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Author Topic: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65  (Read 29645 times)

henrikfoto

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2013, 08:30:44 am »

I think the Phase one camera body is not even close to the Hasselblad H4/H5.
The Hasselblad feels better, has a better ballance and has the True focus system.

On the other hand, Phase one have better backs and better software I think.

Personally I will wait until Phase one presents their new camera and have a
complete intergrated system. If you buy the Df+ now, you investment will
be lost as soon as Phase one comes out with the DF++ and the DF+++.
They are not even giving a possibillity to upgrade.

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Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2013, 09:18:54 am »

I think the Phase one camera body is not even close to the Hasselblad H4/H5.
The Hasselblad feels better, has a better ballance and has the True focus system.

On the other hand, Phase one have better backs and better software I think.

Personally I will wait until Phase one presents their new camera and have a
complete intergrated system. If you buy the Df+ now, you investment will
be lost as soon as Phase one comes out with the DF++ and the DF+++.
They are not even giving a possibillity to upgrade.

I don't know who your dealer is but we (Digital Transitions) provided upgrade options for the AF to DF and the DF to DF+, notably these upgrades did not require you to be upgrading your digital back. I'll be the first to say they weren't as aggressive as we would have liked to have made them (the most we can afford to do in such cases is break even), but they were quite favorable when compared to e.g. the H2>H4X upgrade or an H4D-40 to H5D-40.

Regarding ergonomics and balance - it's a funny, very personal, thing. I've heard "love" and "hate" uttered by several customers for every major platform. Even the Hy6 which I thought had really nice (and creative) ergonomics and handling I've heard called "an abomination" in regards to ergonomics by a customer who is usually quite laid back.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 09:20:52 am by Doug Peterson »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2013, 12:37:52 am »

Hi,

It may even vary, from time to time.

Best regards
Erik

… I've heard "love" and "hate" uttered by several customers for every major platform. Even the Hy6 which I thought had really nice (and creative) ergonomics and handling I've heard called "an abomination" in regards to ergonomics by a customer who is usually quite laid back. …
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Kagetsu

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2013, 06:55:21 pm »

Hi Alessandro,
I thought I'd pipe up, there's already a bit of information here, but thought I'd throw in my experience with both system.

Firstly, I own an IQ160 and 645DF. I shoot fairly frequently with it, along with a 5D3 and recently an A7r, but have also used the H3D something or other, H4D50 and H5D50 as a friend uses their system.

As far as digital backs go, I would definitely rank the Phase One there, if you're looking at the IQ that is. I'm talking of overall use. It's a pleasure to use in the field when you can't shoot tethered. Tethered shooting is pretty acceptable too, but has the same limitations. I've found my back to freeze frequently and "apparently" is a fairly normal issue to run into on occasion.
The other thing I found shooting tethered was to run into issues with the buffer, but that's more because it shoots faster than the Hass. Generally not an issue though.

I think the new SK lenses are a little hit and miss to be honest.
The 80mm is solid, and works very well with a reasonable result. I don't like the 150mm at all. It's images are a little soft, and frankly the look it gives is not great.
The 110mm lens though, is my favourite lens, bar none, on any system I've used. I can't put my finger on it particularly... just overall it's the most pleasing photographic lens I've used, even a terrible photo looks great with it (this is purely objective though).
Because the relatively small level of focal length difference between the 80 and 110mm, I'll often use the 110mm in place, and step back a little.

But that said, I've had similar issues with Hasselblad lenses too on the H system. Some are hit and miss, though I haven't had enough time with the lengths to determine which one I like or dislike.

As far as bodies go, I prefer the Hasselblad body itself, its only downfall is it doesn't have a focal plane shutter, and thereby limited to the leaf shutter speed (I think it's 1/650th or somewhere around there). This is good for many situations, but can lead to compromise in other situations, which I don't like.

God knows when Phase One is going to release a new body that isn't related to the Mamiya goliath.

As you've already acknowledged, it's better to trial both, and see how it goes.
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2013, 08:49:51 pm »


God knows when Phase One is going to release a new body that isn't related to the Mamiya goliath.

As you've already acknowledged, it's better to trial both, and see how it goes.

+1

Alessandro,

Yes, Phase are leaking they will have a new body.
Yes, Hassy are leaking they have a new sensor coming -presumably also in an improved body.

Unless you have a time travel device, I think it best to assume that the camera you get is the camera you will shoot for the foreseeable future. Which has an advantage - anything that is now on the market can be rented and tested in production - go for it!

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 09:04:56 pm by eronald »
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Joe Towner

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2013, 09:58:02 pm »

Edmund, you missed the best part - both leaks/rumors will also have a price increase with it.

I don't know what wait times are like now, but to get from an announcement to available for demo/rental/purchase can be huge.    Plus there is the possibility that there are issues that will come up, as there are with any new system.

I love my H4D-50, I love working with a Phase setup when it's available.  I also appreciate there are places on the internet where I can ask questions of folks who use the gear in their workflow, and there is a used market for backs, lenses, etc.  Anything radically different from what is available today would limit that feedback.

-Joe
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2013, 12:16:04 am »

Joe,

Actually, smart malicious Nikon fans should start a strong rumor of an imminent SUPERB, FLAWLESS and THOROUGHLY TESTED Canon camera - because such a rumor would kill ... the current sales of an existing Canon model. An interesting line of thought, no? People who master this type of reasoning in ... politics are called spin doctors :)

Edmund


Edmund, you missed the best part - both leaks/rumors will also have a price increase with it.

I don't know what wait times are like now, but to get from an announcement to available for demo/rental/purchase can be huge.    Plus there is the possibility that there are issues that will come up, as there are with any new system.

I love my H4D-50, I love working with a Phase setup when it's available.  I also appreciate there are places on the internet where I can ask questions of folks who use the gear in their workflow, and there is a used market for backs, lenses, etc.  Anything radically different from what is available today would limit that feedback.

-Joe
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 12:20:18 am by eronald »
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Kagetsu

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2013, 12:35:01 am »

Just to add... Living in Australia, and having purchased my IQ with a 645DF, for which I'm still using, and within three months of that purchase and delivery, the 645DF+ came out, and attending one of the Phase one workshops, being told "we get a deal to upgrade automatically"... I was surprised when all I was offered was  the upgrade at full price of the new body.

I've since had the chance to use the +, and it is better, but it's still terrible, considering the price they demand. If the Australian distributors came to the table with a more reasonable upgrade price (hell, if they'd come to the table WITH an upgrade price, not a buy it outright at the same price as everybody else), I'd have no trouble recommending them.
I'm not trying to bad mouth Phase One, but they never responded to my requests for information, nor did they really help me in regards to the camera.

I also know, other countries have a MUCH better sales support team, but I felt and still do feel let down.
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henrikfoto

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2013, 02:10:02 am »

Just to add... Living in Australia, and having purchased my IQ with a 645DF, for which I'm still using, and within three months of that purchase and delivery, the 645DF+ came out, and attending one of the Phase one workshops, being told "we get a deal to upgrade automatically"... I was surprised when all I was offered was  the upgrade at full price of the new body.

I've since had the chance to use the +, and it is better, but it's still terrible, considering the price they demand. If the Australian distributors came to the table with a more reasonable upgrade price (hell, if they'd come to the table WITH an upgrade price, not a buy it outright at the same price as everybody else), I'd have no trouble recommending them.
I'm not trying to bad mouth Phase One, but they never responded to my requests for information, nor did they really help me in regards to the camera.

I also know, other countries have a MUCH better sales support team, but I felt and still do feel let down.



+1
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Quentin

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2013, 07:29:25 pm »

I have a Hassy H5D system.  I think the word "system" is key here because I gained the impression that Hasselblad offered a better thought out system, from back/camera integration, innovations like true focus, lenses integrated with software design, and dedicated accessories like the HTS-1.5 tilt-shift adapter.  Phase produce great backs, of course, but the body is not in my view as good. On the other hand, if you are going to use the back on a technical camera, all that tight integration becomes less important.
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EricWHiss

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2014, 12:57:21 pm »

Phase definitely makes great backs and I like their C1 software the best. Everyone compares the backs and cameras but the software is important too.   It's true that Phase probably has a new camera in the pipeline - will it be announced finally at PMA or Photokina this fall or some other time?  Will it be totally groundbreaking with commensurate cost, or another disappointing warm over of the 645 platform?  When will it be available after announcement, and will they get it right in the first version? I think they went through 3 or 4 iterations on the 645AF body and still many consider it to be not perfect.  I also hope that Hasselblad has a new sensor in the works since all I've seen for a while now from them is the redecorating of small Japanese made cameras.   I think their TrueFocus is a brilliant solution actually and hope the best for them since they had a good body and platform as Quentin has pointed out, but I have to be honest that their path forward seems confusing to me with the discontinuation of the V and cessation of service on older items with no announcements at all for new MF items for a while.

You ask about just Phase and Hasselblad, but there actually is a third alternative - the Rolleiflex Hy6 Mod2 which you could mount Leaf Credo 60 and still use capture one software.    The Rollei has been my choice for many years going back to a 6008AF with phase p20, and mostly for the excellent lenses and viewfinder, but also for the ergonomics which I think are the best  - but I'm biased :-)
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2014, 01:14:41 pm »

Hi,

Hasselblad has a quite interesting product palette, and I feel they often think out of the box, like the Flexbody, Arcbody and now the HTS. There is some info about Hasselblad cooperating with Sony on a new CMOS sensor. The hints may be, non Bayer and electronic shutter, but that may be wishful thinking. It also seems that Hasselblad may have a lower price policy compared to Phase.

Putting the V to rest is probably a rational decision. That system will stay around for a long time anyway. There are a lot of cameras around they are well built and can still be serviced.

Best regards
Erik

Phase definitely makes great backs and I like their C1 software the best. Everyone compares the backs and cameras but the software is important too.   It's true that Phase probably has a new camera in the pipeline - will it be announced finally at PMA or Photokina this fall or some other time?  Will it be totally groundbreaking with commensurate cost, or another disappointing warm over of the 645 platform?  When will it be available after announcement, and will they get it right in the first version? I think they went through 3 or 4 iterations on the 645AF body and still many consider it to be not perfect.  I also hope that Hasselblad has a new sensor in the works since all I've seen for a while now from them is the redecorating of small Japanese made cameras.   I think their TrueFocus is a brilliant solution actually and hope the best for them since they had a good body and platform as Quentin has pointed out, but I have to be honest that their path forward seems confusing to me with the discontinuation of the V and cessation of service on older items with no announcements at all for new MF items for a while.

You ask about just Phase and Hasselblad, but there actually is a third alternative - the Rolleiflex Hy6 Mod2 which you could mount Leaf Credo 60 and still use capture one software.    The Rollei has been my choice for many years going back to a 6008AF with phase p20, and mostly for the excellent lenses and viewfinder, but also for the ergonomics which I think are the best  - but I'm biased :-)
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2014, 04:05:51 pm »

Eric,

I'll believe the existence of a decent Phase body the day I see it. I bought my Phamiya P45+ system in the hopes I would one day see a better body, I sold it with the decision that from now on I am only buying used systems that are known to work. And frankly, we all know about V1.0 of a new thing being trash, but compare today's much improved Phase system and lenses to the 10 years old Rollei or the Contax, and you see the difference between true quality and often-improved mediocrity. In fact the continued bulletproof quality of ancient Phase backs just proves this very point.

As far as I'm concerned Phase have played the "look at our wonderful files, it's an open system, buy in now, there is a better body upgrade just round the corner" game too often. And yes, there actually was one, the Leaf/Rollei, which they zombified/buried. Some sock puppet commented that this was a sound business decision and thus in the interest of their customers who will see a better Phase body. How altruistic!

I wonder whether any of the original Phase back engineers are still around? They might be given the task of finding or making a body that merits the same respect as those backs.

Edmund


Phase definitely makes great backs and I like their C1 software the best. Everyone compares the backs and cameras but the software is important too.   It's true that Phase probably has a new camera in the pipeline - will it be announced finally at PMA or Photokina this fall or some other time?  Will it be totally groundbreaking with commensurate cost, or another disappointing warm over of the 645 platform?  When will it be available after announcement, and will they get it right in the first version? I think they went through 3 or 4 iterations on the 645AF body and still many consider it to be not perfect.  I also hope that Hasselblad has a new sensor in the works since all I've seen for a while now from them is the redecorating of small Japanese made cameras.   I think their TrueFocus is a brilliant solution actually and hope the best for them since they had a good body and platform as Quentin has pointed out, but I have to be honest that their path forward seems confusing to me with the discontinuation of the V and cessation of service on older items with no announcements at all for new MF items for a while.

You ask about just Phase and Hasselblad, but there actually is a third alternative - the Rolleiflex Hy6 Mod2 which you could mount Leaf Credo 60 and still use capture one software.    The Rollei has been my choice for many years going back to a 6008AF with phase p20, and mostly for the excellent lenses and viewfinder, but also for the ergonomics which I think are the best  - but I'm biased :-)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 04:33:00 pm by eronald »
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synn

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2014, 04:45:07 pm »

I have tried the Mamiya 645 AFD iii, the Df and now own the DF+ and I can honestly say, the Df+ might seem like a minor upgrade on paper, but it feels like a whole different beast in hand. Build quality is vastly improved, the tactile feel of the buttons are much better and the AF, while nothing like a 35mm DSLR, is quite fast and locks well. The vertical grip is terrible and overpriced though.

I can easily live with this body for a few years, if that's how long it will take phamiya to launch a new one.
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2014, 06:41:44 pm »

I would still go for Contax 645… 
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EricWHiss

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2014, 03:06:11 pm »

I would still go for Contax 645… 

Long ago when I moved to MF after shooing Leica R with their digital module,  I also looked at the Contax 645 mostly because of the lenses, but the viewfinder wasn't so great and the images I got weren't jumping out at me.  I don't use AF much but it was really slow on the contax.  It just seemed to not fit me.  Then I looked at the RZ, and I still have one, but its like a dinosaur and not very smart plus a bit big.   Then I found the Rollei 6008AF.   Truth is it was weird at first, because the controls were all placed differently, but viewfinder was the best I had seen and the lenses - Wow! - they were better than the Leica R to me and and I kept using the camera.  After a few weeks the controls started to click with me, and I realized how great the ergonomics of the camera were.  The camera became transparent to me - now I just think of the image I want,  and the camera works like an extension of me and is not in the way.  This is how it should be, whatever you buy, the camera should not get in the way of what you want to do or take your concentration away - it should work like reflex.   The Leica R was like that, but I never got there with any of my Canon's - or the RZ or the DF - somehow I had to always take my eyes away from the camera and study it to adjust some setting.   It's amazing with the Hy6+AFi-ii 12  I don't even have to take my eyes away or change hand position to move the sensor from portrait to landscape or vice versa.  Just really fantastic ergonomics - nothing slows you down. 
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JV

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2014, 04:30:10 pm »

I would still go for Contax 645… 

The Contax 645 is a bit overpriced on the used market IMHO.

Also, you would need to buy everything twice since from 2015 onwards the availability of spare parts will become more and more problematic.

And I have the impression that lenses like the 80mm are much harder to find since the availability of the adapter for the Leica S.

Cameras like the Contax 645 or the Hasselblad V are great cameras but investing today I would not choose them as the base for a digital platform.
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2014, 06:09:18 pm »

Yet, with Hass H and Mamyia 645 being the only alternatives around… it's no surprise why Contax S/H prices are high… It seems that demand keeps them high… OTOH, Rollei 6xxx could be an alternative, but "good luck" in finding an MFDB for it and if you do, "good luck" in being able to de-touch it and fit it on a view camera or a Fuji GX680. Another thing to consider is the Leica S and their recent C645 fully dedicated lens adapter… It makes investing on Contax gear safer than ever, even if your camera ever fails, you can sell your back (in NO TIME since backs supply for Contax is less than the demand) at a better price than another fit and use a Leica instead of investing on another body and upgrade the back. Of course things may change if Leica comes out with the (rumoured to be next) fully dedicated adapter for Rollei (6xxx & hy6) lenses. This surely will convince many to keep their (superb) Rollei lenses and look after their system until the camera dies and then replace it with a Leica.
  If I was after a P65+ back (I'm not I'm satisfied with what I now have) currently as the OP is, I would look for Contax as my base for it. Or, I would look for a CF 50 instead of H5D-50 with (again) a C645 adapter on it… but again, I would prefer a CF-39ms than all the above on the Contax, or if it was for single shot only, one of the older Dalsa 33mp backs. I guess I never was a pixel count junkie or thought of more resolution as a path to better photography. Just my 2 cents…
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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2014, 06:51:12 pm »

Of course things may change if Leica comes out with the (rumoured to be next) fully dedicated adapter for Rollei (6xxx & hy6) lenses.

That would be an interesting move from Leica.  I could hardly find any reliable sources though…:
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=144943

I own 7 Hasselblad HC lenses and 12 Rollei AFD/PQS/PQ lenses.

The ability to use all of these lenses on a Leica S would make it an attractive platform for me.

Joris.
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Re: Hasselblad H5D-50 vs PhaseOne P65
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2014, 07:06:57 pm »

That would be an interesting move from Leica.  I could hardly find any reliable sources though…:
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=144943

I own 7 Hasselblad HC lenses and 12 Rollei AFD/PQS/PQ lenses.

The ability to use all of these lenses on a Leica S would make it an attractive platform for me.

Joris.
Joris, there where not "reliable sources" on web, neither when Leica introduced the (fully dedicated) Hasselblad H adapter, nor when they introduced the C645 adapter… Still, it was known among those who bothered to ask Leica people. To give you an extra hint, Leica just bought Sinar… and Sinar's latest MF camera was the HY6… They do have some more clients now to serve and keep into the "family", as well as attract some more into that same "family". As of the OPF post, I didn't have to "open" it, for a reason I was already familiar to it!
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