pentax and adaptor for V lenses and have access to proper live view, USB3 and also Pentax lenses. At first I was excited too, but what's the point? You still can't rotate the back (like I can with my good old Aptus) and apart from not having one cable going from back to lens I don't see any other advantage. Sure, you have leaf shutter in the lens and flash sync 1/500s
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That was hugely exciting just for a few moments.....
A new CFV back, must be square and large, they wouldn't bother otherwise.....
But 43.8 x 32.9 mm, on a V, seems like a wasted opportunity
But... who needs WA photography (that's a joke) anyway....?
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My thoughts exactly - Firewire......... really? ???
This is a non issue. I shoot FW via a thunderbolt adaptor all day and nearly every day with zero connection issues.
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This is a non issue. I shoot FW via a thunderbolt adaptor all day and nearly every day with zero connection issues.
Agreed, FW adapters work fine but it would be nice to not have to bother don't you think?
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I guessing Hasselblad determined that if you're shooting an old camera like the V, you're probably using an old Mac with Firewire ;).
But Firewire??? ::)
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That was hugely exciting just for a few moments.....
A new CFV back, must be square and large, they wouldn't bother otherwise.....
But 43.8 x 32.9 mm, on a V, seems like a wasted opportunity
For something to be called a wasted opportunity, there must be an alternative that was not taken up.
What's your alternative to this sensor?
The number of CMOS Bayer sensors larger than 35mm format on the market is exactly...one. This one.
If Hasselblad had not used the one and only large(-ish) colour CMOS sensor to make a high performance V-series back, now that would have been a wasted opportunity!
Ray
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If Hasselblad had not used the one and only large(-ish) colour CMOS sensor to make a high performance V-series back, now that would have been a wasted opportunity!
+1
The problem here is that you can get Pentax and adaptor for V lenses and have access to proper live view, USB3 and also Pentax lenses. At first I was excited too, but what's the point? You still can't rotate the back (like I can with my good old Aptus) and apart from not having one cable going from back to lens I don't see any other advantage. Sure, you have leaf shutter in the lens and flash sync 1/500s
If you want to keep on shooting Hasselblad V (and lenses) your only other CMOS option is the Phase One IQ250 digital back and the price difference is $20K.
For $20K I am sure some people will be able to live without live view and USB3…
The rotating sensor is unfortunately a thing of the past. The recent Leaf backs don't have it either, the Phase One backs never had it.
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The rotating sensor is unfortunately a thing of the past. The recent Leaf backs don't have it either, the Phase One backs never had it.
For clarity for readers who have not used a Phase or Leaf on a V body...
Rotating sensor was a nice feature of legacy Leaf backs. You could rotate from shooting horizontals to shooting verticals by turning a wheel on the back. The back remained on the entire time.
All other V-mount Phase and Leaf backs however still have the option of rotating the back itself (remove/rotate/replace), to allow a vertical or horizontal capture. This requires another 2-3 seconds and does introduce some possibility of a piece or two of dust. It is, however, IMO, a pretty simple operation.
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I wonder if this opens the door to more CF backs? Hasselblad had said they wouldn't make any more, but wow that would be cool to have a universal back that would fit all the different adapter plates they made for the CF backs.
I'm still a fan of the universal back and adapter plates for each camera approach.
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Hi,
Yes it is exciting news, but I feel the cropped sensor makes little sense. Hopefully, it can be rotated like the P45+ back I have.
With 1.1X crop factor I would be a potential buyer especially if combined with live view. Now, I would say it is like bottle that is half empty and half full. Good that Hasselblad still targets V-system users with new products.
Best regards
Erik
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/news1/2014-07-21_cfv_50c.aspx
This is excellent news!
Hoping for the same price tag of €11,000 and a Hy6 mount one day...
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For something to be called a wasted opportunity, there must be an alternative that was not taken up.
What's your alternative to this sensor?
The number of CMOS Bayer sensors larger than 35mm format on the market is exactly...one. This one.
If Hasselblad had not used the one and only large(-ish) colour CMOS sensor to make a high performance V-series back, now that would have been a wasted opportunity!
Ray
That's one way of looking at it of course.
I believe it's a wasted opportunity in that it's a waste of Hasselblads time and resources (in my opinion!).
Hasselblad have just launched a new back with a smaller sensor than what they had in their previous cfv back for a camera platform which they have now discontinued. I don't really see that as progress.
So my alternative is to do something else entirely....
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Hi,
Agree on that, but…
The sync cable needs to moved. The present version of the X-sync cable needs to be doctored if used in vertical orientation with the PM5 viewfinder. The good news is it can be doctored.
The back rotation is a nice feature as the V-series is built for horisontal operation.
Best regards
Erik
For clarity for readers who have not used a Phase or Leaf on a V body...
Rotating sensor was a nice feature of legacy Leaf backs. You could rotate from shooting horizontals to shooting verticals by turning a wheel on the back. The back remained on the entire time.
All other V-mount Phase and Leaf backs however still have the option of rotating the back itself (remove/rotate/replace), to allow a vertical or horizontal capture. This requires another 2-3 seconds and does introduce some possibility of a piece or two of dust. It is, however, IMO, a pretty simple operation.
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Really great news, showing that V-mount is not fully dead. That it's 44x33 is of course because that's the only sensor around, and lack of live view is because the Hasselblad back platform is not ready performance-wise for that yet. If there will be a larger CMOS sensor it will come too, and at some point Hasselblad will upgrade their back platform (if they just survive as a company). It seems like a new start for MF.
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Hi Anders,
You have any info on the survival issue?
Best regards
Erik
(if they just survive as a company). It seems like a new start for MF.
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Hi Anders,
You have any info on the survival issue?
Best regards
Erik
No I don’t have any connections with that kind of information. Usually only a small group of owners, management and economic administration people know the true status. A company in financial trouble don't want employees, customers or anyone else to know, as it may cause "abandon ship" and fail the company in a tough situation that it otherwise can survive.
I'm just guessing like everyone else that they do have a tough time, based on product strategy we have seen.
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I think there's a good chance we will see live view enabled on this back in the near future. :)
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Nick, that news – although I can not afford to buy this back at this moment – almost brings tears to my eyes. If I wasn't sitting in a cafe using my laptop, I'd be a blubbering mess. In other words, the total opposite of the cliche image of a Kiwi male.
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Surprised we have had no pricing comment.
In the UK the back is £9500 against the 50c Camera complete at £18,700. So the camera body is £9,000 - don't think so ;D
Note: these prices are Ex our sales tax VAT @20%
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Yes, the CFV is vastly cheaper. Granted it's back only, but even so. The H5d-50c and Phase IQ250 are a ton more no matter how you slice the cake. For someone like me who's only interested in using the back on a tech cam - providing it plays well with the 32HR and live view eventuates - it's a no brainer!
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Surprised we have had no pricing comment.
In the UK the back is £9500 against the 50c Camera complete at £18,700. So the camera body is £9,000 - don't think so ;D
Note: these prices are Ex our sales tax VAT @20%
I was thinking the exact same thing last night while browsing ebay for used 503CW's.
I know the H camera and lenses are really nice and have been considering getting an H4/5D-50 but this new back looks (apart from firewire 800) to be a winner. Its about time the big MFD players started making their latest and greatest kit more accessible to more people.
Well done Hasselblad for being the first yet again!
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I didn't see the price at first. I'm not surprised that it's substantially cheaper though, and it's surely the right move. The CFV product will likely not sell much at all to pro photographers, but mostly to (nostalgic?) amateurs and for that market I think a lower price is the right thing. For middle class people there's a huge difference between £9500 and £19000, it can be the difference between reachable and unreachable.
Here in Sweden the V system is 99.5% dead professionally, which I say based on contact with the major Hasselblad dealer, it's H system all in. Just checked, they've now removed the CFV backs from their web even. This strengthens my assumption that the CFV aims primarily for the amateur market. As a side effect it opens up for a lower cost tech cam back for longer lens photography. Don't forget that this is the Sony CMOS, it still sucks for tech wides.
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Another thing I missed until now is that the CCD version CFV-50 (49x37mm) has been discontinued. This is interesting, as the H5D-50 (same sensor) still is in the line. It shall be interesting to see what happens in the second hand market. CFV backs have had good value thanks to the V-system look/nostalgia.
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Hi Anders,
I know you've done a lot of analysing of RAW files from the IQ250 and have come to the conclusion that this sensor isn't great, or "sucks" as you put it, with tech wides. What kinds of test files have you seen that have led you to feel very confident of that conclusion? I'm curious, because at this price and with (potentially) live view, it's a great proposition IF it works well with the Rodenstock 32HR when employing movements. Have you seen samples with clear blue skies, etc?
Thanks!
TJV
I didn't see the price at first. I'm not surprised that it's substantially cheaper though, and it's surely the right move. The CFV product will likely not sell much at all to pro photographers, but mostly to (nostalgic?) amateurs and for that market I think a lower price is the right thing. For middle class people there's a huge difference between £9500 and £19000, it can be the difference between reachable and unreachable.
Here in Sweden the V system is 99.5% dead professionally, which I say based on contact with the major Hasselblad dealer, it's H system all in. Just checked, they've now removed the CFV backs from their web even. This strengthens my assumption that the CFV aims primarily for the amateur market. As a side effect it opens up for a lower cost tech cam back for longer lens photography. Don't forget that this is the Sony CMOS, it still sucks for tech wides.
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Hi Anders,
I know you've done a lot of analysing of RAW files from the IQ250 and have come to the conclusion that this sensor isn't great, or "sucks" as you put it, with tech wides. What kinds of test files have you seen that have led you to feel very confident of that conclusion? I'm curious, because at this price and with (potentially) live view, it's a great proposition IF it works well with the Rodenstock 32HR when employing movements. Have you seen samples with clear blue skies, etc?
It has been a few months since I dived deep into it, so I have to trust my memory a bit. The issue is crosstalk, which in mild doses lead to desaturation and reduced color separation and accuracy, and in heavy doses to demosaicing artifacts. As it has a gradual onset (not linear though! Varies vertically vs horizontally and also depending on shift due to microlens offset, sensor is designed to be in center) some people will accept more degradation than others, and it will also be subject dependent. A scene with muted colors is less affected than a scene with bright colors etc. Overcast sky will probably work fine as the color will be similar to the LCC shot. With color deviating strongly from the LCC the residual crosstalk error will be more noticable. A plain blue sky will probably not be too bad either as it's generally low in saturation.
In short, crosstalk lead to various effects which is not really predictable. One scene may come out fine, another may be plagued with issues. I don't think it's a good idea to put any high end system into large levels of crosstalk.
The 32 HR will work fine without shift, but you can't shift much at all if you want to be free of crosstalk artifacts. Even the 40 HR has issues, possibly even more as I think it's a less retrofocus lens than the 32HR. If you shift and stitch to compensate for the smaller sensor size you will definitely have color issues, it you care will be personal. The SK28 has pretty gross crosstalk when shifted on a regular IQ160 but still some use it.
Apart from Doug's public files I've got some anonymous contributions (I work with a crosstalk cancellation algorithm and have had some success so far, but still far from production use). I have from the 32HR and 40HR and SK60 but no longer if I remember correctly (got some more files recently which I have not had time to look at yet), so I don't know where the breakpoint is where you can use without restrictions. As longer lenses tend to be less retrofocus you may need to step up to like 70mm or so before you are without crosstalk issues for shifted positions.
It should be said that I'm more conservative and concerned about color stability than most others, so I'm sure some will be happy despite color issues. It does seem like most MF tech cam shooters don't mind some color issues as long as it's good in the center of the lens. Sharpness and resolution is for many priority 1, 2 and 3 and color is 4, the reason is probably because it's harder to evaluate.
To be clear: this is only a tech cam issue, the V-system lenses will work very well with this back of course.
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I think quite a few people would still be prepared to shoot an old Hassy with a square fullframe sensor in spite of the mediocre old Zeiss lenses and optical finder.
warning - silly season until september - warning
Edmund
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Hi,
Yes, of course! The question is if they are going to pay for it?!
Best regards
Erik
I think quite a few people would still be prepared to shoot an old Hassy with a square fullframe sensor in spite of the mediocre old Zeiss lenses and optical finder.
warning - silly season until september - warning
Edmund
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Yes, of course! The question is if they are going to pay for it?!
If you are talking inflated Phase One prices no, if you are talking Pentax prices yes.
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Hi,
Yes, of course! The question is if they are going to pay for it?!
Best regards
Erik
But of course - we will soon have flexible 8x10 sensors made on LCD lines :)
By the time Doug and Steve's kids have finished Harvard Law ..
BTW, a Pentax 645D costs 5K in Europe now, new - maybe Pentax and Hassy should get together ...Hassy seems to have all the leaf shutter lenses which Pentax lacks :)
Edmund
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Thanks, Anders.
Colour accuracy is very important too, so I best do my own tests.
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Another thing I missed until now is that the CCD version CFV-50 (49x37mm) has been discontinued. This is interesting, as the H5D-50 (same sensor) still is in the line. It shall be interesting to see what happens in the second hand market. CFV backs have had good value thanks to the V-system look/nostalgia.
It seems Hassy pays more intention on the fashion/aesthetics than to address at photographer's way of thinking... The Lunar project is a proof...
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Strange thing to say considering this is something V owners have asked for and many thought the chances of an updated cfv back was next to none. Plus the H5D series of cameras is very much photographer orientated, made to use and not look at...
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Whilst I would not attempt to defend the Lunar etc, much as I would not defend the Leica "specials" or the Nikon colour range in compacts, other than they may make sense economically Hasselblad has innovated with True Focus and the H series has evolved progressively since its introduction. Don't forget that although digital was on the horizon the H was designed in an analog era well over ten years ago and in its functions and ability to customise and retain profiles was ahead of its time.
Not being a fan boy here, that camera has issues, but to support a camera platform,V, no longer made from which only ongoing repair and salvage can provide an income must be applauded surely? What the CFVc back introduction has to do with "fashion and aesthetics" other than the back being an aesthetic match to the legacy body leaves me baffled.
It is a fact that for some people whatever a particular manufacturer dose it will never be "right" and the need to share that is apparently overwhelming.
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Strange thing to say considering this is something V owners have asked for and many thought the chances of an updated cfv back was next to none. Plus the H5D series of cameras is very much photographer orientated, made to use and not look at...
My opinion is that Hassy of the last decade is anything but "photography oriented"... they stopped making the CFs and replaced them with the CFVs for no reason (other than blocking other camera owners to have a back of their own), they stopped making MS backs that will work on existing systems, they closed the system so that one can't upgrade his back, they even made an open body (the h4x) that can't be equipped with a back of their own... Then, there is the Lunar "project"... and now, they totally blew it... they could have made this one a CF... but no! H4x, Contax or other camera owners can look at the raised middle finger... The back has to "look" right for the V system and for that only... As if the back was a CF (adaptable to many cameras) the V owners would care much for the (slight) difference on aesthetics... After all, they never cared for V owners to have a real WA solution... did they?
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My opinion is that Hassy of the last decade is anything but "photography oriented"... they stopped making the CFs and replaced them with the CFVs for no reason (other than blocking other camera owners to have a back of their own), they stopped making MS backs that will work on existing systems, they closed the system so that one can't upgrade his back, they even made an open body (the h4x) that can't be equipped with a back of their own... Then, there is the Lunar "project"... and now, they totally blew it... they could have made this one a CF... but no! H4x, Contax or other camera owners can look at the raised middle finger... The back has to "look" right for the V system and for that only... As if the back was a CF (adaptable to many cameras) the V owners would care much for the (slight) difference on aesthetics... After all, they never cared for V owners to have a real WA solution... did they?
There is something to what you say. A lot of exclusionary decisions, made for no good reason - the fact that the H4X does not take their own backs is ... strange. On the other hand Hassy's point of view seems to be that the mirror box is free when you buy a back box :)
Edmund
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My opinion is that Hassy of the last decade is anything but "photography oriented"... they stopped making the CFs and replaced them with the CFVs for no reason (other than blocking other camera owners to have a back of their own), they stopped making MS backs that will work on existing systems, they closed the system so that one can't upgrade his back, they even made an open body (the h4x) that can't be equipped with a back of their own... Then, there is the Lunar "project"... and now, they totally blew it... they could have made this one a CF... but no! H4x, Contax or other camera owners can look at the raised middle finger... The back has to "look" right for the V system and for that only... As if the back was a CF (adaptable to many cameras) the V owners would care much for the (slight) difference on aesthetics... After all, they never cared for V owners to have a real WA solution... did they?
Hasselblad produced a system with the H series that offers amazing integration between lens, body and back that includes accuracy of focus, lens profiles and multi shot capability that to name but a few. To this day, IMO it still runs rings around ALL the competition and people still feel the need to moan about them closing their system.
Hasselblad never closed their system as they still allow backs in the right fitting from other manufacturers to use the H system. Upgrading is also no different that Phase as the cost between an H camera and IQ back are near identical. It's just that with the Hasselblad you get a H camera for free rather than £4-6K extra for a terribly overpriced relic.
Producing a new back with all the latest in chip technology for a camera system they no longer produce is a bold move they should be applauded for rather than criticised for its aesthetics.
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Development cost for this back should be really minimal. It's internals from H5D-50c and externals from CFV-50. They won't need to sell many to go around, so it's very low risk for them. A "why not?" type of product.
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Why do you criticize Phase for delivering a vintage photographic experience? The commercial success of Phase clearly indicates that people do not want a modern camera with AF that actually works, and that gadgets such as a bright interchangeable viewfinder are considered unnecessary by the majority of users or at the very least the dealers who serve them. The customer is king, anyone who disagrees with his wishes is redundant.
Edmund
Hasselblad produced a system with the H series that offers amazing integration between lens, body and back that includes accuracy of focus, lens profiles and multi shot capability that to name but a few. To this day, IMO it still runs rings around ALL the competition and people still feel the need to moan about them closing their system.
Hasselblad never closed their system as they still allow backs in the right fitting from other manufacturers to use the H system. Upgrading is also no different that Phase as the cost between an H camera and IQ back are near identical. It's just that with the Hasselblad you get a H camera for free rather than £4-6K extra for a terribly overpriced relic.
Producing a new back with all the latest in chip technology for a camera system they no longer produce is a bold move they should be applauded for rather than criticised for its aesthetics.
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Why do you criticize Phase for delivering a vintage photographic experience? The commercial success of Phase clearly indicates that people do not want a modern camera that actually works.
Edmund
:-))
Yes it's strange that it seems more successful to have a better back gui and worse camera body (phase) than the other way around (Hasselblad). Hasselblad's H bodies leaves more to be desired in terms of reliability though as far as I understand, but that's compared to dslrs not Phase.
It would be interesting to know how important tech cam sales are, because there phase backs with their better gui have a great advantage.
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:-))
Yes it's strange that it seems more successful to have a better back gui and worse camera body (phase) than the other way around (Hasselblad). Hasselblad's H bodies leaves more to be desired in terms of reliability though as far as I understand, but that's compared to dslrs not Phase.
It would be interesting to know how important tech cam sales are, because there phase backs with their better gui have a great advantage.
I think Phase have a different rigid "do-nothing" solid-block body for the high-margin institutional sales now (museums, aviation). If you don't need AF and don't need a finder, and indeed don't really need a camera, then yes the Phase system ergonomics and software integration are superior.
Pentax is going to deliver the much needed kick in the ass to the whole system; I think even institutions are going to wonder why the should pay 3x Pentax price for a Phase system.
Hassy are caught somewhere in the middle - just shows that having a decent product is not a key to economic wellbeing. BTW H5D40 is now 10K in Europe, and that is almost reasonable at only 2x the price of the Pentax 645D with the same sensor :(
Edmund
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BTW H5D40 is now 10K in Europe, and that is almost reasonable at only 2x the price of the Pentax 645D with the same sensor :(
The H5d-40 is $13K now in the US. Pretty good deal as far as I am concerned. The promotion is valid till September 30th, 2014.
By that time we should also know what Hasselblad and competion have lined up for Photokina.
Hasselblad produced a system with the H series that offers amazing integration between lens, body and back that includes accuracy of focus, lens profiles and multi shot capability that to name but a few. To this day, IMO it still runs rings around ALL the competition and people still feel the need to moan about them closing their system.
+1.
I think Phase have a different rigid "do-nothing" solid-block body for the high-margin institutional sales now (museums, aviation). If you don't need AF and don't need a finder, and indeed don't really need a camera, then yes the Phase system ergonomics and software integration are superior.
I was reading this review of the Fuji X-T1 yesterday. The author, Zack Arias, is a professional photographer who sold his DSLRs in favor of Fuji but also shoots Phase One. His view on the Phase One body:
The only reason I love my Phase is because of the image quality it produces. Otherwise, the Phase One camera body is a piece of crap and I hate it. It’s an old Mamiya 645 body with a few tweaks and a new badge slapped on the front. It’s a crap camera really. Oh how I hope and wish and pray and desire for the day Fuji gets back in the medium format game. I have begged and pleaded with them to make an X series medium format game changer. PLEASE!!!
http://dedpxl.com/fuji-x-t1-review-yep-its-a-fuji/
Pentax is going to deliver the much needed kick in the ass to the whole system; I think even institutions are going to wonder why the should pay 3x Pentax price for a Phase system.
Perhaps but not entirely convinced. Sony and Fuji much more so than Pentax have the ability to do so IMO. Not sure whether they would be interested in stepping in though.
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Zack likes his Fuji. I like my used Canon 1Ds3 which I bought specifically to use the 85/1.2 and 200/1.8. The camera is usable, the finder experience is good. As for the Phase, I hated every minute of using it, and there is no reason to use a camera you hate even if you love the files. The camera experience shows through in the images.
Edmund
The H5d-40 is $13K now in the US. Pretty good deal as far as I am concerned. The promotion is valid till September 30th, 2014.
By that time we should also know what Hasselblad and competion have lined up for Photokina.
+1.
I was reading this review of the Fuji X-T1 yesterday. The author, Zack Arias, is a professional photographer who sold his DSLRs in favor of Fuji but also shoots Phase One. His view on the Phase One body:
The only reason I love my Phase is because of the image quality it produces. Otherwise, the Phase One camera body is a piece of crap and I hate it. It’s an old Mamiya 645 body with a few tweaks and a new badge slapped on the front. It’s a crap camera really. Oh how I hope and wish and pray and desire for the day Fuji gets back in the medium format game. I have begged and pleaded with them to make an X series medium format game changer. PLEASE!!!
http://dedpxl.com/fuji-x-t1-review-yep-its-a-fuji/
Perhaps but not entirely convinced. Sony and Fuji much more so than Pentax have the ability to do so IMO. Not sure whether they would be interested in stepping in though.
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I think Phase have a different rigid "do-nothing" solid-block body for the high-margin institutional sales now (museums, aviation). If you don't need AF and don't need a finder, and indeed don't really need a camera, then yes the Phase system ergonomics and software integration are superior.
Pentax is going to deliver the much needed kick in the ass to the whole system; I think even institutions are going to wonder why the should pay 3x Pentax price for a Phase system.
Hassy are caught somewhere in the middle - just shows that having a decent product is not a key to economic wellbeing. BTW H5D40 is now 10K in Europe, and that is almost reasonable at only 2x the price of the Pentax 645D with the same sensor :(
Edmund
The point is... that if Hass didn't make the stupid decision to close the system, if Imacon (under Hassy name) where still around... and if P1 wouldn't refuse to support the HY6 system... (in order to kill it)... then creative photography (view cameras, MS, tech cameras ..etc) would have advanced... ...but the "boys" we are talking about... they prefer bankruptcy! (In other words its a policy for some in those companies (that don't give a dime for photographers) ...to make a lot of money (through bankruptcy)!!!
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Hi,
I agree with every word, well almost every word…
On the other hand, it may be that we just had Hasselblad cameras and Phase backs.
Best regards
Erik
The point is... that if Hass didn't make the stupid decision to close the system, if Imacon (under Hassy name) where still around... and if P1 wouldn't refuse to support the HY6 system... (in order to kill it)... then creative photography (view cameras, MS, tech cameras ..etc) would have advanced... ...but the "boys" we are talking about... they prefer bankruptcy! (In other words its a policy for some in those companies (that don't give a dime for photographers) ...to make a lot of money (through bankruptcy)!!!
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There is something to what you say. A lot of exclusionary decisions, made for no good reason - the fact that the H4X does not take their own backs is ... strange. On the other hand Hassy's point of view seems to be that the mirror box is free when you buy a back box :)
Edmund
I don't see the exclusionary as a problem. What I hate is the inconsistency and bad communication patterns. Phase one has now years working on the new camera, is evident that they were having a BIG free ride at the expense of Hasselblad. Of course, when Hasselblad stop letting them have it they mobilized the blogosphere that they own (not implying money) against Hasselblad.
Something similar to what Adobe did when Aperture was introduced. It was a revolutionary (then) software, but Adobe was working on a competitor. The bloggers underscore all the weak points of Aperture, but they never tell us that they were working with Adobe in the new product or in a thousand ways to monetize the the "Light room revolution".
Funny part is they underscore the proprietary nature of the library, that you will lose the images (really it was just right click and open package, the software will continue working). The same guys today justify or ignore Adobe creative suit subscription model. They don't care about people access to the pictures they own.
The same with Hassy: True focus is a gimmick (its the only thing we have), and so many other things. If Hasselblad dies after Photokina, they will have themselves to blame, mostly. In the other hand we have to accept that they are facing an unbalanced fight were nothing good they do get underscored but any error get amplified to Earth size proportions.
Best regards,
J. Duncan
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The reason Phase are not yet selling a better camera is that they understand dealer margins are more important than R&D funding. They are better at business.
Phase don't owe you anything. If you don't like their product, you can drop it. I sold my Phamiya, and don't regret it.
Hasselblad closed their system some years ago, and that was a business decision too, made a lot of their customers angry and caused some to leave, including Michael, I believe.
Edmund
I don't see the exclusionary as a problem. What I hate is the inconsistency and bad communication patterns. Phase one has now years working on the new camera, is evident that they were having a BIG free ride at the expense of Hasselblad. Of course, when Hasselblad stop letting them have it they mobilized the blogosphere that they own (not implying money) against Hasselblad.
Something similar to what Adobe did when Aperture was introduced. It was a revolutionary (then) software, but Adobe was working on a competitor. The bloggers underscore all the weak points of Aperture, but they never tell us that they were working with Adobe in the new product or in a thousand ways to monetize the the "Light room revolution".
Funny part is they underscore the proprietary nature of the library, that you will lose the images (really it was just right click and open package, the software will continue working). The same guys today justify or ignore Adobe creative suit subscription model. They don't care about people access to the pictures they own.
The same with Hassy: True focus is a gimmick (its the only thing we have), and so many other things. If Hasselblad dies after Photokina, they will have themselves to blame, mostly. In the other hand we have to accept that they are facing an unbalanced fight were nothing good they do get underscored but any error get amplified to Earth size proportions.
Best regards,
J. Duncan
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Never the less, one has to admit that the pricing exposes a lot of P1's pricing policy... I wonder how long it'll be before that Credo 50 will appear into the market... and the price of it! ;) ...Obviously in Hasselblad they don't like their customers to have other maker backs on their cameras, will they avoid Leaf too?
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Never the less, one has to admit that the pricing exposes a lot of P1's pricing policy... I wonder how long it'll be before that Credo 50 will appear into the market... and the price of it! ;) ...Obviously in Hasselblad they don't like their customers to have other maker backs on their cameras, will they avoid Leaf too?
The high P1 list pricing allows them to
1) set a substantially lower wholesale price and reward the dealers for prescribing P1, and make sure that dealers who sell P1 provide good service. Which is a good thing for customer and dealer alike, provided the customer can afford the spare cash.
2) create an incentive for P1 rental as buying wholesale is cheap and renting out is indexed on list. This can be good for everybody because it creates a lively rental market, albeit an expensive one.
3) Make money for their owners. This can mean the company sticks around and makes better products, although they are sold to the select few.
However although high list prices with good dealer margins can seem to be good business, they do create a tempting entry point for cheap competition and then they kill you because you and your channel have become bloated. I don't think MF dealers are enjoying the D810 release, even though they will tell you that the D810 does not compete with MF.
BTW, in some markets in some countries (of course not in the honest US), high priced products sell well to institutions because of paid-back buyer commissions, and high priced rentals also play well because they are settled by the customer who wants "the best" and then generate paid back renter commissions.
Edmund
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The high P1 list pricing allows them to
1) set a substantially lower wholesale price and reward the dealers for prescribing P1, and make sure that dealers who sell P1 provide good service. Which is a good thing for customer and dealer alike, provided the customer can afford the spare cash.
2) create an incentive for P1 rental as buying wholesale is cheap and renting out is indexed on list. This can be good for everybody because it creates a lively rental market, albeit an expensive one.
3) Make money for their owners. This can mean the company sticks around and makes better products, although they are sold to the select few.
However although high list prices with good dealer margins can seem to be good business, they do create a tempting entry point for cheap competition and then they kill you because you and your channel have become bloated. I don't think MF dealers are enjoying the D810 release, even though they will tell you that the D810 does not compete with MF.
BTW, in some markets in some countries (of course not in the honest US), high priced products sell well to institutions because of paid-back buyer commissions, and high priced rentals also play well because they are settled by the customer who wants "the best" and then generate paid back renter commissions.
Edmund
That was exactly what Happen to IBM and HP when Dell enter the PC market. They had a contract and a dealership model. When the PCs become interchangeable and fiable (less need for support) the strengths of the dealership model become an effective barrier of entry for them to the direct sales model. So the same model that was a barrier of entry for Dell and the clone vendors to the corporate market become a barrier of entry for IBM, HP etc to enter the future.
In the other hand, about your answer to my comment: The idea of the dealership margins as an explanation to the delay of Phase new Camera is intriguing, but I believe is more a technical issue. From hints I have peeked from the "review" of the H5D I guess that:
1. Phase will have a new camera for Photokina.
2. It will have a different autofocus system.
Let see how it unfolds.
Best regards,
J. Duncan
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From hints I have peeked from the "review" of the H5D I guess that:
1. Phase will have a new camera for Photokina.
2. It will have a different autofocus system.
Let see how it unfolds.
This should normally also be a Leaf year, shouldn't it, with the Credo backs being 2 years old and Phase typically on a 2-years cycle.
Although perhaps with the IQ250 already released this year that might not make any sense anymore.
Photokina is always interesting. Hopefully Leica has an announcement as well...
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Maybe Sony will too? After all how long ago was the sensor in the nikon D800 released? ;)
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Someone should do an MF mirrorless - as a couple of posters have suggested. Both Fuji and Mamiya used to have mirrorless MF film cameras, including interchangeable lens models. Some of the Fujis (at relatively reasonable sizes and weights) even got as big as 6x9 cm negatives!What if Fuji pulled a Pentax, skipped right over a full-frame model and the successor to the X-Pro 1 was medium format? The X-T1 is a very nice top end to the APS-C series, and it is hard to imagine what a 16 MP APS-C successor to the X-Pro 1 could bring to the table that would justify the two years since the original?
What if it wasn't a 16 MP camera at all, but a 50 MP 33x44 mm camera (I'm assuming Fuji isn't going to go backwards to a CCD sensor, and the only MF CMOS is 33x44)? Of course it would need new lenses, but so would a FF successor to the X-Pro 1. I wonder what such a body would cost? I suspect it could be (disruptively) priced right in the realm of a D4s or a 1Dx, giving a real option in that range - the speed of the sports cameras or the image quality of a 50 MP "rangefinder". At present, there is a huge jump in the cost of image-quality focused cameras - from the $2000-$3200 range inhabited by the D810 and A7r up to the $10,000+ territory of medium format - anything in between actually offers reduced image quality at modest ISO (in return for extreme ISO capability and 10+ FPS). What if Fuji (or Sony?) jumped in at $6000 with a 50 MP camera based on the Sony CMOS sensor? It wouldn't have a removable back, but the flange distance would be short enough to attach the entire camera to a tech camera, and it would be reasonably enough priced that there wouldn't be a huge cost argument for back upgrades...
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What "review" are you referring to? The rumours have pointed to Phase having a new camera coming out since forever, I've lost track... Seriously...
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What "review" are you referring to? The rumours have pointed to Phase having a new camera coming out since forever, I've lost track... Seriously...
+1.
Edmund
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Why does everyone presume that if a new P1 camera will be introduced at Photokina, it will be an MF camera? ...with MFDB sales shrinking and being under more threat the more the time, it looks more sensible for a FF (mirrorless or DSLR) model to be among their plans... It should give a major boost to their prime source of income anyway... their Capture One software! ...remember that Sony "likes" relationships with more "specialised" makers (Nikon, Pentax, Zeiss... now P1, Hassy). ::)
Someone mentioned the possibility of Fuji using a ...Sony sensor before, the one thing that will never happen... "Fuji using other than theirs"... that is a joke right? :o
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Why does everyone presume that if a new P1 camera will be introduced at Photokina, it will be an MF camera? ...with MFDB sales shrinking and being under more threat the more the time, it looks more sensible for a FF (mirrorless or DSLR) model to be among their plans... It should give a major boost to their prime source of income anyway... their Capture One software! ...remember that Sony "likes" relationships with more "specialised" makers (Nikon, Pentax, Zeiss... now P1, Hassy). ::)
Someone mentioned the possibility of Fuji using a ...Sony sensor before, the one thing that will never happen... "Fuji using other than theirs"... that is a joke right? :o
Not that it matters to me but I didn't think it was very clear where Fuji currently gets its sensors from, some say Sony, others say Toshiba, or a combination of both…
Regarding the Phase One camera, a new body is a significant investment which IMO will not necessarily result in a significant increase in sales for Phase One, therefore it might not be at the top of the priority list...
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Not that it matters to me but I didn't think it was very clear where Fuji currently gets its sensors from, some say Sony, others say Toshiba, or a combination of both…
Regarding the Phase One camera, a new body is a significant investment which IMO will not necessarily result in a significant increase in sales for Phase One, therefore it might not be at the top of the priority list...
Fuji makes its own sensors... They always have and always will... Its like saying that Fuji would ever apply to Kodak or Agfa to build them ...film for their cameras! ;D
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Why does everyone presume that if a new P1 camera will be introduced at Photokina, it will be an MF camera? ...with MFDB sales shrinking and being under more threat the more the time, it looks more sensible for a FF (mirrorless or DSLR) model to be among their plans... It should give a major boost to their prime source of income anyway... their Capture One software! ...remember that Sony "likes" relationships with more "specialised" makers (Nikon, Pentax, Zeiss... now P1, Hassy). ::)
Someone mentioned the possibility of Fuji using a ...Sony sensor before, the one thing that will never happen... "Fuji using other than theirs"... that is a joke right? :o
Not that I'd hold you to it, but you'e quite incorrect about Capture One representing the majority of Phase One sales revenue.
As far as a 35mm camera is concerned, I think it would be prudent if Phase One focused on the medium format camera first before embarking on an entirely new camera system in an extremely competitive playing field.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Not that I'd hold you to it, but you'e quite incorrect about Capture One representing the majority of Phase One sales revenue.
As far as a 35mm camera is concerned, I think it would be prudent if Phase One focused on the medium format camera first before embarking on an entirely new camera system in an extremely competitive playing field.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
I don't say that they should challenge the "Big boys" in the FF market... There is room though for a specialised design that could serve their current customers... A highly sophisticated modular mirrorless with extras like a dedicated bellows and extensive movements and perhaps an electronically self adaptable to the lens in use OVF could provide a very interesting alternative for all architectural, still life studio and landscape photography...
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Fuji makes its own sensors... They always have and always will... Its like saying that Fuji would ever apply to Kodak or Agfa to build them ...film for their cameras! ;D
My understanding is that Fuji uses Sony sensors and only develop their own color filters/micro lenses/processing pipe.
Cheers,
Bernard
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My understanding is that Fuji uses Sony sensors and only develop their own color filters/micro lenses/processing pipe.
Cheers,
Bernard
I believe that it is common to call an "own sensor", a sensor that is unique to the maker and that the maker has exclusive rights of use... The Nikon 16mp FF sensor for instance is another example of such a sensor... none other than Nikon can use it unless if he is licensed by Nikon to do so... Fuji is the same... Now, what process or premisses the maker chooses to accomplice the production, it's his own and it is a relation of cost efficiency and product quality...
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Regarding the Phase One camera, a new body is a significant investment which IMO will not necessarily result in a significant increase in sales for Phase One, therefore it might not be at the top of the priority list...
JV,
I think they will upgrade their body again, they've done it before, to what degree is a different matter.
Phase remind me in many ways of Microsoft, with first class technological know how, superb business tactics and an unflinchingly realistic scheduling of priorities. Surely, the best business acumen translates into the best product for the customer?
Edmund
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I was wondering two (2) things...
1. Why every discussion in this site has to turn about P1 no matter the subject...
2. Why none answers on when Leaf (although many Phase/Leaf people are active members) will introduce their version of MFDB with the new sensor...
Lets face it... P1 is in trouble for three (additional) reasons which are 3xTHE PRICE... 1. D810... 2.PENTAX 645Z.... 3. Hass-V owners are OFF their list of customers...
Lets face it for good this time... Unless MF makers turn their designs to where MF (traditionally) excels... (Multishot, view/tech camera compatibility, simplicity, applying to the basics, modularity and modular compatibility... etc). THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR THEM... Ask me why I'll NEVER change my Imacon 528c (fully adapted on a Contax 645 & a Fuji DX680 system) for "modern" crap... I've got 100 reasons to explain...
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I was wondering two (2) things...
1. Why every discussion in this site has to turn about P1 no matter the subject...
2. Why none answers on when Leaf (although many Phase/Leaf people are active members) will introduce their version of MFDB with the new sensor...
Lets face it... P1 is in trouble for three (additional) reasons which are 3xTHE PRICE... 1. D810... 2.PENTAX 645Z.... 3. Hass-V owners are OFF their list of customers...
Theodoros,
1. I guess the Hasselblad users are poor, so they are off taking pictures with their obsolete cameras rather than dreaming about new gear.
2. Leaf? is that a brand or a company? I'm not really sure anymore.
We have no reason to think P1 are in trouble, you are starting a silly rumor here, and anyway price doesn't matter to their customer base, the shoddy D810 image quality does not compare to a medium format back, the Pentax does not really compare to the Phase kit because it does not contain a gravitronic image engine, and any Hasselblad V owner who thinks that a 50 year old camera design and a square image format may still be relevant today is probably living in a gated community in Florida.
Summer is the silly season :)
Edmund
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Theodoros,
1. I guess the Hasselblad users are poor, so they are off taking pictures with their obsolete cameras rather than dreaming about new gear.
2. Leaf? is that a brand or a company? I'm not really sure anymore.
We have no reason to think P1 are in trouble, you are starting a silly rumor here, and anyway price doesn't matter to their customer base, the shoddy D810 image quality does not compare to a medium format back, the Pentax does not really compare to the Phase kit because it does not contain a gravitronic image engine, and any Hasselblad V owner who thinks that a 50 year old camera design and a square image format may still be relevant today is probably living in a gated community in Florida.
Summer is the silly season :)
Edmund
I don't see the relevance of your reply to my post, but again I was typing an edit while you was quoting... My (final) post is clearly on MFD's (not only P1) ability to survive ...being off its (traditional) purpose!
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I don't see the relevance of your reply to my post, but again I was typing an edit while you was quoting... My (final) post is clearly on MFD's (not only P1) ability to survive ...being off its (traditional) purpose!
Theodoros,
I was just trying to be funny. As I pointed out, summer is the silly season. :)
We often get caught up answering a post while it is being edited.
But all your added remarks are pertinent. I just cannot be bothered editing my humoristic reply. By the way (hint) what I always loved most about MF was the look of the Zeiss lenses on my V, and the square format. Unfortunately neither of these features I liked seem to correspond to the wishes of many other MF users, at least in the eyes of the companies who make stuff.
Edmund
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Theodoros,
I was just trying to be funny. As I pointed out, summer is the silly season. :)
We often get caught up answering a post while it is being edited.
But all your added remarks are pertinent. I just cannot be bothered editing my humoristic reply. By the way (hint) what I always loved most about MF was the look of the Zeiss lenses on my V, and the square format. Unfortunately neither of these features I liked seem to correspond to the wishes of many other MF users, at least in the eyes of the companies who make stuff.
Edmund
In my view "summer" may mean less posts or less participation... but there is no explanation why it should mean less or meaningless communication... :P
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In my view "summer" may mean less posts or less participation... but there is no explanation why it should mean less or meaningless communication... :P
I blame the heat for my stupidity, and my camera for the bad pictures :P
Edmund
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As far as a 35mm camera is concerned, I think it would be prudent if Phase One focused on the medium format camera first before embarking on an entirely new camera system in an extremely competitive playing field.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
My bold above, and add: rapidly shrinking in volume, market.
DSLR and mirrorless down, a lot, compacts down, an awful lot. Overall a 25% drop in sales of cameras from year to year.
Nikon looking to spend up to $2billion in the medical products area in acquisitions, not investing in the camera and lens business.
A niche can be a comfortable place be.
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In my view "summer" may mean less posts or less participation... but there is no explanation why it should mean less or meaningless communication... :P
actually i chuckled reading eronald's post because i knew it was a bit of satire. as an owner of the hasselblad v system i get excited as i slowly focus my zeiss lenses and that moment of pop as the image comes into focus. as a once owner of the cfv-16 had hasselblad produced backs for the v system on the lines of phase one say cfv-25 and cfv-31 along with the cfv-39 and cfv-50 without discontinuing any of the backs i think with proper pricing they would have sold many to the owners of the v system. but now with my d800e and the coming in the not too distant future of nikon's 54mp camera to go along with my zeiss lenses for nikon, i see no reason to shoot mf digital. i do use the hasselblad but i have gone back to b&w film and printing the images in the wet darkroom. i now consider a silver gelatin print to be a part of alternative photography along with my platinum palladium printing. i know in today's world what i am doing is archaic, but i just returned from visiting my daughter in boston and had a chance to visit the m.i.t. museum and they had a section on early photography. there is a life in those images that do not show up in today's digital world. as camera sales worldwide continue to plummet (see canon's latest quarter and i am sure it will be the same for nikon) all camera manufacturers are going to have to think hard how to differentiate and be profitable. in the old days photographers had many different films to choose from to create their own style. maybe a sensor could be designed that the photographer could through the menu design his or her own film curve or be able to switch from color to black and white. maybe make the sensor through the menu to be sensitive to blue light only or just blue and green. as i am not an engineer maybe all that i listed is impossible. but i do believe that if camera manufacturers continue on the same path that they are on today, there will be many mergers to stay alive and less choices for the photographer.
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Poor Hasselblad … ;) a post about their new offering and it turns into a post about what Phase will be doing and how the market share of MF cameras must be dwindling… Hmmmm… well the way I see it, the ease of digital photography, the social media, and the cell phone camera together have really combined to build lots of interest in photography in general - much more than there was before. If the the sea rises, then so do all the boats - even film!
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Poor Hasselblad … ;) a post about their new offering and it turns into a post about what Phase will be doing and how the market share of MF cameras must be dwindling… Hmmmm… well the way I see it, the ease of digital photography, the social media, and the cell phone camera together have really combined to build lots of interest in photography in general - much more than there was before. If the the sea rises, then so do all the boats - even film!
Yes, lot's of interest indeed but it's mostly about content and style rather than quality but you are right, all the boats should rise (if they don't sink).
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At the risk of repetition, but with links this time, the digital camera boat is sinking not rising on any tides.
Even a launch sticks, the D810 is "in stock" everywhere when did that last happen for a pro-summer Nikon?
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/dw-201406_e.pdf
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html
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Even a launch sticks, the D810 is "in stock" everywhere when did that last happen for a pro-summer Nikon?
It was launched about a month too late to qualify as a pro-summer camera :)
Edmund
-- Summer is the silly season.
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^^^
;D ;D ;D
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Hmmmm… well the way I see it, the ease of digital photography, the social media, and the cell phone camera together have really combined to build lots of interest in photography in general - much more than there was before. If the the sea rises, then so do all the boats - even film!
Today. photography is probably the most popular it has ever been due to the ease of accessibility through decent quality mobile phone cameras. It's no wonder the market is shrinking if that spark of interest is instantly quashed when looking for a real camera and they see prices of £5K, £10K, £20K for a camera. The percentage of mobile phone photographers willing to pay those prices must by absolutely tiny.
This new Hasselblad back is a step in the right direction with the exact same chip as the IQ250 and 90% of its functionality (more if they get LV working) but at half the price. However, now we have Pentax, Nikon and Sony with even cheaper alternatives has this price adjustment been left too late? Not everyone sees the difference a MFD chip (well, cropped 645) brings.
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the problem with these ‘medium format’ sensors is that most of them are small so any difference when output is hardly noticeable and those extra 14m-pixels (36-50) will soon be gone when the ape-c pixel densities make it into full frame 35mm. and that ‘look’ people go on about is further eroded by the high resolving power and fast optics from the likes of zeiss, sigma and canon.
(http://darrelllarose.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/sensor-comparison.jpg)
i still think the back will certainly sell well to H/blad users as it means they can now free themselves from the tripod ;D but with no live-view it’s dead in the water for a lot of potential users.
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Hi,
Market is obviously shrinking, but it is well possible that Phase One is out of phase with the market. Why? Moving into new markets like arial photography and repro, for instance. It may be that technical cameras also help.
But, I guess that earning money is much harder now than just a couple of years ago. I have heard that print sales are significantly down compared to a couple of years ago.
Regarding Hasselblad, it is difficult to estimate their position, but it seems they try to have lower prices than Phase One. They also have an impressive product portfolio. Question, is there a market large enough to support four vendors, Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax and Leica? I didn't mention Leaf, as they are just a branch of the Phase One tree.
I would guess that two major drivers behind this are:
- Things are good enough - look at BC shooting 4/3 and Leica S2
- The supply side is getting larger, while buyers are holding to their money, because of the global economy
Best regards
Erik
At the risk of repetition, but with links this time, the digital camera boat is sinking not rising on any tides.
Even a launch sticks, the D810 is "in stock" everywhere when did that last happen for a pro-summer Nikon?
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/dw-201406_e.pdf
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html
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At the risk of repetition, but with links this time, the digital camera boat is sinking not rising on any tides.
Even a launch sticks, the D810 is "in stock" everywhere when did that last happen for a pro-summer Nikon?
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/dw-201406_e.pdf
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html
"Digital camera boat" is a bit broad - Some segments are down, not all.
Phase One sales are up year over year for 5 years in a row, with all signs pointing toward the same for year 6.
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"Digital camera boat" is a bit broad - Some segments are down, not all.
Phase One sales are up year over year for 5 years in a row, with all signs pointing toward the same for year 6.
This is great, it means money in the bank for you, and more cameras for the used market for the rest of us-
By the way, how is Hasselblad doing?
Edmund
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Phase One seems to be doing very well indeed, according to the numbers for 2013 which were released recently:
Revenues up 32% from approx 53 MUSD to 70 MUSD
Net result up 103% from approx 5.5 MUSD to 11 MUSD
(http://www.proff.dk/firma/phase-one-as/frederiksberg/fremstillingsvirksomhed/13477705-2/)
Hasselblad numbers are not available for 2013 yet, however while they were doing well i 2011, it seems the bottom dropped out in 2012:
Revenues down 31 % from approx 42 MUSD to 29 MUSD.
Net result down 187 % from approx 8 MUSD to -7 MUSD
(http://www.proff.se/foretag/victor-hasselblad-ab/göteborg/fotoutrustningar/13095623-1/)
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Poor Hasselblad … ;) a post about their new offering and it turns into a post about what Phase will be doing
That happened for the same reason it always does on fora - someone above was not able to just be happy for Hasselblad's good news; they had to throw in a cut at Phase while they were at it. And then the Phase crew naturally jumped in to defend/clarify. But it's hardly surprising that threads get derailed - it's a small sector and you can't really discuss a big development for one group without considering the implications for the other(s).
Ray
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...all the boats should rise (if they don't sink).
Or get swallowed by a whale…. Some of these companies, including the one I represent, are quite small by comparison to Nikon or Canon. btw - How big is Hasselblad these days? I had heard a rumor they might be acquired, but I think nothing came of it. That does seem to be the path most VC or investment firms take - a flip or an exit via a public stock offering rather than any long term partnership. I've been watching HB since Ventizz got involved. The new CFV50c is one of the only positive things I've seen so far.
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There's certainly a niche in V format backs with liveview. What the realistic price point is, I don't know. I'd say $4K.
Edmund
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There's certainly a niche in V format backs with liveview. What the realistic price point is, I don't know. I'd say $4K.
Edmund
For me it would make sense if Hasselblad got a cheap back out there (max $5K) in addition to the CFV-50c allowing (and encouraging) the users to upgrade over time.
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For me it would make sense if Hasselblad got a cheap back out there (max $5K) in addition to the CFV-50c allowing (and encouraging) the users to upgrade over time.
The CFV50c *is* the Euro 5K back they should be selling, except they cannot afford to sell it at that price because of their historical lineup pricing. I have a feeling that half the members of this forum would go and get one at that price.
Edmund
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The CFV50c *is* the Euro 5K back they should be selling, except they cannot afford to sell it at that price because of their historical lineup pricing. I have a feeling that half the members of this forum would go and get one at that price.
Edmund
Given that they don't manufacture the bodies (and the lenses) anymore there is probably very little incentive to do so… only a bit of additional money for servicing the bodies already out there…
Prices for used V systems would go through the roof though… I guess I might hold on to mine a little bit longer… :)
I actually wonder if prices for V systems are already rising on eBay?
Joris.
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Given that they don't manufacture the bodies (and the lenses) anymore there is probably very little incentive to do so… only a bit of additional money for servicing the bodies already out there…
Prices for used V systems would go through the roof though… I guess I might hold on to mine a little bit longer… :)
I actually wonder if prices for V systems are already rising on eBay?
Joris.
There are more mint V systems out there than the numbers of any DB that will be made in the near future.
Edmund
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The CFV50c *is* the Euro 5K back they should be selling, except they cannot afford to sell it at that price because of their historical lineup pricing. I have a feeling that half the members of this forum would go and get one at that price.
Edmund
Ahh, that magical number (price) that strikes the perfect balance between volume of sales and profit margin...wish I knew what it was (in a lot of things not just the Hassy back :) ) $5k might be too low though. Undoubtedly they would sell a bunch of them but would it be worth it for them? Hard to know without knowing the actual cost of the back.
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For some reason the price in Japan for this back is around 1,000,000 yen ($9800). It could be a special introductory price (at least one shop hints at that). I have a feeling that Japan is the primary market for this back.
Krister
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The most important would be live view on these old cameras.
Why is that so hard to make?
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That happened for the same reason it always does on fora - someone above was not able to just be happy for Hasselblad's good news; they had to throw in a cut at Phase while they were at it. And then the Phase crew naturally jumped in to defend/clarify. But it's hardly surprising that threads get derailed - it's a small sector and you can't really discuss a big development for one group without considering the implications for the other(s).
Ray
Hass could do really well if they weren't so full of arrogance... They consider all criticism as offence and the act in the opposite direction they are advised by the possible customers... My advises to them...
1. Focus on the H4X (or a replacement) as your main camera body and sell it to everyone...
2. Turn all your backs (40, 50, 50c, 50ms, 200ms, 60) to "interchangeable camera mount" (like CFs where) and make them "self powered"....
3. Allow compatibility for camera powered older backs, so that they may work to the new "open" system...
In fact it is surprising they are still around after so many (and completely insane) continuous marketing mistakes their stupid (and suicidal) marketing department has done... P1 never won a race... it was Hassy alone that took their own eyes off... From thereafter, they're just ...blind!!!! ???
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A 5k euro pricing is most likely possible, high price is to cover development cost, not manufacturing. As it cannot be used on the H system it would not hurt the regular pro sales which can cover the development cost for this back if sales volumes fail. This is an excellent back for nostalgic V system amateurs and artists. My guess is that they could make more money with a lower price point, but they don't dare.
The current price is almost exactly the same as for the old CFV-50. With the same pricing I think it will sell just as good/bad as the old. Iso is better with this new, but sensor is smaller and tech cam compatibility is worse. So some will like this new one better while others actually prefer the old.
I am surprised that this product appeared at all, I thought the CCD CFV-50 would be the last V system product. My guess is this is nothing more than a "why not?"-product spinoff from the H5D-50c, ie all real development risk and cost is carried by that.
But with a real V system strategy aimed at middle class amateurs I think they could make some real money out of this.
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But why no live view??
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But why no live view??
My feeling - from what someone said here - is that they ran out of dev time, and wanted to bring to market, hoping to update later with added features.
Edmund
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Hass could do really well if they weren't so full of arrogance... They consider all criticism as offence and the act in the opposite direction they are advised by the possible customers... My advises to them...
1. Focus on the H4X (or a replacement) as your main camera body and sell it to everyone...
2. Turn all your backs (40, 50, 50c, 50ms, 200ms, 60) to "interchangeable camera mount" (like CFs where) and make them "self powered"....
3. Allow compatibility for camera powered older backs, so that they may work to the new "open" system...
In fact it is surprising they are still around after so many (and completely insane) continuous marketing mistakes their stupid (and suicidal) marketing department has done... P1 never won a race... it was Hassy alone that took their own eyes off... From thereafter, they're just ...blind!!!! ???
I agree with your point 2. Just imagine this CFV50c back as a CF back, with Mamiya/Phase 645AF and Contax 645 i-adaptor plates. Who'd buy an IQ250 for their Mamiya or Contax, at $20k more? Hasselblad could eat a large portion of Phase One's lunch, if they did that one simple thing.
Ray
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I agree with your point 2. Just imagine this CFV50c back as a CF back, with Mamiya/Phase 645AF and Contax 645 i-adaptor plates. Who'd buy an IQ250 for their Mamiya or Contax, at $20k more? Hasselblad could eat a large portion of Phase One's lunch, if they did that one simple thing.
Ray
I think Phase would probably just sue. They own Mamiya now and the legal issues concerning compatibility are a lawyers paradise.
I think Hassy should just make better cheaper H systems, they have a good product except it is too cheap for the dealers to sell, and too expensive for the clients to buy.Price the Hassy at $10K and it will outsell the Pentax is my guess.
Edmund
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I think Hassy should just make better cheaper H systems, they have a good product except it is too cheap for the dealers to sell, and too expensive for the clients to buy.Price the Hassy at $10K and it will outsell the Pentax is my guess.
Spot on according to me.
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I think Phase would probably just sue. They own Mamiya now and the legal issues concerning compatibility are a lawyers paradise.
I doubt it, for two reasons: (1) Imacon (later Hasselblad) and Sinar already had extensive adaptor-based DB systems for every MF and LF interchangeable-back camera under the sun, and I don't recall lawyers getting involved; (2) What law gives Phase One and Leaf permission to continue to make their DBs in Hasselblad V and H mounts, but prevents Hasselblad from making theirs in a Mamiya mount?
Ray
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I've always been a fan of the universal back with adapter plates so I'd love to see the CFV-50 be also made in the CF style, but then again as long as I am wishing, I'd also see a multishot micro step version and another with a larger sensor.
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The reality is that Hasselblad and Sinar tried all of those things in the past and couldn't make it work commercially.
Phase One could and took the market. Except for the CFV-50c back and one tethered Sinar back they have no competition anymore in the standalone digital back market.
Perhaps things are different now, not sure, perhaps the market would be more open towards a lower price alternative, who knows…?
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The reality is that Hasselblad and Sinar tried all of those things in the past and couldn't make it work commercially.
I put that down to two reasons:
- they undermined the attractiveness of their own concept, by pricing the camera adapters much too high (~ $1000 each, rather than ~$300 each). People with multiple camera platforms - the natural customers for this idea - were surely put off by the substantial costs of buying several adapters. Taking a loss on making the adapters could have been offset by raising the DB price; the user pays much the same overall, but psychologically is much happier about the value of the flexibility in the system.
- the DB systems themselves were perhaps half a step behind what Phase One were offering. This reason is really a combination of several things. The CCDs sensors might have been the same, but Imacon/Hasselblad and Sinar (and indeed Leaf) stayed with dated and inconvenient setups (Imagebanks, under-the-camera disk drives, iPaqs, tethered only DBs...dangly dongly things in general), while the contemporary Kodak DCS645 series and Phase One P-series were completely self-contained - which is where the market was going. Later, when Hasselblad and Sinar produced their own self-contained backs, Phase One evolved to the P+ backs with exceptional, unlimited long exposures...while the Hasselblads and Sinars persisted with stupid exposure hard limits like 30 or 32 seconds. Sure, their unique tech was in offering some multishot backs, but more shooters wanted Phase One's long exposures or Sensor+ high ISOs than wanted multishot. Hardware diversity was another factor - Phase One had 5 (and later 7) DBs of different generations, sensor sizes and prices to choose from; the others had only 2-3 DBs each for their adapter-based systems. Software also played a role, with Capture One DB perceived to be more stable and usable than Flexcolor, Sinar taking forever to support Windows PCs, and so on.
I would think that now most of those factors and differentials are gone, and an adapter-based system would be competitive again.
Ray
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In an ideal world a universal back with adapters would be open for development as well. You have this back that does functions A-Z and with the adapters easy access to the pin outs….
And Ray, the early Ixpress backs did rely on the image bank, but the later CF style did not. Digital backs themselves seem more tethered to their makers software than anything else. I don't suggest this is a bad thing, but worth noting. Some people liked one type of software more than another and that maybe made more difference than the backs themselves.
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I think Phase would probably just sue. They own Mamiya now and the legal issues concerning compatibility are a lawyers paradise.
I think Hassy should just make better cheaper H systems, they have a good product except it is too cheap for the dealers to sell, and too expensive for the clients to buy.Price the Hassy at $10K and it will outsell the Pentax is my guess.
Edmund
They can't sue anybody Ed... they won the case against Hassy for exactly the opposite reasons... Sinar provides adapters compatible to Mamiya for all their backs... 8)
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I've always been a fan of the universal back with adapter plates so I'd love to see the CFV-50 be also made in the CF style, but then again as long as I am wishing, I'd also see a multishot micro step version and another with a larger sensor.
+1 for that... Maybe even a larger sensor with multishot/microstep capability... They said that the Cmos sensor is compatible with their MS technology when they first announced the H5-50...
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I put that down to two reasons:
- they undermined the attractiveness of their own concept, by pricing the camera adapters much too high (~ $1000 each, rather than ~$300 each). People with multiple camera platforms - the natural customers for this idea - were surely put off by the substantial costs of buying several adapters. Taking a loss on making the adapters could have been offset by raising the DB price; the user pays much the same overall, but psychologically is much happier about the value of the flexibility in the system.
- the DB systems themselves were perhaps half a step behind what Phase One were offering. This reason is really a combination of several things. The CCDs sensors might have been the same, but Imacon/Hasselblad and Sinar (and indeed Leaf) stayed with dated and inconvenient setups (Imagebanks, under-the-camera disk drives, iPaqs, tethered only DBs...dangly dongly things in general), while the contemporary Kodak DCS645 series and Phase One P-series were completely self-contained - which is where the market was going. Later, when Hasselblad and Sinar produced their own self-contained backs, Phase One evolved to the P+ backs with exceptional, unlimited long exposures...while the Hasselblads and Sinars persisted with stupid exposure hard limits like 30 or 32 seconds. Sure, their unique tech was in offering some multishot backs, but more shooters wanted Phase One's long exposures or Sensor+ high ISOs than wanted multishot. Hardware diversity was another factor - Phase One had 5 (and later 7) DBs of different generations, sensor sizes and prices to choose from; the others had only 2-3 DBs each for their adapter-based systems. Software also played a role, with Capture One DB perceived to be more stable and usable than Flexcolor, Sinar taking forever to support Windows PCs, and so on.
I would think that now most of those factors and differentials are gone, and an adapter-based system would be competitive again.
Ray
I believe that the reasons you state are correct but rather secondary than prime.... IMO the prime reasons for Hasselblad's failure was that they "closed" the H system... for Sinar the main reason for failure was that they had so many different codes for different backs that would all fit the same camera... An additional reason for Sinar was their inability to provide a decent/stable software and their luck of compatibility with Windows... Of course Phase One "helped" a bit with their denial to support the HY6 "universal" system, but again Sinar never provided a larger image area than 48x36 for their backs...
Another crucial moment in Sinar's/Hasselblad V "carrier" was the announcement of P65+ and its size of image area... At the same time both the V system and HY6/6xxx never provided a wider lens than 40mm thus having (in combination with the "cropped" sensors they provided) their customers without "real" WA photography.
All the above look very simple really and it's a surprise they where never solved while they where major problems that lasted too long. ???
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Doug Peterson pointed out that my previous link to the public accounts of Victor Hasselblad AB did not reflect the overlying Hasselblad AB holding company. This is true, however to get the full picture, it seems one needs to look higher up in the company structure which Ventizz established when they took over in 2011. Nowadays the main holding company is called Hasselblad Holding s.a. r.l., and is registered in Luxembourg. The main operational units are Victor Hasselblad AB in Sweden (Development, manufacturing and service) and Hasselblad A/S in Denmark (Sales, marketing and administration, previously Imacon). The public accounts for the whole Hasseblad-group (with 16 subsidiaries around the world) are included with the public accounts of Hasseblad AB, and can be ordered from www.allabolag.se. I don't want to spam a thread related to the new back, however the new Hasseblad products are a major part of the financial picture. Some interesting tidbits from the annual report of Hasseblad Holding:
Sales for the group as a whole was 33,6 MEUR (20,58 MEUR in 2011). Operating loss 13,68 MEUR (operating profit 13,49 MEUR in 2011), net loss 18,62 MEUR (profit 13,88 MEUR in 2011). Some quotes from the report, with my emphasis and comments in brackets:
"On June 27 2011, HSE [Ventizz] acquired 100% of the share capital of Hasselblad AB, Sweden for TEUR 9,678. [this has never been reported before, as far as I can see - the press release stated "The parties have agreed not to disclose the purchase price."]
...
As the purchase price allocation show negative goodwill of TEUR 18,707 arising from the acquisition, ... [this] indicates that the acquisition was a bargain purchase. The negative goodwill is mainly attributable to the fact that HSE [Ventizz] will have to make significant additional investments in the Hasselblad Group for development of the future products and activities that is expected to provide HSE a positive return on the Investment.
...
In the budget period 2013-2014 revenue is expected to increase by approximately EUR 100 million. By the end of 2014 it is Managements expectation that more that 90% of the revenue will come from new products based on or new improved versions of existing Hasselblad products. Therefore, the results of the on-going product launches are an inherent risk in relation to the valuation of intangible assets including the brand.
...
The value of the brand (as well as all other assets} were also assessed in connection with the purchase price allocation in 2011 and the brand was at that time found to have a value of EUR 18.0 million (see F.3).
...
The brand refers to the name ''Hasselblad" and has been classified as having an indefinite useful life time. When determining the useful life time it has been considered that the brand name for decades has been well known among professionals and photo enthusiasts. In addition, maintaining and further expanding the utilisation of the Hasselblad brand is included in concrete plans for the future.
...
From its owner the Group received capital contributions in 2011 of TEUR 14,340 and loan of TEUR 2,500.
In order to fund the daily operations of the Group and the ongoing launch of new products the Group has received significant capital contributions from the Group's shareholder Tomese S.a r.l [Ventizz] as the Group has not been able to generate sufficient cash flows from operations to cover the cash requirements from daily operations and the investments in the ongoing launch of new products. In 2012 the Group received TEUR 28,703 in total and in 2013 the Company has received further TEUR 13,700 In total in capital injections. Management assess that the daily operations and the launch of new products requires further funding in order to ensure that the Group can continue its operations. Therefore, the Group's basis as a going concern is depending on contribution of liquidity from the shareholders or external lenders. Management has assessed that in order to cover the Group’s short-term liquidity needs contribution of further liquidity from the shareholders or external lenders is required. So far the shareholders have provided bridge financing to cover the Group’s short-term liquidity need. On July 12, 2013 a loan agreement was signed with an external lender regarding loans to the Group In the amount of TEUR 9,000.
...
Should the [loan] conditions precedent not be met it is Managements view that the Group will receive required liquidity either from the shareholders or external lenders when needed. Management's assessment is based on the shareholders support to the Group in the past, and indications from the shareholders. Furthermore it is Management's expectation that the result for 2013 will show significant improvements compared to 2012. These expectations are mainly due to the launch of new products and changes in the Group's cost structure, which will have positive impact on the operating income. [The CEO was fired in january of this year, which I guess speaks for itself] Therefore, the results of the ongoing product launches are an inherent risk relating to the group’s basis as a going concern in a medium and long-term perspective.
Based on the assessment carried out Management finds it appropriate to present the annual report on a basis of going concern.
F.34 Events after the reporting period
The partner Tomese S.a r.l [Ventizz] has in 2013 provided additional funding for the Group amounting to TEUR 13,700 and a TEUR 8,000 loan agreement with an external lender has been signed to finance the Group's growth relating to launch of new products.(see F.33)
[The audtiors (PWC) are not in agreement with management's analysis:]
Emphasis of matter
Without qualifying our opinion, we draw attention to Note F.33 which indicates that the Group incurred a net loss of TEUR 18,620 and negative cash flows from operations and investments of TEUR 23,077 during the year ended 31 December 2012 and to Note F.10 regarding impairment of intangible assets. The valuation of intangible assets and the going concern assumption are highly dependent upon Hasselblad Holding S.a r.l. Group's ability to successfully launch its new products. Therefore, the Manager’s assessment regarding the expected results of the on-going product launches and its assumptions regarding the growth rates of revenue is an inherent risk in relation with the valuation of the intangible assets amounting to EUR TEUR 23,873 as at 31 December 2012. These conditions, along with other matters as set forth in Note F.33, indicate the existence of a material uncertainty that may cast significant doubt about the Company’s ability to continue as a going concern.
... END
I hope they manage to survive somehow, and would like to report some more positive news, but the numbers look pretty bleak. Maybe I'm too cynical, but basically Ventizz paid 10 million euro for Hasselblad and went "all in" on the new cameras/back being a success. If they don't, maybe it's not too far fetched to see them sell of the brand for the reported 18 million euro its valued at. The report is dated 31. july 2013, so the next report for 2013 should be out any day now.
Dag
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Hass could do really well if they weren't so full of arrogance... They consider all criticism as offence and the act in the opposite direction they are advised by the possible customers... My advises to them...
1. Focus on the H4X (or a replacement) as your main camera body and sell it to everyone...
2. Turn all your backs (40, 50, 50c, 50ms, 200ms, 60) to "interchangeable camera mount" (like CFs where) and make them "self powered"....
3. Allow compatibility for camera powered older backs, so that they may work to the new "open" system...
In fact it is surprising they are still around after so many (and completely insane) continuous marketing mistakes their stupid (and suicidal) marketing department has done... P1 never won a race... it was Hassy alone that took their own eyes off... From thereafter, they're just ...blind!!!! ???
Sorry, I have used them all, CF (MS), H3, H4 and now H5 and everytime HB did improve. The H5 is a joy to use. HB chose another route and for me at least it is working, so it is for many others. Even though I was not amused at first too! Now, I am glad with the H5 which I can put on most other cameras too if needed. If I want to use the V, I need to buy a CFV which is decently priced. What other mount would I want to have? Why would I want to be able to put my back onto a Mamiya/DF?
The whole concept of this system as being solely a back is a station passed a very long time ago.
I am not paying any attention anymore to HB marketing but the tools are very nice to use!
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Sorry, I have used them all, CF (MS), H3, H4 and now H5 and everytime HB did improve. The H5 is a joy to use. HB chose another route and for me at least it is working, so it is for many others. Even though I was not amused at first too! Now, I am glad with the H5 which I can put on most other cameras too if needed. If I want to use the V, I need to buy a CFV which is decently priced. What other mount would I want to have? Why would I want to be able to put my back onto a Mamiya/DF?
The whole concept of this system as being solely a back is a station passed a very long time ago.
I am not paying any attention anymore to HB marketing but the tools are very nice to use!
I think you completely missed the point... Nobody here says that your H5 isn't "a joy to use" ...my comments are on why people prefer other products than buying Hasselblad... although it's a "joy to use"! After all, you wouldn't miss a bit from the "joy of use" if the system was "open"... ;)
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I think you completely missed the point... Nobody here says that your H5 isn't "a joy to use" ...my comments are on why people prefer other products than buying Hasselblad... although it's a "joy to use"! After all, you wouldn't miss a bit from the "joy of use" if the system was "open"... ;)
I don't think so. The integrated approach HB took eventually led to the current line-up. I am not so sure it would have when they would have kept basing it upon the CF line... Anyway it is a moot point to discuss since history has led us elsewhere.
Mind you, I was a very vocal advocate for the CF line and the system being open. Just saying that I believe that where we are now just isn't that bad even though there are still areas that can/should be improved upon.
Just saying that there are also a lot of people buying because of this 'closed' and integrated concept.
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I don't think so. The integrated approach HB took eventually led to the current line-up. I am not so sure it would have when they would have kept basing it upon the CF line... Anyway it is a moot point to discuss since history has led us elsewhere.
Mind you, I was a very vocal advocate for the CF line and the system being open. Just saying that I believe that where we are now just isn't that bad even though there are still areas that can/should be improved upon.
Just saying that there are also a lot of people buying because of this 'closed' and integrated concept.
Sooo... according to your opinion they should do nothing to improve their marketing position? ...They should just wait for the inevitable to happen? Do you expect V users to continue without WA photography? ...do you expect H3d users to change their cameras just to upgrade the back at sometime? Maybe H3-39Dii users should upgrade to a ...lunar? ...The money is hardly enough (for a lunar) if they sell their H3-Ds on an Ebay listing... Well... I may be selling one of my C645 bodies and buy TWO "joys to use" instead... (but I won't). I guess if they finally die... they'll never admit they did anything wrong... It will be customers fault for not buying "joys to use" or Lunars... Guess what... my Contax 645 is NOT (??? 8)) a "joy to use" ...but I'll stick with it (and my 528c back)! ;)
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You should read what I write instead of trying to twist my words into something that obviously suits you better. I believe in my frist post I already mentioned I am not particularly impressed by HB marketing.
I don't care what you do and I have no expectations whatsoever what other people might or should do. I simply do not completely agree with your opinion.
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You should read what I write instead of trying to twist my words into something that obviously suits you better. I believe in my frist post I already mentioned I am not particularly impressed by HB marketing.
I don't care what you do and I have no expectations whatsoever what other people might or should do. I simply do not completely agree with your opinion.
Kids - play nice. Bash the cameras, bash the companies, but don't bash the other photographers.
Edmund
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Kids - play nice. Bash the cameras, bash the companies, but don't bash the other photographers.
Edmund
But Ed, nobody is bashing the cameras here... its rather some "marketing" stupid decisions that does it! What I would like to see is Hasselblad opening the system (along with their minds) and I am sure photographers will support them towards survival. :)
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But Ed, nobody is bashing the cameras here... its rather some "marketing" stupid decisions that does it! What I would like to see is Hasselblad opening the system (along with their minds) and I am sure photographers will support them towards survival. :)
I was speaking to a dealer recently and he told me that before Hassy closed the system, he sold more H systems by at least 10x then the DF+. He has clients that still work with their H2s just because they want to keep that system.
If Hassy opened the system, I am sure they would do well.
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If Hassy opened the system, I am sure they would do well.
Not sure what you are talking about… the H4x is available at B&H and other stores and it takes the latest IQ and Credo backs… what is there to open up?
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Not sure what you are talking about… the H4x is available at B&H and other stores and it takes the latest IQ and Credo backs… what is there to open up?
The H5 maybe. Hassy may sell a H4X, but are they really operating with an open mindset? Until they start releasing all of their cameras as being open, they are not going to when many people over.
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The H5 maybe. Hassy may sell a H4X, but are they really operating with an open mindset? Until they start releasing all of their cameras as being open, they are not going to when many people over.
Joe,
I have a so-called open configuration: H4X and P30+. It is not ideal…
The older HC lenses are very well supported by Capture One, the newer lenses not so much…
These are the lenses that are officially supported by Capture One and for which Capture One will perform software corrections: HC 2.2/100, HC 2.8/80, HC 3.2/150, HC 3.5-4.5/50-110, HC 3.5/35, HC 4/120, HCD 4/28
That is only 7 out of 12 lenses... On top of that I was told by a respected member of this forum that the software corrections of C1 for the HCD 28 are a bit underwhelming compared to the ones of Phocus.
If you spend $5-7K on a lens you would want it to be optimally supported, wouldn't you, and the reality is that Phocus would give you that and Capture One does not…
The so-called openness of Phase One might sound better in marketing than it is in reality…
Joris.
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Joe,
The so-called openness of Phase One might sound better in marketing than it is in reality…
Joris.
Color me surprised.
Although I wonder how many of the Phase One "open" users with a Hassy can actually be persuaded to downgrade to a Phamiya. And I wonder how many H-Phase users are willing to downgrade from C1 to Phocus.
Edmund
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Joe,
I have a so-called open configuration: H4X and P30+. It is not ideal…
The older HC lenses are very well supported by Capture One, the newer lenses not so much…
These are the lenses that are officially supported by Capture One and for which Capture One will perform software corrections: HC 2.2/100, HC 2.8/80, HC 3.2/150, HC 3.5-4.5/50-110, HC 3.5/35, HC 4/120, HCD 4/28
That is only 7 out of 12 lenses... On top of that I was told by a respected member of this forum that the software corrections of C1 for the HCD 28 are a bit underwhelming compared to the ones of Phocus.
If you spend $5-7K on a lens you would want it to be optimally supported, wouldn't you, and the reality is that Phocus would give you that and Capture One does not…
The so-called openness of Phase One might sound better in marketing than it is in reality…
Joris.
I dont see how this relates to what I said.
Hassy fully opening their system would still allow people to buy Hassy backs and use Phocus, if they so choose to. But is would also allow for people who want to use P1 on a Hassy to do so as well more easily. If C1 does not do as good of a job with Hassy's lenses as Phocus does, then that is something the purchaser needs to take into consideration when buying. It is not a reason to prevent the system from being opened, since you would still be able to purchase Hassy backs and use Phocus, regardless.
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I dont see how this relates to what I said.
Hassy fully opening their system would still allow people to buy Hassy backs and use Phocus, if they so choose to. But is would also allow for people who want to use P1 on a Hassy to do so as well more easily. If C1 does not do as good of a job with Hassy's lenses as Phocus does, then that is something the purchaser needs to take into consideration when buying. It is not a reason to prevent the system from being opened, since you would still be able to purchase Hassy backs and use Phocus, regardless.
The problem as I understand it is that Hassy were planning to turn their body into a dumb mirrorbox, and put most of the intelligence in their backs. Which was forward looking, as CMOS-based cameras can do main-sensor based focusing, live view etc, and thus don't really need a mirror. However, it does mean that they may have trouble in the future providing a body that can supply focusing signals etc, if they don't have their own back mounted. So basically they took a marketing decision based on forward-looking technical data that didn't translate into reality, and stranded their existing userbase. The part I don't understand is why they had to translate their technical roadmap into an announcement. What they should have done is indeed continue serving their existing customer base until the last possible moment. Hasselblad did a supercharged Osborne.
To put matters in context, Dalsa and Kodak promised a CMOS chip transition for ages, but in fact they never delivered on their promises, and gin fact there wouldn't be one if Sony hadn't jumped in for reasons that clearly have little to do with economics.
I think H have camera DNA, Phase have computer and commercial DNA, a mix would be nice for the users - but in the mean time which system you use depends on whether you prefer a better shooting experience or a better post experience or are prepared to put up with multiple vendor and integration issues.
Edmund
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Not sure what you are talking about… the H4x is available at B&H and other stores and it takes the latest IQ and Credo backs… what is there to open up?
Now, where is that 200ms CF back for my Contax to replace my 528c? ...Never mind, Sinar makes an alternative with their E-xact!!!
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Now, where is that 200ms CF back for my Contax to replace my 528c? ...Never mind, Sinar makes an alternative with their E-xact!!!
I can only imagine how much money Hasselblad must be missing out on by not making their 200MS back available in Contax mount...
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I can only imagine how much money Hasselblad must be missing out on by not making their 200MS back available in Contax mount...
I can only imagine how much money (and customers) they lost by stop selling all their backs to any other camera... even their own H4X...
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Hi,
My understanding was that Phase One originally wanted to acquire rights and tools for Contax 645. Would have been nice, but it did not work out. Phase makes a good job of building a system around the Mamiya platform they bought in to. But, the ideal marriage may have been Hasselblad and Phase One.
Best regards
Erik
The problem as I understand it is that Hassy were planning to turn their body into a dumb mirrorbox, and put most of the intelligence in their backs. Which was forward looking, as CMOS-based cameras can do main-sensor based focusing, live view etc, and thus don't really need a mirror. However, it does mean that they may have trouble in the future providing a body that can supply focusing signals etc, if they don't have their own back mounted. So basically they took a marketing decision based on forward-looking technical data that didn't translate into reality, and stranded their existing userbase. The part I don't understand is why they had to translate their technical roadmap into an announcement. What they should have done is indeed continue serving their existing customer base until the last possible moment. Hasselblad did a supercharged Osborne.
To put matters in context, Dalsa and Kodak promised a CMOS chip transition for ages, but in fact they never delivered on their promises, and gin fact there wouldn't be one if Sony hadn't jumped in for reasons that clearly have little to do with economics.
I think H have camera DNA, Phase have computer and commercial DNA, a mix would be nice for the users - but in the mean time which system you use depends on whether you prefer a better shooting experience or a better post experience or are prepared to put up with multiple vendor and integration issues.
Edmund
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Hi,
My understanding was that Phase One originally wanted to acquire rights and tools for Contax 645. Would have been nice, but it did not work out. Phase makes a good job of building a system around the Mamiya platform they bought in to. But, the ideal marriage may have been Hasselblad and Phase One.
Best regards
Erik
I have heard it said that mergers are like a certain game ... there's a "Mommy" and a "Daddy" in every merger, and some claim that "Mommy" doesn't get to enjoy the experience quite as much :)
Edmund
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I'd like to see HB bring back the CF 528 in universal mount but modernized with either CMOS or the 50mp sensor. I still use my CF 528 on my Rollei 6008AF. Under the right conditions, that combo can produce a file that I think would stand up to anything you could throw at it - and amazingly that back was from 2004 !! Yes Sinar still makes a micro step back with universal adapters, but its got no display and has to be tethered.
But looking at the financials posted above you have to wonder how much patience Ventiz has? How much of that loss was given up to the Lunar and the execs and product managers that birthed it?
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Supporting users of the old V System with a brand new back with the latest MD Sensor is amazing.
Probably V System users want to keep in in a lower budget then somebody who buys a new IQ250 System.
I don't understand anybody complaining about something.
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I'd like to see HB bring back the CF 528 in universal mount but modernized with either CMOS or the 50mp sensor. I still use my CF 528 on my Rollei 6008AF. Under the right conditions, that combo can produce a file that I think would stand up to anything you could throw at it - and amazingly that back was from 2004 !! Yes Sinar still makes a micro step back with universal adapters, but its got no display and has to be tethered.
But looking at the financials posted above you have to wonder how much patience Ventiz has? How much of that loss was given up to the Lunar and the execs and product managers that birthed it?
Well... since for MS one needs tethered anyway, a Sinar being a dedicated back for MS without much attention to untethered captures doesn't matter much, does it Eric? I will "knock on the door" of Sinar for their E-xact... but I won't be selling my 528c either... In fact I wouldn't trade it for a modern 80mp either... In fact, if I remember well, you sold your first one for a high-res back, didn't work well and then you bought a second one didn't you? ...After all forums are for people learning from one another, I wish more have learned (maybe makers too) from your experience! ;)
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In fact, if I remember well, you sold your first one for a high-res back, didn't work well and then you bought a second one didn't you? ...After all forums are for people learning from one another, I wish more have learned (maybe makers too) from your experience! ;)
Yes, I had a 528c which was great, but I sold it. I wasn't such a fan of the image bank but loved the files. I bought the CF-ii 39MS after the c528. I like it to, but sold it fairly quickly. It wasn't until later that I bought the 80mp back. By that time I had the CF 528 again which is much more convenient than the 528c. It's hard to compare the two - the AFi-ii definitely wins on many counts especially workflow. Multishot does not make good workflow - if you have a lot to shoot the 80mp single shot backs are much more convenient, but I do think the multishot files are very unique - in their own category. You read so much about the Foveon look - punching way over their mp class - well that's nothing new to multishot users.
I never have understood why exactly the multishot had to be exclusively tethered. I mean all those files could be stored to a card in a sequence just the same as single shot files. It would be nice to have that as an option.
Anyhow, I have had a lot of digital backs… I also had a 384c, and a CF-ii 39MS, a p20+, AFi-ii 7. Really all had good qualities. Right now I own the CF 528, and an AFi-ii 12 plus recently I bought a Sinar 54H and have it also fitted to a Rollei 6008AF body and I'm going to compare it to the CF 528.
I do most of my photo work with the AFi-ii 12, but I still like the CF 528 for art reproduction and film 'scanning'. Also its great for table top work with the technical camera since the bigger pixels have less color cast issues than the AFi-ii 12. But for studio work with people the AFi-ii 12 is very nice. Love the revolving sensor - which is simply brilliant.
Back on topic, it sure seems that an adapter based universal back (like the Hasselblad CF line) could be made with multi-shot and for cameras with enough space also with a rotating mount.
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Is the glass, specifically the glass known to be "good", 40mm, 100mm, 120mm, 180mm, in CFi incarnations, going to be a disappointment on the new back?
Given previous posts, myself included, on the requirements for producing the best possible results on the V system with a digital back, is this resolution a step too far?
Simply: back versus lens, the only way to find out... fight. Who wins, and if it is back are we potentially better off buying into the H system?