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Author Topic: Hasselblad CFV50c  (Read 45496 times)

jduncan

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2014, 06:05:06 pm »

The high P1 list pricing allows them to
1) set a substantially lower wholesale price and reward the dealers for prescribing P1, and make sure that dealers who sell P1 provide good service. Which is a good thing for customer and dealer alike, provided the customer can afford the spare cash.

2) create an incentive for P1 rental  as buying wholesale  is cheap and renting out is indexed on list. This can be good for everybody because it creates a lively rental market, albeit an expensive one.  

3) Make  money for their owners. This can mean the company sticks around and makes better products, although they are sold to the select few.

However although high list prices with good dealer margins can seem to be good business, they do create a tempting entry point for cheap competition and then they kill you because you and your channel have become bloated. I don't think MF dealers are enjoying the D810 release, even though they will tell you that the D810 does not compete with MF.

BTW, in some markets in some countries (of course not in the honest US), high priced products sell well to institutions because of paid-back buyer commissions, and high priced rentals also play well because they are settled by the customer who wants "the best" and then generate  paid back renter commissions.

Edmund


That was exactly what Happen to IBM  and HP when Dell enter the PC market. They had a contract and a dealership model.  When the PCs become interchangeable and fiable  (less need for support) the strengths of the dealership model become an effective barrier of entry  for them to the direct sales model.  So the same model that was a barrier of entry for Dell and the clone vendors to the corporate market become a barrier of entry for IBM, HP etc to enter the future.

In the other hand, about your answer to my comment: The idea of the dealership margins as an explanation to the delay of Phase new Camera is intriguing, but I believe is more a technical issue.  From hints I have peeked from the "review" of the H5D I guess that:

1. Phase  will have a new camera for Photokina.
2. It will have a different autofocus system.


Let see how it unfolds.

Best regards,

J. Duncan

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JV

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2014, 07:05:01 pm »

From hints I have peeked from the "review" of the H5D I guess that:

1. Phase  will have a new camera for Photokina.
2. It will have a different autofocus system.


Let see how it unfolds.

This should normally also be a Leaf year, shouldn't it, with the Credo backs being 2 years old and Phase typically on a 2-years cycle.

Although perhaps with the IQ250 already released this year that might not make any sense anymore.

Photokina is always interesting.  Hopefully Leica has an announcement as well...

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MrSmith

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2014, 07:32:52 pm »

Maybe Sony will too? After all how long ago was the sensor in the nikon D800 released?  ;)
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Dan Wells

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2014, 11:13:42 pm »

Someone should do an MF mirrorless - as a couple of posters have suggested. Both Fuji and Mamiya used to have mirrorless MF film cameras, including interchangeable lens models. Some of the Fujis (at relatively reasonable sizes and weights) even got as big as 6x9 cm negatives!What if Fuji pulled a Pentax, skipped right over a full-frame model and the successor to the X-Pro 1 was medium format? The X-T1 is a very nice top end to the APS-C series, and it is hard to imagine what a 16 MP APS-C successor to the X-Pro 1 could bring to the table that would justify the two years since the original?
      What if it wasn't a 16 MP camera at all, but a 50 MP 33x44 mm camera (I'm assuming Fuji isn't going to go backwards to a CCD sensor, and the only MF CMOS is 33x44)? Of course it would need new lenses, but so would a FF successor to the X-Pro 1. I wonder what such a body would cost? I suspect it could be (disruptively) priced right in the realm of a D4s or a 1Dx, giving a real option in that range - the speed of the sports cameras or the image quality of a 50 MP "rangefinder". At present, there is a huge jump in the cost of image-quality focused cameras - from the $2000-$3200 range inhabited by the D810 and A7r up to the $10,000+ territory of medium format - anything in between actually offers reduced image quality at modest ISO (in return for extreme ISO capability and 10+ FPS). What if Fuji (or Sony?) jumped in at $6000 with a 50 MP camera based on the Sony CMOS sensor? It wouldn't have a removable back, but the flange distance would be short enough to attach the entire camera to a tech camera, and it would be reasonably enough priced that there wouldn't be a huge cost argument for back upgrades...

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tjv

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2014, 03:34:16 am »

What "review" are you referring to? The rumours have pointed to Phase having a new camera coming out since forever, I've lost track... Seriously...
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2014, 04:54:52 am »

What "review" are you referring to? The rumours have pointed to Phase having a new camera coming out since forever, I've lost track... Seriously...

+1.

Edmund
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2014, 03:41:22 pm »

Why does everyone presume that if a new P1 camera will be introduced at Photokina, it will be an MF camera? ...with MFDB sales shrinking and being under more threat the more the time, it looks more sensible for a FF (mirrorless or DSLR) model to be among their plans... It should give a major boost to their prime source of income anyway... their Capture One software! ...remember that Sony "likes" relationships with more "specialised" makers (Nikon, Pentax, Zeiss... now P1, Hassy).  ::)

 Someone mentioned the possibility of Fuji using a ...Sony sensor before, the one thing that will never happen... "Fuji using other than theirs"... that is a joke right?  :o
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JV

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2014, 07:47:05 pm »

Why does everyone presume that if a new P1 camera will be introduced at Photokina, it will be an MF camera? ...with MFDB sales shrinking and being under more threat the more the time, it looks more sensible for a FF (mirrorless or DSLR) model to be among their plans... It should give a major boost to their prime source of income anyway... their Capture One software! ...remember that Sony "likes" relationships with more "specialised" makers (Nikon, Pentax, Zeiss... now P1, Hassy).  ::)

 Someone mentioned the possibility of Fuji using a ...Sony sensor before, the one thing that will never happen... "Fuji using other than theirs"... that is a joke right?  :o

Not that it matters to me but I didn't think it was very clear where Fuji currently gets its sensors from, some say Sony, others say Toshiba, or a combination of both…

Regarding the Phase One camera, a new body is a significant investment which IMO will not necessarily result in a significant increase in sales for Phase One, therefore it might not be at the top of the priority list...

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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2014, 08:03:47 pm »

Not that it matters to me but I didn't think it was very clear where Fuji currently gets its sensors from, some say Sony, others say Toshiba, or a combination of both…

Regarding the Phase One camera, a new body is a significant investment which IMO will not necessarily result in a significant increase in sales for Phase One, therefore it might not be at the top of the priority list...


Fuji makes its own sensors... They always have and always will... Its like saying that Fuji would ever apply to Kodak or Agfa to build them ...film for their cameras!  ;D
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2014, 10:42:59 pm »

Why does everyone presume that if a new P1 camera will be introduced at Photokina, it will be an MF camera? ...with MFDB sales shrinking and being under more threat the more the time, it looks more sensible for a FF (mirrorless or DSLR) model to be among their plans... It should give a major boost to their prime source of income anyway... their Capture One software! ...remember that Sony "likes" relationships with more "specialised" makers (Nikon, Pentax, Zeiss... now P1, Hassy).  ::)

 Someone mentioned the possibility of Fuji using a ...Sony sensor before, the one thing that will never happen... "Fuji using other than theirs"... that is a joke right?  :o


Not that I'd hold you to it, but you'e quite incorrect about Capture One representing the majority of Phase One sales revenue.

As far as a 35mm camera is concerned, I think it would be prudent if Phase One focused on the medium format camera first before embarking on an entirely new camera system in an extremely competitive playing field.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2014, 04:09:15 am »


Not that I'd hold you to it, but you'e quite incorrect about Capture One representing the majority of Phase One sales revenue.

As far as a 35mm camera is concerned, I think it would be prudent if Phase One focused on the medium format camera first before embarking on an entirely new camera system in an extremely competitive playing field.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
I don't say that they should challenge the "Big boys" in the FF market... There is room though for a specialised design that could serve their current customers... A highly sophisticated modular mirrorless  with extras like a dedicated bellows and extensive movements and perhaps an electronically self adaptable to the lens in use OVF could provide a very interesting alternative for all architectural, still life studio and landscape photography...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #71 on: July 30, 2014, 04:31:23 am »

Fuji makes its own sensors... They always have and always will... Its like saying that Fuji would ever apply to Kodak or Agfa to build them ...film for their cameras!  ;D

My understanding is that Fuji uses Sony sensors and only develop their own color filters/micro lenses/processing pipe.

Cheers,
Bernard

Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #72 on: July 30, 2014, 06:50:09 am »

My understanding is that Fuji uses Sony sensors and only develop their own color filters/micro lenses/processing pipe.

Cheers,
Bernard

I believe that it is common to call an "own sensor", a sensor that is unique to the maker and that the maker has exclusive rights of use... The Nikon 16mp FF sensor for instance is another example of such a sensor... none other than Nikon can use it unless if he is licensed by Nikon to do so... Fuji is the same... Now, what process or premisses the maker chooses to accomplice the production, it's his own and it is a relation of cost efficiency and product quality...
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2014, 07:57:18 am »

Regarding the Phase One camera, a new body is a significant investment which IMO will not necessarily result in a significant increase in sales for Phase One, therefore it might not be at the top of the priority list...

JV,

I think they will upgrade their body again, they've done it before, to what degree is a different matter.
Phase remind me in many ways of Microsoft, with first class technological know how, superb business tactics and an unflinchingly realistic scheduling of priorities. Surely, the best business acumen translates into the best product for the customer?

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 09:04:37 am by eronald »
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2014, 09:40:22 am »

I was wondering two (2) things...

1. Why every discussion in this site has to turn about P1 no matter the subject...
2. Why none answers on when Leaf (although many Phase/Leaf people are active members) will introduce their version of MFDB with the new sensor...

Lets face it... P1 is in trouble for three (additional) reasons which are 3xTHE PRICE... 1. D810... 2.PENTAX 645Z.... 3. Hass-V owners are OFF their list of customers...

Lets face it for good this time... Unless MF makers turn their designs to where MF (traditionally) excels... (Multishot, view/tech camera compatibility, simplicity, applying to the basics, modularity and modular compatibility... etc).  THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR THEM... Ask me why I'll NEVER change my Imacon 528c (fully adapted on a Contax 645 & a Fuji DX680 system) for "modern" crap... I've got 100 reasons to explain...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 10:53:47 am by Theodoros »
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #75 on: July 30, 2014, 09:50:41 am »

I was wondering two (2) things...

1. Why every discussion in this site has to turn about P1 no matter the subject...
2. Why none answers on when Leaf (although many Phase/Leaf people are active members) will introduce their version of MFDB with the new sensor...

Lets face it... P1 is in trouble for three (additional) reasons which are 3xTHE PRICE... 1. D810... 2.PENTAX 645Z.... 3. Hass-V owners are OFF their list of customers...


Theodoros,
1. I guess the Hasselblad users are poor, so they are off taking pictures with their obsolete cameras rather than dreaming about new gear.
2. Leaf? is that a brand or a company? I'm not really sure anymore.

We have no reason to think P1 are in trouble, you are starting a silly rumor here, and anyway price doesn't matter to their customer base, the shoddy D810 image quality does not compare to a medium format back, the Pentax does not really compare to the Phase kit because it does not contain a gravitronic image engine, and any Hasselblad V owner who thinks that a 50 year old camera design and a square image format may still be relevant today is probably living in a gated community in Florida.

Summer is the silly season :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 09:54:01 am by eronald »
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #76 on: July 30, 2014, 10:16:18 am »

Theodoros,
1. I guess the Hasselblad users are poor, so they are off taking pictures with their obsolete cameras rather than dreaming about new gear.
2. Leaf? is that a brand or a company? I'm not really sure anymore.

We have no reason to think P1 are in trouble, you are starting a silly rumor here, and anyway price doesn't matter to their customer base, the shoddy D810 image quality does not compare to a medium format back, the Pentax does not really compare to the Phase kit because it does not contain a gravitronic image engine, and any Hasselblad V owner who thinks that a 50 year old camera design and a square image format may still be relevant today is probably living in a gated community in Florida.

Summer is the silly season :)

Edmund
I don't see the relevance of your reply to my post, but again I was typing an edit while you was quoting... My (final) post is clearly on MFD's (not only P1) ability to survive ...being off its (traditional) purpose!
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #77 on: July 30, 2014, 10:20:47 am »

I don't see the relevance of your reply to my post, but again I was typing an edit while you was quoting... My (final) post is clearly on MFD's (not only P1) ability to survive ...being off its (traditional) purpose!



Theodoros,

 I was just trying to be funny. As I pointed out, summer is the silly season. :)

 We often get caught up answering a post  while it is being edited.

 But all your added remarks are pertinent. I just cannot be bothered editing my humoristic reply. By the way (hint) what I always loved most about MF was the look of the Zeiss lenses on my V, and the square format. Unfortunately neither of these features I liked seem to correspond to the wishes of many other MF users, at least in the eyes of the companies who make stuff.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 10:31:17 am by eronald »
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #78 on: July 30, 2014, 12:24:43 pm »


Theodoros,

 I was just trying to be funny. As I pointed out, summer is the silly season. :)

 We often get caught up answering a post  while it is being edited.

 But all your added remarks are pertinent. I just cannot be bothered editing my humoristic reply. By the way (hint) what I always loved most about MF was the look of the Zeiss lenses on my V, and the square format. Unfortunately neither of these features I liked seem to correspond to the wishes of many other MF users, at least in the eyes of the companies who make stuff.

Edmund

In my view "summer" may mean less posts or less participation... but there is no explanation why it should mean less or meaningless communication...   :P
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #79 on: July 30, 2014, 02:11:10 pm »

In my view "summer" may mean less posts or less participation... but there is no explanation why it should mean less or meaningless communication...   :P


I blame the heat for my stupidity, and my camera for the bad pictures :P

Edmund
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