Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Pesto on March 19, 2014, 08:25:34 am
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Does anyone here know anything about this lens and especially wether and when we might expect to be seeing them here in the states?
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You can preorder it at bhphoto. At only 8K it seams like a real bargain. Schneider will sell tons of it.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=Schneider+PC-TS+Super-Angulon+28mm+f%2F4.5+HM+Aspheric+&N=0&Ns=p_PRICE_2%7C0&srtclk=sort
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Would definitely want to see it up against the Canon 24mm 3.5 Mk II edge to edge
It's one of Canon's very best and a darn good 24 for anything unless you need AF.
Sharp, snappy and good corners. The TS PC is icing on the cake really. Love that lens and will keep it even if I don't have Canon as long as I can control the F-stop somehow
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Lloyd Chambers has it on his list for testing. Quite interesting after he trashed the 50/f2.8. Quite exiting to see how it beats the Canon 24TS II by $6000.
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For that money it had better blow the Nikkor PC-E 24mm I use out of the water.
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For that money it had better blow the Nikkor PC-E 24mm I use out of the water.
Well, it does tilt and shift in axes independent of each other, so that's plus 1 over the Nikon.
Also, it can be changed from one mount to the other by just replacing the rear mount piece.
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Hello,
Its seems Lloyd Charmers has an up coming review of this lens. So as Synn has such a low opinion of this man and his articles I’m sure this thread will continue.
Cheers
Simon
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I have a high opinion of Schneider lenses and have nothing more to contribute.
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Well, it does tilt and shift in axes independent of each other, so that's plus 1 over the Nikon.
Also, it can be changed from one mount to the other by just replacing the rear mount piece.
Wow great value then, clearly worth the extra $6k 😊
Actually in all seriousness, if it is a superb sharp accross the frame lens, then it would be reasonable value. We suffer too too many compromises just to make lenses "affordable".
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hi,
I called Schneider few months ago asking when the lens will be available. Now it seems to come.
This lens is exactly the Schneider-mamiya-Phase one 4,5/28 mm build in tilf/shift body. So the performance is exacltly like this lens.
Do anybody use the 4,5/28 mm for phase one / mamiya?
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Nikon will adjust any of their PC-E lenses to allow the tilt and shift in the same plane, not sure of the cost. I believe if you are NPS it's free. I have been also told it can be done by the end user.
I never found the Nikon 24 PC-E anywhere close to the Canon TS-E 24 II lens. Tried 3 of them, and all were not that great on shifts. I know others have great love for it, so it may be sample variation.
As for the Phase 28mm, F 4.5, it actually has 3 iterations, the Mamiya F4.5 28mm, the Phase One 28mm D, and the Phase One LS 28mm. It's all the same lens inside, same number of groups and elements. Schneider just added a LS shutter, but did not change out anything else.
Optically on Full frame 645, the 28 is a great 35mm lens. There are better and worse versions, I have used the Mamiya 28mm on both 39 and 60MP and 80MP backs. Performance fine in the center, but until F11 you saw considerable corner softness and or smearing. I have not used the LS version but have see plenty of examples from it. I believe that Phase One does have a bit of control over the lenses, i.e QA better than Mamiya did. Still it's a very expensive lens, and it can not come close to a Rodenstock 28 HR anywhere in the image. (If the Rodenstock 28 HR just had a 90mm IC). DT had some comparisons of the 28 (not sure if it was the LS or D and the 28 HR on their site for a while).
So, if you take this down to the smaller sensor of a 35mm camera, it should do great. However it's huge, heavy and over 8K, just a bit out of $$$ and reality. It's also not wide enough in a 35mm format for most of my needs as it's a true 28mm vs 17mm on MF. Love that front filter thread of 122mm also. Try to find a filter under 500.00 in that size if they even make any.
Nikon hopefully will address their PC lineup in the future, with a new 24 and maybe a 17mm, but it doesn't seem to be something that will be happening anytime soon.
Paul
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hi,
I called Schneider few months ago asking when the lens will be available. Now it seems to come.
This lens is exactly the Schneider-mamiya-Phase one 4,5/28 mm build in tilf/shift body. So the performance is exacltly like this lens.
If true, that means the T/S body adds 1lb to the weight of the LS lens (1.5lbs over the non-LS) and $2300 to the cost.
I'm interested to see how this lens performs, but on paper it seems outrageously priced if (assumptions):
1. It's recycled from a MF lens that costs $2300-2800 less
2. Seen as a medium-wide companion to 17mm & 24mm canon companions (that cost less than 1/3 the price of the Schneider and are generally considered excellent)
3. As Paul reports, the MF 28mm is not so hot in the outer regions (35mm frame shifted 12mm in the long dimension will get you 30mm from center, which is farther than the edge of a 645 frame.)
I just don't understand how this lens fits in the market.
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Lloyd Chambers writes:
"By any metric this performance disappoints. But given the enormous cost of the Schneider 28/4.5 (about $8300), this performance is at odds with expectations in no small way. The color fringing alone is deeply disappointing."
For that money you can buy a Canon TS 24II, which is an excellent lens, a the new Sony A7II or the upcoming A9, with an adapter of your choice and you would still have $4000 left to spend otherwise.
This price is bizarre.
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No surprise... ;D
The Canon 24mm TS-E is an extremely good lens for just about anything... and it IS hand-holdable even in TS mode... what more does one need?
Oh, and I think with an adapter you Nikonistas can use it too... I know... it's got 2-stops less DR than the Nikkor... :D
Lloyd Chambers writes:
"By any metric this performance disappoints. But given the enormous cost of the Schneider 28/4.5 (about $8300), this performance is at odds with expectations in no small way. The color fringing alone is deeply disappointing."
For that money you can buy a Canon TS 24II, which is an excellent lens, a the new Sony A7II or the upcoming A9, with an adapter of your choice and you would still have $4000 left to spend otherwise.
This price is bizarre.
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I was holding back to answer first, but given the way of Cooperation from Schneider to us, here we go:
I tested this lenskit for Hartblei in 2009, I bought one for 1700€ .( In case if someone is interested I still have it, to sell will take nearly any offer...:-).
We have taken the lenses on our measurement optical bench and after some trials and tests we decided that
a) the price for a ready made Hartblei Superrotator would be ridiculously high (way beyond the 4/40mm IF which uses the superb Distagon kit from Zeiss)
b) the Imagecircle would only barely deliver on full movements which would
c) only get an inferior image quality shifted or tilted fully.
as the same year showed the appearance of the new Canon TS-E 17 and 24mm I decided to stop the project for a 28mm Hartblei Superrotator lens.
Stefan Steib - hartblei.de hcam.de
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So we have two independent sources being not too positive about this 8000$ lens
I have used two Schneider wide angle lenses for 4x5 inch.
the 58mm 5.6 was fantastic - the much later developed 80mm aspheric 4.5 was a disappointment until d11 and beyond.
Somehow they can make very good lenses but you cannot trust them blindly.
The MTF curves of this 28mm looks like a roller coaster
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No surprise... ;D
The Canon 24mm TS-E is an extremely good lens for just about anything... and it IS hand-holdable even in TS mode... what more does one need?
Oh, and I think with an adapter you Nikonistas can use it too... I know... it's got 2-stops less DR than the Nikkor... :D
Actually, as a brand agnostic person who has nikon gear for his 35mm needs, I consider the canon 24T/S on a sony A7r as the best solution for this image format.
You can't use canon lenses on nikon cameras btw.
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Actually, as a brand agnostic person who has nikon gear for his 35mm needs, I consider the canon 24T/S on a sony A7r as the best solution for this image format.
You can't use canon lenses on nikon cameras btw.
agreed on the A7R except the darn MB IV is pretty expensive for what it is, and pretty cheaply built for what it is. Hence I consider holding on to the 6D. The Zeiss 100 is just a great lens for low tele and light macro, will go 1:2 out of the box and a 2.0 to boot. Not the MTF of the 135 (just about nothing is!) but being a little shorter and close focus makes it a useful all-court player...
thought the Nikon could... my bad...
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No, the flange focal distance is too great, thus the Canon to Nikon adapter would push the lens past infinity focus.
One area that Nikon is lacking for sure is a more modern PC-E or TS-E wide angle lens. Had hope that last fall Nikon would announce something in a 17mm or so, but they were moot.
Paul
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I'm not sold on Schneider lenses for 35mm format.
A lens for medium/large format requires a large image circle and large glass elements, but only moderate optical precision. A lens for 35mm or smaller requires a small image circle, but much higher optical precision to achieve the needed resolution. Schneider is very good at the former, but hasn't distinguished itself in the latter in the same way as Zeiss, Leica, Canon and, lately, Sigma.
A tilt-shift lens is more difficult again, since it requires both a large image circle (for the necessary coverage) and extremely high precision (since it's being used on high-density sensors).
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I have great respect for Schneider generally, but feel they've been startlingly lazy when it comes to 35mm optics. While Zeiss designs new lenses for scratch, Schneider in every case repurposes a medium format design. Usually an older one. Unfortunately they have to dig through their attic for designs with sufficiently strong retrofocus to work on a 35mm slr. These are usually lower performing lenses.
The exception so far is their 90mm pc-ts. It's long enough that it needs no retrofocus, so they're able to use a very simple, but still state-of-the art medium format design. This lens is as good as anything.
I exchanged some emails about the 28mm pc-ts with technicians at Schneider. I wanted to find out if the lens was just a repurposing of the 28mm f4.5 lens for Mamiya, which seemed to be a middling performer. I was told that the PC-TS was indeed based on this lens, but that it was being recalculated by Hildegard Ebesmeyer for "an improved performance." Whatever that means. At any rate, I had sort of high hopes, considering that Ms. Ebesmeyer was credited with designing the 110mm Super Symmar XL that everyone flips out over.
But only sort-of high hopes, since I don't have $8000+ plus to replace my current shift lens.
At any rate, even without reading L.C.'s review, the lens seems like a bummer. I really wish Schneider would stop phoning in these half-ass designs for 35mm. It would be good for everyone if Zeiss had some serious competition. We know from the medium format world that Schneider is more than up to the task when they put their minds to it.
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Maybe someone has an alternative suggestion, but I'm interested in this lens mainly for one reason, that is the tripod mount on the lens barrel. I'd kill to have this on my canon 17 and 24s because it would mean I can stitch multiple images together without the register problems created by the lens movement when I shift. I can still do this with a bit of fiddling in the stitching, but I then have an effective wider angle of view than I want. Ideally I want the same angle of view that I get from my 90mm on the 5x4. My fantasy lens would be a T/S Zeiss 35mm with a lens barrel tripod mount...
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Maybe someone has an alternative suggestion, but I'm interested in this lens mainly for one reason, that is the tripod mount on the lens barrel. I'd kill to have this on my canon 17 and 24s because it would mean I can stitch multiple images together without the register problems created by the lens movement when I shift. I can still do this with a bit of fiddling in the stitching, but I then have an effective wider angle of view than I want. Ideally I want the same angle of view that I get from my 90mm on the 5x4. My fantasy lens would be a T/S Zeiss 35mm with a lens barrel tripod mount...
Alprafoto -
No need to kill anybody. Do you know the Zoerk Rear Shift Adapters? They do what you need for the TS-E 17 and 24. There is a version and for the Nikon PC-Es too (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Neue-Adapter-von-Zoerk). An alternative but more expensive is the tse-collar distributed by hartblei (http://www.hartblei.de/en/canon-tse-collar.htm).
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For many years I used Phase One backs on a Linhof M679. I was never really comfortable with the marriage between a medium format digital back and a technical camera, but hung on because of the occasional need for lens movements. Eventually I managed to find a retro focus Schneider 55mm PCS lens in a Phase One mount which covered the majority of my lens shift needs, so I trialled the lens and was delighted to discover that it delivered all the IQ I could want. Consequently I sold the Linhof.
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Maybe someone has an alternative suggestion, but I'm interested in this lens mainly for one reason, that is the tripod mount on the lens barrel. I'd kill to have this on my canon 17 and 24s because it would mean I can stitch multiple images together without the register problems created by the lens movement when I shift. I can still do this with a bit of fiddling in the stitching, but I then have an effective wider angle of view than I want. Ideally I want the same angle of view that I get from my 90mm on the 5x4. My fantasy lens would be a T/S Zeiss 35mm with a lens barrel tripod mount...
Would this help?
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/accessories/ppl_tse-adapter.html
(http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/content_images_2/ts-bracket/bracket-with-pan-head.jpg)
I use the TS-E17 and 24 in a lot of my work and have found I don't need it very often - opening one eye, then just the other is enough to see if there are going to be problems. Most of my stitching is with up/down shifts though.
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If anyone's seriously curious about this lens, it's available for rental at lensrentals.com. Not for cheap, of course, but reasonable for researching a huge purchase.
If there are features that seem valuable to you, it would seem a better idea to trust your own tests over a technology blogger's. Only you know how you plan to use the thing.
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has anyone had the chance to test the Schneider PC/TS 28mm in the meantime?
There is so little information on the web...
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Buy a Zeiss 28mm 1.4 Otus and a Cambo Actus, and you're done.
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Buy a Zeiss 28mm 1.4 Otus and a Cambo Actus, and you're done.
not really the same...
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has anyone had the chance to test the Schneider PC/TS 28mm in the meantime?
There is so little information on the web...
Considering how good the Canon TS-E lenses are, the Schneider seems like a very costly solution to a nonexistent problem, in my opinion.