Schneider PC-TS Super-Angulon 4.5 / 28 HM Aspheric

[Pesto]

Does anyone here know anything about this lens and especially wether and when we might expect to be seeing them here in the states?

[CptZar]

You can preorder it at bhphoto. At only 8K it seams like a real bargain. Schneider will sell tons of it.


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=Schneider+PC-TS+Super-Angulon+28mm+f%2F4.5+HM+Aspheric+&N=0&Ns=p_PRICE_2%7C0&srtclk=sort

[allegretto]

Would definitely want to see it up against the Canon 24mm 3.5 Mk II edge to edge
 
It's one of Canon's very best and a darn good 24 for anything unless you need AF.

Sharp, snappy and good corners. The TS PC is icing on the cake really. Love that lens and will keep it even if I don't have Canon as long as I can control the F-stop somehow

[CptZar]

Lloyd Chambers has it on his list for testing.  Quite interesting after he trashed the 50/f2.8. Quite exiting to see how it beats the Canon 24TS II by $6000.

[Quentin]

For that money it had better blow the Nikkor PC-E 24mm I use out of the water.

[synn]

For that money it had better blow the Nikkor PC-E 24mm I use out of the water.

Well, it does tilt and shift in axes independent of each other, so that's plus 1 over the Nikon.
Also, it can be changed from one mount to the other by just replacing the rear mount piece.

[HarperPhotos]

Hello,

Its seems Lloyd Charmers has an up coming review of this lens. So as Synn has such a low opinion of this man and his articles I’m sure this thread will continue.

Cheers

Simon

[synn]

I have a high opinion of Schneider lenses and have nothing more to contribute.

[Quentin]

Well, it does tilt and shift in axes independent of each other, so that's plus 1 over the Nikon.
Also, it can be changed from one mount to the other by just replacing the rear mount piece.

Wow great value then, clearly worth the extra $6k 😊

Actually in all seriousness, if it is a superb sharp accross the frame lens, then it would be reasonable value.  We suffer too too many compromises just to make lenses "affordable". 

[RomanN.]

hi,
I called Schneider few months ago asking when the lens will be available. Now it seems to come.
This lens is exactly the Schneider-mamiya-Phase one 4,5/28 mm build in tilf/shift body. So the performance is exacltly like this lens.
Do anybody use the 4,5/28 mm for phase one / mamiya?

[Paul2660]

Nikon will adjust any of their PC-E lenses to allow the tilt and shift in the same plane, not sure of the cost.  I believe if you are NPS it's free.  I have been also told it can be done by the end user.  

I never found the Nikon 24 PC-E anywhere close to the Canon TS-E 24 II lens. Tried 3 of them, and all were not that great on shifts.  I know others have great love for it, so it may be sample variation.

As for the Phase 28mm, F 4.5, it actually has 3 iterations, the Mamiya F4.5 28mm, the Phase One 28mm D, and the Phase One LS 28mm.  It's all the same lens inside, same number of groups and elements.  Schneider just added a LS shutter, but did not change out anything else.  

Optically on Full frame 645, the 28 is a great 35mm lens.  There are better and worse versions, I have used the Mamiya 28mm on both 39 and 60MP and 80MP backs.  Performance fine in the center, but until F11 you saw considerable corner softness and or smearing.  I have not used the LS version but have see plenty of examples from it.  I believe that Phase One does have a bit of control over the lenses, i.e QA better than Mamiya did.  Still it's a very expensive lens, and it can not come close to a Rodenstock 28 HR anywhere in the image.  (If the Rodenstock 28 HR just had a 90mm IC).  DT had some comparisons of the 28 (not sure if it was the LS or D and the 28 HR on their site for a while).

So, if you take this down to the smaller sensor of a 35mm camera, it should do great.  However it's huge, heavy and over 8K, just a bit out of $$$ and reality.    It's also not wide enough in a 35mm format for most of my needs as it's a true 28mm vs 17mm on MF.  Love that front filter thread of 122mm also.  Try to find a filter under 500.00 in that size if they even make any. 

Nikon hopefully will address their PC lineup in the future, with a new 24 and maybe a 17mm, but it doesn't seem to be something that will be happening anytime soon.

Paul

[alan_b]

hi,
I called Schneider few months ago asking when the lens will be available. Now it seems to come.
This lens is exactly the Schneider-mamiya-Phase one 4,5/28 mm build in tilf/shift body. So the performance is exacltly like this lens.

If true, that means the T/S body adds 1lb to the weight of the LS lens (1.5lbs over the non-LS) and $2300 to the cost. 

I'm interested to see how this lens performs, but on paper it seems outrageously priced if (assumptions):
1. It's recycled from a MF lens that costs $2300-2800 less
2. Seen as a medium-wide companion to 17mm & 24mm canon companions (that cost less than 1/3 the price of the Schneider and are generally considered excellent)
3. As Paul reports, the MF 28mm is not so hot in the outer regions (35mm frame shifted 12mm in the long dimension will get you 30mm from center, which is farther than the edge of a 645 frame.)

I just don't understand how this lens fits in the market.

[CptZar]

Lloyd Chambers writes:

"By any metric this performance disappoints. But given the enormous cost of the Schneider 28/4.5 (about $8300), this performance is at odds with expectations in no small way. The color fringing alone is deeply disappointing."

For that money you can buy a Canon TS 24II, which is an excellent lens,  a the new Sony A7II or the upcoming A9, with an adapter of your choice and you would still have $4000 left to spend otherwise.

This price is bizarre.

[allegretto]

No surprise...

The Canon 24mm TS-E is an extremely good lens for just about anything... and it IS hand-holdable even in TS mode... what more does one need?

Oh, and I think with an adapter you Nikonistas can use it too... I know... it's got 2-stops less DR than the Nikkor...

Lloyd Chambers writes:

"By any metric this performance disappoints. But given the enormous cost of the Schneider 28/4.5 (about $8300), this performance is at odds with expectations in no small way. The color fringing alone is deeply disappointing."

For that money you can buy a Canon TS 24II, which is an excellent lens,  a the new Sony A7II or the upcoming A9, with an adapter of your choice and you would still have $4000 left to spend otherwise.

This price is bizarre.

[Stefan.Steib]

I was holding back to answer first, but given the way of Cooperation from Schneider to us, here we go:

I tested this lenskit for Hartblei in 2009, I bought one for 1700€ .( In case if someone is interested I still have it, to sell will take nearly any offer...:-).
We have taken the lenses on our measurement optical bench and after some trials and tests we decided that
a) the price for a ready made Hartblei Superrotator would be ridiculously high (way beyond the 4/40mm IF which uses the superb Distagon kit from Zeiss)
b) the Imagecircle would only barely deliver on full movements which would
c) only get an inferior image quality shifted or tilted fully.

as the same year showed the appearance of the new Canon TS-E 17 and 24mm I decided to stop the project for a 28mm Hartblei Superrotator lens.

Stefan Steib - hartblei.de  hcam.de

[kers]

So we have two independent sources being not too positive about this 8000$ lens
I have used two Schneider wide angle lenses for 4x5 inch.
the 58mm 5.6 was fantastic - the much later developed 80mm aspheric 4.5 was a disappointment until d11 and beyond.
Somehow they can make very good lenses but you cannot trust them blindly.
The MTF curves of this 28mm looks like a roller coaster

[synn]

No surprise...

The Canon 24mm TS-E is an extremely good lens for just about anything... and it IS hand-holdable even in TS mode... what more does one need?

Oh, and I think with an adapter you Nikonistas can use it too... I know... it's got 2-stops less DR than the Nikkor...

Actually, as a brand agnostic person who has nikon gear for his 35mm needs, I consider the canon 24T/S on a sony A7r as the best solution for this image format.

You can't use canon lenses on nikon cameras btw.

[allegretto]

Actually, as a brand agnostic person who has nikon gear for his 35mm needs, I consider the canon 24T/S on a sony A7r as the best solution for this image format.

You can't use canon lenses on nikon cameras btw.

agreed on the A7R except the darn MB IV is pretty expensive for what it is, and pretty cheaply built for what it is. Hence I consider holding on to the 6D. The Zeiss 100 is just a great lens for low tele and light macro, will go 1:2 out of the box and a 2.0 to boot. Not the MTF of the 135 (just about nothing is!) but being a little shorter and close focus makes it a useful all-court player...

 thought the Nikon could... my bad...

[Paul2660]

No, the flange focal distance is too great, thus the Canon to Nikon adapter would push the lens past infinity focus. 

One area that Nikon is lacking for sure is a more modern PC-E or TS-E wide angle lens.  Had hope that last fall Nikon would announce something in a 17mm or so, but they were moot. 

Paul

[shadowblade]

I'm not sold on Schneider lenses for 35mm format.

A lens for medium/large format requires a large image circle and large glass elements, but only moderate optical precision. A lens for 35mm or smaller requires a small image circle, but much higher optical precision to achieve the needed resolution. Schneider is very good at the former, but hasn't distinguished itself in the latter in the same way as Zeiss, Leica, Canon and, lately, Sigma.

A tilt-shift lens is more difficult again, since it requires both a large image circle (for the necessary coverage) and extremely high precision (since it's being used on high-density sensors).