Pentax 645Z

[JV]

To me, it seems pretty straightforward that you can buy (3) $8,500 Pentax 645Z cameras and still have some spare change left over vs. buying (1) IQ250 1-lens system...

At $34,990 for the IQ250 you can actually buy 4 Pentax 645Z cameras... and you get a modern body...

Even if Phase One delivers the perfect new body with Photokina, there simply is no justification whatsoever for the price difference.

[eronald]

At $34,990 for the IQ250 you can actually buy 4 Pentax 645Z cameras... and you get a modern body...

Even if Phase One delivers the perfect new body with Photokina, there simply is no justification whatsoever for the price difference.

Once enough pros go over to the Pentax camp the Phase "aura" will be gone, and then Phase will be stuck competing against a product which may well be better at a quarter of their price ...

Edmund

[MrSmith]

Uk price for phase 645df body £4475 (comes with free strap)
Uk price for 645z body £5665 (comes with free 50mp sensor)

so a sony 50mp sensor only costs £1000? (allowing a little bit for an up to date AF, weather sealing etc)

you would think with the the growth in sales after 2009 plus all that venture capital investment not to mention the serious profit margins there must be with a £1k sensor mated to warmed over camera/back technology (remind if usb3 works yet??) selling for 30k that phase must have a serious all singing and dancing camera body waiting in the wings?

[Harold Clark]

Once enough pros go over to the Pentax camp the Phase "aura" will be gone, and then Phase will be stuck competing against a product which may well be better at a quarter of their price ...

Edmund

It would be really great if Pentax would produce a separate digital back as well.

[DanielStone]

At $34,990 for the IQ250 you can actually buy 4 Pentax 645Z cameras... and you get a modern body...

Even if Phase One delivers the perfect new body with Photokina, there simply is no justification whatsoever for the price difference.

$35k vs $8.5k:
I know, but I was also factoring in(with the "spare change" difference in money) a few lenses being purchased, like the 25/f4, etc..
Also, depending on what state you reside in, sales tax(usually 7-10%). I'm just glad I don't(currently) live in the EU, with VAT added to pretty much everything

To me, the "perfect"(or as close to it) MFD body is the Hy6 Mod2. I wish P1 would offer their backs in that mount. Basically a modernized Hasselblad V system IMO, with a motor winder and autofocus. Oh, and those sexy-as-hell-bitingly-sharp Schneider lenses... And don't get me started on that super comfortable articulating hand grip...

I wish Pentax/Ricoh much success with this new model, looking at the specs and their marketing campaign to date, I think they're pushing hard for this to become a major player in the pro scene worldwide, not just in the home market of landscape shooters.

-Dan

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Long faces in the Phase and Blad canteens.

Hi Keith,

Not necessarily. This is a great opportunity for Phase One / Hasselblad to demonstrate the differences in equipment/lens line-up, services, support network when on the road, upgrade programs, Raw conversion quality, etc.. A digital back is more than just a sensor.

Cheers,
Bart

[Pics2]

That's right Bart. And I'm not going to replace my IQ160 with Pentax. It's still much bigger sensor, I can put it on tech cam and use Digitar lenses, I can use Capture One.
But, it's nice to see that competition is growing which can lead to great changes in future (especially price changes).

[torger]

Pentax has a huge advantage by having consumer DSLRs to borrow technology from. Development of most electronics can be financed by the consumer products. With CMOS it's easy to just change the sensor size, moreso than with CCD (which seems to need black magic analog circuitry to work well).

Hasselblad and and Phase One don't have that, making development costs focused on a much smaller sales volume, ie much higher prices to the end customer. I'm not sure Hasselblad or Phase One can lower prices even if they wanted to. They're stuck in their small-volume + high-cost business model.

I don't think the 645Z will be a huge hit and game-changer over night, but as user-base grow, get some more lenses, maybe fine-tuned raw conversions etc, it may be a very tough competitor for Hasselblad and Phase One. They still have 645 full-frame though for those that need that, and tech cam space.

[Theodoros]

If there is a Contax fit P1 IQ250 S/H back for sale, I offer a little more than a new Pentax for it... I guess it's a smashing offer that "one can't refuse"    ...I doubt they'll find another one so tempting again!   

[jduncan]

Re: the AF coverage on the 645Z

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53499870

-- this is from a Pentax US employee.

The same AF array component from their latest APS-C dSLR is used in the 645Z, so the coverage is pretty much crowed into the centre area.

The Imaging-Resource coverage may also be of interest:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53499870

Thanks, 
I was concern since Pentax does not have a 35mm full frame  flagship to borrow the array from.
In the other hand this camera is superior to any other CMOS MF camera in so many ways. It lacks Technical camera support  and the composition capabilities of the Hasselblads but hardly any thing more.

The other  question is the lenses: As we knew and the DXO team have proven we really need good lenses to make the difference between a high resolution chip and one that is not.

Medium format is less demanding on the lenses than full frame DSLR (or APC) and 50mpixels is not that much so it may not be an issue.

The camera is so far ahead that even if it costed 25k will be difficult to justify the other guys pricing.
The MF vendors need to react, before they become the MF version of the Lunar.  (or worse since the Hasselblad is not an antique, even if is not state of the art)

Best regards,
J. Duncan

[leeonmaui]

Aloha,

Just OMG why freaking quibble, this camera is going to rock, just like the first one only better, cant freaking wait!
And the cherry on top- the new 24-70 zoom, I might just break down from only primes and get it.

Maybe they did something with the AF points as the first cameras point selection is a bit narrow...

[powerslave12r]

Nice camera! Samples look a little soft compared to my DP2M but down-ressed to 15MP they should be plenty sharp (among other available sharpening constructs/workflows).

That said, the samples look brilliant. I also love that they've posted full size samples.

I can't help but wonder what the SD1 Quattro will bring to the table.

Disclaimer: I'm Medium Format illiterate.

[larkis]

Nice camera! Samples look a little soft compared to my DP2M but down-ressed to 15MP they should be plenty sharp (among other available sharpening constructs/workflows).

I actually think that the samples look horrible compared to what the camera is capable of. I have the first model and the raws are certainly sharper, especially when it comes to picking up micro details. The best sample out of all of those is the second image of the girl. You can tell the detail is picked up by the lens but blurred over by some sort of jpg processing. The landscape shot with the 55mm lens could be a lot sharper. Again, I assume this is the jpg processing out of the camera and has nothing to do with the actual raw output. The jpg samples from the D800e that nikon posted at launch were grim looking as well. Pixel for pixel none of those cameras will beat the DP2M. Considering the merrill has considerably fewer pixels in it's final image, it's enlargement capabilities will not match a 50mp or even 40mp file.

I'm excited for this update and will probably upgrade to the new body this year.

[narikin]

And....  the Japanese kill the European camera industry all over again.

[powerslave12r]

I actually think that the samples look horrible compared to what the camera is capable of. I have the first model and the raws are certainly sharper, especially when it comes to picking up micro details. The best sample out of all of those is the second image of the girl. You can tell the detail is picked up by the lens but blurred over by some sort of jpg processing. The landscape shot with the 55mm lens could be a lot sharper. Again, I assume this is the jpg processing out of the camera and has nothing to do with the actual raw output. The jpg samples from the D800e that nikon posted at launch were grim looking as well. Pixel for pixel none of those cameras will beat the DP2M. Considering the merrill has considerably fewer pixels in it's final image, it's enlargement capabilities will not match a 50mp or even 40mp file.

I'm excited for this update and will probably upgrade to the new body this year.

I agree, that's the kind of observations I made when I went through the samples myself.

As interesting as this development is, as I mentioned, I can absolutely not wait to see what Sigma delivers with the DP1Q.

[Doug Peterson]

And....  the Japanese kill the European camera industry all over again.

Hmmm. Very definitive statement.

It sounds like a lot of comments when the 645D Mark 1 was released.

Since then Phase One unit sales, sales volume, and profit are all up year over year.

[RobertJ]

The samples are unbelievably bad, and incredibly soft, but I'm 99% sure this is due to the out-of-camera JPEG quality.  I'm sure RAW will be way better.  And who's samples HAVEN'T been bad?  They're always bad.

If they release their own digital back for even less, that would be awesome, but unlikely.  They never released a 645D digital back.  Doh.

[jduncan]

Hmmm. Very definitive statement.

It sounds like a lot of comments when the 645D Mark 1 was released.

Since then Phase One unit sales, sales volume, and profit are all up year over year.

Agree, but I was not impressed by the first one except in terms of price.  This one is , in paper, impressive.  I hope Phase and Hasselblad are taking this machine
seriously.

There are tipping points, not sure this is one but it should be close.  The next generation Phase One camera better be good.

Best regards,

J. Duncan

[Theodoros]

Hmmm. Very definitive statement.

It sounds like a lot of comments when the 645D Mark 1 was released.

Since then Phase One unit sales, sales volume, and profit are all up year over year.

The situation is completely different than it was back then Doug...  At those days, Pentax used an inferior sensor to Dalsa's 40mp, in fact I don't think that the Kodak 40mp was any better than Kodak's 31mp sensor and people could get P30+ backs at comparable prices to the Pentax camera... Then, the line of modern lenses designed for digital that Pentax offered was pretty limited...  Now it is a completely different situation, sensor is the same as with IQ250, line of lenses is great, the camera is even cheaper than the previous introduction and it even shoots video... at 30% price from the nearest (complete) camera alternative, which happens to be the Hassy!  How much is a complete camera with IQ250 Doug? ...how much is the 25mm P1 lens? ...no, I'm not asking for the 28. 

[torger]

Sales can be up by finding new markets, like industrial, luxury markets in the east etc. I wonder how the sales are going in the traditional western markets, if they're been up there too. Seems like there's been many moves both from and to medium format, so it's hard to say without having the numbers.

I would not be surprised though if the rise in Phase One's good numbers is mostly thanks to new markets rather than going well in the old.