Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65

[Alessandro_V]

Hello,

my name is Alessandro and this is my first post on this forum. Hello to everybody!
I have been suggested to write here on another forum as, probably, there would have been many more users able to help me; so let me say thank you very much in advance.

So far I have been shooting with a full frame 35mm digital camera but now I have decided it is time to upgrade my equipment and, after researching on internet and talking with some dealers I have shortened my list of possibility down to two options.
The first one is a PhaseOne P65 digital back to be used in conjuction with a camera, that could be a PhaseOne 645DF+ or another...
The second option is a Hasselblad H5D-50 (or 40, depending on the deal I will finally find...).

I guess both are very good cameras but, as it is going to be a very big investment for me, I wanted to gather all the possible information before making a purchase.
Surely I'll ask for a "test drive" of both cameras but I guess that hearing opinions of people that have been using these cameras for more than one day could be equally important.

My open points, so far, are:
- I know the P65 is basically an iq160, or iq260, with much less features but the sensor is exactly the same. Considering that I usually shoot in studio (I shoot fashion) with my camera connected to CaptureOne that's not a big problem for me. Still I don't know if, buying this digital back, I would be investing my money in a tecnology that, nowadays, has been surpassed. On the other hand I couldn't find any information on the Hasselblad backs, are they completely new if compared to the previous models?
- I guess that the bigger size of the P65 would lead to an image more similar to a true Full Frame medium format if compared to the smaller size of the Hasselblad H5D-50 (not to say the 40) sensor. Do you think that those few mm would make a difference in terms of DoF and all those, sensor-connected, issues?
- What I really appreciate of the P65 is the claimed (is it really true?) 12 stop latitude range, on the other hand I couldn't find any other information on the Hasselblad backs.
- I have seen that Hasseblad claims to have a kind of proprietary Color Management  system? Is it a just a series of ICC Profile or it is something different and proprietary of Hasselblad?
- Usually I have seen many more Hasselblad cameras used rather than a purely PhasoOne system, is that just because of the marketing that surrounds these cameras or there are some other serious elements to take into account?
- Do you know any place where I could find some raw files shot with the two cameras? I'd like to see some real images rather than the 8bit tiff that you can download on the Hasselblad website..

This camera is something I am going to work with for many years and so I wish to spend maybe a bit more today but to have something that lasts in time rather than to make some economy and find myself with the need of a new camera in a few years from now.

Thank you very much for your precious help,

my best,


Alessandro

[Doug Peterson]

I've got dozens of sample raws from the 65+ shot in different genres with different lenses. Shoot me an email with what sort of subjects/lenses you'd like and I'll send you links to a few. Full disclosure: I work for the world's largest Phase One dealer (Digital Transitions / NYC) so I'm neither unbiased nor entirely selfless in my offer.

You seem very focused on the sensor and camera. These are absolutely vital to the overall system, but only part of the system.

You should also be exploring the capabilities, speed, support, and performance of the lens and software.

The Schneider LS lenses on the DF+ can sync up to 1/1600th of a second. There are also Phase One D lenses, and Mamiya D, Mamiya AF, and Mamiya TL lenses that can be used on the DF+, and adapters to use Pentacon, Hassy 500, Hassy 200, and a few other random lenses since it has it's own built in focal plane shutter. Some of these lenses are also very very affordable (e.g. a few hundred dollars), and many of them are very good quality - allowing you to fill out a lens line for less (assuming you want more than just the kit lens to start).

In both cases the absolute best image quality and tethering capability/control will be achieved when using the manufacturer's software. Capture One, Phase One's software, is industry leading and considered by many to be superior to, or in the very least a direct rival to LightRoom and Aperture. Many users of Capture One use it for Canon or Nikon, even though they have many other options for those cameras. If you call up a rental studio or digital tech anywhere in the world you're very likely to find they have, use, and know, Capture One.

Finally, when, in a few years you may wish to upgrade your MFD system you should be aware that the DF+ and 65+ are both open-platform components. You can upgrade either the back, or the body, purchase backups or multiples of either, and use them all interchangeably. You can buy a DF+ body off-the-shelf without requiring a trade-in of an older body. You can rent/borrow a body without it needing to be "paired" to your back.

Regarding stops of dynamic range and color management systems: please go shoot actual pictures with each or in the very least look at relevant sample raw files rather than rely on marketing or numerical analysis.

[Doug Peterson]

- I guess that the bigger size of the P65 would lead to an image more similar to a true Full Frame medium format if compared to the smaller size of the Hasselblad H5D-50 (not to say the 40) sensor. Do you think that those few mm would make a difference in terms of DoF and all those, sensor-connected, issues?

A larger sensor does lead to shallower DOF when composing the same frame at the same aperture. This will only matter if you shoot wide-open, since you can simply open up a tad more on the smaller sensor to achieve the same DOF.

Whether the difference is "really important" or "barely worth mentioning" will depend more on you, and your aesthetics, than on the numbers. Real world shooting here is a must. But I also have a variety of raw files shot with a 65+ wide open with a few lenses for you to see what the maximum shallowness achievable is.

[Alessandro_V]

Hello and thank you very much for your swift reply!

Regarding the software I agree with you, Doug, I have a Canon at the moment and I always use CaptureOne when possible, for a number of reasons...
Having said that my idea is to keep using that software when I am shooting...
(I'll send you shortly a PM with my email, thank you very much!!!)

About the sensor dimensions I have not been to precise, sorry...
Apart from dof (and I agree with you, you can tweak the aperture of the lens), from what I know a bigger sensor leads to more a "gradient" color transition, less rumor (larger area but less pixels), etc. My newly-reformulated question is: are all these elements heavily influenced by those few millimeters of difference between these sensor or not? I remember that, at my very beginning, when moving from a Canon 400D (so much time!) to a Caon 5DmkII I noticed a huge improvement (obviously also due to other elements of the camera and tecnology of the time...).

Thank you very much,


Alessandro

[Ken R]

The P65+ offers the best value by far. The image quality is better overall from what I have seen than the 50mp H4/H5's. It also offers a few more pixels and also image area which will give a wider angle of view with any lens. This is valuable if you use wide angles where every mm counts.

Also, Capture One is awesome for tethered work. It is reliable and works amazingly well with CaputurePilot on the iPad/Tablet. You make changes on the computer and those changes can be seen almost immediately on the iPad. That includes image rating (can be done on the iPad as well and it sends the info to the computer) as well image adjustments so everyone working is on the same page. Great workflow.

I have used the Hasselblad software briefly and looked competent but I do not have a lot info/experience on it.

[David Watson]

I agree with Doug.  Given they need and the choice I would go for the Phase One system.  Hasselblad do not permit a back or camera body upgrade on its own if you go for one of their integrated solutions (H3D/H4D/H5D) - you have to pay a very large sum to upgrade the camera in toto.  You can however buy their H4X camera and use that with a Phase One back. There are a lot of used H3D and H4D series Hasselblad cameras on the market at some very low prices so this may be another option to consider.  The Pro Centre in London have a lot of well priced stock.

The Hasselblad lenses IMO are better overall than the lenses offered by Phase One because they all have leaf shutters.  Having said that the Schneider lenses are really nice.

Most people seem to agree that the Phase backs are better than the Hasselblad ones but again most people think that the Hasselblad camera body is a neater and better solution than the Phase equivalent.

Having owned an H3D31, 39 and 50 and an H4D60 I know that they are fine but very expensive camera systems.  I now use a Nikon D800E and I am more than happy with that as a replacement for the Hasselblads.  Finally Nikon and Canon are close to bringing out new pro bodies which may have 50MP + sensors if some rumours are to be believed.

My advice?  I would wait for the new Canon/Nikon offerings but if you really want to try medium format buy a cheap H3D series from the Pro Centre £2995 for a used and guaranteed H3D-39!  Around £4000 with an 80mm lens.  Pro Centre are a Hasselblad subsidiary and offer a six month warranty on all their cameras and lenses.

http://www.procentre.co.uk/sales-secondhand-medium-format-digital.php

[Doug Peterson]

Apart from dof (and I agree with you, you can tweak the aperture of the lens), from what I know a bigger sensor leads to more a "gradient" color transition, less rumor (larger area but less pixels), etc. My newly-reformulated question is: are all these elements heavily influenced by those few millimeters of difference between these sensor or not? I remember that, at my very beginning, when moving from a Canon 400D (so much time!) to a Caon 5DmkII I noticed a huge improvement (obviously also due to other elements of the camera and tecnology of the time...).

I think you'll be so happy with tonality and smoothness and "look" with any of the backs that you're looking at that the difference between a 1.1 crop and 1.0 crop as regards that tonality is

That said, tonal smoothness is perceived by many to be better with a Dalsa sensor (P40+, IQ140, P65+, IQ160, H4D-60, H5D-60) than with a Kodak sensor (P30+, P45+, H_D-40, H_D-50). Again - only your own shooting can tell you if you agree with that.

[ndevlin]

Alessandro,

If you go to MF, go for more than just megapixels. You have to like the way of working that a MF camera involves. It is slower and more limited in what you can do, but the cameras physically give a different view of the world, and working with them changes the way you work.  Only you will know if that's for you. 

The best thing to do is to try out the systems with reputable dealers, like Doug.  Just as there is generally no real difference btw a Canon and a Nikon point and shoot or aps-c camera, beyond its physical handling, the real difference btw Hassy and Phase is also in feel and handling. 

Find out what you like, and then get the best used price possible.  39MP back are getting dirt cheap on both sides of the aisle, and are probably what you should look at.

Yes, the Hassy backs have a clunkier interface.  I've been shooting with an H4D-60 , and once I got over the whole 'wow this is like running Windows 98 on a 486 machine' feeling (common to Phase as well), I haven't found that the sub-optimal interface bothers me that much. 

One thing that I think matters: Truefocus on the Hassy system is valuable and helps capture some of that small difference that 'makes' MF - in particular to portraiture work.  Less relevant for Landscapes.  For landscape work DO NOT buy non-leaf-shutter lenses. You will suffer shutter-induced blur.

Good luck,

- N.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

A good point. On the other hand I find it intriguing that the very same shutter used in the Phase One cameras has no vibration on the Alpa FPS or the Hartblei HCam. I am a bit confused and have no good explanation.

I have seen FP-shutter related shake on my Pentax 67, so I know the problem.

Interestingly the problem "went away" when I upgraded my Manfrotto CB55 to a Velbon Sherpa Pro 630. The Velbon was one third the weight, but I guess it was much better made ;-)

Best regards
Erik

Agreed.

And if you do buy leaf shutter lenses then make sure they can be used in isolation from any focal plane shutter.

[David Watson]

Just thinking about the hit you must have taken on those systems brings tears to my eyes.

Well some were bought used but the 31 and 39 were bought new and it was a real wrench taken my kids out of school to pay for them.   

[bcooter]

Well some were bought used but the 31 and 39 were bought new and it was a real wrench taken my kids out of school to pay for them.   

This is the best line I've ever read here.

BC

[Steve Hendrix]

Hi Alessandro -

The general sentiment of the thread has been that the P65+, perhaps paired with an H4X may be your best path forward, given that:

*You already use Capture One for your Canon and are fond of it
*Your plan is to shoot mostly tethered (which means the crappy LCD of the P65+ won't matter much)

I would concur this to be a strong consideration for you.

However - as others have emphasized, trying the products out makes a difference - especially for first time buyers. The performance and features of a camera are objective elements but not in how one uses them, values them, likes them, and subjectively responds to them (in tangible and intangible ways). What is a better camera? A Linhof or an Arca Swiss? A Canon or a Nikon? A Panasonic or a Samsung?   

If one is better than the other, then why doesn't the other just fade away?

And if the numbers show a majority of users prefer a product, is that product then for you? Do you prefer what the majority prefer or what you prefer?
*******************************

I should also disclose that I am not biased toward or away from any particular medium format system - we sell them all and share the pros and cons of each frankly.

With that said, for the sake of others who are curious about the products being discussed, there were some unanswered questions about the Hasselblad system:

- The dynamic range of the current crop of sensors may vary, but if so, not by much. I dug out all the older digital back datasheets in my archive and found that nearly every digital back introduced since 2000 that listed a DR Spec showed at least 12 f/stops (except some older Sinarbacks and the Leaf Valeo 6). Darned if I can find a Hasselblad datasheet showing DR (guess they haven't picked up on that trick!). I would expect them to be similar to the 12 stop range.

- The Hasselblad Natural Color is a term Hasselblad uses to describe their single input digital back profile, which is their unique approach, contrary to the several Phase One optional profiles and the many Leaf profiles. Regardless of the mumbo jumbo, the color out of the Hasselblad products is very good, especially for skin tones.

http://press.hasselblad.com/media/1096/2010-09-22_background_hncs_en.pdf

- Where you most often see Hasselblad cameras in use is in locations where more fashion photography is occurring (often with Phase One or Leaf backs!). This is because the Hasselblad H system and lenses are popular for their ergonomics, auto focus, sharpness, and leaf shutter capability for every lens from 24mm to 300. They also are widely available at rental centers in most major cities.

- While Phase One almost always has aggressive upgrade programs, I think the idea that having to upgrade the camera and the digital back with Hasselblad is more expensive doesn't always hold water. Example - today:

$32,667 - IQ260/DF+ Camera -  Upgrade from P30+/AFD-II
$23,400 - H5D-60 - Upgrade from H3D-31

- While there is some "pairing" that goes on with Hasselblad HXD cameras, I think the idea that you're kind of stuck for backup is a bit overblown. Tonight I shot an H5D Digital Back on H4 and H3 bodies, I shot an H4D-50 Digital Back on H3 and H5 bodies, and I shot an H3D-II 31 Digital Back on H5 and H4 bodies. What is lost is the extra step of calibrating the sensor to the camera body for critical focus precision when mixing and matching. But I don't know that it is anymore of an issue than when you pair an off the shelf Phase One or Leaf digital back with a Mamiya/Phase One DF/DF+ camera (or a Contax 645, for that matter).

Speaking of Leaf - what marvelous skin tones. For someone shooting fashion, there's no reason to not consider Leaf as well. In fact, we've had some pretty attractive Leaf Credo 60's come through not too far from the P65+ price neighborhood in recent weeks - and this maintains the Capture One workflow for you, should you find Phocus too jarring a change.

The nice part? You have a lot of attractive choices.

The interesting part - to me - is that you see it as an either or. That could be relevant. Most of my medium format clients also possess alternative cameras they rely on. I see this single camera approach more often with 35mm DSLR users. Sometimes - but not always - that is an indication of where your heart is really at.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
 

[Alessandro_V]

Hello everybody and thank you very much for you super useful support! I really appreciate!

To be honest, on one hand I am now even more confused because I see how there are other solutions, even cheaper, that I haven't considered before.
On the other and I am very happy to see how there are some combinations of cameras and backs that I previously did not know and sounds very interesting to me. Thanks!

As an Italian philosopher once said..."the task of today cultured men is to seed doubts rather then gathering certainty"...and this is what is happening here  (I hope I translated everything correctly) Thanks!

Going back to cameras and sensors...

I already have a Mamiya RZ67 with a couple of lenses and, in the past, I really really appreciated the medium format workflow (even if I was shooting film rather than digital) and so I am sure I will love a medium format digital camera and it's way of working...

As I said, most of the time, I work in studio and, differently to many fashion photographer I usually go for continuos light and pretty long exposure (I don't mind going up to a second...). For that reason I guess that a leaf shutter would be foundamental for me: I remember a lot of picture taken without the mirror lock-up feature in the RZ67 to be blurred.
The PhaseOne camera should have both shutters (I mean, obviously the leaf one is in the lens) and give priority to the leaf shutter right?
What about the Hasselblad?

I have to say that I am very tempted by mounting the P65 back on an Hasselblad camera (I did not know of the H4X, thanks for that! It doen't exist a H5X right?)...
One thing that I did not get is: if I buy a P65 back can I mount it on an Hassy and then on a PhaseOne without any problem or is it impossible and once I have chosen a platform I have to remain with that?

Also, from what I understood so far if I go for an Hasselblad system (regarless of the back if considering the H4X) I would then have to stick "just" with Hasselblad lenses, right? While if I go for a PhaseOne camera I could mount a bigger variety of lenses...

One thing that I did not know and on what I am thinking a lot is the fact that there are some H3D so cheap (I mean, compared to the other cameras) on the used market.
Do you think the difference in price is justified by the others cameras features? As I said in my first post I am more positive about spending more today but to have a camera that last in time rather than buying something rather cheap that will not satisfy my need anymore in a couple of years...
Still, the price I have seen are very tempting and I am sure those are great cameras as well...

Thanks a lot also for the other digital back suggestions (Credo, etc...).
As I did not gather those many information so far on these backs I postpone my questions on them... 

Finally,
I did not know anything about these 50MP Canon or Nikon cameras...
Apart from the megapixel, that is probably the last reason why I am upgrading to Medium Format, I don't think that, phisically, these bodies can reach the same results that can be achieved with a MF Digital Back...am I right?
Obviously that would be very interesting as I already have plenty of Canon lenses and so on, but....I don't know...Is it something sure?

[jerome_m]

Although I am not a pro, I bought one of these cheap second hand H3D, so maybe I can answer a few questions.

First of all: I have a RB67. I would not use it with a digital back because of the large difference in film format. Some people may disagree, so take that as a personal opinion: I feel that the lack of true wide angles and relative difficulty in using the viewfinder for a format much smaller than the one it was designed for makes it an unattractive proposition.

Second: the camera that is best for you depends a lot on what you mainly shoot. The Hasselblad key advantages are, in my opinion, for product photography. Even an old H3D will run circles around newer cameras when used in the following manner:
-with the new HC 50mm-II and macro adapter lens mounted on the HTS (Hasselblad Tilt-Shift adapter)
-tethered to Phocus for precise on screen focussing
-pictures treated in Phocus which will automatically correct for color variation and optical defects, even with tilt or shift. That latest advantage alone is enormous if your job involves 100s of pictures.

In a nutshell, the Hasselblad system:
-is integrated with its software as a complete solution
-has a great line of lenses, all having a central shutter (and many can be had for a good price second hand)
-has a key advantage of more accurate AF for portrait (only H4D and H5D)
-has very well designed cameras (e.g. viewfinder).

If you are interested in a 50 Mpix model, it only existed with the H3DII. The older H3D stopped at 39 mpix. As to the difference between the old H3DII and the more modern H4D/H5D:
-the H3DII is slower in displaying an image
-the H3DII screen has a lower resolution, the H3D screen (first model) is small, dark and quite bad.
-no true focus (the focus correction system really useful for portraits).

The 40 mpix backs which you also considered are smaller sensors and use micro-lenses. That doubles their sensitivity (because the lenses concentrate light), but makes them less suited to be used with tilt or shift (e.g. on view cameras). I think that their main uses are for wedding or portrait.

[eronald]

Hi Alessandro,

In MF there are three facets of a system to consider

1. The camera ergonomics. The Phase and Hassy systems are VERY different in practical use and have different lens ranges. In particular Hassy has all central shutters, an interesting tilt/shift adapter, a fairly fast focus system and even this true-focus thingy. The Phase system is basically an improved focal plane shutter Mamiya 645AFD, although it now has a few german-origin central shutter lenses. There are a bunch of fairly cheap old lenses on the used market that can be used with the Mamiya although not all are really suitable for digital. I believe Mamiya and Hassy lenses have a very different look, which may matter to you. None of the MF solutions is anywhere close to 35mm in focus and frame speed and flexibility and lens range.
 
2. The quality of the image files. Everybody agrees both systems are considerably better than 35mm when used at low ISO. However all the chips in the cameras are not equal, there are model to model variations due to the type of sensor chip used, which in my eyes are actually more significant than those between brands.

3. The quality of the software. Phase has its superb C1 solution for general and tethered studio use, Hassy have Phocus. Both of these also work up to a point with 35mm cameras.

Hassy has maybe been underrepresented in the technical discussions on this brand-agnostic forum, there is a manufacturer specific forum somewhere on the net.

Edmund  

[Go Go]

Ciao Alessandro,

I can't really speak to any experience with the Phase product.

I have used the H3D 31 for two years, then moved to the H4D 40 for two years and presently have been shooting an H4D 60 for about a year.

The H software Phocus is constantly being upgraded and tweaked, it is a bit wonky in its use but the colour is superb. Also you need to run Phocus on a machine that has no other apps running and that has a lot of Ram and a very good graphics card installed. If you do this the software will work well.

The H4D cameras have True Focus which really helps when shooting people. H4D 40 is a marvel, it is capable of shooting files at ISO 100 200 and 400 very cleanly and continuously without hitting the buffer. The H4D 60 is really an ISO 50 camera that works at one frame per second. If that matters to you you should take that into consideration.

My only advice would be to use both cameras that you are considering during your normal work flow and evaluate, then decide.

If you are interested, have a peak at what I am doing, it's almost all with the H camera. www.giorgioniro.com

Best,

Giorgio

[Alessandro_V]

Hello and thanks a lot for the new answers!

I'll surely test with my hands both cameras before buying them to be sure the ergonomics and way of working suits me.

As the time passes by I am thinking that, in the casa PhaseOne camera doesn't work for me but I still like the P65, the H4X could be a good option.
Still I can't find many information online! I tried on Hasselblad website but nothing...

Also, is it fundamental to work with Phocus in case of a Hasselblad?
I always seen it in studio paired with CaptureOne and it seemed to work perfectly...

What true focus does more specifically?
Is it featured also on the H4X?

Many many thanks,


Alessandro

[jerome_m]

Still I can't find many information online! I tried on Hasselblad website but nothing...

You can download the user manual for the camera and phocus and even the phocus software itself. That is the best info you can get.

Also, is it fundamental to work with Phocus in case of a Hasselblad?

No, but phocus really has advantages if you shoot tethered with a H camera and back.

What true focus does more specifically?
Is it featured also on the H4X?

True focus is featured on the H4X. It allows you to focus on the eye of the subject and recompose the picture:



http://htv.hasselblad.com/video/using-true-focus-how-and-when-to-use-true-focus

[Nick-T]

Alessandro
The best advice I can give you (long term Hasselblad user) is to put yourself in the hands of Steve Hendrix and the team at Capture integration.

These guys really know the product they sell and stand behind it.

Nick-T

[Alessandro_V]

Thanks a lot for all the useful advices, I'll surely keep everything in consideration!

I will orgazine to rent these cameras to see what better suits me...
If anybody has any other advice I am always here! :-)

Thanks!


Ale