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Author Topic: Pentax 645Z  (Read 176089 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #140 on: April 15, 2014, 06:19:33 pm »

The thing is that the 645z very much looks like the last camera most people would ever need.

Heck, it will offer near 4x5 image quality hand held at ISO6400 with anti-vibration... and you can do that in a downpour without having to care about anything but your own feet getting wet...

Cheers,
Bernard

paul_jones

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #141 on: April 15, 2014, 06:20:05 pm »

Re: the AF coverage on the 645Z

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53499870

-- this is from a Pentax US employee.

The same AF array component from their latest APS-C dSLR is used in the 645Z, so the coverage is pretty much crowed into the centre area.

The Imaging-Resource coverage may also be of interest:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53499870

thanks for the info. this is a disappointment- this is a major weakness of any medium format (I've owned most), i guess only 20% of photos in advertising has the subject anywhere near the centre, and it a right pain and adds inaccuracy to focus/ recompose every time. this is where the dslrs have this almost solved (although they need more coverage too).

paul
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uaiomex

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #142 on: April 15, 2014, 06:39:12 pm »

I always knew this day was coming (it ought to). For some reasons beyond my comprehension, digital medium format back manufacturers almost drove the professional's favorite gear to extinction with their ridiculous bussines and pricing format. I'm very glad Pentax and Sony came to the rescue. Some others will come soon. Finally we can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Fellow photographers: It was a long cold lonely night!  Congratulations everybody!  
Best
Eduardo                                            

Long faces in the Phase and Blad canteens.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 06:47:27 pm by uaiomex »
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LKaven

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #143 on: April 15, 2014, 06:45:53 pm »

MFD engineering for CCD chips relied on crafting a good analog front end and doing clean conversion.  You could compete partly on the basis of whether you did that well or not.

But the new MFD Exmor is different.  It does all of that on-chip, and delivers digital at the pin-outs.  In large part, the "look" is baked in before the camera ever reads it off the sensor.  

If P/L/H are going to claim they offer $20,000-$28,000 more value for the same imaging pipeline, they will have to make a strong case.  I'm not saying they can't do it.  But I am saying it's a different game than before.

Theodoros

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #144 on: April 15, 2014, 06:54:33 pm »

I believe the consequences from this release at that price will be more than we possibly may expect at first site:

1. Existing new MF products price will drop.
2. S/H market prices of older digital MF will be significantly reduced
3. There is no market anymore for expensive FF (like 1Ds or D3x)
4. Hasselblad V&F lenses will find a new home via adapter, other 6x6 lenses with aperture ring also...
5. Leica S sales will be also affected - It is almost certain now that they 'll have to have a Cmos sensor for the S, Cmosis is the logical source...
6. MF market will rise considerably
7. Hasselblad will have no choice but to "re-open" the H system...
8. 54x40.5 Cmos sensors are to be expected soon...

I am sure more possible consequences will be suggested by others...

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uaiomex

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #145 on: April 15, 2014, 07:00:42 pm »

How about ... things going back to normal?  :D

For example: At least one MF camera in every studio.
Eduardo



I am sure more possible consequences will be suggested by others...


[/quote]
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 07:07:50 pm by uaiomex »
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MrSmith

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #146 on: April 15, 2014, 07:08:13 pm »

How about a 100-120mp 16bit back with poor live view, no long exposures, unusable above 100asa and £35k?
Isn't that what MFD customers want? Only that looked the way things were going before the applecart got upset.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #147 on: April 15, 2014, 07:14:08 pm »

If P/L/H are going to claim they offer $20,000-$28,000 more value for the same imaging pipeline, they will have to make a strong case.  I'm not saying they can't do it.  But I am saying it's a different game than before.

There are still unique values for backs: ability to mount on technical cameras, shutter leaf lenses, tethering, excellent support from VARs, their very price and the corresponding induced feeling to own the best,...

Now, I am not sure that a majority of MFDB owners really use those possibilities much. My guess is that a majority of non pro owners just buy a DF camera or a HxD and just shoot with it the same way they would shoot with a DSLR.

For that important segment, the 645Z does appear to provide much better value and possibly also better performance as a system depending on your applications. It is very obvious for landscape work, would it only be thanks to its rugged construction.

Now, an interesting side effect of Pentax adopting Exmor technology is the more widespread acknowledgement that some 35mm sensors, such as that of the D800/a7r, do provide equal if not better pixel quality than much more expensive backs. ;)

Now, 51mp and 36mp are not that different for most applications, in fact they are pretty much the same if stitching is added to the picture. This means that the 6,800 US$ D800E + Zeiss Otus55mm f1.4 is de facto made into a credible competitor of the the 37,000 US$ IQ250 + 80mm f2.8. I am unclear which of the 2 delivers the sweetest images... in fact I am pretty sure that the rendering of the Otus is nicer and that the actual detail is superior at wider apertures, regardless of the lower sensor resolution. We would need DxOMark to test the P1 80mm f2.8 on the UQ250 to be sure.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 10:13:57 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #148 on: April 15, 2014, 07:28:46 pm »

MFD engineering for CCD chips relied on crafting a good analog front end and doing clean conversion.  You could compete partly on the basis of whether you did that well or not.

But the new MFD Exmor is different.  It does all of that on-chip, and delivers digital at the pin-outs.  In large part, the "look" is baked in before the camera ever reads it off the sensor.  

If P/L/H are going to claim they offer $20,000-$28,000 more value for the same imaging pipeline, they will have to make a strong case.  I'm not saying they can't do it.  But I am saying it's a different game than before.

There are still variations in implementation. With the CMOS chips, image quality still depends on stuff like thermal dissipation, and some filtering. And of course fps, buffer and video depend on what you are prepared to spend. From the specs, my impression is that Pentax are actually using a fairly sophisticated and expensive design compared to Hassy and Phase; it remains to be seen whether everything really works in practice, or whether the tenth shot inside the church and low-light video is in fact drowned out by noise.

The one thing which we can all agree on is that the Pentax body and pricing will really hurt the Phase enthusiast and general pro market, and Pentax sales will be good. The sound on this forum shows that. The 645Z is not going to be ignored like the 645D.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 07:32:54 pm by eronald »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #149 on: April 15, 2014, 09:08:29 pm »

Sales can be up by finding new markets, like industrial, luxury markets in the east etc. I wonder how the sales are going in the traditional western markets, if they're been up there too. Seems like there's been many moves both from and to medium format, so it's hard to say without having the numbers.

I would not be surprised though if the rise in Phase One's good numbers is mostly thanks to new markets rather than going well in the old.

NYC is up year-over-year since I arrived here, with growth seen in both traditional commercial (fashion/catalog/portrait/still-life/architecture), fine art, enthusiasts, and our "new" market (though we've done it for years) of cultural heritage imaging.

Doug Peterson

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #150 on: April 15, 2014, 09:13:58 pm »

3. There is no market anymore for expensive FF (like 1Ds or D3x)

"no market"?

Genres like Photojournalism (especially in rugged environments) and sports/action will still have the same use for a high-speed, built-like-a-tank, low-light-performance, super-AF-tracking bodies like a 1DX.

Also I feel the 5DIII feels like cheap junk when held compared to a 1Ds III. If it was my main camera, rather than backup/second camera on a wedding I'd much rather have the 1DX than the 5DIII/D800 (my choice for a backup camera is very influenced by weight, especially since I'm carrying a medium format camera as the primary camera).

Doug Peterson

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #151 on: April 15, 2014, 09:14:54 pm »

Fellow photographers: It was a long cold lonely night!  Congratulations everybody!  

So you'll be buying one?

eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #152 on: April 15, 2014, 09:18:11 pm »

So you'll be buying one?

Doug, it may be time to become a Pentax dealer to supplement your day job as a marriage photographer :)

BTW, the last three companies I worked for went broke - there seems to be no stability anymore ...

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 09:25:09 pm by eronald »
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #153 on: April 15, 2014, 09:31:15 pm »


I am sure more possible consequences will be suggested by others...


we are due for next big recession soon... somebody shall not see it through....
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BobDavid

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #154 on: April 15, 2014, 09:36:43 pm »

I didn't realize P1s and Hasseys are flying off the shelves. Hmm. I will say one of the worst lenses I ever used was the HC 35mm---fine for interiors, not fine at infinity. My Sony a850/Zeiss 24-70 rendered much better IQ at 24mm. I'd even go so far to say that the Tokina APS 11-16 @ 16mm on an a850 produced better files than the HC35 mounted on an HDX. The 50 I was another dog. Lenses often trump sensor size. I see the Pentax 645Z being a game changer--similarly to how the original Canon 5D was a game changer.
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LKaven

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #155 on: April 15, 2014, 10:04:41 pm »

NYC is up year-over-year since I arrived here [...]

That's because there's a sign at the tunnel and bridge entrances that says "You must be THIS rich to ride this city."

I know you work hard for the money Doug.  If there is a minor price war in the offing, I hope you are the one to make out on it. 

bcooter

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #156 on: April 15, 2014, 10:31:21 pm »

Doug, it may be time to become a Pentax dealer to supplement your day job as a marriage photographer :)

BTW, the last three companies I worked for went broke - there seems to be no stability anymore ...

Edmund

Edmund.  

Given that last sentence I don't know if I would take career advice from you.

Doug,

Your arguing with the wind man.   90% of the people here that say they love this Pentax won't buy it, once they count the numbers of adding a new lens set and some kind of backup body, that's not a 5d something.

Me, I'm glad everyone is hot for the cmos world, that just leaves one more Leica S available on the shelf.


IMO

BC
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 10:40:37 pm by bcooter »
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #157 on: April 15, 2014, 10:59:31 pm »

Edmund.  

Given that last sentence I don't know if I would take career advice from you.

Doug,

Your arguing with the wind man.   90% of the people here that say they love this Pentax won't buy it, once they count the numbers of adding a new lens set and some kind of backup body, that's not a 5d something.

Me, I'm glad everyone is hot for the cmos world, that just leaves one more Leica S available on the shelf.


IMO

BC

Just wait for Photokina, the CCD Leicas will get thrown out of rich guy's windows like chamberpots, as they buy the new CMOS versions :)


Edmund
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 12:32:42 am by eronald »
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uaiomex

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #158 on: April 16, 2014, 12:18:36 am »

Not for the moment. I'm on a sabbatical till further notice. Still, excited about it and following closely these developments. I closed my studio over a year ago and moved to paradise. I don't know exactly what to do next. I may open the studio again or decide to totally get into landscape photo, even if it is harder to make money with this. Since I don't have any urgency, I'll wait for Photokina and see. If this Pentax was a mirrorless body, I would be putting my order today.
Good luck to you all. Like someone just said: The game is the same. Just the options changed.
Best
Eduardo

So you'll be buying one?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 12:30:11 am by uaiomex »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #159 on: April 16, 2014, 02:10:02 am »

Hi,

Those cameras don't compete with MF at all. 1Ds is about robustness and high speed shooting at high ISO, D3X is 24 MP sensor in heavy duty body.

D800E and Sony A7r are the closest thing to MF, right now.

I guess that the 645Z makes room for some expansion for MF. It also shows that the competition is overpriced. It seems that this may be a serious attempt by Ricoh to stay in the MF segment, as many lenses seem to be available.

A digital back offers more options, but I don't know if that is enough to motivate a 20000-30000$ difference in price.

Best regards
Erik


3. There is no market anymore for expensive FF (like 1Ds or D3x)


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