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Author Topic: Hasselblad CFV50c  (Read 45423 times)

eronald

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2014, 08:34:12 am »

Hi,

Yes, of course! The question is if they are going to pay for it?!

Best regards
Erik



But of course - we will soon have flexible 8x10 sensors made on LCD lines :)

By the time Doug and Steve's kids have finished Harvard Law ..

BTW, a Pentax 645D costs 5K in Europe now, new - maybe Pentax and Hassy should get together ...Hassy seems to have all the leaf shutter lenses which Pentax lacks :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 08:56:53 am by eronald »
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tjv

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Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2014, 05:56:43 pm »

Thanks, Anders.
Colour accuracy is very important too, so I best do my own tests.
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2014, 12:44:15 pm »

Another thing I missed until now is that the CCD version CFV-50 (49x37mm) has been discontinued. This is interesting, as the H5D-50 (same sensor) still is in the line. It shall be interesting to see what happens in the second hand market. CFV backs have had good value thanks to the V-system look/nostalgia.
It seems Hassy pays more intention on the fashion/aesthetics than to address at photographer's way of thinking... The Lunar project is a proof...
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tjv

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2014, 10:18:53 pm »

Strange thing to say considering this is something V owners have asked for and many thought the chances of an updated cfv back was next to none. Plus the H5D series of cameras is very much photographer orientated, made to use and not look at...
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2014, 01:47:35 am »

Whilst I would not attempt to defend the Lunar etc, much as I would not defend the Leica "specials" or the Nikon colour range in compacts, other than they may make sense economically Hasselblad has innovated with True Focus and the H series has evolved progressively since its introduction. Don't forget that although digital was on the horizon the H was designed in an analog era well over ten years ago and in its functions and ability to customise and retain profiles was ahead of its time.
Not being a fan boy here, that camera has issues, but to support a camera platform,V, no longer made from which only ongoing repair and salvage can provide an income must be applauded surely? What the CFVc back introduction has to do with "fashion and aesthetics" other than the back being an aesthetic match to the legacy body leaves me baffled.
It is a fact that for some people whatever a particular manufacturer dose it will never be "right" and the need to share that is apparently overwhelming.


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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2014, 03:17:22 am »

Strange thing to say considering this is something V owners have asked for and many thought the chances of an updated cfv back was next to none. Plus the H5D series of cameras is very much photographer orientated, made to use and not look at...
My opinion is that Hassy of the last decade is anything but "photography oriented"... they stopped making the CFs and replaced them with the CFVs for no reason (other than blocking other camera owners to have a back of their own), they stopped making MS backs that will work on existing systems, they closed the system so that one can't upgrade his back, they even made an open body (the h4x) that can't be equipped with a back of their own... Then, there is the Lunar "project"... and now, they totally blew it... they could have made this one a CF... but no! H4x, Contax or other camera owners can look at the raised middle finger... The back has to "look" right for the V system and for that only... As if the back was a CF (adaptable to many cameras) the V owners would care much for the (slight) difference on aesthetics... After all, they never cared for V owners to have a real WA solution... did they?
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2014, 05:39:34 am »

My opinion is that Hassy of the last decade is anything but "photography oriented"... they stopped making the CFs and replaced them with the CFVs for no reason (other than blocking other camera owners to have a back of their own), they stopped making MS backs that will work on existing systems, they closed the system so that one can't upgrade his back, they even made an open body (the h4x) that can't be equipped with a back of their own... Then, there is the Lunar "project"... and now, they totally blew it... they could have made this one a CF... but no! H4x, Contax or other camera owners can look at the raised middle finger... The back has to "look" right for the V system and for that only... As if the back was a CF (adaptable to many cameras) the V owners would care much for the (slight) difference on aesthetics... After all, they never cared for V owners to have a real WA solution... did they?

There is something to what you say. A lot of exclusionary decisions, made for no good reason - the fact that the H4X does not take their own backs is ... strange. On the other hand Hassy's point of view seems to be that the mirror box is free when you buy a back box :)

Edmund
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gazwas

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2014, 06:27:26 am »

My opinion is that Hassy of the last decade is anything but "photography oriented"... they stopped making the CFs and replaced them with the CFVs for no reason (other than blocking other camera owners to have a back of their own), they stopped making MS backs that will work on existing systems, they closed the system so that one can't upgrade his back, they even made an open body (the h4x) that can't be equipped with a back of their own... Then, there is the Lunar "project"... and now, they totally blew it... they could have made this one a CF... but no! H4x, Contax or other camera owners can look at the raised middle finger... The back has to "look" right for the V system and for that only... As if the back was a CF (adaptable to many cameras) the V owners would care much for the (slight) difference on aesthetics... After all, they never cared for V owners to have a real WA solution... did they?

Hasselblad produced a system with the H series that offers amazing integration between lens, body and back that includes accuracy of focus, lens profiles and multi shot capability that to name but a few. To this day, IMO it still runs rings around ALL the competition and people still feel the need to moan about them closing their system.

Hasselblad never closed their system as they still allow backs in the right fitting from other manufacturers to use the H system. Upgrading is also no different that Phase as the cost between an H camera and IQ back are near identical. It's just that with the Hasselblad you get a H camera for free rather than £4-6K extra for a terribly overpriced relic.

Producing a new back with all the latest in chip technology for a camera system they no longer produce is a bold move they should be applauded for rather than criticised for its aesthetics. 
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torger

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2014, 06:53:26 am »

Development cost for this back should be really minimal. It's internals from H5D-50c and externals from CFV-50. They won't need to sell many to go around, so it's very low risk for them. A "why not?" type of product.
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2014, 06:55:48 am »

Why do you criticize Phase for delivering a vintage photographic experience? The commercial success of Phase clearly indicates that people do not want a modern camera with AF that actually works, and that gadgets such as a bright interchangeable viewfinder are considered unnecessary by the majority of users or at the very least the dealers who serve them. The customer is king, anyone who disagrees with his wishes is redundant.

Edmund

Hasselblad produced a system with the H series that offers amazing integration between lens, body and back that includes accuracy of focus, lens profiles and multi shot capability that to name but a few. To this day, IMO it still runs rings around ALL the competition and people still feel the need to moan about them closing their system.

Hasselblad never closed their system as they still allow backs in the right fitting from other manufacturers to use the H system. Upgrading is also no different that Phase as the cost between an H camera and IQ back are near identical. It's just that with the Hasselblad you get a H camera for free rather than £4-6K extra for a terribly overpriced relic.

Producing a new back with all the latest in chip technology for a camera system they no longer produce is a bold move they should be applauded for rather than criticised for its aesthetics.  
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 06:58:51 am by eronald »
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torger

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2014, 07:00:40 am »

Why do you criticize Phase for delivering a vintage photographic experience? The commercial success of Phase clearly indicates that people do not want a modern camera that actually works.

Edmund


:-))

Yes it's strange that it seems more successful to have a better back gui and worse camera body (phase) than the other way around (Hasselblad). Hasselblad's H bodies leaves more to be desired in terms of reliability though as far as I understand, but that's compared to dslrs not Phase.

It would be interesting to know how important tech cam sales are, because there phase backs with their better gui have a great advantage.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 07:02:35 am by torger »
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2014, 07:12:21 am »

:-))

Yes it's strange that it seems more successful to have a better back gui and worse camera body (phase) than the other way around (Hasselblad). Hasselblad's H bodies leaves more to be desired in terms of reliability though as far as I understand, but that's compared to dslrs not Phase.

It would be interesting to know how important tech cam sales are, because there phase backs with their better gui have a great advantage.

I think Phase have a different rigid "do-nothing" solid-block body for the high-margin institutional sales now (museums, aviation). If you don't need AF and don't need a finder, and indeed don't really need a camera, then yes the Phase system ergonomics and software integration are superior.

Pentax is going to deliver the much needed kick in the ass to the whole system; I think even institutions are going to wonder why the should pay 3x Pentax price for a Phase system.

Hassy are caught somewhere in the middle - just shows that having a decent product is not a key to economic wellbeing. BTW H5D40 is now 10K in Europe, and that is almost reasonable at only 2x the price of the Pentax 645D with the same sensor :(

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 07:15:56 am by eronald »
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JV

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2014, 07:45:51 am »

BTW H5D40 is now 10K in Europe, and that is almost reasonable at only 2x the price of the Pentax 645D with the same sensor :(

The H5d-40 is $13K now in the US.  Pretty good deal as far as I am concerned.  The promotion is valid till September 30th, 2014.

By that time we should also know what Hasselblad and competion have lined up for Photokina.

Hasselblad produced a system with the H series that offers amazing integration between lens, body and back that includes accuracy of focus, lens profiles and multi shot capability that to name but a few. To this day, IMO it still runs rings around ALL the competition and people still feel the need to moan about them closing their system.

+1.  

I think Phase have a different rigid "do-nothing" solid-block body for the high-margin institutional sales now (museums, aviation). If you don't need AF and don't need a finder, and indeed don't really need a camera, then yes the Phase system ergonomics and software integration are superior.

I was reading this review of the Fuji X-T1 yesterday.  The author, Zack Arias, is a professional photographer who sold his DSLRs in favor of Fuji but also shoots Phase One.  His view on the Phase One body:

The only reason I love my Phase is because of the image quality it produces. Otherwise, the Phase One camera body is a piece of crap and I hate it. Itís an old Mamiya 645 body with a few tweaks and a new badge slapped on the front. Itís a crap camera really. Oh how I hope and wish and pray and desire for the day Fuji gets back in the medium format game. I have begged and pleaded with them to make an X series medium format game changer. PLEASE!!!

http://dedpxl.com/fuji-x-t1-review-yep-its-a-fuji/

Pentax is going to deliver the much needed kick in the ass to the whole system; I think even institutions are going to wonder why the should pay 3x Pentax price for a Phase system.

Perhaps but not entirely convinced.  Sony and Fuji much more so than Pentax have the ability to do so IMO.  Not sure whether they would be interested in stepping in though.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 07:50:30 am by JV »
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2014, 07:54:16 am »

Zack likes his Fuji. I like my used Canon 1Ds3 which I bought specifically to use the 85/1.2 and 200/1.8. The camera is usable, the finder experience is good. As for the Phase, I hated every minute of using it, and there is no reason to use a camera you hate even if you love the files. The camera experience shows through in the images.

Edmund


The H5d-40 is $13K now in the US.  Pretty good deal as far as I am concerned.  The promotion is valid till September 30th, 2014.

By that time we should also know what Hasselblad and competion have lined up for Photokina.

+1.  

I was reading this review of the Fuji X-T1 yesterday.  The author, Zack Arias, is a professional photographer who sold his DSLRs in favor of Fuji but also shoots Phase One.  His view on the Phase One body:

The only reason I love my Phase is because of the image quality it produces. Otherwise, the Phase One camera body is a piece of crap and I hate it. Itís an old Mamiya 645 body with a few tweaks and a new badge slapped on the front. Itís a crap camera really. Oh how I hope and wish and pray and desire for the day Fuji gets back in the medium format game. I have begged and pleaded with them to make an X series medium format game changer. PLEASE!!!

http://dedpxl.com/fuji-x-t1-review-yep-its-a-fuji/

Perhaps but not entirely convinced.  Sony and Fuji much more so than Pentax have the ability to do so IMO.  Not sure whether they would be interested in stepping in though.

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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2014, 10:44:26 am »

I think Phase have a different rigid "do-nothing" solid-block body for the high-margin institutional sales now (museums, aviation). If you don't need AF and don't need a finder, and indeed don't really need a camera, then yes the Phase system ergonomics and software integration are superior.

Pentax is going to deliver the much needed kick in the ass to the whole system; I think even institutions are going to wonder why the should pay 3x Pentax price for a Phase system.

Hassy are caught somewhere in the middle - just shows that having a decent product is not a key to economic wellbeing. BTW H5D40 is now 10K in Europe, and that is almost reasonable at only 2x the price of the Pentax 645D with the same sensor :(

Edmund
The point is... that if Hass didn't make the stupid decision to close the system, if Imacon (under Hassy name) where still around... and if P1 wouldn't refuse to support the HY6 system... (in order to kill it)... then creative photography (view cameras, MS, tech cameras ..etc) would have advanced... ...but the "boys" we are talking about... they prefer bankruptcy! (In other words its a policy for some in those companies (that don't give a dime for photographers) ...to make a lot of money (through bankruptcy)!!!
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2014, 11:31:05 am »

Hi,

I agree with every word, well almost every wordÖ

On the other hand, it may be that we just had Hasselblad cameras and Phase backs.

Best regards
Erik

The point is... that if Hass didn't make the stupid decision to close the system, if Imacon (under Hassy name) where still around... and if P1 wouldn't refuse to support the HY6 system... (in order to kill it)... then creative photography (view cameras, MS, tech cameras ..etc) would have advanced... ...but the "boys" we are talking about... they prefer bankruptcy! (In other words its a policy for some in those companies (that don't give a dime for photographers) ...to make a lot of money (through bankruptcy)!!!

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jduncan

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2014, 01:27:06 pm »

There is something to what you say. A lot of exclusionary decisions, made for no good reason - the fact that the H4X does not take their own backs is ... strange. On the other hand Hassy's point of view seems to be that the mirror box is free when you buy a back box :)

Edmund

I don't see the exclusionary as a problem. What I hate is the inconsistency and bad communication patterns.  Phase one has now years working on the new camera,  is evident  that they were having a BIG free ride at the expense of Hasselblad. Of course, when Hasselblad stop letting them have  it  they mobilized the blogosphere that they own (not implying money)  against Hasselblad.

Something similar to what Adobe did when Aperture was introduced. It was a revolutionary (then)  software, but Adobe was working on a competitor.  The bloggers underscore all the weak points of Aperture,  but they never tell us that they were working with Adobe in the new product or in a thousand ways to monetize the the "Light room revolution".
Funny part is they underscore the proprietary nature of the library, that you will lose the images (really it was just right click and open package, the software will continue working). The same guys today justify or ignore Adobe creative suit subscription model. They don't care about people access to the pictures they own.

The same with Hassy:  True focus is a gimmick (its the only thing we have), and so many other things.  If Hasselblad dies after Photokina, they will have themselves to blame, mostly. In the other hand we have to accept that they are facing an unbalanced fight were nothing good they do get underscored but any error get amplified to Earth size proportions.  

Best regards,
J. Duncan
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2014, 03:00:35 pm »

The reason Phase are not yet selling a better camera is that they understand dealer margins are more important than R&D funding. They are better at business.

Phase don't owe you anything. If you don't like their product, you can drop it.  I sold my Phamiya, and don't regret it.

Hasselblad closed their system some years ago, and that was a business decision too, made a lot of their customers angry and caused some to leave, including Michael, I believe.

Edmund

I don't see the exclusionary as a problem. What I hate is the inconsistency and bad communication patterns.  Phase one has now years working on the new camera,  is evident  that they were having a BIG free ride at the expense of Hasselblad. Of course, when Hasselblad stop letting them have  it  they mobilized the blogosphere that they own (not implying money)  against Hasselblad.

Something similar to what Adobe did when Aperture was introduced. It was a revolutionary (then)  software, but Adobe was working on a competitor.  The bloggers underscore all the weak points of Aperture,  but they never tell us that they were working with Adobe in the new product or in a thousand ways to monetize the the "Light room revolution".
Funny part is they underscore the proprietary nature of the library, that you will lose the images (really it was just right click and open package, the software will continue working). The same guys today justify or ignore Adobe creative suit subscription model. They don't care about people access to the pictures they own.

The same with Hassy:  True focus is a gimmick (its the only thing we have), and so many other things.  If Hasselblad dies after Photokina, they will have themselves to blame, mostly. In the other hand we have to accept that they are facing an unbalanced fight were nothing good they do get underscored but any error get amplified to Earth size proportions.  

Best regards,
J. Duncan
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 03:12:57 pm by eronald »
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2014, 04:33:54 pm »

Never the less, one has to admit that the pricing exposes a lot of P1's pricing policy... I wonder how long it'll be before that Credo 50 will appear into the market... and the price of it!  ;) ...Obviously in Hasselblad they don't like their customers to have other maker  backs on their cameras, will they avoid Leaf too?
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad CFV50c
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2014, 04:45:38 pm »

Never the less, one has to admit that the pricing exposes a lot of P1's pricing policy... I wonder how long it'll be before that Credo 50 will appear into the market... and the price of it!  ;) ...Obviously in Hasselblad they don't like their customers to have other maker  backs on their cameras, will they avoid Leaf too?

The high P1 list pricing allows them to
1) set a substantially lower wholesale price and reward the dealers for prescribing P1, and make sure that dealers who sell P1 provide good service. Which is a good thing for customer and dealer alike, provided the customer can afford the spare cash.

2) create an incentive for P1 rental  as buying wholesale  is cheap and renting out is indexed on list. This can be good for everybody because it creates a lively rental market, albeit an expensive one.  

3) Make  money for their owners. This can mean the company sticks around and makes better products, although they are sold to the select few.

However although high list prices with good dealer margins can seem to be good business, they do create a tempting entry point for cheap competition and then they kill you because you and your channel have become bloated. I don't think MF dealers are enjoying the D810 release, even though they will tell you that the D810 does not compete with MF.

BTW, in some markets in some countries (of course not in the honest US), high priced products sell well to institutions because of paid-back buyer commissions, and high priced rentals also play well because they are settled by the customer who wants "the best" and then generate  paid back renter commissions.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 05:57:21 pm by eronald »
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