Best 24" printer for B+W gallery quality giclee prints

[deanwork]

Ernst,

Do you know anyone who has tried to dilute the Vivera set and put them in a Z printer with something like 6 or 7 gray channels plus pleny of super stable vivera color inks for toning? Now this would be the Ultimate solution for  permanence and beauty of neutralized rendering with superior dmax as well.

I'm still thinking about doing it if I can ever afford to do without my Z for color. I'm considering a Z3200 just for color and convert my 3100 to that. I still like to have that option for color. Studio Print supports the Z for this partitioning. It's just a matter of mixing the inks from the light gray channel. HP could have created such a killer monochrome machine but they don't care. I hope we'll have access to these inks and parts for awhile longer. They are still selling the 3200.

How many years do they have to make parts and inks available after discontinuing a model? This is really a great printer for such a light weight little thing.

The bw prints out of TBW on the Cannons use only three shades of gray and are more neutral than the Z on fiber gloss media or matt media without slight toning necessary, and with better surface smoothness on the papers I use. TBW allows you to linearize much more effectively. Trying to use the Canon driver for bw sucks.

john

[Ernst Dinkla]

John,

No, I do not know someone who did that. As written I have done it on an HP Officejet with thermal heads. I did advise someone in Belgium to use a similar inkset (HP Vivera pigment + EU ink medium) on an Epson R3000 to make it easier than imports of quad inks from the US and it worked well. I would not be afraid to do so with a Z2100 or a similar model if and that is a big IF there was a reliable alternative cart chip solution to make refilling possible. I have tried and the solutions are not reliable in my experience. Not on the Z3100/Z3200/B9180. For one reason or another the printer starts complaining, goes on strike too often. The choices in smaller droplet size HP Designjets are limited too. The ink buffers in HP and Canon heads are something you have to deal with too, it takes more ink before the quad inks are free of traces of the old inks. Epsons have less buffer there (so have to keep more ink in empty carts :-)

TBW on the Canons should be extended to the Canon iPF CAD models like the iPF640.  I asked the Bowhaus boys, never got an answer. They could make fine custom quad models, 6 channel, 4 picoliter droplet and it would not surprise me if one could load Vivera inks as well. 12 channel models solely used for B&W work is over the top in my opinion.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

[shadowblade]

I haven't seen anyone diluting HP inks into more fractions, but I've seen one better - mixing HP inks into MIS Eboni carbon inks to neutralise and/or tone them.

[deanwork]

There are a couple of companies that make clones of the Vivera carts - http://www.aliexpress.com/item/large-format-ink-cartridge-hp70-for-hp-designjet-Z3100-Z3100PS-Z3200-Z3200PS-with-chips/1418497881.html

How you fill them I have no idea. They are doing it with their 3rd party inks and have done that for several years now.

I'm not sure what you are saying about the droplet size though with the HP driver. You are saying the various color channels have different droplet sizes?  Studio Print does support these printers and has a lot of control over how the ink is delivered. That is the way I would do it, if I ever do it. It would be a monochrome printer only.

When compared to K7 there is a significant difference in the dimensionality of the tonal distribution across the spectrum.  High values do need more very light grays for finest results.

As to mixing Vivera with Ebony K6 what I would be very concerned about is pigment separation both in the carts and in the printer heads and lines. That sounds dangerous to me, but it could be beautiful. It's a lot easier to pull off in a small desktop unit than a 44" large format. My problem with that would be using Epson printers again. I'm just sick of them. Even my 9890 which is only two years old has dropped a channel. If I were doing color with it I'd be screwed.

John

[shadowblade]

As to mixing Vivera with Ebony K6 what I would be very concerned about is pigment separation both in the carts and in the printer heads and lines. That sounds dangerous to me, but it could be beautiful. It's a lot easier to pull off in a small desktop unit than a 44" large format. My problem with that would be using Epson printers again. I'm just sick of them. Even my 9890 which is only two years old has dropped a channel. If I were doing color with it I'd be screwed.

John

I believe Paul Roark has been doing it with success.

[Paul Roark]

By the way, if you're printing your own B&W images, I would not insult them by using the nonsense (BS) term "giclee."    I'm very proud to call my B&W prints carbon pigment prints.

Take a look at page 2 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf for a brief summary of some fade test data compiled from Mark's excellent work at http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ .  You'll see why I don't want to hide behind some marketing term.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

 

[deanwork]

These Ebony fade tests from a couple of year ago are for a tri-tone ink formulation. Is there any test for a 6 channel Ebony ink set? I see a lot of the problems occurring in the lighter value blends in some of the other inks tested.

[chez]

By the way, if you're printing your own B&W images, I would not insult them by using the nonsense (BS) term "giclee."    I'm very proud to call my B&W prints carbon pigment prints.

Take a look at page 2 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf for a brief summary of some fade test data compiled from Mark's excellent work at http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ .  You'll see why I don't want to hide behind some marketing term.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

 I find the words carbon pigment prints just as gimmicky as giclee, both are just marketing terms which the general public have zero knowledge about. What's wrong with B&W photographs?

[Ernst Dinkla]

I haven't seen anyone diluting HP inks into more fractions, but I've seen one better - mixing HP inks into MIS Eboni carbon inks to neutralise and/or tone them.

About four years ago Paul Roark mentioned the possibility to dilute Vivera PK ink for use in Epson printers, something I considered too at that time. This was discussed in the Digital B&W The Print forum. Paul then used a MIS ink medium to make that possible on piëzo printers. Some years ago I did the same for the first time for an HP thermal head printer with an OCP ink medium for thermal heads.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

[Ernst Dinkla]

There are a couple of companies that make clones of the Vivera carts - http://www.aliexpress.com/item/large-format-ink-cartridge-hp70-for-hp-designjet-Z3100-Z3100PS-Z3200-Z3200PS-with-chips/1418497881.html

How you fill them I have no idea. They are doing it with their 3rd party inks and have done that for several years now.

I'm not sure what you are saying about the droplet size though with the HP driver. You are saying the various color channels have different droplet sizes?  Studio Print does support these printers and has a lot of control over how the ink is delivered. That is the way I would do it, if I ever do it. It would be a monochrome printer only.

When compared to K7 there is a significant difference in the dimensionality of the tonal distribution across the spectrum.  High values do need more very light grays for finest results.

As to mixing Vivera with Ebony K6 what I would be very concerned about is pigment separation both in the carts and in the printer heads and lines. That sounds dangerous to me, but it could be beautiful. It's a lot easier to pull off in a small desktop unit than a 44" large format. My problem with that would be using Epson printers again. I'm just sick of them. Even my 9890 which is only two years old has dropped a channel. If I were doing color with it I'd be screwed.

John

 I tried separate PCBs that intercept the signals from the main board to the cart chips, the cart chips play no role then. It worked for some weeks. Had two sets, in total four. Used them on both the Z3100 and Z3200, it was a disaster. The Chinese company didn't reply when I complained. The intention was not to abandon HP Vivera inks on the printers but to be able to use ink from bigger Vivera carts, have no printer complaints about expired inks and as a trial for a shift to custom B&W inks. I used the original carts. Third party carts for Z models are usually aiming at 8 channel models like the Z2100. I have refillable carts on a B9180, same inks, chip trouble and I think the printer would work better with carts that have the membrane pump like the HP originals have. The refillable carts on the HP Officejet actually work well despite the absence of pumps.

The HP Z models have channels with fixed size 4 and 6 picoliter droplets. Comparing the 8 channel models with the 12 channel models the MK channel on the Z3200 is 4 pl while it is 6 pl on the Z2100. Z3200 Magenta + Yellow is 6 pl, Blue + Green is 6 pl the rest 4pl.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

[deanwork]

Thanks Ernst. I think I will not go there. Sounds horrific.

john

[shadowblade]

These Ebony fade tests from a couple of year ago are for a tri-tone ink formulation. Is there any test for a 6 channel Ebony ink set? I see a lot of the problems occurring in the lighter value blends in some of the other inks tested.

If it's 100% carbon, it's not going to fade regardless of how much you dilute it - I think the tests with Piezography Carbon, and the fact that carbon scores a 9 or 'off the chart' on the Blue Wool scale, have made that pretty clear.

[deanwork]

If they are 100% carbon, and I don't doubt they are, I still wonder why why Cone's K7 carbon is quite a bit warmer, while the Ebony is a warm-neutral hue. I never found the answer to that. What could be causing that difference in degree of warmness?

The two tests up there of the Piezography K6 and Quad sepia inks that have reached 200 megalux are very slightly better than the Ebony at 180 megalux but it's not enough to even consider, at that degree of exposure, especially since one of each of those tests were not even using a uv coat. And they both beat anything else tested in the inkjet world and show no visible signs of change.

j

[Ernst Dinkla]

Size of the carbon particles can make a color difference and the way the carbon particle is created resulting in different surface to weight/volume ratios.

http://www.cabot-corp.com/wcm/download/en-us/ij/Pigments%20for%20Inkjet.pdf

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

[DaniArt]

Wow, lots of new replies and new info! Duly noted to all.

Shot in the dark question here (hope someone can help):

Any chance anyone know a company who'll let me, um, lease the Canon as opposed to outright buying it? I know, unheard of for an individual... they do it for companies all the time, but for some reason I can't find one who'll work with me on this.

[Paul Roark]

Regarding Eboni-6 and diluting HP Z3200 PK, I use this combination in an Epson 7800 and have used them in other printers for quite a few years now.  For the 7800 setup, see http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/7800-EbHP-2013.pdf

Eb6 has not been formally tested in its full dilute form, but with carbon pigments in general, dilution does not impact its lightfastness.  I did analyze the http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/ test of Jon's carbon set with this in mind and posted the results in the appendix (last page) of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf .  (Frankly, the concern about dilute inks doing worse on fade tests seems to come from the old style dyes.  Even Claria light inks hold up essentially as well as the darker versions.)  Carbon is such a solid pigment for high end B&W, it seems odd to me that more serious B&W photographers are not using it.  It's  their loss.  When you also consider how well Eboni-6 can print on Arches (uncoated) Hot Press (or Cold Press) watercolor paper, thus avoiding the coating weaknesses, the inkset is rather compelling. 

As to the HP PK, I use the generic dilution base version C6b for diluting it for Epson printers.  MIS sells this pre-mixed at  http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm .

(Don't use version C6a, it was for the 7500 only.  BTW, I make no money on all of these mixes that MIS commercializes.  I have used these bases for years with never any negative issues.  The formulas are all published and open.  The one warning I'd make for those mixing from scratch is to use fresh distilled water and 99.7% glycerol.)

Back to the HP PK, note that the HP pigment inks print well in all the Epson printers I've tested them in.  (That does not include the 3880.)  The OEM HP Gray and light gray are a bit cooler than the PK-diluted versions.

I would not mix the Eb6 and HP pigments in a single ink.  Different electrostatic coatings on different pigment types can accelerate separation.  I avoid any mixing of different pigments within a single ink when the target is wide format.  The inks mixing on the parking pad is not a problem.  They are compatible, but presumably have different electrostatic signatures in the suspension. 

(I have not tested an Eb6 - HP blend in a single ink.  My experience/conclusions come from years of mixing and testing MIS and other companies' carbon + color blends for neutral B&W desktop printer inksets, where the movement of the ink carts with the head assembly avoids the separation issues with continuous agitation.  Note that my "generic" base formula is very specifically made to avoid incompatibilities, and it does so very well.  Note also that in a centrifuge test of settlement rate, the HP dilution with the generic base settles more slowly than the OEM HP Gray -- no magic, just slightly higher viscosity.)

Hope this is useful.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/

[Some Guy]

Wow, lots of new replies and new info! Duly noted to all.

Shot in the dark question here (hope someone can help):

Any chance anyone know a company who'll let me, um, lease the Canon as opposed to outright buying it? I know, unheard of for an individual... they do it for companies all the time, but for some reason I can't find one who'll work with me on this.

Little late to answer this, but local Canon printer or office machine sales might hold the answer.

However, the lease can be twice that of the machine.  Local camera shop had a large Epson that clogged up over a holiday.  They took it in for service and it needed about $2,400 in parts, and some parts were no longer made so the owner got a Canon ipF8400 on a $160/mo. lease for 6 years as a replacement.  The shop sold again and the new owner was upset with the lease.  I was going to take it over until I found they still wanted to charge the full lease payment on a one year old machine.  New one was half that on sale.  Weird, but all the old shop owner saw was "Cheap monthly payments" no matter if it was double the price.  New shop owner bought an Epson 9900 too and told "Canon to come and get the leased one."  Sounds like the leasing company is going after the original owner who signed the lease too.

It was some independent lease company and not Canon too.

SG

[Phil Indeblanc]

My problem with that would be using Epson printers again. I'm just sick of them. Even my 9890 which is only two years old has dropped a channel. If I were doing color with it I'd be screwed.

John

I agree and have dropped them long ago. They never have tackled the issues from a fresh and different hardware perspective, only random cleaning checks.
I won't buy and Epson until that is handled.

[Iluvmycam]

The 3100 is better at B&W than the 3200.

That said, I have both a Z3100 and a converted Epson 3880 to Piezography and I would recommend going the Piezography route if I wanted a dedicated B&W printer. The range of tones you get out of a Piezography system is amazing, especially on matte papers.

When you run Piezography inks through the Epson does it give error messages?

[Iluvmycam]

If you only want to print black-and-white, you want either MIS Eboni or Piezography. No colour inkset can even come close in terms of tonal range, detail and longevity.

I'd suggest the pure carbon options - the MIS EB6 inkset or Piezography Carbon. These use exactly the same pigment as found in a pencil portrait - pure carbon/graphite - and will never fade. You can display them in direct sunlight, or even outdoors (as long as they're protected from wind, rain, etc.). There are other non-pure-carbon inksets within the MIS and Piezography lineups, but these have a tendency to fade towards a nasty green hue, sometimes relatively quickly.

EB6 is more-or-less neutral, with a slight hint of warmth - very similar in tone to pencil on drawing paper. How warm or cool it appears depends mostly on what paper you use. Piezography Carbon is warmer - perhaps a third of the way between true neutral and a sepia-toned print - but can print on glossy paper.

That said, if you must stick to an OEM solution, black-and-white output using HP's ABW mode is better than that of Epson or Canon. But it won't be nearly as good as a dedicated black-and-white system and will be more expensive to set up (since you can run MIS/Piezography using older printers just as well as newer models) and to run (cheaper ink).

Does Piezography matte black smudge more than Epson pigment inks?