Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints  (Read 13981 times)

DaniArt

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« on: May 22, 2014, 09:30:13 am »

Hi All :)

Long time lurker here, finally signed up to post.

I'll jump right in...

I'm an artist who works with a gallery, and I print B+W digital art on matte fine art paper. I currently use the Epson 2880, but it's a bit too small, and I'm in need of an upgrade. I know many of you have the Canon ipf6400 and love that it's hassle free mostly, but there have been some complaints about sheet feeding and the overall quality of the print lacking when compared to the Epson.

I guess I'd just like a few opinions... Is the ipf6400 a good choice for 24" B+W gallery prints on matte paper? Does anyone have experience with this combo (a non gloss paper, and b+w together)?

(Also, I should note that the Epson I use now does not work well with matte paper at ALL. The darker the gray/black on the paper, the grainier the image (and I work with really good photos)).


Thanks in advance!
Dan

Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2014, 09:32:16 am »

Get an old 24" Epson (9600, 9800 or 9880 will all do nicely) and run either MIS Eboni inks or Piezography inks through them.
Logged

dseelig

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 596
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2014, 10:33:40 am »

for me I had the epson 7600 . I went to a hp z3100 much better and it profiles papers. ink heads can be replace cheaply and it sips ink where as the epson 7600 is like a vampire . I would go for the newer z 3200 but the 3100 has been great for me . Also no special inks needed for B&W very neutral.
Logged

PeterAit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4559
    • Peter Aitken Photographs
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2014, 10:36:48 am »

Get an old 24" Epson (9600, 9800 or 9880 will all do nicely) and run either MIS Eboni inks or Piezography inks through them.

Those are 44" printers, but the general idea is a good one.
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2014, 10:51:16 am »

Replace '9' with '7'...

Still, a second-hand 9800 will cost less than a new 7900 or 7890.
Logged

chez

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2501
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2014, 11:58:36 am »

for me I had the epson 7600 . I went to a hp z3100 much better and it profiles papers. ink heads can be replace cheaply and it sips ink where as the epson 7600 is like a vampire . I would go for the newer z 3200 but the 3100 has been great for me . Also no special inks needed for B&W very neutral.

The 3100 is better at B&W than the 3200.

That said, I have both a Z3100 and a converted Epson 3880 to Piezography and I would recommend going the Piezography route if I wanted a dedicated B&W printer. The range of tones you get out of a Piezography system is amazing, especially on matte papers.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 12:00:33 pm by chez »
Logged

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2014, 12:43:27 pm »

MIS Eboni will give more neutral tones than Piezography Carbon on matte paper. But it can't print on glossy.
Logged

dseelig

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 596
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2014, 03:55:51 pm »

The 3100 is better then the 3200 at Black and white seems odd same inks but if you have used both you would know. I have had very bad luck with 3 rd party inks has anyone used these inks pizeo or MIS and had trouble?
Logged

DaniArt

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2014, 04:00:36 pm »

You guys are awesome, thank you so much for the informative replies.

How'd I forget about the HP printers? Duly noted that the 3100 is better for black and white. Does it make a difference that the "tone" I prefer in my black and whites is more reminiscent of a pencil portrait? A little cooler, not as warm I guess...
Logged

Ernst Dinkla

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4005
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2014, 04:56:42 am »

You guys are awesome, thank you so much for the informative replies.

How'd I forget about the HP printers? Duly noted that the 3100 is better for black and white. Does it make a difference that the "tone" I prefer in my black and whites is more reminiscent of a pencil portrait? A little cooler, not as warm I guess...

The PK, Gray + Light Gray inks of the Z3100-Z3200 are neutral if not a bit cool on some papers. The Matte Black ink warmer than that but there are media preset choices for matte papers that use all four inks (Quad) and the somewhat warmer MK is then used dense enough that it is no issue. Both in the B&W mode and the color mode a greyscale or neutral RGB image will only use the (MK), PK, Gray, Light Gray inks. In the B&W mode you can add the color ink toning with the Advanced settings in the driver. Printing from Qimage Ultimate I prefer color mode in the driver for color toning greyscale files with custom QU filters, gives better visual feedback and nothing changes the (16 bit) file itself. There is more to it.

The Z3100 is basically more linear than the Z3200 and can achieve better Dmax (at least with the media presets I tried). A good starting point to build extra linearity + QTR B&W profiling on top. A secondhand Z3100 24" will not be expensive but should have a new belt. It adds the gloss enhancer for gloss work. Be aware that if your prints are 90% B&W you still have to load the other 7 inks and half the heads will not be used much which may be costly in maintenance etc.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

Logged

Ken Doo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1079
    • Carmel Fine Art Printing & Reproduction
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2014, 08:17:06 am »

If interested in printing only fine art B&W images, I strongly suggest a Piezography solution.

 :)

shadowblade

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2839
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2014, 08:57:34 am »

You guys are awesome, thank you so much for the informative replies.

How'd I forget about the HP printers? Duly noted that the 3100 is better for black and white. Does it make a difference that the "tone" I prefer in my black and whites is more reminiscent of a pencil portrait? A little cooler, not as warm I guess...

If you only want to print black-and-white, you want either MIS Eboni or Piezography. No colour inkset can even come close in terms of tonal range, detail and longevity.

I'd suggest the pure carbon options - the MIS EB6 inkset or Piezography Carbon. These use exactly the same pigment as found in a pencil portrait - pure carbon/graphite - and will never fade. You can display them in direct sunlight, or even outdoors (as long as they're protected from wind, rain, etc.). There are other non-pure-carbon inksets within the MIS and Piezography lineups, but these have a tendency to fade towards a nasty green hue, sometimes relatively quickly.

EB6 is more-or-less neutral, with a slight hint of warmth - very similar in tone to pencil on drawing paper. How warm or cool it appears depends mostly on what paper you use. Piezography Carbon is warmer - perhaps a third of the way between true neutral and a sepia-toned print - but can print on glossy paper.

That said, if you must stick to an OEM solution, black-and-white output using HP's ABW mode is better than that of Epson or Canon. But it won't be nearly as good as a dedicated black-and-white system and will be more expensive to set up (since you can run MIS/Piezography using older printers just as well as newer models) and to run (cheaper ink).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 02:13:41 pm by shadowblade »
Logged

Roscolo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 733
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2014, 11:05:08 am »

The best bang for your buck will be the HP z3100. I have one I use exclusively for B&W printing. Outstanding results.
Logged

brianrybolt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 625
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2014, 01:14:55 pm »

+1

Great printer for B/W.  Get a belt as Ernst says.

AFairley

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1486
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2014, 11:28:08 am »

Giclee....  Really???
Logged

MHMG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1285
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2014, 05:03:28 pm »

If you only want to print black-and-white, you want either MIS Eboni or Piezography. No colour inkset can even come close in terms of tonal range, detail and longevity.

This statement needs to be qualified somewhat. The Piezography "Carbon Sepia" and the more recent "Carbon K7" sets are indeed full carbon pigment ink sets, and as such they are more lightfast than OEM color sets even when the OEM inks are run in full grayscale or "advanced B&W" modes. But the OEM B&W modes are significantly more lightfast than other Piezography shades like "selenium", "neutral", "warm" etc., on just about any media. The Piezography full carbon pigment is considerably warmer than the MIS Eboni full carbon on most media, so Cone achieves his more neutral Piezography shades by blending cyan and magenta pigments into the mix. The magenta drops out first, causing the print to eventually turn more greenish-gray in appearance. Greenish-gray tones in  B&W prints are not a visually acceptable outcome for most folks. The light fade resistance of the cooler Piezography shades is therefore only moderate at best and also more sensitive to choice of media as well when compared to B&W prints made using OEM inks and OEM driver settings.

That said, as long as the print collector knows that not all Piezography prints are highly lightfast and therefore takes care in choosing illumination levels and/or managing the time on display, then the more conservative display policies will allow the more neutral toned Piezography prints to last many generations before noticeably turning more greenish gray. Failure to implement smart illumination/display policies for the cooler toned Piezography ink sets will indeed result in greenish-gray prints more than likely within one's own lifetime.

 
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 05:29:04 pm by MHMG »
Logged

PeterAit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4559
    • Peter Aitken Photographs
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2014, 01:04:05 pm »

Giclee....  Really???

Why, sure! Don't you know that if you call a print "giclee" instead of "inkjet" you can charge twice as much? LOL!
Logged

Some Guy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 729
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2014, 03:40:48 pm »

Question is if you do go to the Canon, can you use any optional B&W inks in it?  When I was looking at the Canon ipf6450, the sales guy said no refillable inks where able to be used in it other than the Canon inks.  I was wanting for for dye-sub ink, but that idea got scratched too.  I dunno, but the Canon might leave you out of the Piezeo or MIS ink field over the ever-clogging Epsons.  Different inks.

My understanding is the MIS inks are actually a colored ink close to what was pulled from the printer, whereas the Piezeos are more shades of black with small traces of color added for the tint.  Hence the two are not compatible as easily in some print programs where the OEM driver is called in (MIS Ebonies may be more forgiving there?).

One thing I have noticed is that between a RIP like QTR, and software like Qimage Ulitmate, QTR isn't sharp at all over Qimage's sharpness.  Wish the Qimage guy would make a B&W RIP program and incorporate whatever sharpness algorithm he uses in it.

SG
Logged

Paul Roark

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 398
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2014, 10:05:27 pm »

MIS sells a number of different inksets, including some color ones.  MIS's "Eboni-6" is 100% carbon pigment.  On a paper like Epson Hot Press Natural it will give you a quite neutral image.  On some papers it'll be warmer.  I also print with it on Arches watercolor (uncoated) paper.  I've written up the setup I use at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHP-2013.pdf .  I have links there to profiles and the MIS (aka inksupply.com) sources.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Logged

Ernst Dinkla

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4005
Re: Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2014, 03:36:48 am »

Question is if you do go to the Canon, can you use any optional B&W inks in it?  When I was looking at the Canon ipf6450, the sales guy said no refillable inks where able to be used in it other than the Canon inks.  I was wanting for for dye-sub ink, but that idea got scratched too.  I dunno, but the Canon might leave you out of the Piezeo or MIS ink field over the ever-clogging Epsons.  Different inks.


One thing I have noticed is that between a RIP like QTR, and software like Qimage Ulitmate, QTR isn't sharp at all over Qimage's sharpness.  Wish the Qimage guy would make a B&W RIP program and incorporate whatever sharpness algorithm he uses in it.

SG


For thermal head printers like the Canon iPF and Z models it should be possible to load them with Vivera MK + PK + PK dilutions. Several Canon iPF CAD models have just 6 channels, two of them are used for MK though and there is a two component chemistry between MK and Cyan ink on matte papers one has to cope with. Photoshop curves can be used for partitioning the quad/pentatone inkset then. The Photoshop curves + QTR linearisation can be casted in an ICC B&W profile for the combination of the Canon driver + Qimage Ultimate. There is an HP Officejet 4 channel printer on my desk here that has that approach and works for several years now. The only thing needed is someone with the courage to go that route on a larger machine whether HP or Canon. The 4/6 picoliter Z2100 etc 8 channel models, the 4 picoliter D120 etc 6 channel models are candidates too.

QTR on Windows should get the form factor of a normal Windows printer driver and still keep its RIP versatility. In that case you can use Qimage Ultimate or any application that uses normal Windows printer drivers for printing. The open source character of QTR could be used by any smart developer to get there, QTR Gui was also made that way.

There is way more possible than what we have already in open source, DIY and third party B&W solutions but few dare to go these routes.


--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.






Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up