Sony A7R, intersting comaprision ...

[bcooter]

Cmon Dave, your taking all the fun out of lithium.

BC

[Telecaster]

Lithium-Niobate, man. Get it right or risk the Wrath.

Personally I recommend tequila therapy. Works for Carrie Mathison (Homeland)!

-Dave-

[synn]

I for one, am glad I didn't pick up horse racing as a career.
Studying the genetic structure of a horse wouldá made my head explode.

[eronald]

Cmon Dave, your taking all the fun out of lithium.

BC

As Ulam and Teller demonstrated graphically,lithium quite  substantially adds to the fun

The link points to some test shots of one of the uses of Lithium. I am sure that if you read the article carefully you can make up your own jokes about  filters being used to create this effect.

Incredible what you can find on Wikipedia.

I had quite a lot of Rum tonight. Nice Rum, fights my bad cold

Edmund

[Fine_Art]

Hi,

As has been explained several times, silicon based sensor arrays are monochrome, and have a roughly panchromatic spectral sensitivity. They are also relatively sensitive to Near Infra-Red light, but that's filtered out.

The color response of silicon based sensor arrays, regardless whether built as CCD or as CMOS device, is determined by the Bayer CFA filter characteristics. Some manufacturers choose to have clearly separated color channels with little overlap, others sacrifice color separation to gain a little sensitivity with les dense and more overlapping color channels.

Then comes the profiling. Now all bets are off in how colors will be rendered, even SOOC. Same file, different Raw converters, different colors. That's not because the sensor suddenly switched form CCD to CMOS, that's ludicrous. Color is created as it is demosaiced and profile converted.

What many do not seem to grasp is that the CCD versus CMOS technologies have other differences that explain why they are predominantly used in certain devices. Traditional CMOS technology is e.g. less suited for large surface sensor arrays where the angle of incident light can vary a lot, e.g. due to Tilt/Shift movements, or traditional lens designs where the exit pupil is relatively close to the sensor array.

That also explains why AA-filters and micro-lenses are rarely used in such camera backs, not because CCD does not need it, they both do, but it may cause other bigger issues than they solve for a particular use. Of course, technology has not stood still, and we'll see new improved designs as time goes by, but the color rendering it has virtually nothing to do with silicon sensor fabrication technology.

Calling the very technology that allows to make technically better images mumbo jumbo is silly, to say the least.

Cheers,
Bart

At least in the Sony architecture there was another difference between CCD and CMOS. Their CCD used to use column D/A conversion. Their CMOS did at the pixel D/A conversion. My opinion used to be that the level of precision in calibrating the output from a known red, blue, green in the factory would be much higher with an entire column of data vs 1 pixel. In the last few generations of CMOS the QC is high enough that any such advantage is gone.

The CCD Sony A350 had color tonality superior to their CMOC cameras of the same generation. It was obvious looking at the files. Mind you this was only at ISO100. At 200 it became a level playing field. Above that the A350 started to suck very quickly. Even looking at shots side by side with my later generation A55v, at the pixel level, the A350 shots are superior in color. There is a delicate precision in the color that looks just right. The A55 is far superior as an action/ wildlife camera. However, when you did get the shot with the A350 I would say the color is as good as the D600. Of course it is just an ISO100 14MP camera so it is very limited.

[BJL]

At least in the Sony architecture there was another difference between CCD and CMOS. Their CCD used to use column D/A conversion. Their CMOS did at the pixel D/A conversion.

Actually, all CCD use off-board ADC's, just a few of them handling all photo-sites, whereas Sony's EXMOR active pixel CMOS sensors have an ADC at the bottom of each column. But I see you point that there is more room for non-uniformity in the column-parallel ADC approach. Active pixel CMOS sensors also amplify the signal from each photo-site in its transfer down the column, another potential source of non-uniformity. I recall that there used to be signs of non-uniformity in the output of earlier CMOS sensors, but AFAIK this problem has been solved in the best recent sensors.

On the other hand, Canon still uses off-chip ADCs with its CMOS sensors, and Panasonic has used both approaches in different active pixel CMOS sensors, so this is not a systematic "CCD vs active pixel CMOS sensor" sensor thing.

[AreBee]

Vladimirovich,

typically demosaick is the same, camera color profile is different... developers probably (I allege) rarely revisit the color profiles created long time ago for old cameras to update them for probably better approaches that they might be using for new cameras, more so that that might not be willing to redo old profiles to preserve some compatibility and it rarely makes any sense for them to add new profiles for cameras released 5-10-15+ yearas ago

This is something I have wondered about previously, because if camera manufacturers do update profiles for their software then our library of photos is evolving without our knowledge!

Can anyone confirm if Vladimirovich's assumption above is correct: that the colour profile for a given camera is not revised in time by the manufacturer when the photographer occasionally updates their camera software?

[fredjeang2]

My god!

What is happening guys ??

This thread could have easily being the pretext of another war versuses like in the good old days with its cortege of insults, acusations,
semantic interpretations, bombings, blind criticism and harsh lenguaje...

but no...all quiet and politicaly correct.

Weired, very weired...is it Christmas depre?
Or the New-age good vibes love chains?

[Rob C]

My god!

What is happening guys ??

This thread could have easily being the pretext of another war versuses like in the good old days with its cortege of insults, acusations,
semantic interpretations, bombings, blind criticism and harsh lenguaje...

but no...all quiet and politicaly correct.

Weired, very weired...is it Christmas depre?
Or the New-age good vibes love chains?

Mother's little helpers. Almost everybody's on them now. The medical profession has been ordered to hand them out to all and sundry in order to keep the civilians at peace until the banks have stolen all of the money and the directors have flown to their new life on the Moon.

Why else do you think the Chinese are plotting to go there too?

Inside Job, I repeat my suggestion of before: watch it if you can - it's on DVD.

Rob C

[MrSmith]

The right hemisphere of my brain is aching, maybe I need some of that lithium.
Either that or need to photograph a brick wall or something.

[ErikKaffehr]

A conflict between scientists and artist?

Erik

My god!

What is happening guys ??

This thread could have easily being the pretext of another war versuses like in the good old days with its cortege of insults, acusations,
semantic interpretations, bombings, blind criticism and harsh lenguaje...

but no...all quiet and politicaly correct.

Weired, very weired...is it Christmas depre?
Or the New-age good vibes love chains?

[fredjeang2]

A conflict between scientists and artist?

Erik

Scientists and artists
Expensive and cheap
Big format and small format
Amateurs and profesionals
Passion and reason
unibrand and Brand-agnostism

and many more potential wars I guess I forgot.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I see your point.

Personally, I am a bit like Mr. Spock. If it is not logical it makes no sense to me. If I am given an explanation, I may feel it is worth discussing if it holds. If it does, just fine, if it does not, there is disagreement. No reason not to be polite.

Best regards
Erik

Scientists and artists
Expensive and cheap
Big format and small format
Amateurs and profesionals
Passion and reason
unibrand and Brand-agnostism

and many more potential wars I guess I forgot.

[fredjeang2]

Hi,

I see your point.

Personally, I am a bit like Mr. Spock. If it is not logical it makes no sense to me. If I am given an explanation, I may feel it is worth discussing if it holds. If it does, just fine, if it does not, there is disagreement. No reason not to be polite.

Best regards
Erik

You know Erik, I think one of the biggest mistake of human history has been to completly separate science from art. It was absolutly necessary at one point because science needed to free itself from superstition. But during a short period of time, both disciplines were combined in such a balanced way that it produced people like Leonardo D.V. His genius resided IMO in the fact that in him, both disciplines were mastered and source of inspiration.
I am in favor of mergin.

[TMARK]

This is racist and homophobic!

My god!

What is happening guys ??

This thread could have easily being the pretext of another war versuses like in the good old days with its cortege of insults, acusations,
semantic interpretations, bombings, blind criticism and harsh lenguaje...

but no...all quiet and politicaly correct.

Weired, very weired...is it Christmas depre?
Or the New-age good vibes love chains?

[fredjeang2]

This is racist and homophobic!

Hahaha...that's a good one!

Hey, nice to see you again.

[Telecaster]

As Ulam and Teller demonstrated graphically, lithium quite substantially adds to the fun

Great link, thanks for that! Romeo "shrimp" device indeed...

-Dave-

[Telecaster]

You know Erik, I think one of the biggest mistake of human history has been to completly separate science from art. It was absolutly necessary at one point because science needed to free itself from superstition. But during a short period of time, both disciplines were combined in such a balanced way that it produced people like Leonardo D.V. His genius resided IMO in the fact that in him, both disciplines were mastered and source of inspiration.
I am in favor of mergin.

IMO this hasn't been a deliberate separation, nor is it a thoroughly complete one, but is rather a consequence of our vastly increased body of knowledge & understanding...and thus a need to specialize. A modern-day Leonardo would be compelled to focus on one of his many talents in order to master it. At the expense of the others, yes, but also likely to the benefit of the one. But I do sympathize with the desire—need even—for a simultaneous tiny detail perception and Big Picture perspective.

-Dave-

[bcooter]

IMO this hasn't been a deliberate separation, nor is it a thoroughly complete one, but is rather a consequence of our vastly increased body of knowledge & understanding...and thus a need to specialize. A modern-day Leonardo would be compelled to focus on one of his many talents in order to master it. At the expense of the others, yes, but also likely to the benefit of the one. But I do sympathize with the desire—need even—for a simultaneous tiny detail perception and Big Picture perspective.

-Dave-

i'm caught between buying an A7 and or A7r and and A moiunt lens set vs a Leica S2.  (I know different animals all together), except the Sony I'd use for stills not video and the Leica I'd use for stills since it doesn't shoot video.

The science tells me that the Sony is superior, the real world samples, build quality, tactile feel tells me to buy the Leica and most samples I've seen from the Leica are pretty, the Sony not so.

End of the day, they both costs me the same, because with the Sony I'm into a new lens set and their Zeiss A mounts aren't cheap.  With the Leica they take my contax lens set and actually focus faster than on a contax.

Does it matter?   yea to me.  Now the real important question is does anybody have a chart they'd like to share.  No photos please, I'm into charts now and of course lithium.

IMO

BC

[fredjeang2]

 No photos please, I'm into charts now and of course lithium.

Haha...but charts by Cooter will be sexy charts.

PS: talking about lithium, I hope nobody wears one of those horror lithium oversized mens watch they
produce now. Be cool and elegant, gift yourself a mechanical watch.