You wait years for CMOS backs to arrive, and then... Disappointment.

[Steve Hendrix]

The entry level is completely gone now in the Phase offerings.  There is no relatively cheap way anymore to step into MFD without buying use used backs.

With each generation of backs the cheapest model (P30+, P40+, IQ140, IQ250) has gone up in price and now it is almost as expensive as the top line.

There never has been a cheap entry level policy in MFD. There have been a few releases from various manufacturers over the years that have strayed down below the standard entry level, but these have been the exception, not the rule. The rule has been from Day One in 1991 - $25,000 - $30,000 and up. If anything, today offers options closer to "entry level" pricing than ever before (Leaf Credo 40 @ $15K, Phase One IQ140 @ $20K, Hasselblad H5D-40 @ $18K). Not to mention more refurbished options covering multiple generations. It's just expensive and always has been and probably always will be.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[synn]

There never has been a cheap entry level policy in MFD. There have been a few releases from various manufacturers over the years that have strayed down below the standard entry level, but these have been the exception, not the rule. The rule has been from Day One in 1991 - $25,000 - $30,000 and up. If anything, today offers options closer to "entry level" pricing than ever before (Leaf Credo 40 @ $15K, Phase One IQ140 @ $20K, Hasselblad H5D-40 @ $18K). Not to mention more refurbished options covering multiple generations. It's just expensive and always has been and probably always will be.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

+1

The "Entry level" is the $4K used back on Steve's site right now. several years ago, when that back was brand new, there was nothing at that price point to get your foot through the MF door.

The "Entry level" has never been cheaper. Whether one's ego can digest a "Used" sample is another matter altogether.

[LKaven]

There never has been a cheap entry level policy in MFD. There have been a few releases from various manufacturers over the years that have strayed down below the standard entry level, but these have been the exception, not the rule. The rule has been from Day One in 1991 - $25,000 - $30,000 and up. If anything, today offers options closer to "entry level" pricing than ever before (Leaf Credo 40 @ $15K, Phase One IQ140 @ $20K, Hasselblad H5D-40 @ $18K). Not to mention more refurbished options covering multiple generations. It's just expensive and always has been and probably always will be.

There is a high-end business model for equipment that has combined professional use and v.high end enthusiast use.  You can see it in the professional audio market as well (above the Guitar Center level).  [The nice thing about pro audio is that you can buy a pair of Schoeps, as good as they get, for $3500 and they will last your lifetime and your children's lifetime, and still sound absolutely amazing.]  

People like Phase One, working in conjunction with people like Steve and Doug, have to build their own international sales, service, support organizations, fund their own R&D, develop their own software.  They built a market based on the expectations that people like Steve will wake up in the middle of the night to make sure a client has a working unit.  The business model in a sense sets its own expectations that, ok, customers will get these things, but they will cost money.  This further narrows the customer base to those customers with matching expectations and ability to pay.  

But the model could be disrupted.  The Japanese could bring back the commodity medium-format camera.  Using their existing worldwide sales, service, and support networks, and their existing R&D and IP assets, and the availability of key parts at commodity pricing (e.g., the Sony MF CMOS sensor needing very little support circuitry), they could enter the market at under $10k.  Note that while Pentax has an under $10k MFD camera on the market, they have yet to undertake the kind of focused penetration or functional fine-tuning (e.g., seamless tethering) that would take market share away from Scandinavia.  I don't think it will put Phase One out of business, but it could give them new challenges.

[Ken R]

Wow, this is indeed (Forum Members) a really tough crowd.

Here is my take on a lot of the topics that have been mention / discussed.

1- The IQ250 is the first digital back that can be used at any iso with full resolution and very little image quality compromises.
2- It should be a great back for available light work and it allows the use of medium format cameras and lenses in a lot of situations where previously one would go for a 35mm DSLR
3- The IQ250 gives you state if the art sensor performance in a lot of different camera platforms. That is cool.
4- Could it be cheaper, of course, ideally the IQ250 would be priced at $10,000, that would increase the customer base immensely and most likely help in medium format camera and lens sales. Of course if that happens the service and sales infrastructure would have to change. I guess phaseOne priced it so that it remained the same with a similar sales volume as other new products they have introduced in the past and hence the service won't be affected. Sell much more with less profit margin or sell much less with much more profit margin, that is the question.
5- Is the IQ250 a good value, No, get over it and get a D800E and or an A7R if you want the best image quality for your dollar.
6- Is the IQ250 unique? Yes it is. Its the only CMOS digital back so far and it can be used in many camera platforms.
7- Could the sensor be bigger, yes, of course, but the 44x33mm size is great for portraiture and for working with normal to tele lenses. Its not great for wide angle landscapes. (for that get a IQ160 or P65+, awesome sensor and a good value)
8- But what about the 645D? It is a really good camera. I had it for a few weeks. As a design and product it is very very good but the service is suspect since the company sells a very wide range of products and it is not really set up to service high end medium format digital gear. The lens range (new) is limited and they are expensive although old lenses can be had for cheap but the quality varies quite a bit.
9- What about the DF+? Well, it is obvious PhaseOne is working on a replacement and the IQ backs do seem ready for a much better camera body. They certainly look and feel much more advanced than the DF+.
10- What about Tech Cameras? It is obvious the IQ250 is not made to be used on tech cameras (from the info provided so far) but PhaseOne still makes the IQ160/180/260/280 and P40/65+ that work great with tech cameras.

So the IQ250 seems like a great addition to the PhaseOne product line. It is obviously not meant to replace all of the other backs in their line.

[Steve Hendrix]

There is a high-end business model for equipment that has combined professional use and v.high end enthusiast use.  You can see it in the professional audio market as well (above the Guitar Center level).  [The nice thing about pro audio is that you can buy a pair of Schoeps, as good as they get, for $3500 and they will last your lifetime and your children's lifetime, and still sound absolutely amazing.]  

People like Phase One, working in conjunction with people like Steve and Doug, have to build their own international sales, service, support organizations, fund their own R&D, develop their own software.  They built a market based on the expectations that people like Steve will wake up in the middle of the night to make sure a client has a working unit.  The business model in a sense sets its own expectations that, ok, customers will get these things, but they will cost money.  This further narrows the customer base to those customers with matching expectations and ability to pay.  

But the model could be disrupted.  The Japanese could bring back the commodity medium-format camera.  Using their existing worldwide sales, service, and support networks, and their existing R&D and IP assets, and the availability of key parts at commodity pricing (e.g., the Sony MF CMOS sensor needing very little support circuitry), they could enter the market at under $10k.  Note that while Pentax has an under $10k MFD camera on the market, they have yet to undertake the kind of focused penetration or functional fine-tuning (e.g., seamless tethering) that would take market share away from Scandinavia.  I don't think it will put Phase One out of business, but it could give them new challenges.

I agree.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[tsjanik]

It's not been much discussed, but the problem with Pentax is the glass. It's nearly all old film era optics.

.........poor glass,

Which lenses are you referring to?  I use many "old" Pentax lenses on the 645D; their performance  ranges from very good to outstanding.  Here's an old lens test you might find interesting:

http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/pentax645_fa35mm.html

[Ken R]

Which lenses are you referring to?  I use many "old" Pentax lenses on the 645D; their performance  ranges from very good to outstanding.  Here's an old lens test you might find interesting:

http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/pentax645_fa35mm.html

Nice test but I had a Pentax 35mm FA and it was not that good when used at or near infinity as one normally would in most landscape situations. (which is why I got the lens for, for my 645D). Focused closer at 10-15 feet it was excellent. I got the 35mm A (manual) lens and it worked really nice for landscapes at infinity and is much smaller and lighter to boot. So there are alternatives. Generally speaking none of the Pentax FA or A lenses I tried were very good wide open. At f11 they were mostly very good.

Most people forget when doing lens tests or looking at lens tests that most lenses do not perform the same at all focus distances. The best do perform great regardless but a whole lot do not.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

My take on the IQ 250, after a few days:

- A most welcome addition to the Phase One program for anyone looking for a modern CMOS sensor
- Live view is important for some users
- High ISO capability a boon for many
- If no compromise in CGA-design for high ISO, good news for anyone
- An extra stop or two in DR doesn't hurt anyone

A couple of things I don't like:

- Crop factor is not a good fit for large systems built around large sensors. Better for Leica and Pentax who build their systems around smaller sensors.
- I feel higher resolution would make a lot of sense, but it is an opinion not shared by many

Regarding the price, it is very high. Phase obviously feels it is a good price point for the feature/performance mix. It is their decision. Anyone can build and sell a back at a lower price. Let's see if someone is going to do that.

Best regards
Erik

It was a long wait for CMOS to come to MF and then this disappointing IQ250 arrives.

A step back into large crop factors
Just 50mp
No EVF output
Same back form and features (or lack thereof)
Same crazy price at $35,000

Yes an improvement in ISO, a better live view, and.... err.... that's it??  We waited years for this?

It can't even do 2fps? It has no line out for an external monitor/EVF? It can't shoot a 4k video let alone the 8k it potentially has, no matter how short the duration?

Very sad about this. I was ready to buy another back to complement my low ISO IQseries CCD one, and get the best of both worlds, but this is not worth it. It's very much Gen 1, rushed to market once Sony released the chip.

Maybe some company like RED will unlock the chips latent potential. Maybe a larger full frame chip will follow. Maybe the Live View/EVF out will come with IQ3 series, but this... gives me none of those. 

I'll pass.

[torger]

It shall be interesting to see the response when a full-frame version arrives (no idea when that will be). I think it will be a lot more positive. By that time users have been convinced that CMOS colors can be as good as CCD (hopefully), and then a full-frame version will only provide advantages compared to the full-frame CCD. Except possibly price 

(...and wide angular response that I always complain about, but we haven't seen test results of the IQ250 yet, maybe it's not as bad as I think... that would be a nice surprise)

[Theodoros]

+1

The "Entry level" is the $4K used back on Steve's site right now. several years ago, when that back was brand new, there was nothing at that price point to get your foot through the MF door.

The "Entry level" has never been cheaper. Whether one's ego can digest a "Used" sample is another matter altogether.

Yet, you speak on S/H after the (whatever - it should be much larger) "base" that has been created... Clearly, if makers didn't charge a premium for "part exchange" in all new backs and if the S/H backs they take as part exchange would return to the market, both the base would have been wider and the "part exchange" premium wouldn't exist and the prices would be cheaper and the sales would be higher… My guess is that they don't care about their impact to photography… "I don't give a dime" as Butler said to Scarlet...

[Theodoros]

It shall be interesting to see the response when a full-frame version arrives (no idea when that will be). I think it will be a lot more positive. By that time users have been convinced that CMOS colors can be as good as CCD (hopefully), and then a full-frame version will only provide advantages compared to the full-frame CCD. Except possibly price 

(...and wide angular response that I always complain about, but we haven't seen test results of the IQ250 yet, maybe it's not as bad as I think... that would be a nice surprise)

I wouldn't… whatever impact Cmos will make, it will make it now! …with the "entry" of it. Larger sensor won't affect the perception or rejection of the IQ from the MF users...

[david distefano]

we all (maybe not all) remember the $3,000 tandy computer with 8mb of hard-drive capacity. today's computers for the same price will perform what, 500x better if not more. with all technology through the years, as it improved, the prices have gone down so that more people could own them. the p25 was what $25,000 at introduction. we have seen considerable improvement in the technology of this and other mfdb's as the years have passed, but we have not seen the same drop in price as with other technologies. now don't say well we really have a price drop for mfdb's because for the same price of a p25 you are now getting better technology. yes we are but at the same price. in other technologies we get a better product at a lower price. would hasselblad, and phase one sell more mfdb's at a lower price by bringing in more photographers into the mf arena? yes, would they be profitable at lower prices and larger volume? i believe yes. do they want to increase the market for mfd equipment? i think not. phase one has done a very good job of being profitable, by mf photographers consider p1 the rr of db's. hasselblad has made mistakes but i think that with the new ceo they can turn it around and become real competition to p1. someone earlier said that keeping the price high sets a bling standard. i think in some ways that plays into the equation. i think though that a company such as sony who is manufacturing the sensors could decide that there is a cry for many photographers who would like to shoot mf but at these prices are not able to. there is a need for an entry level mfdb. to say, well if you can't afford a new one there is always the used market is insulting. many people like the idea of owning brand new. i don't mind buying used from reputable dealers such as doug and steve because i know they will stand behind the product. canon and nikon and sony all have entry level cameras to make these customers theirs for future sales of better cameras and lenses. i think a bare bones mfdb such as the hasselblad cfv-50 which sells for $17,000 would bring in many new photographers to the mf family.

[eronald]

This is probably the widest read MF forum, and I think people generally feel unhappy with the absence of a value proposition in this market.
If Doug and Steve tell us they have no problems selling Ferraris, I say "Good luck, couldn't happen to nicer guys, enjoy the results of your work, live well, invite me to your parties!"
If Phase tells me there can be no alternative to Ferrari pricing because this product is so difficult to make and needs such expensive components, well forgive me, as an electronic engineer I ROTFLMAO*.

I will paraphrase  a verse of Herbert, and dedicate it Phase One:

Here lies a fallen God,
His fall was not a small one
His people built him a pedestal
A narrow and a tall one.

Edmund

* Roll on the floor laughing my ass off.

[Theodoros]

This is probably the widest read MF forum, and I think people generally feel unhappy with the absence of a value proposition in this market.
If Doug and Steve tell us they have no problems selling Ferraris, I say "Good luck, couldn't happen to nicer guys, enjoy the results of your work, live well, invite me to your parties!"
If Phase tells me there can be no alternative to Ferrari pricing because this product is so difficult to make and needs such expensive components, well forgive me, as an electronic engineer I ROTFLMAO*.

I will paraphrase  a verse of Herbert, and dedicate it Phase One:

Here lies a fallen God,
His fall was not a small one
His people built him a pedestal
A narrow and a tall one.

Edmund

* Roll on the floor laughing my ass off.

Well said… I remember during the 80s when I bought my first MF system (Bronica ETRS)… There were 'blads and Rolleis around and there were Bronicas and Mamyias… Would a car market survive with Ferraris and Porsches only?

[Manoli]

Steve Hendrix / Doug Peterson

Marginally off-topic but nevertheless quite relevant to the ongoing discussion:
Is the PhaseOne guarantee on new backs now 'world-wide' or is it still region-specific ?

[Dan Wells]

I'd love to see someone (Fuji?) do a "Texas Leica" with this sensor... If the sensor is similar in cost to the 645D sensor (I agree with the folks who say that has to be ~$1000 in quantity, or Pentax couldn't sell the camera at $9000), that opens up an option for an overgrown X-Pro1 at $8000. Still expensive? Yes, it is, but it is a 50 MP large-sensor camera that is SMALLER and LIGHTER than most pro DSLRs. If Fuji really wants to go crazy, they could include an electronic mechanism that tilts the sensor in response to a control - since there's no mirror, it's relatively easy. Suddenly, you have back tilt (and swing?). Toss the screen from a top-end smartphone on it (the best phone screens can't cost more than $100 at most), and you have the 21st century take on a Linhof Technica at the same time as the old Fuji rangefinders? It's perfectly handholdable with the eye-level finder (probably a good EVF), and, when tossed on a tripod (and it doesn't even need an especially heavy one), it's an electronic view camera. Shift would be trickier than tilt, because you'd need a lot of room inside to shift the big sensor, and the lenses would need a ton of coverage.

                               -Dan

[Theodoros]

I'd love to see someone (Fuji?) do a "Texas Leica" with this sensor... If the sensor is similar in cost to the 645D sensor (I agree with the folks who say that has to be ~$1000 in quantity, or Pentax couldn't sell the camera at $9000), that opens up an option for an overgrown X-Pro1 at $8000. Still expensive? Yes, it is, but it is a 50 MP large-sensor camera that is SMALLER and LIGHTER than most pro DSLRs. If Fuji really wants to go crazy, they could include an electronic mechanism that tilts the sensor in response to a control - since there's no mirror, it's relatively easy. Suddenly, you have back tilt (and swing?). Toss the screen from a top-end smartphone on it (the best phone screens can't cost more than $100 at most), and you have the 21st century take on a Linhof Technica at the same time as the old Fuji rangefinders? It's perfectly handholdable with the eye-level finder (probably a good EVF), and, when tossed on a tripod (and it doesn't even need an especially heavy one), it's an electronic view camera. Shift would be trickier than tilt, because you'd need a lot of room inside to shift the big sensor, and the lenses would need a ton of coverage.

                               -Dan

Even the most expensive MF sensor is well under 1000 Dan… Even the most expensive 24x36mm sensor is no more than 100 nowadays…

[gerald.d]

we all (maybe not all) remember the $3,000 tandy computer with 8mb of hard-drive capacity. today's computers for the same price will perform what, 500x better if not more. with all technology through the years, as it improved, the prices have gone down so that more people could own them. the p25 was what $25,000 at introduction. we have seen considerable improvement in the technology of this and other mfdb's as the years have passed, but we have not seen the same drop in price as with other technologies. now don't say well we really have a price drop for mfdb's because for the same price of a p25 you are now getting better technology. yes we are but at the same price. in other technologies we get a better product at a lower price. would hasselblad, and phase one sell more mfdb's at a lower price by bringing in more photographers into the mf arena? yes, would they be profitable at lower prices and larger volume? i believe yes. do they want to increase the market for mfd equipment? i think not. phase one has done a very good job of being profitable, by mf photographers consider p1 the rr of db's. hasselblad has made mistakes but i think that with the new ceo they can turn it around and become real competition to p1. someone earlier said that keeping the price high sets a bling standard. i think in some ways that plays into the equation. i think though that a company such as sony who is manufacturing the sensors could decide that there is a cry for many photographers who would like to shoot mf but at these prices are not able to. there is a need for an entry level mfdb. to say, well if you can't afford a new one there is always the used market is insulting. many people like the idea of owning brand new. i don't mind buying used from reputable dealers such as doug and steve because i know they will stand behind the product. canon and nikon and sony all have entry level cameras to make these customers theirs for future sales of better cameras and lenses. i think a bare bones mfdb such as the hasselblad cfv-50 which sells for $17,000 would bring in many new photographers to the mf family.

For as long as I can remember (and I had my first home computer in the early-80's), a decent performing PC has cost around $1500, and an exceptional one, $5-10k.

It's ludicrous to compare their relative price/performance ratio over time, and totally irrelevant to compare them with pretty much any other consumer product, because Moore's law simply doesn't apply.

[Manoli]

As regards to your comment about well heeled amateurs being more concerned with "bling", than with readily identifiable technological improvements … perhaps you should be throwing out that insult somewhere else.

Gerald/

You're back!  Just for the record,
I was referring specifically to the IQ250 and the title of this thread. T.Dascalos got it right in #45 as did the OP in #64. As for my 'bling' post being 'insulting' - It did not impugn Steve Hendrix's integrity in any way but was a comment on PhaseOne's ethos.

Many have expressed disquiet in the past. 'It's about the principle'. Remember ? In essence it's probably not so different this time round ...
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=80363.msg655085#msg655085

[gerald.d]

Gerald/

You're back!  Just for the record,
I was referring specifically to the IQ250 and the title of this thread. T.Dascalos got it right in #45 as did the OP in #64. As for my 'bling' post being 'insulting' - It did not impugn Steve Hendrix's integrity in any way but was a comment on PhaseOne's ethos.

Many have expressed disquiet in the past. 'It's about the principle'. Remember ? In essence it's probably not so different this time round ...
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=80363.msg655085#msg655085

I've never been away.

You are invoking the mother of all non-sequiturs there.

The specific instance of Phase One placing a different trade-in value on an IQ180 (to the tune of $7K) depending on whether a customer is looking to move to an IQ260 or IQ280 has, to be perfectly blunt, bugger all relevance to this discussion.