Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Alessandro_V on December 10, 2013, 09:33:08 am
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Hello,
my name is Alessandro and this is my first post on this forum. Hello to everybody!
I have been suggested to write here on another forum as, probably, there would have been many more users able to help me; so let me say thank you very much in advance.
So far I have been shooting with a full frame 35mm digital camera but now I have decided it is time to upgrade my equipment and, after researching on internet and talking with some dealers I have shortened my list of possibility down to two options.
The first one is a PhaseOne P65 digital back to be used in conjuction with a camera, that could be a PhaseOne 645DF+ or another...
The second option is a Hasselblad H5D-50 (or 40, depending on the deal I will finally find...).
I guess both are very good cameras but, as it is going to be a very big investment for me, I wanted to gather all the possible information before making a purchase.
Surely I'll ask for a "test drive" of both cameras but I guess that hearing opinions of people that have been using these cameras for more than one day could be equally important.
My open points, so far, are:
- I know the P65 is basically an iq160, or iq260, with much less features but the sensor is exactly the same. Considering that I usually shoot in studio (I shoot fashion) with my camera connected to CaptureOne that's not a big problem for me. Still I don't know if, buying this digital back, I would be investing my money in a tecnology that, nowadays, has been surpassed. On the other hand I couldn't find any information on the Hasselblad backs, are they completely new if compared to the previous models?
- I guess that the bigger size of the P65 would lead to an image more similar to a true Full Frame medium format if compared to the smaller size of the Hasselblad H5D-50 (not to say the 40) sensor. Do you think that those few mm would make a difference in terms of DoF and all those, sensor-connected, issues?
- What I really appreciate of the P65 is the claimed (is it really true?) 12 stop latitude range, on the other hand I couldn't find any other information on the Hasselblad backs.
- I have seen that Hasseblad claims to have a kind of proprietary Color Management system? Is it a just a series of ICC Profile or it is something different and proprietary of Hasselblad?
- Usually I have seen many more Hasselblad cameras used rather than a purely PhasoOne system, is that just because of the marketing that surrounds these cameras or there are some other serious elements to take into account?
- Do you know any place where I could find some raw files shot with the two cameras? I'd like to see some real images rather than the 8bit tiff that you can download on the Hasselblad website..
This camera is something I am going to work with for many years and so I wish to spend maybe a bit more today but to have something that lasts in time rather than to make some economy and find myself with the need of a new camera in a few years from now.
Thank you very much for your precious help,
my best,
Alessandro
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I've got dozens of sample raws from the 65+ shot in different genres with different lenses. Shoot me an email with what sort of subjects/lenses you'd like and I'll send you links to a few. Full disclosure: I work for the world's largest Phase One dealer (Digital Transitions / NYC) so I'm neither unbiased nor entirely selfless in my offer.
You seem very focused on the sensor and camera. These are absolutely vital to the overall system, but only part of the system.
You should also be exploring the capabilities, speed, support, and performance of the lens and software.
The Schneider LS lenses on the DF+ can sync up to 1/1600th of a second. There are also Phase One D lenses, and Mamiya D, Mamiya AF, and Mamiya TL lenses that can be used on the DF+, and adapters to use Pentacon, Hassy 500, Hassy 200, and a few other random lenses since it has it's own built in focal plane shutter. Some of these lenses are also very very affordable (e.g. a few hundred dollars), and many of them are very good quality - allowing you to fill out a lens line for less (assuming you want more than just the kit lens to start).
In both cases the absolute best image quality and tethering capability/control will be achieved when using the manufacturer's software. Capture One, Phase One's software, is industry leading and considered by many to be superior to, or in the very least a direct rival to LightRoom and Aperture. Many users of Capture One use it for Canon or Nikon, even though they have many other options for those cameras. If you call up a rental studio or digital tech anywhere in the world you're very likely to find they have, use, and know, Capture One.
Finally, when, in a few years you may wish to upgrade your MFD system you should be aware that the DF+ and 65+ are both open-platform components. You can upgrade either the back, or the body, purchase backups or multiples of either, and use them all interchangeably. You can buy a DF+ body off-the-shelf without requiring a trade-in of an older body. You can rent/borrow a body without it needing to be "paired" to your back.
Regarding stops of dynamic range and color management systems: please go shoot actual pictures with each or in the very least look at relevant sample raw files rather than rely on marketing or numerical analysis.
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- I guess that the bigger size of the P65 would lead to an image more similar to a true Full Frame medium format if compared to the smaller size of the Hasselblad H5D-50 (not to say the 40) sensor. Do you think that those few mm would make a difference in terms of DoF and all those, sensor-connected, issues?
A larger sensor does lead to shallower DOF when composing the same frame at the same aperture. This will only matter if you shoot wide-open, since you can simply open up a tad more on the smaller sensor to achieve the same DOF.
Whether the difference is "really important" or "barely worth mentioning" will depend more on you, and your aesthetics, than on the numbers. Real world shooting here is a must. But I also have a variety of raw files shot with a 65+ wide open with a few lenses for you to see what the maximum shallowness achievable is.
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Hello and thank you very much for your swift reply!
Regarding the software I agree with you, Doug, I have a Canon at the moment and I always use CaptureOne when possible, for a number of reasons...
Having said that my idea is to keep using that software when I am shooting...
(I'll send you shortly a PM with my email, thank you very much!!!)
About the sensor dimensions I have not been to precise, sorry...
Apart from dof (and I agree with you, you can tweak the aperture of the lens), from what I know a bigger sensor leads to more a "gradient" color transition, less rumor (larger area but less pixels), etc. My newly-reformulated question is: are all these elements heavily influenced by those few millimeters of difference between these sensor or not? I remember that, at my very beginning, when moving from a Canon 400D (so much time!) to a Caon 5DmkII I noticed a huge improvement (obviously also due to other elements of the camera and tecnology of the time...).
Thank you very much,
Alessandro
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The P65+ offers the best value by far. The image quality is better overall from what I have seen than the 50mp H4/H5's. It also offers a few more pixels and also image area which will give a wider angle of view with any lens. This is valuable if you use wide angles where every mm counts.
Also, Capture One is awesome for tethered work. It is reliable and works amazingly well with CaputurePilot on the iPad/Tablet. You make changes on the computer and those changes can be seen almost immediately on the iPad. That includes image rating (can be done on the iPad as well and it sends the info to the computer) as well image adjustments so everyone working is on the same page. Great workflow.
I have used the Hasselblad software briefly and looked competent but I do not have a lot info/experience on it.
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I agree with Doug. Given they need and the choice I would go for the Phase One system. Hasselblad do not permit a back or camera body upgrade on its own if you go for one of their integrated solutions (H3D/H4D/H5D) - you have to pay a very large sum to upgrade the camera in toto. You can however buy their H4X camera and use that with a Phase One back. There are a lot of used H3D and H4D series Hasselblad cameras on the market at some very low prices so this may be another option to consider. The Pro Centre in London have a lot of well priced stock.
The Hasselblad lenses IMO are better overall than the lenses offered by Phase One because they all have leaf shutters. Having said that the Schneider lenses are really nice.
Most people seem to agree that the Phase backs are better than the Hasselblad ones but again most people think that the Hasselblad camera body is a neater and better solution than the Phase equivalent.
Having owned an H3D31, 39 and 50 and an H4D60 I know that they are fine but very expensive camera systems. I now use a Nikon D800E and I am more than happy with that as a replacement for the Hasselblads. Finally Nikon and Canon are close to bringing out new pro bodies which may have 50MP + sensors if some rumours are to be believed.
My advice? I would wait for the new Canon/Nikon offerings but if you really want to try medium format buy a cheap H3D series from the Pro Centre £2995 for a used and guaranteed H3D-39! Around £4000 with an 80mm lens. Pro Centre are a Hasselblad subsidiary and offer a six month warranty on all their cameras and lenses.
http://www.procentre.co.uk/sales-secondhand-medium-format-digital.php
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Apart from dof (and I agree with you, you can tweak the aperture of the lens), from what I know a bigger sensor leads to more a "gradient" color transition, less rumor (larger area but less pixels), etc. My newly-reformulated question is: are all these elements heavily influenced by those few millimeters of difference between these sensor or not? I remember that, at my very beginning, when moving from a Canon 400D (so much time!) to a Caon 5DmkII I noticed a huge improvement (obviously also due to other elements of the camera and tecnology of the time...).
I think you'll be so happy with tonality and smoothness and "look" with any of the backs that you're looking at that the difference between a 1.1 crop and 1.0 crop as regards that tonality is
That said, tonal smoothness is perceived by many to be better with a Dalsa sensor (P40+, IQ140, P65+, IQ160, H4D-60, H5D-60) than with a Kodak sensor (P30+, P45+, H_D-40, H_D-50). Again - only your own shooting can tell you if you agree with that.
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Alessandro,
If you go to MF, go for more than just megapixels. You have to like the way of working that a MF camera involves. It is slower and more limited in what you can do, but the cameras physically give a different view of the world, and working with them changes the way you work. Only you will know if that's for you.
The best thing to do is to try out the systems with reputable dealers, like Doug. Just as there is generally no real difference btw a Canon and a Nikon point and shoot or aps-c camera, beyond its physical handling, the real difference btw Hassy and Phase is also in feel and handling.
Find out what you like, and then get the best used price possible. 39MP back are getting dirt cheap on both sides of the aisle, and are probably what you should look at.
Yes, the Hassy backs have a clunkier interface. I've been shooting with an H4D-60 , and once I got over the whole 'wow this is like running Windows 98 on a 486 machine' feeling (common to Phase as well), I haven't found that the sub-optimal interface bothers me that much.
One thing that I think matters: Truefocus on the Hassy system is valuable and helps capture some of that small difference that 'makes' MF - in particular to portraiture work. Less relevant for Landscapes. For landscape work DO NOT buy non-leaf-shutter lenses. You will suffer shutter-induced blur.
Good luck,
- N.
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Hi,
A good point. On the other hand I find it intriguing that the very same shutter used in the Phase One cameras has no vibration on the Alpa FPS or the Hartblei HCam. I am a bit confused and have no good explanation.
I have seen FP-shutter related shake on my Pentax 67, so I know the problem.
Interestingly the problem "went away" when I upgraded my Manfrotto CB55 to a Velbon Sherpa Pro 630. The Velbon was one third the weight, but I guess it was much better made ;-)
Best regards
Erik
Agreed.
And if you do buy leaf shutter lenses then make sure they can be used in isolation from any focal plane shutter.
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Just thinking about the hit you must have taken on those systems brings tears to my eyes.
Well some were bought used but the 31 and 39 were bought new and it was a real wrench taken my kids out of school to pay for them. ;D
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Well some were bought used but the 31 and 39 were bought new and it was a real wrench taken my kids out of school to pay for them. ;D
This is the best line I've ever read here.
BC
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Hi Alessandro -
The general sentiment of the thread has been that the P65+, perhaps paired with an H4X may be your best path forward, given that:
*You already use Capture One for your Canon and are fond of it
*Your plan is to shoot mostly tethered (which means the crappy LCD of the P65+ won't matter much)
I would concur this to be a strong consideration for you.
However - as others have emphasized, trying the products out makes a difference - especially for first time buyers. The performance and features of a camera are objective elements but not in how one uses them, values them, likes them, and subjectively responds to them (in tangible and intangible ways). What is a better camera? A Linhof or an Arca Swiss? A Canon or a Nikon? A Panasonic or a Samsung? ::)
If one is better than the other, then why doesn't the other just fade away?
And if the numbers show a majority of users prefer a product, is that product then for you? Do you prefer what the majority prefer or what you prefer?
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I should also disclose that I am not biased toward or away from any particular medium format system - we sell them all and share the pros and cons of each frankly.
With that said, for the sake of others who are curious about the products being discussed, there were some unanswered questions about the Hasselblad system:
- The dynamic range of the current crop of sensors may vary, but if so, not by much. I dug out all the older digital back datasheets in my archive and found that nearly every digital back introduced since 2000 that listed a DR Spec showed at least 12 f/stops (except some older Sinarbacks and the Leaf Valeo 6). Darned if I can find a Hasselblad datasheet showing DR (guess they haven't picked up on that trick!). I would expect them to be similar to the 12 stop range.
- The Hasselblad Natural Color is a term Hasselblad uses to describe their single input digital back profile, which is their unique approach, contrary to the several Phase One optional profiles and the many Leaf profiles. Regardless of the mumbo jumbo, the color out of the Hasselblad products is very good, especially for skin tones.
http://press.hasselblad.com/media/1096/2010-09-22_background_hncs_en.pdf
- Where you most often see Hasselblad cameras in use is in locations where more fashion photography is occurring (often with Phase One or Leaf backs!). This is because the Hasselblad H system and lenses are popular for their ergonomics, auto focus, sharpness, and leaf shutter capability for every lens from 24mm to 300. They also are widely available at rental centers in most major cities.
- While Phase One almost always has aggressive upgrade programs, I think the idea that having to upgrade the camera and the digital back with Hasselblad is more expensive doesn't always hold water. Example - today:
$32,667 - IQ260/DF+ Camera - Upgrade from P30+/AFD-II
$23,400 - H5D-60 - Upgrade from H3D-31
- While there is some "pairing" that goes on with Hasselblad HXD cameras, I think the idea that you're kind of stuck for backup is a bit overblown. Tonight I shot an H5D Digital Back on H4 and H3 bodies, I shot an H4D-50 Digital Back on H3 and H5 bodies, and I shot an H3D-II 31 Digital Back on H5 and H4 bodies. What is lost is the extra step of calibrating the sensor to the camera body for critical focus precision when mixing and matching. But I don't know that it is anymore of an issue than when you pair an off the shelf Phase One or Leaf digital back with a Mamiya/Phase One DF/DF+ camera (or a Contax 645, for that matter).
Speaking of Leaf - what marvelous skin tones. For someone shooting fashion, there's no reason to not consider Leaf as well. In fact, we've had some pretty attractive Leaf Credo 60's come through not too far from the P65+ price neighborhood in recent weeks - and this maintains the Capture One workflow for you, should you find Phocus too jarring a change.
The nice part? You have a lot of attractive choices.
The interesting part - to me - is that you see it as an either or. That could be relevant. Most of my medium format clients also possess alternative cameras they rely on. I see this single camera approach more often with 35mm DSLR users. Sometimes - but not always - that is an indication of where your heart is really at.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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Hello everybody and thank you very much for you super useful support! I really appreciate!
To be honest, on one hand I am now even more confused because I see how there are other solutions, even cheaper, that I haven't considered before.
On the other and I am very happy to see how there are some combinations of cameras and backs that I previously did not know and sounds very interesting to me. Thanks!
As an Italian philosopher once said..."the task of today cultured men is to seed doubts rather then gathering certainty"...and this is what is happening here (I hope I translated everything correctly) ;D Thanks!
Going back to cameras and sensors...
I already have a Mamiya RZ67 with a couple of lenses and, in the past, I really really appreciated the medium format workflow (even if I was shooting film rather than digital) and so I am sure I will love a medium format digital camera and it's way of working...
As I said, most of the time, I work in studio and, differently to many fashion photographer I usually go for continuos light and pretty long exposure (I don't mind going up to a second...). For that reason I guess that a leaf shutter would be foundamental for me: I remember a lot of picture taken without the mirror lock-up feature in the RZ67 to be blurred.
The PhaseOne camera should have both shutters (I mean, obviously the leaf one is in the lens) and give priority to the leaf shutter right?
What about the Hasselblad?
I have to say that I am very tempted by mounting the P65 back on an Hasselblad camera (I did not know of the H4X, thanks for that! It doen't exist a H5X right?)...
One thing that I did not get is: if I buy a P65 back can I mount it on an Hassy and then on a PhaseOne without any problem or is it impossible and once I have chosen a platform I have to remain with that?
Also, from what I understood so far if I go for an Hasselblad system (regarless of the back if considering the H4X) I would then have to stick "just" with Hasselblad lenses, right? While if I go for a PhaseOne camera I could mount a bigger variety of lenses...
One thing that I did not know and on what I am thinking a lot is the fact that there are some H3D so cheap (I mean, compared to the other cameras) on the used market.
Do you think the difference in price is justified by the others cameras features? As I said in my first post I am more positive about spending more today but to have a camera that last in time rather than buying something rather cheap that will not satisfy my need anymore in a couple of years...
Still, the price I have seen are very tempting and I am sure those are great cameras as well...
Thanks a lot also for the other digital back suggestions (Credo, etc...).
As I did not gather those many information so far on these backs I postpone my questions on them... ;)
Finally,
I did not know anything about these 50MP Canon or Nikon cameras...
Apart from the megapixel, that is probably the last reason why I am upgrading to Medium Format, I don't think that, phisically, these bodies can reach the same results that can be achieved with a MF Digital Back...am I right?
Obviously that would be very interesting as I already have plenty of Canon lenses and so on, but....I don't know...Is it something sure?
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Although I am not a pro, I bought one of these cheap second hand H3D, so maybe I can answer a few questions.
First of all: I have a RB67. I would not use it with a digital back because of the large difference in film format. Some people may disagree, so take that as a personal opinion: I feel that the lack of true wide angles and relative difficulty in using the viewfinder for a format much smaller than the one it was designed for makes it an unattractive proposition.
Second: the camera that is best for you depends a lot on what you mainly shoot. The Hasselblad key advantages are, in my opinion, for product photography. Even an old H3D will run circles around newer cameras when used in the following manner:
-with the new HC 50mm-II and macro adapter lens mounted on the HTS (Hasselblad Tilt-Shift adapter)
-tethered to Phocus for precise on screen focussing
-pictures treated in Phocus which will automatically correct for color variation and optical defects, even with tilt or shift. That latest advantage alone is enormous if your job involves 100s of pictures.
In a nutshell, the Hasselblad system:
-is integrated with its software as a complete solution
-has a great line of lenses, all having a central shutter (and many can be had for a good price second hand)
-has a key advantage of more accurate AF for portrait (only H4D and H5D)
-has very well designed cameras (e.g. viewfinder).
If you are interested in a 50 Mpix model, it only existed with the H3DII. The older H3D stopped at 39 mpix. As to the difference between the old H3DII and the more modern H4D/H5D:
-the H3DII is slower in displaying an image
-the H3DII screen has a lower resolution, the H3D screen (first model) is small, dark and quite bad.
-no true focus (the focus correction system really useful for portraits).
The 40 mpix backs which you also considered are smaller sensors and use micro-lenses. That doubles their sensitivity (because the lenses concentrate light), but makes them less suited to be used with tilt or shift (e.g. on view cameras). I think that their main uses are for wedding or portrait.
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Hi Alessandro,
In MF there are three facets of a system to consider
1. The camera ergonomics. The Phase and Hassy systems are VERY different in practical use and have different lens ranges. In particular Hassy has all central shutters, an interesting tilt/shift adapter, a fairly fast focus system and even this true-focus thingy. The Phase system is basically an improved focal plane shutter Mamiya 645AFD, although it now has a few german-origin central shutter lenses. There are a bunch of fairly cheap old lenses on the used market that can be used with the Mamiya although not all are really suitable for digital. I believe Mamiya and Hassy lenses have a very different look, which may matter to you. None of the MF solutions is anywhere close to 35mm in focus and frame speed and flexibility and lens range.
2. The quality of the image files. Everybody agrees both systems are considerably better than 35mm when used at low ISO. However all the chips in the cameras are not equal, there are model to model variations due to the type of sensor chip used, which in my eyes are actually more significant than those between brands.
3. The quality of the software. Phase has its superb C1 solution for general and tethered studio use, Hassy have Phocus. Both of these also work up to a point with 35mm cameras.
Hassy has maybe been underrepresented in the technical discussions on this brand-agnostic forum, there is a manufacturer specific forum somewhere on the net.
Edmund
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Ciao Alessandro,
I can't really speak to any experience with the Phase product.
I have used the H3D 31 for two years, then moved to the H4D 40 for two years and presently have been shooting an H4D 60 for about a year.
The H software Phocus is constantly being upgraded and tweaked, it is a bit wonky in its use but the colour is superb. Also you need to run Phocus on a machine that has no other apps running and that has a lot of Ram and a very good graphics card installed. If you do this the software will work well.
The H4D cameras have True Focus which really helps when shooting people. H4D 40 is a marvel, it is capable of shooting files at ISO 100 200 and 400 very cleanly and continuously without hitting the buffer. The H4D 60 is really an ISO 50 camera that works at one frame per second. If that matters to you you should take that into consideration.
My only advice would be to use both cameras that you are considering during your normal work flow and evaluate, then decide.
If you are interested, have a peak at what I am doing, it's almost all with the H camera. www.giorgioniro.com
Best,
Giorgio
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Hello and thanks a lot for the new answers!
I'll surely test with my hands both cameras before buying them to be sure the ergonomics and way of working suits me.
As the time passes by I am thinking that, in the casa PhaseOne camera doesn't work for me but I still like the P65, the H4X could be a good option.
Still I can't find many information online! I tried on Hasselblad website but nothing...
Also, is it fundamental to work with Phocus in case of a Hasselblad?
I always seen it in studio paired with CaptureOne and it seemed to work perfectly...
What true focus does more specifically?
Is it featured also on the H4X?
Many many thanks,
Alessandro
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Still I can't find many information online! I tried on Hasselblad website but nothing...
You can download the user manual for the camera and phocus and even the phocus software itself. That is the best info you can get.
Also, is it fundamental to work with Phocus in case of a Hasselblad?
No, but phocus really has advantages if you shoot tethered with a H camera and back.
What true focus does more specifically?
Is it featured also on the H4X?
True focus is featured on the H4X. It allows you to focus on the eye of the subject and recompose the picture:
(http://cdn.photigy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/true_focus_illust.png)
http://htv.hasselblad.com/video/using-true-focus-how-and-when-to-use-true-focus (http://htv.hasselblad.com/video/using-true-focus-how-and-when-to-use-true-focus)
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Alessandro
The best advice I can give you (long term Hasselblad user) is to put yourself in the hands of Steve Hendrix and the team at Capture integration.
These guys really know the product they sell and stand behind it.
Nick-T
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Thanks a lot for all the useful advices, I'll surely keep everything in consideration!
I will orgazine to rent these cameras to see what better suits me...
If anybody has any other advice I am always here! :-)
Thanks!
Ale
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I think the Phase one camera body is not even close to the Hasselblad H4/H5.
The Hasselblad feels better, has a better ballance and has the True focus system.
On the other hand, Phase one have better backs and better software I think.
Personally I will wait until Phase one presents their new camera and have a
complete intergrated system. If you buy the Df+ now, you investment will
be lost as soon as Phase one comes out with the DF++ and the DF+++.
They are not even giving a possibillity to upgrade.
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I think the Phase one camera body is not even close to the Hasselblad H4/H5.
The Hasselblad feels better, has a better ballance and has the True focus system.
On the other hand, Phase one have better backs and better software I think.
Personally I will wait until Phase one presents their new camera and have a
complete intergrated system. If you buy the Df+ now, you investment will
be lost as soon as Phase one comes out with the DF++ and the DF+++.
They are not even giving a possibillity to upgrade.
I don't know who your dealer is but we (Digital Transitions) provided upgrade options for the AF to DF and the DF to DF+, notably these upgrades did not require you to be upgrading your digital back. I'll be the first to say they weren't as aggressive as we would have liked to have made them (the most we can afford to do in such cases is break even), but they were quite favorable when compared to e.g. the H2>H4X upgrade or an H4D-40 to H5D-40.
Regarding ergonomics and balance - it's a funny, very personal, thing. I've heard "love" and "hate" uttered by several customers for every major platform. Even the Hy6 which I thought had really nice (and creative) ergonomics and handling I've heard called "an abomination" in regards to ergonomics by a customer who is usually quite laid back.
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Hi,
It may even vary, from time to time.
Best regards
Erik
… I've heard "love" and "hate" uttered by several customers for every major platform. Even the Hy6 which I thought had really nice (and creative) ergonomics and handling I've heard called "an abomination" in regards to ergonomics by a customer who is usually quite laid back. …
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Hi Alessandro,
I thought I'd pipe up, there's already a bit of information here, but thought I'd throw in my experience with both system.
Firstly, I own an IQ160 and 645DF. I shoot fairly frequently with it, along with a 5D3 and recently an A7r, but have also used the H3D something or other, H4D50 and H5D50 as a friend uses their system.
As far as digital backs go, I would definitely rank the Phase One there, if you're looking at the IQ that is. I'm talking of overall use. It's a pleasure to use in the field when you can't shoot tethered. Tethered shooting is pretty acceptable too, but has the same limitations. I've found my back to freeze frequently and "apparently" is a fairly normal issue to run into on occasion.
The other thing I found shooting tethered was to run into issues with the buffer, but that's more because it shoots faster than the Hass. Generally not an issue though.
I think the new SK lenses are a little hit and miss to be honest.
The 80mm is solid, and works very well with a reasonable result. I don't like the 150mm at all. It's images are a little soft, and frankly the look it gives is not great.
The 110mm lens though, is my favourite lens, bar none, on any system I've used. I can't put my finger on it particularly... just overall it's the most pleasing photographic lens I've used, even a terrible photo looks great with it (this is purely objective though).
Because the relatively small level of focal length difference between the 80 and 110mm, I'll often use the 110mm in place, and step back a little.
But that said, I've had similar issues with Hasselblad lenses too on the H system. Some are hit and miss, though I haven't had enough time with the lengths to determine which one I like or dislike.
As far as bodies go, I prefer the Hasselblad body itself, its only downfall is it doesn't have a focal plane shutter, and thereby limited to the leaf shutter speed (I think it's 1/650th or somewhere around there). This is good for many situations, but can lead to compromise in other situations, which I don't like.
God knows when Phase One is going to release a new body that isn't related to the Mamiya goliath.
As you've already acknowledged, it's better to trial both, and see how it goes.
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God knows when Phase One is going to release a new body that isn't related to the Mamiya goliath.
As you've already acknowledged, it's better to trial both, and see how it goes.
+1
Alessandro,
Yes, Phase are leaking they will have a new body.
Yes, Hassy are leaking they have a new sensor coming -presumably also in an improved body.
Unless you have a time travel device, I think it best to assume that the camera you get is the camera you will shoot for the foreseeable future. Which has an advantage - anything that is now on the market can be rented and tested in production - go for it!
Edmund
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Edmund, you missed the best part - both leaks/rumors will also have a price increase with it.
I don't know what wait times are like now, but to get from an announcement to available for demo/rental/purchase can be huge. Plus there is the possibility that there are issues that will come up, as there are with any new system.
I love my H4D-50, I love working with a Phase setup when it's available. I also appreciate there are places on the internet where I can ask questions of folks who use the gear in their workflow, and there is a used market for backs, lenses, etc. Anything radically different from what is available today would limit that feedback.
-Joe
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Joe,
Actually, smart malicious Nikon fans should start a strong rumor of an imminent SUPERB, FLAWLESS and THOROUGHLY TESTED Canon camera - because such a rumor would kill ... the current sales of an existing Canon model. An interesting line of thought, no? People who master this type of reasoning in ... politics are called spin doctors :)
Edmund
Edmund, you missed the best part - both leaks/rumors will also have a price increase with it.
I don't know what wait times are like now, but to get from an announcement to available for demo/rental/purchase can be huge. Plus there is the possibility that there are issues that will come up, as there are with any new system.
I love my H4D-50, I love working with a Phase setup when it's available. I also appreciate there are places on the internet where I can ask questions of folks who use the gear in their workflow, and there is a used market for backs, lenses, etc. Anything radically different from what is available today would limit that feedback.
-Joe
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Just to add... Living in Australia, and having purchased my IQ with a 645DF, for which I'm still using, and within three months of that purchase and delivery, the 645DF+ came out, and attending one of the Phase one workshops, being told "we get a deal to upgrade automatically"... I was surprised when all I was offered was the upgrade at full price of the new body.
I've since had the chance to use the +, and it is better, but it's still terrible, considering the price they demand. If the Australian distributors came to the table with a more reasonable upgrade price (hell, if they'd come to the table WITH an upgrade price, not a buy it outright at the same price as everybody else), I'd have no trouble recommending them.
I'm not trying to bad mouth Phase One, but they never responded to my requests for information, nor did they really help me in regards to the camera.
I also know, other countries have a MUCH better sales support team, but I felt and still do feel let down.
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Just to add... Living in Australia, and having purchased my IQ with a 645DF, for which I'm still using, and within three months of that purchase and delivery, the 645DF+ came out, and attending one of the Phase one workshops, being told "we get a deal to upgrade automatically"... I was surprised when all I was offered was the upgrade at full price of the new body.
I've since had the chance to use the +, and it is better, but it's still terrible, considering the price they demand. If the Australian distributors came to the table with a more reasonable upgrade price (hell, if they'd come to the table WITH an upgrade price, not a buy it outright at the same price as everybody else), I'd have no trouble recommending them.
I'm not trying to bad mouth Phase One, but they never responded to my requests for information, nor did they really help me in regards to the camera.
I also know, other countries have a MUCH better sales support team, but I felt and still do feel let down.
+1
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I have a Hassy H5D system. I think the word "system" is key here because I gained the impression that Hasselblad offered a better thought out system, from back/camera integration, innovations like true focus, lenses integrated with software design, and dedicated accessories like the HTS-1.5 tilt-shift adapter. Phase produce great backs, of course, but the body is not in my view as good. On the other hand, if you are going to use the back on a technical camera, all that tight integration becomes less important.
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Phase definitely makes great backs and I like their C1 software the best. Everyone compares the backs and cameras but the software is important too. It's true that Phase probably has a new camera in the pipeline - will it be announced finally at PMA or Photokina this fall or some other time? Will it be totally groundbreaking with commensurate cost, or another disappointing warm over of the 645 platform? When will it be available after announcement, and will they get it right in the first version? I think they went through 3 or 4 iterations on the 645AF body and still many consider it to be not perfect. I also hope that Hasselblad has a new sensor in the works since all I've seen for a while now from them is the redecorating of small Japanese made cameras. I think their TrueFocus is a brilliant solution actually and hope the best for them since they had a good body and platform as Quentin has pointed out, but I have to be honest that their path forward seems confusing to me with the discontinuation of the V and cessation of service on older items with no announcements at all for new MF items for a while.
You ask about just Phase and Hasselblad, but there actually is a third alternative - the Rolleiflex Hy6 Mod2 which you could mount Leaf Credo 60 and still use capture one software. The Rollei has been my choice for many years going back to a 6008AF with phase p20, and mostly for the excellent lenses and viewfinder, but also for the ergonomics which I think are the best - but I'm biased :-)
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Hi,
Hasselblad has a quite interesting product palette, and I feel they often think out of the box, like the Flexbody, Arcbody and now the HTS. There is some info about Hasselblad cooperating with Sony on a new CMOS sensor. The hints may be, non Bayer and electronic shutter, but that may be wishful thinking. It also seems that Hasselblad may have a lower price policy compared to Phase.
Putting the V to rest is probably a rational decision. That system will stay around for a long time anyway. There are a lot of cameras around they are well built and can still be serviced.
Best regards
Erik
Phase definitely makes great backs and I like their C1 software the best. Everyone compares the backs and cameras but the software is important too. It's true that Phase probably has a new camera in the pipeline - will it be announced finally at PMA or Photokina this fall or some other time? Will it be totally groundbreaking with commensurate cost, or another disappointing warm over of the 645 platform? When will it be available after announcement, and will they get it right in the first version? I think they went through 3 or 4 iterations on the 645AF body and still many consider it to be not perfect. I also hope that Hasselblad has a new sensor in the works since all I've seen for a while now from them is the redecorating of small Japanese made cameras. I think their TrueFocus is a brilliant solution actually and hope the best for them since they had a good body and platform as Quentin has pointed out, but I have to be honest that their path forward seems confusing to me with the discontinuation of the V and cessation of service on older items with no announcements at all for new MF items for a while.
You ask about just Phase and Hasselblad, but there actually is a third alternative - the Rolleiflex Hy6 Mod2 which you could mount Leaf Credo 60 and still use capture one software. The Rollei has been my choice for many years going back to a 6008AF with phase p20, and mostly for the excellent lenses and viewfinder, but also for the ergonomics which I think are the best - but I'm biased :-)
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Eric,
I'll believe the existence of a decent Phase body the day I see it. I bought my Phamiya P45+ system in the hopes I would one day see a better body, I sold it with the decision that from now on I am only buying used systems that are known to work. And frankly, we all know about V1.0 of a new thing being trash, but compare today's much improved Phase system and lenses to the 10 years old Rollei or the Contax, and you see the difference between true quality and often-improved mediocrity. In fact the continued bulletproof quality of ancient Phase backs just proves this very point.
As far as I'm concerned Phase have played the "look at our wonderful files, it's an open system, buy in now, there is a better body upgrade just round the corner" game too often. And yes, there actually was one, the Leaf/Rollei, which they zombified/buried. Some sock puppet commented that this was a sound business decision and thus in the interest of their customers who will see a better Phase body. How altruistic!
I wonder whether any of the original Phase back engineers are still around? They might be given the task of finding or making a body that merits the same respect as those backs.
Edmund
Phase definitely makes great backs and I like their C1 software the best. Everyone compares the backs and cameras but the software is important too. It's true that Phase probably has a new camera in the pipeline - will it be announced finally at PMA or Photokina this fall or some other time? Will it be totally groundbreaking with commensurate cost, or another disappointing warm over of the 645 platform? When will it be available after announcement, and will they get it right in the first version? I think they went through 3 or 4 iterations on the 645AF body and still many consider it to be not perfect. I also hope that Hasselblad has a new sensor in the works since all I've seen for a while now from them is the redecorating of small Japanese made cameras. I think their TrueFocus is a brilliant solution actually and hope the best for them since they had a good body and platform as Quentin has pointed out, but I have to be honest that their path forward seems confusing to me with the discontinuation of the V and cessation of service on older items with no announcements at all for new MF items for a while.
You ask about just Phase and Hasselblad, but there actually is a third alternative - the Rolleiflex Hy6 Mod2 which you could mount Leaf Credo 60 and still use capture one software. The Rollei has been my choice for many years going back to a 6008AF with phase p20, and mostly for the excellent lenses and viewfinder, but also for the ergonomics which I think are the best - but I'm biased :-)
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I have tried the Mamiya 645 AFD iii, the Df and now own the DF+ and I can honestly say, the Df+ might seem like a minor upgrade on paper, but it feels like a whole different beast in hand. Build quality is vastly improved, the tactile feel of the buttons are much better and the AF, while nothing like a 35mm DSLR, is quite fast and locks well. The vertical grip is terrible and overpriced though.
I can easily live with this body for a few years, if that's how long it will take phamiya to launch a new one.
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I would still go for Contax 645…
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I would still go for Contax 645…
Long ago when I moved to MF after shooing Leica R with their digital module, I also looked at the Contax 645 mostly because of the lenses, but the viewfinder wasn't so great and the images I got weren't jumping out at me. I don't use AF much but it was really slow on the contax. It just seemed to not fit me. Then I looked at the RZ, and I still have one, but its like a dinosaur and not very smart plus a bit big. Then I found the Rollei 6008AF. Truth is it was weird at first, because the controls were all placed differently, but viewfinder was the best I had seen and the lenses - Wow! - they were better than the Leica R to me and and I kept using the camera. After a few weeks the controls started to click with me, and I realized how great the ergonomics of the camera were. The camera became transparent to me - now I just think of the image I want, and the camera works like an extension of me and is not in the way. This is how it should be, whatever you buy, the camera should not get in the way of what you want to do or take your concentration away - it should work like reflex. The Leica R was like that, but I never got there with any of my Canon's - or the RZ or the DF - somehow I had to always take my eyes away from the camera and study it to adjust some setting. It's amazing with the Hy6+AFi-ii 12 I don't even have to take my eyes away or change hand position to move the sensor from portrait to landscape or vice versa. Just really fantastic ergonomics - nothing slows you down.
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I would still go for Contax 645…
The Contax 645 is a bit overpriced on the used market IMHO.
Also, you would need to buy everything twice since from 2015 onwards the availability of spare parts will become more and more problematic.
And I have the impression that lenses like the 80mm are much harder to find since the availability of the adapter for the Leica S.
Cameras like the Contax 645 or the Hasselblad V are great cameras but investing today I would not choose them as the base for a digital platform.
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Yet, with Hass H and Mamyia 645 being the only alternatives around… it's no surprise why Contax S/H prices are high… It seems that demand keeps them high… OTOH, Rollei 6xxx could be an alternative, but "good luck" in finding an MFDB for it and if you do, "good luck" in being able to de-touch it and fit it on a view camera or a Fuji GX680. Another thing to consider is the Leica S and their recent C645 fully dedicated lens adapter… It makes investing on Contax gear safer than ever, even if your camera ever fails, you can sell your back (in NO TIME since backs supply for Contax is less than the demand) at a better price than another fit and use a Leica instead of investing on another body and upgrade the back. Of course things may change if Leica comes out with the (rumoured to be next) fully dedicated adapter for Rollei (6xxx & hy6) lenses. This surely will convince many to keep their (superb) Rollei lenses and look after their system until the camera dies and then replace it with a Leica.
If I was after a P65+ back (I'm not I'm satisfied with what I now have) currently as the OP is, I would look for Contax as my base for it. Or, I would look for a CF 50 instead of H5D-50 with (again) a C645 adapter on it… but again, I would prefer a CF-39ms than all the above on the Contax, or if it was for single shot only, one of the older Dalsa 33mp backs. I guess I never was a pixel count junkie or thought of more resolution as a path to better photography. Just my 2 cents…
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Of course things may change if Leica comes out with the (rumoured to be next) fully dedicated adapter for Rollei (6xxx & hy6) lenses.
That would be an interesting move from Leica. I could hardly find any reliable sources though…:
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=144943
I own 7 Hasselblad HC lenses and 12 Rollei AFD/PQS/PQ lenses.
The ability to use all of these lenses on a Leica S would make it an attractive platform for me.
Joris.
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That would be an interesting move from Leica. I could hardly find any reliable sources though…:
http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=144943
I own 7 Hasselblad HC lenses and 12 Rollei AFD/PQS/PQ lenses.
The ability to use all of these lenses on a Leica S would make it an attractive platform for me.
Joris.
Joris, there where not "reliable sources" on web, neither when Leica introduced the (fully dedicated) Hasselblad H adapter, nor when they introduced the C645 adapter… Still, it was known among those who bothered to ask Leica people. To give you an extra hint, Leica just bought Sinar… and Sinar's latest MF camera was the HY6… They do have some more clients now to serve and keep into the "family", as well as attract some more into that same "family". As of the OPF post, I didn't have to "open" it, for a reason I was already familiar to it!
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Cameras like the Contax 645 or the Hasselblad V are great cameras but investing today I would not choose them as the base for a digital platform.
Absolutely agree. If one is building a system now, it really wouldn't make much sense to go with the contax in terms of price/ performance and long term viability.
I am actually contemplating a second MF system eventually. To get an older, V-mount, lower MP digital back for my Bronica (Along with the Silvestri adapter plate). Bronica gear is dirt cheap now and is freely available. Would make a nice counterpoint to my Credo. :)
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Joris, there where not "reliable sources" on web, neither when Leica introduced the (fully dedicated) Hasselblad H adapter, nor when they introduced the C645 adapter… Still, it was known among those who bothered to ask Leica people. To give you an extra hint, Leica just bought Sinar… and Sinar's latest MF camera was the HY6… They do have some more clients now to serve and keep into the "family", as well as attract some more into that same "family". As of the OPF post, I didn't have to "open" it, for a reason I was already familiar to it!
True and I did indeed overlook that Leica just acquired Sinar...
That being said, I am not sure how many people would still be on a fully digital Sinar Hy6 platform, probably not that many I am just guessing.
In any case, if I were to re-invest in MFD it would probably be Leica, best vision and strategy at this point in time is my feeling.
Also, you can buy the Leica for about half of the price of a Phase One digital back...
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Also, you can buy the Leica for about half of the price of a Phase One digital back...
Depends which system you're comparing to I guess. The p40+ is the closest generationally and spec wise and thousands of dollars less expensive (with a body) than even the older S2.
Yes, a phase IQ280 with an 80mp full frame sensor, built in wifi, retina screen, touch interface, sensor+, and compatibility with tech cameras and several MF systems is more expensive than the subframe 37mp Leica S but I'd argue those two models are not well suited for price comparison.
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It is common to think of older cameras as "more MFDB" or "less MFDB" compatible, depending on whether they:
A. Have CPU contacts to communicate with their film back, hence the MFDB uses the same contacts (which makes MFDB with the camera communication easier and "internal").
B. Need cocking of the shutter or not…
The Contax (and the Rollei) fulfils the above, IMO, this kind of communication is all an MFDB user will ever need, more than that, (as Hasselblad or Mamyia do - especially Hassy) makes the system more prone to bags and other software problems that are extra sources that can affect reliability. I'm personally a man that doesn't like to change equipment or to upgrade often as others do… whenever I have to make a major decision, it's a careful and well thought one… I'm stuck with Nikon FF for 33 years now and many of my lenses are AI-S bought from new, I was with Bronica for MF for 20 years and had a great 10 lens system, the reason I changed to Contax, was purely because of the "digital revolution" and its compatibility with it, my MFDB is a 16x multishot capable one, with "only" 22mp resolution for single shot, yet, I find that (combined with my Contax lenses) it beats my D800E for anything as far as "single-shot" is concerned, I find no significant or valuable reason that a higher resolution/modern MFDB does anything better in single-shot (well it does, but not significant (or to the extend) to affect the quality or print size of my photography) and it provides me with what is better image quality by a million years than any of todays 80mp MFDB when it shoots in 16x (most of its use - proffession).
Never the less, if I was a starter, wanted to fully explore MF and its values, share the knowledge I now have in photography and respected my income more than my ability to spend (as I currently do), I would buy a couple of Bronica ETRSi bodies, a 40, 60, 100m and 150 (PS version) lenses, with a handgrip and three VFs (WLF, rotary and pentaprism), a double stroke grip and 3 screens for "peanuts" (1000 or so) and an Imacon 132c (with Bronica plate fitted - yes they did make it) to go along with it… and I would work professionally, being as capable as with any other camera!
P.S. Has anyone (one that prints huge and REALLY masters the technique and profiles of printing) ever tried to do a 36ppi print out of well shot and processed 22mp fat-pixel "magic" Kodak sensor 10years old MFDB??? …Wait until you try a 33 mp Dalsa one!
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Hi,
In favour of the Leica I would say that they developed a lens system for the format they have chosen, and also that they developed an AF capable adapter for using Hasselblad lenses.
Than I guess anyone needs to ask what they need MF for. If they need it for resolution the higher MP backs make a lot of sense.
A back is more flexible as you can put it on different devices.
Best regards
Erik
Depends which system you're comparing to I guess. The p40+ is the closest generationally and spec wise and is far less expensive (with a body) than even the older S2.
Yes, a phase IQ280 with an 80mp full frame sensor, built in wifi, retina screen, touch interface, sensor+, and compatibility with tech cameras and several MF systems is more expensive than the Leica S but I'd argue that's not two models well suited for comparison.
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Depends which system you're comparing to I guess. The p40+ is the closest generationally and spec wise and is far less expensive (with a body) than even the older S2.
Yes, a phase IQ280 with an 80mp full frame sensor, built in wifi, retina screen, touch interface, sensor+, and compatibility with tech cameras and several MF systems is more expensive than the Leica S but I'd argue that's not two models well suited for comparison.
Doug,
Indeed. And of course we really wouldn't want to compare the Leica glass to the Mamiya lenses ...after all lenses are very secondary in photography.
BTW - are you a Leica S dealer these days?
Edmund
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Depends which system you're comparing to I guess. The p40+ is the closest generationally and spec wise and thousands of dollars less expensive (with a body) than even the older S2.
Yes, a phase IQ280 with an 80mp full frame sensor, built in wifi, retina screen, touch interface, sensor+, and compatibility with tech cameras and several MF systems is more expensive than the subframe 37mp Leica S but I'd argue those two models are not well suited for price comparison.
Doug,
I should have compared with the Credo 60 and 80MP backs which is the current Leaf solution for the Hy6.
Those sell for $28K and $34K if I am not mistaken.
Using the Rollei glass on the Leica S ($22K plus say $2K for the adapter if it ever comes true) would still be significantly cheaper.
I would use the Leica for digital captures and keep the Hy6 for film captures and hopefully would be perfectly happy.
And on top of that I would not get irritated but the fact that Leaf dropped their unique rotating sensor/articulating screen solution for the Hy6…
For another $2K I would be able to use my Hasselblad HC lenses as well which would mean I could get rid of my H4X/P30+ combo.
Leica is IMO making smart moves and not only focusing on MP...
Thanks, Joris.
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Indeed. And of course we really wouldn't want to compare the Leica glass to the Mamiya lenses ...after all lenses are very secondary in photography.
BTW - are you a Leica S dealer these days?
I'll gladly put the Schneider 55LS, Schneider 110LS, Phase One 150D, and Schneider 240LS against any glass in the world.
Notably I left the 28LS off that list, but it's a somewhat hard comparison since Leica makes no directly equivalent lens (their 24mm is good but only covers their sub-frame sensor - a 21mm would be required for same vertical AOV as the Schneider 28LS on a FF sensor). And of course they would not frustrate you as they do have the rotating sensor and articulating screen.
I do have great respect for Leica's glass. They make great lenses.
Nope - Phase One / Mamiya / Leaf only, glad to own up to my bias with my signature clarifying we don't sell every brand.
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I should have compared with the Credo 60 and 80MP backs which is the current Leaf solution for the Hy6.
Those sell for $28K and $34K if I am not mistaken.
Using the Rollei glass on the Leica S ($22K plus say $2K for the adapter if it ever comes true) would still be significantly cheaper.
I would use the Leica for digital captures and keep the Hy6 for film captures and hopefully would be perfectly happy.
And on top of that I would not get irritated but the fact that Leaf dropped their unique rotating sensor/articulating screen solution for the Hy6…
Fair enough. Though an Leaf AFI-10 and Leaf AFI-12 are still IMO a more apt comparisons and more comparable in price and notably both have sensors that would use a much larger part of the native image circle of your Hy6 and HC glass than an S2 would (though the same as your current P30+).
But yes, I'm very glad to see Leica pushing for the open-platform model of being compatible with as many options as is feasible. They are a bit hamstrung since their sensor and body are integrated and therefore compatibility with other SLR and tech camera bodies is a non-starter. But their push to adapt other lenses into their system is impressive. Any venture into being more open-platform IMO is better than the alternative of mostly or entirely closing your system.
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Doug,
Indeed. And of course we really wouldn't want to compare the Leica glass to the Mamiya lenses ...after all lenses are very secondary in photography.
BTW - are you a Leica S dealer these days?
Edmund
I have seen nothing; artistic or brickwall-ey that suggests that these mythical Leica lenses are head and shoulders above the new P1 glass. Besides, if their lenses are so flawless, why would Leica be making AF adapters for other brand lenses? Perhaps, they know deep inside that for all the hyperbole that they are experts at, their lenses are still ridiculously overpriced, even by MF standards?
All that aside, the S2 is still a "Barely medium format", 3:2 ratio system with no ability to use the back on anything else. Basically, it checks none of the boxes that I looked at while contemplating an MF system. Personally speaking, even if the system was half the price of my Credo kit, I wouldn't have considered it.
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I wonder why the vast majority of pros, don't use 60 or 80mp modern backs, but settle down for older 39-kodak or 33-salsa or even 22mp backs… does anybody knows the reason? Also… Leica suggests (through an interview of the CEO in DPR) that they make more than 25% of the MF market total worth and this is increasing rapidly… Why is this?
An independent MFDB obviously is better to use on a view or technical camera than one converting his P2 or P3 rear board to fit his S2 on it… but, maybe the later is good enough? …Or is it that people prefer to keep their older backs (22 or 33 or 39mp), use them on their view or tech cameras and additionally buy an S2 body and use their lenses on it? After all, what is the cost if one buys an old 22mp back to use on his view camera? 1500-2500 maybe? What he would miss if he was to do that than investing on a new hi-res back and "digital" lenses on his view camera? …would customers be more satisfied than they where 10 years ago?
It seems (to me) that Leica caught the right "pulse" of the market… They just made a camera that is familiar to both FF DSLR users and at the same time keeps the MF qualities that the MFDB user doesn't want to be disengaged with… Additionally, they sell their DSLR at a price of an MFDB but offer the ergonomics of using it as if it was a DSLR and more than that, one keeps his lenses… perfect! Now, if one is also using his MFDB on a camera with movements, an older back (any mount) combined with a (ridiculous cost-superb lens quality) Fuji GX680 should solve all his problems and if he wants the absolute best image quality available than any back by far... he better make that old back a multishot one which will make any Credo or IQ180 high-res. back to look like a VW if compared against a Ferrari.
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For the currently increasing population of super-rich, the S is fairly cheap and also familiar; with its fairly fast sensor "normal" users will get clean images handheld, without strobes or tripod. It's a good product.
I have never met anyone using the S, so I don't think a lot of pros are using the S, the "pro" aura is just used to lure in the amateurs. Think of it as recruiting pro sports players to use a certain type of shoe, golf-cub or racket - the pros are essential for marketing, but a tiny proportion of sales.
Edmund
I wonder why the vast majority of pros, don't use 60 or 80mp modern backs, but settle down for older 39-kodak or 33-salsa or even 22mp backs… does anybody knows the reason? Also… Leica suggests (through an interview of the CEO in DPR) that they make more than 25% of the MF market total worth and this is increasing rapidly… Why is this?
An independent MFDB obviously is better to use on a view or technical camera than one converting his P2 or P3 rear board to fit his S2 on it… but, maybe the later is good enough? …Or is it that people prefer to keep their older backs (22 or 33 or 39mp), use them on their view or tech cameras and additionally buy an S2 body and use their lenses on it? After all, what is the cost if one buys an old 22mp back to use on his view camera? 1500-2500 maybe? What he would miss if he was to do that than investing on a new hi-res back and "digital" lenses on his view camera? …would customers be more satisfied than they where 10 years ago?
It seems (to me) that Leica caught the right "pulse" of the market… They just made a camera that is familiar to both FF DSLR users and at the same time keeps the MF qualities that the MFDB user doesn't want to be disengaged with… Additionally, they sell their DSLR at a price of an MFDB but offer the ergonomics of using it as if it was a DSLR and more than that, one keeps his lenses… perfect! Now, if one is also using his MFDB on a camera with movements, an older back (any mount) combined with a (ridiculous cost-superb lens quality) Fuji GX680 should solve all his problems and if he wants the absolute best image quality available than any back by far... he better make that old back a multishot one which will make any Credo or IQ180 high-res. back to like a VW if compared against a Ferrari.
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Had the Leica S been capable of utilising the leaf shutters independently of the focal plane shutter I might well be using it now.
As much as I admire Phase backs...but I've said it all before.
But they do… as long as you shoot LS, the focal plane "just opens" as if it was never there… Mamyia and P1 are the same also. In fact, if a leaf shutter lens is used in both Mamyia or Leica, the focal plane's action, it is no different than the "curtain" that Hasselblad uses on either their "V" or the "H" camera. Only Bronicas and Rolleis and Fuji GX680 are different (where the mirror also blocks the light to leak towards the imaging area) in their design, but this doesn't affect action, since the leaf shutter can't start exposure unless the mirror has moved fully up.
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For the currently increasing population of super-rich, the S is fairly cheap and also familiar; with its fairly fast sensor "normal" users will get clean images handheld, without strobes or tripod. It's a good product.
I have never met anyone using the S, so I don't think a lot of pros are using the S, the "pro" aura is just used to lure in the amateurs. Think of it as recruiting pro sports players to use a certain type of shoe, golf-cub or racket - the pros are essential for marketing, but a tiny proportion of sales.
Edmund
I can ensure you, there are more pros using Leica S than 60 or 80mp backs… Never the less, as I said before, most pros dot use either, they mostly use much older 39 or 33 or 22 backs and some are wise enough to have invested on multishot versions of the same backs while they could.
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I ensure you, there are more pros using Leica S than 60 or 80mp backs…
My guess is your statement is wrong by around an order of magnitude. I'll admit this is a guess, and not something I can "assure" anyone of. But it is based on 7 years doing medium format sales full time at the first and second largest medium format dealers in the largest medium format pro market in the world.
As reference in 2013 we sold more 60mp backs to pros this year than any other resolution. Refurbished IQ160s and pre-owned P65+ both sold very well to the pro market and a healthy share of IQ260 sales went to pro architectural/interior/resort shooters.
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Doug,
I wish you every luck in selling your product line, new and refurbished, to your circle of customers, pro and prosumer alike; but let us not forget that even in the game of Bridge one does better not only by being a Master player, but also by getting better dealt cards - and the cards you are now dealt, as a Master Salesman, IMHO could be considerably improved.
Please do not take this as an ad-hominem attack, as you are well known as a helpful and knowledgable specialist dealer.
Edmund
My guess is your statement is wrong by around an order of magnitude. I'll admit this is a guess, and not something I can "assure" anyone of. But it is based on 7 years doing medium format sales full time at the first and second largest medium format dealers in the largest medium format market in the world.
As reference in 2013 we sold more 60mp backs to pros this year than any other resolution. Refurbished IQ160s and pre-owned P65+ both sold very well to the pro market and a healthy share of IQ260 sales went to pro architectural/interior/resort shooters.
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1.Shutter released
2.Mirror goes up
3.Aperture diaphragm closes down to desired f-stop
4.Focal plane shutter opens
5.Camera starts exposure electronically
6.Central shutter closes
7.Aperture opens
8.Focal plane shutter closes
9.Central shutter opens
10.Mirror returns
Thanks, but I'll take the risk with the Hasselblad curtain over that Leica shutter.
Are you sure of the series? …there is no reason for the focal plane not to be open just after the leaf shutter is closed and before the exposure would take place… just like Hussy's curtains do.
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My guess is your statement is wrong by around an order of magnitude. I'll admit this is a guess, and not something I can "assure" anyone of. But it is based on 7 years doing medium format sales full time at the first and second largest medium format dealers in the largest medium format pro market in the world.
As reference in 2013 we sold more 60mp backs to pros this year than any other resolution. Refurbished IQ160s and pre-owned P65+ both sold very well to the pro market and a healthy share of IQ260 sales went to pro architectural/interior/resort shooters.
I am sure some pros do buy new ultra high res backs… but are they enough to be considered as significant percentage when compared to those using the older 22, or 33(Dalsa), or the 39mp backs? …and do those who use MS backs replace them for single-shot high res backs?
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My guess is your statement is wrong by around an order of magnitude. I'll admit this is a guess, and not something I can "assure" anyone of. But it is based on 7 years doing medium format sales full time at the first and second largest medium format dealers in the largest medium format pro market in the world.
As reference in 2013 we sold more 60mp backs to pros this year than any other resolution. Refurbished IQ160s and pre-owned P65+ both sold very well to the pro market and a healthy share of IQ260 sales went to pro architectural/interior/resort shooters.
Leica has been quite open with their numbers.
They claim to have sold 1,200 units in 2012 and estimate the total market at about 6,000 units per year.
For a new solution in a very niche market that is pretty good.
I assume Phase sells more than 1,200 units but given that they do not want to share their numbers with us it really is anybody's guess...
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Leica has been quite open with their numbers.
They claim to have sold 1,200 units in 2012 and estimate the total market at about 6,000 units per year.
For a new solution in a very niche market that is pretty good.
I assume Phase sells more than 1,200 units but given that they do not want to share their numbers with us it really is anybody's guess...
I think Phase are seeing significant return on investment with their solutions for industrial users, and institutions with document capture needs who appreciate the reliable robust backs, excellent files and very good software.
Handheld photography is taking the backseat: It seems they have devoted their finite resources for instance to a body that "was designed from the ground up exclusively for aerial photography (https://digitaltransitions.com/pdf/IXABrochure.pdf)."
http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/iXR.aspx
http://www.aerial-survey-base.com/blog/phaseone-ixa-aerial-survey-camera-system-family/
I find it wonderful that Phase have capitalized on their existing technology to serve some lucrative niche markets, and invested appropriately. Also, one does think of all the museums now needing to digitize their collections, a field in which Phase One's proven high resolution backs coupled with an industrial body provide a clear competitive advantage. On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that the same company will be able to introduce *two* innovative bodies in a row.
I guess if and when Hassy or Leica finally get real traction in the rich guy prosumer business, Phase will announce a new toy, promise upgrades when it is available, or just turn into a defense contractor. Or maybe they will retain the commercial photography line as a lucrative mark-down outlet for sensors that do not meet the stringent homogeneity criteria imperative for remote-sensing applications, photogrammetry and scientific museum work.
At this point I'm embarrassed to say that the Leica S, a reasonably modern super-tough optical-viewfinder design for field handheld use by individual photographers with limited technical skills, almost looks like a value proposition, and I am starting to understand its marketing goals.
Of course, if we get to see a new Phase handheld body soon that is not a simple Phamiya refresh, that would be delightful, but I believe in what I see, and for now that is a robust innovative and integrated aerial photography solution :)
Edmund
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Hi,
I am not seeing a lot of medium format cameras around. I have seen a single MF camera in Yellowstone in all my years of travel and that was a Noblex film camera. I actually had a Pentax 67 with me.
If you read about photographers here in Sweden, they invariably have a Hasselblad. I have never ever read about a Swedish photographer shooting Phase One. Sweden is of course the home of Hasselblad, but I guess that markets may be different. I also have the impression that Hasselblad keeps a bit lower prices and has some very nice technology regarding focusing, multishot, T&S solutions and lens program.
Best regards
Erik
I think Phase are seeing significant return on investment with their solutions for industrial users, and institutions with document capture needs who appreciate the reliable robust backs, excellent files and very good software.
Handheld photography is taking the backseat: It seems they have devoted their finite resources for instance to a body that "was designed from the ground up exclusively for aerial photography (https://digitaltransitions.com/pdf/IXABrochure.pdf)."
http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/iXR.aspx
http://www.aerial-survey-base.com/blog/phaseone-ixa-aerial-survey-camera-system-family/
I guess when Hassy or Leica finally chew into their prosumer business Phase will bring out a new toy, or just turn into a defense contractor. Or maybe they will retain the commercial photography as a lucrative mark-down outlet for sensors that do not meet the stringent homogeneity criteria imperative for remote-sensing applications and photogrammetry.
At this point I'm afraid to say that the Leica S, a modern design for handheld use by individual photographers, almost looks like a value proposition.
Of course, if we get to see a new Phase handheld body soon that is not a simple Phamiya refresh, that would be delightful, but I believe in what I see, and for now that is a robust innovative and integrated aerial photography solution :)
Edmund
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Yet, with Hass H and Mamyia 645 being the only alternatives around… it's no surprise why Contax S/H prices are high… It seems that demand keeps them high… OTOH, Rollei 6xxx could be an alternative, but "good luck" in finding an MFDB for it and if you do, "good luck" in being able to de-touch it and fit it on a view camera or a Fuji GX680.
Hass and Mamiya aren't the only options… Don't forget the Rolleflex Hy6 and Hy6 Mod2 cameras are available new with warranty and a viable option for film or digital backs. The 6008AF is very inexpensive new - and you can find digital backs for these on the second hand market. You can fit the Rollei 6000 series digital backs to the X-Act2 for view camera options via the pan shot adapter. If you buy a CF or Ixpress, or Sinar back you can just change adapter plates to mount it on other cameras. Same for the Hy6 - you can actually fit the Hy6 to any LF camera that takes graflok style film backs with the Leaf adapter plate or you can buy a sliding adapter from a variety of sources including Kapture group and Rolleiflex/DHW to mount the Hy6 to a variety of view cameras.
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I can ensure you, there are more pros using Leica S than 60 or 80mp backs… Never the less, as I said before, most pros dot use either, they mostly use much older 39 or 33 or 22 backs and some are wise enough to have invested on multishot versions of the same backs while they could.
When making definitive statements like this, I would like to see some citations to back it up. Else, it's as good as me saying "I can ensure you, more human beings now live on Mars than Earth".
Anecdotally, I know a few dozen pros who are using MF; some lower MP backs, some higher MP, but not a single one is using an S2.
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When making definitive statements like this, I would like to see some citations to back it up. Else, it's as good as me saying "I can ensure you, more human beings now live on Mars than Earth".
Anecdotally, I know a few dozen pros who are using MF; some lower MP backs, some higher MP, but not a single one is using an S2.
We are not going to argue on something that there are no evidence around now, are we? …everyone talks out of his experience in such a matter… If mine is different than yours, it shouldn't be a base for an argument. I know some pros (being one myself) that have "jumped" to Leica from Hassy and I know more that are considering it, I also know people that own Contax who now consider it. Those that don't consider it, are the ones that own MS backs (and use them as such)… as I do.
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Hass and Mamiya aren't the only options… Don't forget the Rolleflex Hy6 and Hy6 Mod2 cameras are available new with warranty and a viable option for film or digital backs. The 6008AF is very inexpensive new - and you can find digital backs for these on the second hand market. You can fit the Rollei 6000 series digital backs to the X-Act2 for view camera options via the pan shot adapter. If you buy a CF or Ixpress, or Sinar back you can just change adapter plates to mount it on other cameras. Same for the Hy6 - you can actually fit the Hy6 to any LF camera that takes graflok style film backs with the Leaf adapter plate or you can buy a sliding adapter from a variety of sources including Kapture group and Rolleiflex/DHW to mount the Hy6 to a variety of view cameras.
But isn't the price of the S/H market a reflection of the demand Eric? Surely the Rollei platform (both of the HY6 and of the 6xxx series) is great for digital MF, it can support all backs with interchangeable plates (Sinar, CFs and impress - but not P1), it can do great MS and the lenses are su-pe-rb… But it seems to me that the (now discontinued) adapters are hard to find and there is no support from P1 (which are the most widely spread MFDBs)… Surely Contax is much more well supported both in the S/H or the new back market. A friend of mine (a pro) was looking to find a digital solution for his 6008i, but he found out that he had to compromise with the (few) offerings and that those offerings where overpriced, he ended up selling his 6008 (for peanuts) and was forced to buy M645 and a Fugi gx680 (he needed to sync flash at at least 1/250) and he also retired his view camera due to the Fuji (I've done the same - retired my P2 for a GX680/Contax fit). Is it his GX680 as good or as accurate as his view camera? …no it isn't, but it's good enough with the 49x37 image area he uses (same as mine in size) and one can do multishot with it by only buying a cable (my case not his), while he would have to invest a fortune on new lenses and shutters to turn his view camera into "tethered (or multishot) capable". He also chose Hass-v lenses to use on his Mamiya via an adapter…
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We are not going to argue on something that there are no evidence around now, are we? …everyone talks out of his experience in such a matter… If mine is different than yours, it shouldn't be a base for an argument. I know some pros (being one myself) that have "jumped" to Leica from Hassy and I know more that are considering it, I also know people that own Contax who now consider it. Those that don't consider it, are the ones that own MS backs (and use them as such)… as I do.
Then phrase it thusly.
Your posts made it sound that your anecdotal evidence is the actual situation worldwide, without a shadow of a doubt.
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I have only ever seen photographs of an S2 never one in the flesh.
With the photoshop trickery available I expect the camera doesn't actually exist.
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Then phrase it thusly.
Your posts made it sound that your anecdotal evidence is the actual situation worldwide, without a shadow of a doubt.
The reasoning behind my posts, is that with the Leica mount being clearly designed to attract users of other MF cameras into the firm via adapters that make their lenses fully compatible, it makes perfect sense for a pro to consider investing on a Leica instead of a new back and (if he also uses a camera with movements) to keep his older back and continue to use it on the view camera… I also know many pros that choose D800E/5dmkiii to use instead of MF equipment in their studios or for fashion work and knew some more in the past that used 5Dmkii, …surely, you don't expect one to provide proof for that also. Pros don't base their choices on pixel peeping when they choose equipment, they choose what can serve the task 100% and know that the outcome depends on their pro skills.
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Depends which system you're comparing to I guess. The p40+ is the closest generationally and spec wise and thousands of dollars less expensive (with a body) than even the older S2.
Thousands Less? With which Phamiya body?
Anyway, not to knock your product but there is a heck of a difference shooting with a Leica S(2) and a Mamiya 645. Granted Phase tethers better but it won't autofocus Contax, or Hasselblad H lenses, the Leica has great autofocus and let's face it, it's a Leica.
From the dealers I've spoken to that sell multiple brands, Phase, Leaf, Leica, Pentax and Hasselblad, I don't hear anything bad about the Leica.
The Leica, if bought new also comes with a 3 year warranty and i think the latest Kodak sensor that the blad, pentax and Leica uses is the best sensor produced (and probably Kodak's last).
IMO
BC
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The reasoning behind my posts, is that with the Leica mount being clearly designed to attract users of other MF cameras into the firm via adapters that make their lenses fully compatible, it makes perfect sense for a pro to consider investing on a Leica instead of a new back and (if he also uses a camera with movements) to keep his older back and continue to use it on the view camera… I also know many pros that choose D800E/5dmkiii to use instead of MF equipment in their studios or for fashion work and knew some more in the past that used 5Dmkii, …surely, you don't expect one to provide proof for that also. Pros don't base their choices on pixel peeping when they choose equipment, they choose what can serve the task 100% and know that the outcome depends on their pro skills.
Sigh.
Pros use 35mm. Pros use M43. Pros use MFDB. Pros use whatever they want. None of this is up for contention.
But it is a very different thing to make an axiomatic statement such as "more pros use the S2 than any high MP back". Something like that requires a citation to be taken seriously.
I sincerely hope you understand the difference, sir.
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This (http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcbabej/2013/05/08/how-leica-camera-is-reinventing-the-medium-format-market-on-its-own-terms/2/) is the original interview (on Forbes) where Leica announced that they "think the core medium format market is roughly 6000 units per year – worldwide, for all brands. We are not yet the market leader (I estimate Phase One to have 40-45% market share), but we already have 20% share". All subsequent reports refer to that single original source.
If the source is to be believed (but we should not the use of the weasel words "core market"), 20% of MF pro photographers use a Leica S and the others use another brand. Therefore, the majority (80%...) does not use Leica.
Now, the claim was "more pros use the S2 than any high MP back". It depends on what is a "high MP back" and how you count them. If there are 2000 S2 around and only 1000 IQ180, 1000 IQ280, 1000 IQ160 and 1000 IQ260, both sentences can be true because they are misleading.
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If the source is to be believed (but we should not the use of the weasel words "core market"), 20% of MF pro photographers use a Leica S and the others use another brand. Therefore, the majority (80%...) does not use Leica.
I don't think you can avoid the "weasel words" I have no figures to prove it but the " amateur" market is a proportion of that core. You can't extrapolate that market share to pros. directly. I suspect and may be wrong that perhaps more amateurs have bought into the Leica than into Phase etc. It is the form factor they are familiar with,the Hasselblad amateurs are more likely to be Phase as they are familiar with changing backs, pure conjecture and the definition of amateur and pro come to that is flexible.
I read 'core market' as sales of new gear not S/H or upgrade swops but again we have no sound definition of "core".
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I guess it all depends on how one values things… I mean if Leica is a newcomer and is already dominant of 20% of the sales and rising (which they claim they do), it does make them successful, clearly, they wouldn't invest on Sinar (the least market share out of all MF makers of the past and a company with known financial problems ;)) if they wouldn't think that this will help them to advance (and profit) further. OTOH, none knows what (out of the MF market that has been the existing base over the last 12 years) is or has been "pro-use" and what is the balance with respect to "enthusiast" use… Neither there are such figures available for Leica new sales or for other makers (again) new sales…. It only seems, that they are doing very well indeed if they have "20% of the market and rising" and if they "trust" their success so much as to invest on a company that has shrunk considerably the past 6 years, which (if they didn't do well) could be a great risk considering the economic environment.
It only looks "very sensible indeed" for anyone that owns older MF equipment and wishes to bring it up to date (especially those that feel their camera bodies "tiered"), since digital MFDBs have advanced less on IQ than they have on resolution (pixel count) as such - which market seems to care less - especially if one keeps all his lenses and protects his past investment the best he can. ::)
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...since digital MFDBs have advanced less on IQ than they have on resolution (pixel count) as such - which market seems to care less - especially if one keeps all his lenses and protects his past investment the best he can. ::)
I'm very curious... have you actually personally shot with an IQ280 or IQ260 processed in Capture One v7? If not, what backs are you making this comparison based off of that you have personally taken real world shots with?
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I don't think you can avoid the "weasel words" I have no figures to prove it but the " amateur" market is a proportion of that core. You can't extrapolate that market share to pros.
The line between "pro" and "amateur" is fuzzy, so a definition will be difficult but I would think that "Core market" in that context refers to "pro photographers and amateurs with similar needs" and excludes the luxury / collector market (e.g. Hasselblad Ferrari edition) and technical uses (for example scientific and aerial photography).
Actually, aerial photography appears to be a relatively big market for medium format. Hasselblad and Phase one have a special line for that use.
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I'm very curious... have you actually personally shot with an IQ280 or IQ260 processed in Capture One v7? If not, what backs are you making this comparison based off of that you have personally taken real world shots with?
Hi Doug, I've used P25+ on Contax and Hass H, P45+ on Mamyia and Hass H, Leaf aptus 5ii & 7ii on Mamyia, Sinar e-motion22 on Contax and HY-6, Sinar e-motion75LV on HY-6, Sinar 75H on Hass H and Sinar P3 (both in single shot and multishot), Sinar 54m on Contax, Hass H and Sinar P3 and the highest resolution I'm experienced with, is P65+ on Mamyia (rented that for a week). Also, I've used various Hass H, up to H3Dii-39ms. I used to own a couple of the above, but finally settled for an Imacon 528c which I have no intention to replace since most of its use is on 16x MS mode where the image quality easily exceeds anything else. Out of all the above and judging from single shot only, I think they were all close. My preference (for single shot) would be for the look of Emotion 75LV used with Shneiders on HY-6 (or 6xxx of course) or P25+ on Contax, but this is me… I don't think there is MF I don't like, mind you that I'm not exactly the kind of man that considers resolution to be of importance when it comes down to image quality, nor I do much of pixel peeping when using equipment to compare it, my preferences are the ones that suit my taste best when it comes down to printing photographs which I do with my own equipment (epson 9900) in my own studio. Also mind you that I am among those who find that the Kodak "fat pixel" sensors had some "unique magic" in their look… other than that, I prefer the Dalsa 33mp chip over the Kodak 39 one or the other Dalsa I've tried, I think Dalsa has great colour, but the 33mp has even better than the rest. I also use Nikon D4 and D800E DSLRs but this is mainly with projects that require higher Iso.
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Hi Doug, I've used P25+ on Contax and Hass H, P45+ on Mamyia and Hass H, Leaf aptus 5ii & 7ii on Mamyia, Sinar e-motion22 on Contax and HY-6, Sinar e-motion75LV on HY-6, Sinar 75H on Hass H and Sinar P3 (both in single shot and multishot), Sinar 54m on Contax, Hass H and Sinar P3 and the highest resolution I'm experienced with, is P65+ on Mamyia (rented that for a week).
So the most recent Phase/Leaf solution you've tried was made in 2008.
Can I also assume that was in the days of Capture One v6?
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So the most recent Phase/Leaf solution you've tried was made in 2008.
Can I also assume that was in the days of Capture One v6?
No, I actually first tried it at a conference on summer 2009 where Paul H. (I believe you know who I'm talking about) also presented the first version of v7… then I rented it during 2011 to try it on a painting reproduction project I was doing in my studio, I then decided to invest on a S/H multishot back to replace the Sinarback I used to own at the days. Great back the P65+ I must say, but I still think that the 33mp Dalsa sensor has even better colour performance, its DR is as good and detail is more than anyone can ask for without ever "stretching" lenses. Never the less, more than all MF sensors, I prefer that "different" punchier - a bit over saturated look (even if colours are not as natural as Dalsa) and mid tone contrast that the old 22mp Kodak backs had, I happened to have tried P25+ and P45+ together and although the two sensors had a very similar presentation (different to Dalsa), I would vote for P25+ to have that extra "something" that could remind of negative film - only better… I guess it all comes down to personal taste and aesthetics, but I bet you've heart that nostalgic "fat pixel magic" before from some other of your customers. Clearly I believe that my D800E is much worst (and the more I use it the more my opinion enhances) than any back of 36x48 size and 22mp of resolution or more, no matter how old the back might be.