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Author Topic: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting  (Read 65638 times)

torger

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #140 on: January 22, 2014, 03:16:47 pm »

As for the much-vaunted Liveview...

A good liveview is no easy task for sure. I learnt live view via Canon, and afterwards I've realized that few succeed making liveview as good as them. As far as I understand Canon's work with video features has contributed to the nice live view. Canon not only have good for focusing, they have live exposure setting update so what you see on live view is very close to the look of the image when you press the shutter, quite useful in their compact cameras.

Concerning thermal noise I think CMOS will have less problems than CCDs, ie there will be considerably less inherent issues with liveview than the "live video" hacks made for CCDs.

But there will probably be a few iterations until live view is as good as say Canon's. For tech cameras it can be a game changer; many avoid view cameras like my beloved Linhof Techno because they find ground glass to difficult or inprecise, but with live view the greater flexibility and the ~€1000 you save per lens (lens boards are a lot cheaper than helical mounts, especially those with tilt feature) could greatly boost the popularity.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 03:21:21 pm by torger »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #141 on: January 22, 2014, 03:26:48 pm »

Hi,

The D3X uses the same converters as the Sony Alpha 900, my understanding is the Nikon D3X has longer integration times in 14 bit mode which also yield 2 FPS. Both are Wilkinson types, where integration time determines precision. Having 6000 ADC working in parallell gives long integration times. So Nikon uses longer integration times for higher precision readout, yielding a slower frame rate.

Best regards
Erik


It is a trade-off. On chip conversion can only have so much space, power and complexity. Getting the analog signals out of the chip indeed adds its share of problems but, given enough care (that is: $$$ for the design…) it can be quite good indeed. There must be a reason why the big telescopes which costs immense sums of money still use CCDs.

There has been a camera with a cmos sensor and an external converter, BTW: the Nikon D3x. It uses the same sensor than the Sony A900 but rumour is that Nikon replaced the converters by external ones (and uses 14 bits instead of 12).
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eronald

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #142 on: January 22, 2014, 03:31:40 pm »

Hi,

The D3X uses the same converters as the Sony Alpha 900, my understanding is the Nikon D3X has longer integration times in 14 bit mode which also yield 2 FPS. Both are Wilkinson types, where integration time determines precision. Having 6000 ADC working in parallell gives long integration times. So Nikon uses longer integration times for higher precision readout, yielding a slower frame rate.

Best regards
Erik



or you can switch the camera into crop mode and get a huge frame rate. The problem with the D3x is that the CFA is not as good as it could be.

Edmund
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jerome_m

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #143 on: January 22, 2014, 03:31:58 pm »

I don't care about any of this shit.  Quantum efficiancy blah blah fucking blah.  Where the rubber meets the road is what is important.  If I could have had a back that produced a clean 1600 - 2000iso in 2008, when we started in motion and I lit everything with ARRI Fresnel's and HMIs, I would have kept using the backs.  At the time the only option was the P65+ using sensor plus.  The fuck if I was going to spend $40k for a 15mpx file for a still image, which in terms of ad production work, is an after thought.  I had already sold my P30+ (same chip as the H31?) to spend copious amounts of money on Red stuff, which actually returned the investment quickly, even in the depths of the recession.

And no, I'm not excited about CMOS.  I think it will be different.  If it does make a clean file at 1600 - 2000iso, it re-opens the door to MF for many professional ad shooters.  I think that's great.

The quantum efficiency shit means, in a nutshell, that you will not get a clean file at 3200 iso. Or that you may get a clean file, but with the smearing effects of noise reduction.

And your average max lens aperture will still be f/3.5-f/4.0. MF lenses are slow.
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BJL

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #144 on: January 22, 2014, 03:34:52 pm »

It is a trade-off. On chip conversion can only have so much space, power and complexity. Getting the analog signals out of the chip indeed adds its share of problems but, given enough care (that is: $$$ for the design…) it can be quite good indeed. There must be a reason why the big telescopes which costs immense sums of money still use CCDs.

There has been a camera with a cmos sensor and an external converter, BTW: the Nikon D3x. It uses the same sensor than the Sony A900 but rumour is that Nikon replaced the converters by external ones (and uses 14 bits instead of 12).

1) Kodak/TrueSense and Teledyne-Dalsa have been working on improving their CCDs for a very long time and still have far higher read noise than CMOS sensors, so I doubt it is easy as you think.

2) Active pixel CMOS sensors are coming to astronomy now: Canon has make some, and Teledyne-Dalsa now makes very large and custom-sized CMOS sensors for such uses. Meanwhile, the CCDs used in telescopes do not have inherently lower noise or inherently higher DR; quite the contrary. Telescope sensors reduce dark noise by active cooling, and achieve very high per pixel DR by having huge photo-sites; both equally possible with CMOS sensors. The persistence of CCDs in astronomy is probably for the same reasons as in MF and medical imaging: the initial cost of changing to CMOS is a great barrier for lower volume products, and the simpler full frame transfer CCD design has lower overheads when designing and putting a new model into production, and so are more cost effective to make in small quantities. The recent rise of lower-volume active pixel CMOS sensors (like the CMOSIS one of the Leica M 240 and now this one for Hasselblad) suggests to me that the cost barriers are coming down, and if so, CMOS will soon spread into many of the areas where CCDs survive for now.

3) The active pixel CMOS sensor in the D3X still uses on-sensor change gain as described in my previous post, and this is a major factor in the low noise advantage of active pixel CMOS sensors. if it does anything off-boardm it is only ADC (which Canon still does off-board with its CMOS sensors.) Anyway, AFAIK that "off-board ADC in the D3X" is only a rumor; another explanation is that the D3X simply adds the option of a lower ADC ramping speed in its column-parallel ADCs to get its 14-bit output at a lower frame rate.
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Theodoros

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #145 on: January 22, 2014, 03:41:18 pm »

I don't care about any of this shit. …..blah blah fucking blah. ….The fuck if I was going to spend $40k….

;D  :D  LOL….  ???  :P
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #146 on: January 22, 2014, 03:55:24 pm »

Hi,

Folklore says Alpha 900 has better colour than D3X, I cannot say as I have never owned a Nikon digital camera.

I did a lot of shooting with my P45+ and Sony Alpha 99 recently and don't see a lot of difference in colour using the same processing and custom DCP-profiles.

This page covers some ground, based on just one image, but represent pretty well my experience: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/80-my-mfd-journey-summing-up?start=1

Best regards
Erik

or you can switch the camera into crop mode and get a huge frame rate. The problem with the D3x is that the CFA is not as good as it could be.

Edmund
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jerome_m

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #147 on: January 22, 2014, 03:57:57 pm »

1) Kodak/TrueSense and Teledyne-Dalsa have been working on improving their CCDs for a very long time and still have far higher read noise than CMOS sensors, so I doubt it is easy as you think.

I never said it is easy, on the contrary I said it increases the price considerably.

Quote
2) Active pixel CMOS sensors are coming to astronomy now: Canon has make some, and Teledyne-Dalsa now makes very large and custom-sized CMOS sensors for such uses. Meanwhile, the CCDs used in telescopes do not have inherently lower noise or inherently higher DR; quite the contrary. Telescope sensors reduce dark noise by active cooling, and achieve very high per pixel DR by having huge photo-sites; both equally possible with CMOS sensors. The persistence of CCDs in astronomy is probably for the same reasons as in MF and medical imaging: the initial cost of changing to CMOS is a great barrier for lower volume products, and the simpler full frame transfer CCD design has lower overheads when designing and putting a new model into production, and so are more cost effective to make in small quantities. The recent rise of lower-volume active pixel CMOS sensors (like the CMOSIS one of the Leica M 240 and now this one for Hasselblad) suggests to me that the cost barriers are coming down, and if so, CMOS will soon spread into many of the areas where CCDs survive for now.

Possibly, but if there were so much to be gained, it would have been made earlier. I think I did not express what I meant clearly enough: there certainly are possible theoretical gains in having the converters as near to the sensels as possible and cmos sensors try to capitalise on these gains. It is just that these gains are not as large as people fantasise about. Here people talk about MF backs being only good at base iso 50 or 100 and hope for "clean iso 1600", a four stop increase. On dpreview people write about new cameras being as good at iso 6400 as old ones were at 800, a three stop increase. I think that this is wishful thinking.

My estimate between the 2007 ccd H3D-31 and the 2012 D800 is, considering the smaller pixels, that we had maybe a one stop increase. It is remarkable and certainly better than nothing, but not groundbreaking.


Quote
3) The active pixel CMOS sensor in the D3X still uses on-sensor change gain as described in my previous post, and this is a major factor in the low noise advantage of active pixel CMOS sensors. if it does anything off-boardm it is only ADC (which Canon still does off-board with its CMOS sensors.) Anyway, AFAIK that "off-board ADC in the D3X" is only a rumor; another explanation is that the D3X simply adds the option of a lower ADC ramping speed in its column-parallel ADCs to get its 14-bit output at a lower frame rate.

Yep, Erik suggested so much. That would be a very clever trick indeed, but would only provide real gains if the ramp is accurate enough.
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eronald

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #148 on: January 22, 2014, 04:09:17 pm »

1) Kodak/TrueSense and Teledyne-Dalsa have been working on improving their CCDs for a very long time and still have far higher read noise than CMOS sensors, so I doubt it is easy as you think.


Actually, I think they had back-illuminated thingies as a solution for their custom designs.

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #149 on: January 22, 2014, 04:10:53 pm »

Hi,

Here are 50 ISO samples from one of my shots on P45+ and Sony Alpha 99 SLT. Let's not forget that the P45+ sensor has twice the size. Both images processed in LR5 with identical settings and both "pushed" 4EV . P45+ on the left and Sony Alpha on the right. Noisereduction was set to zero but sharpening was high on both. Same sharpening on both images.


The raw histograms calculated by Rawdigger also tell a story. The red channel on the P45+ goes down to zero, so it may seem it has a wide dynamic range. In reality what we see is all sensor noise, the lowest real signal is probably around 30 counts,  what is below is simply readout noise. Both histograms are on logarithmic scale P45+ left and Sony Alpha 99 on the right.

Best regards
Erik


I never said it is easy, on the contrary I said it increases the price considerably.

Possibly, but if there were so much to be gained, it would have been made earlier. I think I did not express what I meant clearly enough: there certainly are possible theoretical gains in having the converters as near to the sensels as possible and cmos sensors try to capitalise on these gains. It is just that these gains are not as large as people fantasise about. Here people talk about MF backs being only good at base iso 50 or 100 and hope for "clean iso 1600", a four stop increase. On dpreview people write about new cameras being as good at iso 6400 as old ones were at 800, a three stop increase. I think that this is wishful thinking.

My estimate between the 2007 ccd H3D-31 and the 2012 D800 is, considering the smaller pixels, that we had maybe a one stop increase. It is remarkable and certainly better than nothing, but not groundbreaking.


Yep, Erik suggested so much. That would be a very clever trick indeed, but would only provide real gains if the ramp is accurate enough.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 06:30:35 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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BJL

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #150 on: January 22, 2014, 04:20:03 pm »

I never said it is easy, on the contrary I said it increases the price considerably.
Given the evidence that two companies making sensors for customers (like the military and satellite makers) for whom sensor cost is not much of a barrier, I doubt that increased cost is the reason why CCD's silt such at read noise command to CMOS sensors. Do you care to comment on the fundamental technical advantages of active pixel CMOS sensor design such as early amplification that active pixel CMOS sensor designs offer?

Possibly, but if there were so much to be gained, it would have been made earlier.
If there is not much to be gained, why is it being done now? Note that CMOS sensors are not cheaper, so that myth is not a reason.  I have offered one likely reason for why it was not done till recently: inertia (they already had CCD expertise) and the higher cost barriers for CMOS than for CCD in lower volume products.

Yep, Erik suggested so much. That would be a very clever trick indeed, but would only provide real gains if the ramp is accurate enough.
Ramping the voltage at a lower speed is not a "very clever trick", it is just a standard feature of this type of ADC: there is a trade-off between operating speed and accuracy. Note that subsequent models of Sony's sensors also give 14-bit with their on-board column parallel ADCs.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 04:26:23 pm by BJL »
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BJL

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #151 on: January 22, 2014, 04:22:44 pm »

Actually, I think they had back-illuminated thingies as a solution for their custom designs.

Edmund
I have never heard of back-illumination used in anything other than small sensors, 2/3" and smaller, probably because the needed thinning of the substrate makes the sensors more fragile, and this problem increases with chip size. Do you have any references on back-illumination being used in larger sensors?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 04:26:54 pm by BJL »
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eronald

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #152 on: January 22, 2014, 04:26:28 pm »

I have never heard of back-illumination used in anything other than small sensors, 2/3" and smaller, probably because the needed thinning of the substrate to makes the sensors more fragile, and this problem increases with size. Do you have any references on back-illumination being used in larger sensors?

I know it was used in some of the Mars probe sensors, and those cannot afford to be over fragile, but maybe they were small.

Do a Google search - large back-illuminated custom designs are known; I don't really know whether they are that rare or what the real cost-point is compared to standard off-the-shelf parts.

Also, it is hard to know what "off the shelf" means these days because defense contractors are probably prohibited from publishing the specs of even the widely employed imaging components found in airborne military devices. I think drones are now probably deployed in a greater number than MF cameras, although both seem to be regular visitors of ... marriages.

Edmund
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 04:35:15 pm by eronald »
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Vladimirovich

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #153 on: January 22, 2014, 04:29:35 pm »

I know it was used in some of the Mars probe sensors, and those cannot afford to be over fragile, but maybe they were small.

Edmund

once sensor is manufactured is can be attached to a more solid substrate behind ... so that fragility matters during manufacturing/assembly - not during when assembled component works
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #154 on: January 22, 2014, 04:31:42 pm »

Hi,

With regard to CCD used in Astronomy, it is usually cooled with liquid nitrogen, -196 C, as far as I understand. My understanding is that astronomers also switch to CMOS. Anyway, astronomy is a bit different from photography.

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 06:06:37 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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BJL

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #155 on: January 22, 2014, 04:37:42 pm »

I know it was used in some of the Mars probe sensors, and those cannot afford to be over fragile, but maybe they were small.
The Mars rover sensors are indeed fairly small, and also rather old tech due to the long lead time for these projects. It is the Kodak KAI-2020, 15mm diagonal CCD (video needed, so interline rather than full frame type CCD):
http://www.truesenseimaging.com/markets/scientific/31-KAI-2020
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/08/08/Curiosity-interview-with-Malin-Space-Science-Systems-Mike-Ravine
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 04:44:41 pm by BJL »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #156 on: January 22, 2014, 04:39:29 pm »

Hi,

Sony uses 14 bits on single shot and 12 bits in continous modes.

Best regards
Erik

Note that subsequent models of Sony's sensors also give 14-bit with their on-board column parallel ADCs.
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BJL

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #157 on: January 22, 2014, 04:40:50 pm »

once sensor is manufactured is can be attached to a more solid substrate behind ... so that fragility matters during manufacturing/assembly - not during when assembled component works
That "behind" is the side that the light comes from in a back-illuminated design, the side away from the wiring on the "front" of the chip. So I am not sure about adding a new transparent substrate.

But I agree the problem could be worst during the thinning process.
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BJL

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #158 on: January 22, 2014, 04:43:31 pm »

Sony uses 14 bits on single shot and 12 bits in continous modes.
Thanks Erik: that seems to confirm the fast-slow voltage ramp speed idea at least for more recent cameras, if not for the D3X.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #159 on: January 22, 2014, 04:51:29 pm »

That "behind" is the side that the light comes from in a back-illuminated design, the side away from the wiring on the "front" of the chip. So I am not sure about adding a new transparent substrate.

why transparent ? substrate is in its usual place (the side which is not meant to be illuminated by light) - I mean once sensor is finished it is not hanging in the air no more - they mount it on a substrate, make external wiring, put CFA/microlenses, enclose with AA/IR/UV cut glass on top of everything, be it FSI or BSI... I mean the final sensor assembly - not what is going on when steppers create schematics during the die manufacture
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 05:09:44 pm by Vladimirovich »
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